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Charlotte Katakuri vs Kaname Tosen | Bleach vs One Piece | 10-1-0 (GRACE)
- Thread starter Kachon123
- Start date
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well if there's no layers whatsoever then Tosen just 1 shots cuz soul manip in bleach IS layered
still voting Tosen
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Their ability gets layered when infused with haki.
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- Thread starter
- #44
Not to beat a dead horse, but this is a common misconception. Just like @MonkeyOfLife said, the reason why Haki layers are applied to resistances and abilities is because Haki is often infused into abilities to grant them potency. For example, Vice Admiral Bluegrass is able to infuse her Ride Ride Fruit's ability with Haki in order to overpower Vegapunk's authority hierarchy so that she could control them herself. Bluegrass wasn't overpowering Haki with her own Haki in this scene, she was overpowering Vegapunk's technology-based mind hax by infusing her Devil Fruit with with her Haki potency.
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I meant this literally btw, so put me on Kurikata side.
Edit: ok jokes asides, I do read the whole argument
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AP
LS
Othere
To be honest with Tosen, the only real thing he has going for him is Soul Manipulation and durability negating attacks because of that. Looking at the Haki Page, I see no indication that Soul Manipulation is a resistance that anyone has. Now there are Devil Fruit that have that power like with Big Mom and Brook. The issue with that though, is that you don't use Haki to negate Big Mom's powers, but its fear. Just not being afraid of Big Mom is enough to negate her soul manipulation when it's implied it would otherwise work. Most of Tosen's other powers (besides Bankai) Charlotte resists.
Having said that, in most situations I view Tosen as having a good chance at being goo'ed and then just taking the loss from there. But Tosen also knows this.
It's mostly about if Tosen can either hit Charlotte directly with a move that ignores his durability or gets time to trigger his Bankai and then Bleed Charlotte from there. Charlotte on the other hand just needs to goo Tosen once or grab him like Kenpachi did and the fight is over from there.
I guess with prior knowledge, Tosen is likely to hit Charlotte before the Mochi gets him. I don't see Charlotte as having the resistance needed to survive this attack from Tosen, which has a good chance at killing him from just that. If that initial attack fails, then the match will swing in Charlotte's favor due to having better tools for this fight (other than lacking aerial movement).
So Tosen for now imo
- Charlotte will always be using Haki if his stamina allows for it, which is 17.25 Teratons
- Tosen is currently scaled to 38.94 Teratons
LS
- Charlotte can lift over 90 Gigatons and over 167 Teratons with Mochi
- Tosen can lift 167 Kilotons
Othere
To be honest with Tosen, the only real thing he has going for him is Soul Manipulation and durability negating attacks because of that. Looking at the Haki Page, I see no indication that Soul Manipulation is a resistance that anyone has. Now there are Devil Fruit that have that power like with Big Mom and Brook. The issue with that though, is that you don't use Haki to negate Big Mom's powers, but its fear. Just not being afraid of Big Mom is enough to negate her soul manipulation when it's implied it would otherwise work. Most of Tosen's other powers (besides Bankai) Charlotte resists.
Having said that, in most situations I view Tosen as having a good chance at being goo'ed and then just taking the loss from there. But Tosen also knows this.
It's mostly about if Tosen can either hit Charlotte directly with a move that ignores his durability or gets time to trigger his Bankai and then Bleed Charlotte from there. Charlotte on the other hand just needs to goo Tosen once or grab him like Kenpachi did and the fight is over from there.
I guess with prior knowledge, Tosen is likely to hit Charlotte before the Mochi gets him. I don't see Charlotte as having the resistance needed to survive this attack from Tosen, which has a good chance at killing him from just that. If that initial attack fails, then the match will swing in Charlotte's favor due to having better tools for this fight (other than lacking aerial movement).
So Tosen for now imo
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Nothing seriously, but seeing someone calling Katakuri as "Charlotte" is just funny to me, lmao. It makes him sounds cute.
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- Thread starter
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Brook who can cut souls in half couldn't scratch Big Mom because of her passive Haki defense.
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Can Brook use his power to bypass durability like Bleach characters? If he can then yes, that is a valid defense. If his attack strictly works on ghosts and nothing else, then it would not fall under this afaik.
If it does, then Tosen realistically has viable win-cons here.
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- #51
It should. His powers work by coating his sword with his soul...
...which is the same technique he uses when playing music to affect the souls of living beings
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A bit of a roundabout there, but it seems like a Soul Attack. So I can get behind Charlotte not being one-shot by Tosen. So, I'll change my vote. Tosen really doesn't have a lot of viable win conditions with the LS difference present here.
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I'm being business professionalHis name is Katakuri
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No it doesnt
Third scan leads to the same thing as the 2nd (is that how it should be?) but the first one says her DF turns things into vehicles, where does it mention mind control? Also im not sure replacing one mind control with another is considered layered, but even if this was valid, it still shouldn't extend to anything and everything Haki can possibly resist tho, or more so, why would Haki layers (gained from haki overcoming haki) extend into abilities themselves getting layered, and characters gaining layered resistances from that, those are not related. Yes, they can infuse their abilities with Haki in order to overcome Haki, and maybe Haki can allow to overcome some resistances, but that still would not suddenly grant layers for specific abilities unless they're shown. The layering is being build on haki - haki.
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Fixed.
When she rides a living being, she controls their will and mind. For example, the ability doesn't just allow her to make the person carry her around. It allows her to force them use their powers such as the Seabeast Weapon's mouth lasers.
This isn't true. I literally just showed you Bluegrass infusing her ability with Haki to overcome Vegapunk's Pacifista mind control. Vegapunk is the second highest on the authority hierarchy, meaning those below him (Sentomaru and whoever holds the chip) are incapable of overriding him. Bluegrass' Devil Fruit was able to do so because her Haki was infused into it.
Incon or are you just not voting?
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...
Yes it does...
Layering is the ability to break through resistances to one's ability/hax. Successfully using an ability against a resistant character means that the ability is "layered." Further, resisting a layered ability is an indication of layered resistance, so on and so forth. An ability becoming stronger does not automatically mean it is layered unless it is shown to overcome a resistance. Crucially this is not the same as resistance negation, which overcomes resistance via a special additional ability rather than the hax itself being more powerful.
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yeah so, nothing here disproves my point, just saying...
Yes it does...
Layering is the ability to break through resistances to one's ability/hax. Successfully using an ability against a resistant character means that the ability is "layered." Further, resisting a layered ability is an indication of layered resistance, so on and so forth. An ability becoming stronger does not automatically mean it is layered unless it is shown to overcome a resistance. Crucially this is not the same as resistance negation, which overcomes resistance via a special additional ability rather than the hax itself being more powerful.
Ig I'll drop the argument if it's accepted this way
And I meant that I'm not voting
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So haki can be infused with the ability… the same ability now is capable of overcoming your resistance… and that’s not a layer?
It seems you might be confusing the abilities of haki itself with the layering of haki to abilities
It wouldn't be a layer if haki didn’t make abilities “stronger” or merge with it… but it does and when that happens, the resistances of characters gets overpowered (which is not inherently based on the potency of the hax increasing)
Armament haki is the will of fighting, and that addition with the ability is what breaks your resistance as it’s combines with abilities to make it a layered ability
If you have 2 fire users…
1 attacks the other fire user and it doesn’t do burning damage
1 then adds haki to the ability and starts burning the other fire user… that would make it a layered version of the ability from before
That’s what haki does to abilities… (nothing to do with haki vs haki) but then the other fire user that got burned learns haki and uses it with his ability, and is now capable of overcoming the other person’s abilities. That’s 2 layers for the ability/hax and not just the haki
1 to 1 to the layering description for abilities. Hopefully you understood, not gonna explain it anymore then I already have
(Also even if you assume haki doesn't combine with abilities and such, Haki getting layered would still make the resistances of haki layered)
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