Honkai Impact 3rd - Infinite Speed Arguments (v2)

[PlungingThroughTime]

This CRT will go over several infinite speed arguments for Hi3, all that's required is for one to pass. I'll list these in order from weakest to strongest. Arguments will be separated by horizontal lines.

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Firstly, the Theatre is accepted as infinite. Under this CRT it's accepted the Herrscher of Domination can flip the infinite realm with its strings. This would be infinite speed, as they're able to rotate an infinite realm. Many points within this infinite realm (imagine coordinate (infinity+2, 0) would travel 180 degrees (this is how much the realm is flipped) to (-infinity-2, 0) meaning their points cross an infinite distance, and the Herrscher of Domination has enough speed to force the realm to do this.

Anyone who chainscales to the Herrscher of Domination and above would scale to infinite speed.

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Secondly, under this CRT (Establishing the Theatre of Domination as L1-C) Bronya destroying it is an infinite speed feat, as she destroys an infinite area with one attack.

No, this is not range. The realm begins to shake as the Star of Eden destroys it, signalling the entire attack doesn't happen / spread out at once. (If it was then the characters in these scans would be engulfed by the Star of Eden's 0th Power.)

Anyone who chainscales to Bronya + SoE would scale to infinite speed. This is anyone stronger than Rita Rossweisse with the Astral Harness, as she survives the attack.

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Thirdly, it's stated that the Spiritual Adam a conglomeration of dreamlands, is a singularity. One similar to a black hole. Any singularity is simply a point of infinite density. This means that the spacetime curvature of the space is curved infinitely, simply meaning you can't escape, like a black hole. The Spiritual Adam 'is a singularity' and 'is similar to a black hole.'

It's specific here that the conglomeration acts like a singularity, not a single dream. Tesla does specify conglomeration.

Point being the Spiritual Adam is compared technologically to the singularity of a black hole so the idea anything in its 'membrane' is trapped in a singularity should stand.

Now, proving something moves fast enough to leave this Singularity. This requires proving the locations of the characters at the time of the feat.

Theresa Apocalypse has an ability to devour dreams, enabling her to leave the Spiritual Adam through hax. She leaves the Singularity seen with this ability.
Later, Theresa is seen holding the Shadow of Finality. Seele is defending her while holding the Shadow of Finality, Seele is then seperated and Hare states 'Do you want to go back into the Dreamland to take a look?' - Simply put, neither Theresa, Seele or Hare are in the Spiritual Adam at this point in time.

The Herrscher of Sentience, Durandal and Fu Hua are fighting Kevin Kaslana in the Spiritual Adam. (Durandal and Fu Hua join the fight later on) - They seize the 'Shadow of Finality' from Kevin by cutting his shadow.
The Herrscher of Sentience, Fu Hua and the 'Shadow of Finality' are in the Spiritual Adam.

This is all relevant as the Herrscher of Sentience physically throws the Shadow of Finality to Theresa. It travelled out of the Spiritual Adam, which acts like a Singularity. (It rises out of the void as it is physically thrown).
This means functionally she'd have to throw the 'Shadow of Finality' out of the Spiritual Adam, like a projectile. This would require infinite speed to succeed, which it does.
(The Herrscher of Sentience cannot teleport in worlds that are not dreamscapes, so this can't be teleportation).

Everyone who scales to this would be the Herrscher of Sentience or stronger, like HoV from the Herrscher of Sentience arc, the Herrscher of Thunder, etc.

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Not sure about how HSR would chainscale to the above. Everyone here is stronger than Welt Yang, but this does make Welt's own 2-A feat with Zephyro (previously counted as range) FAR more likely to be infinite speed. Irontomb's nuke also counts for infinite speed, and if Point 2 is accepted, it adds further precedent for the Star of Eden wielders being able to achieve infinite speed feats with Zeroth power (and it not being range).

I think it'd be wise to re-assess Welt and Zephyro's infinite speed scaling here too.
'The black and the white hole will devour each other at the end of that script, rupturing the cosmos.'

Anyone stronger than Herrscher of Thunder, Rimestar or Durandal would scale to this.

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Please when agreeing / disagreeing, state which arguments you agree or disagree with. All of these arguments have different chainscaling so this is important.

Agree: Reiner04 (Assuming all 4, since any specific one was not specified)

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Not sure about how HSR would chainscale to this. Everyone here is stronger than Welt Yang.

Also include Welt vs Zephyro clash in this CRT for this since it has a white flash effect similar to Bronya destroying the theater

That at the very least Scales to Zephyro himself cause UES.
Anyone else yeah idk who in HSR chainscales

Otherwise I agree with this thread cause I looked over all this already

 

[Mbpoops]

agree. i will not be stating what parts i agree with.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Also include Welt vs Zephyro clash in this CRT for this since it has a white flash effect similar to Bronya destroying the theater

Yeah done.

 

[Mbpoops]

I think it'd be wise to re-assess Welt and Zephyro's infinite speed scaling here too.
'The black and the white hole will devour each other at the end of that script, rupturing the cosmos.'

this would scale back to the Herrscher of stars and anyone post chapter 15 (who is comparable to/stronger than dudu and HoT mei at that time) will scale from this.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Seen + agree

 

[KingOfDarknessBelow]

Agree with all three, as for Welt and Zephyro part idk

 

[Reiner04]

This is fine.

 

[ItsMeat]

Not knowledgeable on the verse and hate to say it, but yeah, disagree, at least for now. Please forgive me, @Zanesucksatlife @Mbpoops I am commiting a sin

Spoiler: First argument

This argument clearly doesn't work due to obvious reasons. Unless the realm flipped with infinite speed in the center as well, the speed of the margins doesn't matter. This is how maths and physics work, the longer the radius, the more distance a point on the circle will travel when rotating the circle. Flipping the realm would be an 180° move indeed, so every point inside the realm would travel pi × the distance from the center by default. A coin spinning at the same speed would only travel like pi×1 cm depending on its radius.

This could only be a ls feat at best.

Spoiler: Second argument

I also disagree with this one as well, although the reasoning isn't as bad as the previous one. The shaking came before the obliteration, meaning it would be faster than something moving at infinite speed, basically having infinite speed as well. Characters perceiving it worry about the time left to do an action that requires moving over a finite distance. Also, they seemed to be at a finite distance from Bronya at the moment she started destroying the realm. Anything moving at infinite speed would have reached them instantly. Which the attack didn't.

Ig I could see the attack accelerating til it reaches infinite speed or smth, but this still makes almost any form of chainscaling from it unusable.

Spoiler: Third argument

Not sure on this point, but iirc singularities cannot be escaped from merely with infinite speed, because all physical paths also loop inward. Also, sound would never reach outside the singularity, so saying "Catch" is pointless.

I am open to have my mind changed tho

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Second argument:
I also disagree with this one as well, although the reasoning isn't as bad as the previous one. The shaking came before the obliteration, meaning it would be faster than something moving at infinite speed, basically having infinite speed as well. Characters perceiving it worry about the time left to do an action that requires moving over a finite distance. Also, they seemed to be at a finite distance from Bronya at the moment she started destroying the realm. Anything moving at infinite speed would have reached them instantly. Which the attack didn't.

Ig I could see the attack accelerating til it reaches infinite speed or smth, but this still makes almost any form of chainscaling from it unusable.

The Irontomb infinite speed (accepted) attack takes 5 seconds to reach Herta, but is still counted as infinite speed, as it destroys an infinite universe. Antifeats like this don't seem to count in VSBW standards. If something travels an infinite distance, it has to have infinite speed. This is what the speed page says:

Infinite Speed (Able to travel any finite distance in zero time, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time.)

Notice the 'or' there. The 2nd argument falls into the second of the two specifications.

Not sure on the this point, but iirc singularities cannot be escaped from merely with infinite speed, because all physical paths also loop inward. Also, sound would never reach outside the singularity, so saying "Catch" is pointless.

You're entirely right on this, theoretically black holes do work like this, but VSBW standards come in once again.

A good way to explain that is the light cone model. As the article has already shown, nothing can escape a black hole once past the event horizon, because it will just travel further into the black hole no matter in which direction it goes. That is, as long as it is confined in the light cone, which only is the case for things below the speed of light. So faster than light characters would still be capable of escaping a black hole past the event horizon even though even for them it gets more and more difficult, and at the center of the black hole, in the singularity, it would require infinite speed to do so.

This is from here.

With the 1st argument your logic is completely sound (was just scoops idea there) but I wouldn't be surprised if it comes down to VSBW standards.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I heavily doubt no. 1 is scalable to speed ngl.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

The issue is that if you're looking at only the centre when talking about points of rotation, the centre NEVER moves, so any rotation feats would be 0 speed (as you're just rotating around a point), which shouldn't be the case if it is.
Also, speed is just power x force, immeasurable LS would logically equal infinite speed lol.

That's why I think 1 is a matter of VSBW standards (the realm wasn't infinite when immeasurable LS was accepted, so it's important to have this conversation now) and it's best to focus on the other args, like 2 and 3.

 

[Mbpoops]

I heavily doubt no. 1 is scalable to speed ngl.

Tbf i just suggested it because they are flipping an infinite distance if its just an LS feat then thats fine by me

 

[ItsMeat]

The Irontomb infinite speed (accepted) attack takes 5 seconds to reach Herta, but is still counted as infinite speed, as it destroys an infinite universe. Antifeats like this don't seem to count in VSBW standards. If something travels an infinite distance, it has to have infinite speed.

This wiki does use antifeats for debunks…

This is what the speed page says:

Notice the 'or' there. The 2nd argument falls into the second of the two specifications.

The reason that 'or' exists is because that's basically the same speed ([infinite d])/[finite t] simplified by infinity which is [finite d]/([finite t)/infinite], thus [finite d]/[0 t]. If something takes 5 seconds to travel an infinite distance, then what is the time it takes to travel a finite distance? 1 second? No. 0.00000000001 seconds? No.

Nonetheless, as said, I agree the attack eventually reaches infinite speed via acceleration, because it does travel an infinite distance in a finite time, it's just that the speed isn't constant, so scaling a character to inf speed via reacting to it at a close range, for example won't work.

That being said,

You're entirely right on this, theoretically black holes do work like this, but VSBW standards come in once again.


This is from here.

I have to agree with the third argument since those are the wiki's standards.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

number 1 is most definitely just LS

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

This wiki does use antifeats for debunks…

The reason that 'or' exists is because that's basically the same speed ([infinite d])/[finite t] simplified by infinity which is [finite d]/([finite t)/infinite], thus [finite d]/[0 t]. If something takes 5 seconds to travel an infinite distance, then what is the time it takes to travel a finite distance? 1 second? No. 0.00000000001 seconds? No.

Nonetheless, as said, I agree the attack eventually reaches infinite speed via acceleration, because it does travel an infinite distance in a finite time, it's just that the speed isn't constant, so scaling a character to inf speed via reacting to it at a close range, for example won't work.

BTW, there's nothing about the attack accelerating and it's obviously not range. It does travel an infinite distance, no matter what, we can't just assume acceleration either.

This is why the Irontomb stuff is accepted despite having an antifeat, because moving an infinite distance in ANY finite amount of time is still infinite speed.

Furthermore, Sonic crossing Night Palace (an infinite realm) is accepted for infinite speed. This is a gameplay segment and is never stated to be 'instant' or anything regarding that.

Also Goku crossing from Otherworld to Hell in 5 minutes (both infinite realms) is accepted as infinite speed.

So there's precedent for this being accepted as infinite speed.

It might not make intuitive sense, but it's still infinite speed.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Btw infinite speed on the speed page quite literally says moving an infinite distance in a finite time explicitly

 

[Natsuki012]

Infinite Speed (Able to travel any finite distance in zero time, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

as for Welt and Zephyro part idk

It travels the entire universe. Zephyro and Welt are the epicenter

 

[KingOfDarknessBelow]

It travels the entire universe. Zephyro and Welt are the epicenter

Would that count under them? Was is not like a reaction from black hole and white hole, if it does then yea

 

[Maniaunavailable]

agree with all 3

 

[Vietthai96]

Point 1 is a no, controlling an infinite realm isn't something qualified for infinite speed

Point 2 is just AP and Range feat, you are making an assumption that there is an attack that traverse physically within that realm but definitely no, you need to concrete proof, otherwose shaking a realm isn't speed feat

Point 3, wth is that? Is the "dream" or singularity infinite in size? I don't remember when playing this part

Point 4 is just a more flashy point 2, nothing infinite speed about it. Or else we can now give infinite speed to anyone who destroys infinite-sized structure without actual speed feat

The only feat you can argue for Infinite speed is Irontomb shockwave which actually look like physically travel

Though you need to deal with anti-feats

1. Finality Kiana blast in Part 1.5 literally take time to reach to Griseo's planet and Sa, they are at the outer edge of the solar system

2. HoV Sirin take time to fly to the moon and get the gems and then fly back iirc in the manga

3. The bombing scene in Arc city literally have Kiana rush to the Bomb before it detonate and of course the bomb have a countdown. And later when she uses her HoV power it took time for her to fly to the space before it explode

4. Time fracture and time stop ability narratively make no sense anymore if people having infinite speed

Can't post scans cause i'm on phone and is at work

Anyway i need to disagree for now

 

[Mbpoops]

Point 1 is a no, controlling an infinite realm isn't something qualified for infinite speed

Fair.

Point 2 is just AP and Range feat, you are making an assumption that there is an attack that traverse physically within that realm but definitely no, you need to concrete proof, otherwose shaking a realm isn't speed feat

i think this is a bit fair since we dont accept infinite speed goku for shaking the WoV but eh idk

Point 3, wth is that? Is the "dream" or singularity infinite in size? I don't remember when playing this part

why does it need to be infinite in size? its similar to a black hole's singularity and the wiki accepts escaping a black hole's singularity as infinite speed
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Hole_Feats_in_Fiction#:~:text=it would require infinite speed to do so

The only feat you can argue for Infinite speed is Irontomb shockwave which actually look like physically travel

Though you need to deal with anti-feats

1. Finality Kiana blast in Part 1.5 literally take time to reach to Griseo's planet and Sa, they are at the outer edge of the solar system

2. HoV Sirin take time to fly to the moon and get the gems and then fly back iirc in the manga

3. The bombing scene in Arc city literally have Kiana rush to the Bomb before it detonate and of course the bomb have a countdown. And later when she uses her HoV power it took time for her to fly to the space before it explode

4. Time fracture and time stop ability narratively make no sense anymore if people having infinite speed

why do any of these matter? we literally accept kratos as infinite speed (now immeasurable) yet his has to ride wolves and boats to travel and is getting mogged by a bear.

actually wait what does sirin have to do with this crt? i dont think this affects sirin at all since the manga takes place years before these arcs

 

[Vietthai96]

why does it need to be infinite in size? its similar to a black hole's singularity and the wiki accepts escaping a black hole's singularity as infinite speed

Because the verse need to portray the singularity as literal real life singularity. Also, real life singularity bend space-time and singularity isn't a point in space but the final point in time, so escapse singularity require time travelling backward, or FTL, cause in real life fly faster than light make you goes backward in time, in fiction verse due to the existence of FTL speed you need immeasurable speed.

So i could say that FAQ is quite outdated

why do any of these matter? we literally accept kratos as infinite speed (now immeasurable) yet his has to ride wolves and boats to travel and is getting mogged by a bear.

........

Well, tbf here idk much about GoW to say, other thab getting mogged by bear, using other means to travel isn't really anti-feat unless somehow those rides have shit like can outspeed the character, that gonna be the issue yes

The issue with Honkai is all these anti-feats is directly come from character own ability and you can't even say that they are playing around when in these situation they are pretty serious in using their power

actually wait what does sirin have to do with this crt? i dont think this affects sirin at all since the manga takes place years before these arcs

Didn't you guys backscales to her a lot?. Since she is a powerful herrchers and she is > Welt who again in the scaling chain

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

The only feat you can argue for Infinite speed is Irontomb shockwave which actually look like physically travel

We already accept infinite speed for Irontomb from a previous thread. It only scales to Aeons, Nigh Aeons, Irontomb and Cocoon. No one else scales. (God tiers of HSR and HI3)

 

[Vietthai96]

We already accept infinite speed for Irontomb from a previous thread. It only scales to Aeons, Nigh Aeons, Irontomb and Cocoon. No one else scales. (God tiers of HSR and HI3)

I have memory issue i guess

That's it, time to delete the verse

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Though you need to deal with anti-feats

1. Finality Kiana blast in Part 1.5 literally take time to reach to Griseo's planet and Sa, they are at the outer edge of the solar system

This isn't even an antifeat, Kiana did this quite casually and was explicitly told to hold back

2. HoV Sirin take time to fly to the moon and get the gems and then fly back iirc in the manga

Flight Speed =/= Combat Speed, also this wouldn't scale to SE HoV Sirin iirc

3. The bombing scene in Arc city literally have Kiana rush to the Bomb before it detonate and of course the bomb have a countdown. And later when she uses her HoV power it took time for her to fly to the space before it explode

This wouldn't even scale to this version of Kiana, so I don't think any of these are an issue at all

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Btw I just want to clarify none of those alleged anti feats has any affect on the Aeons, Nigh Aeons, or Cocoon. Unless you’re arguing Sirin = Cocoon. Which damn, High 1-C Sirin was true all along.

 

[Mbpoops]

Btw I just want to clarify none of those alleged anti feats has any affect on the Aeons, Nigh Aeons, or Cocoon. Unless you’re arguing Sirin = Cocoon. Which damn, High 1-C Sirin was true all along.

this shouldnt really affect HSR at all theres no direct scale all their speed is from irontomb

 

[Vietthai96]

This isn't even an antifeat, Kiana did this quite casually and was explicitly told to hold back

Iirc, she didn't hold back, she need to aim her blast

Flight Speed =/= Combat Speed, also this wouldn't scale to SE HoV Sirin iirc

You need a good explanation for this, not using flight speed =/= combat speed as an excuse button that magically solves everything

Btw I just want to clarify none of those alleged anti feats has any affect on the Aeons, Nigh Aeons, or Cocoon. Unless you’re arguing Sirin = Cocoon. Which damn, High 1-C Sirin was true all along.

In my agenda scaling Herrschers > Aeons (except Welt) so you need to change my mind

this shouldnt really affect HSR at all theres no direct scale all their speed is from irontomb

I......didn't say..........anything......about HSR though? Wut?

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I......didn't say..........anything......about HSR though? Wut?

You said those in response to Irontomb, an HSR character.

In my agenda scaling Herrschers > Aeons so you need to change my mind

Welt on his knees against Emanators be like

You need a good explanation for this, not using flight speed =/= combat speed as an excuse button that magically solves everything

Isn’t Artoria literally MFTL + with immeasurable combat and reaction speed

 

[Mbpoops]

Because the verse need to portray the singularity as literal real life singularity. Also, real life singularity bend space-time and singularity isn't a point in space but the final point in time, so escapse singularity require time travelling backward, or FTL, cause in real life fly faster than light make you goes backward in time, in fiction verse due to the existence of FTL speed you need immeasurable speed.

So i could say that FAQ is quite outdated

but wouldnt this require a staff crt to change? thats how we currently accept it so why wouldnt we be able to use it now? also why wouldnt it be like an actual singularity if they are comparing it directly to a black hole's singularity?

........

Well, tbf here idk much about GoW to say, other thab getting mogged by bear, using other means to travel isn't really anti-feat unless somehow those rides have shit like can outspeed the character, that gonna be the issue yes

The issue with Honkai is all these anti-feats is directly come from character own ability and you can't even say that they are playing around when in these situation they are pretty serious in using their power

kiana was told to hold back by prometheus with the blast

2 and 3 arent apart of the chainscale since kiana is weaker than Herrscher of stars at this time

4 why does this matter? we have characters with infinite speed affected by time stops all the time its just hax

Didn't you guys backscales to her a lot?. Since she is a powerful herrchers and she is > Welt who again in the scaling chain

no i said herrscher of stars, sirin is herrscher of the void which comes way before this. sirin > welt doesnt matter cause welt doesnt current have infinite speed from the black hole white hole thingy

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Iirc, she didn't hold back, she need to aim her blast

What does aiming her blast have to do with her not holding back? That's not any form of proof or antifeat against her not holding back

You need a good explanation for this, not using flight speed =/= combat speed as an excuse button that magically solves everything

What...? I'm genuinely confused right now, that is literally how speed standards work by default, we have an entire section on the speed page detailing this and the page itself explicitly separates the two for a reason

 

[Vietthai96]

You said those in response to Irontomb, an HSR character.

I think you guys mean i have issue with HSR infinite speed

but wouldnt this require a staff crt to change? thats how we currently accept it so why wouldnt we be able to use it now?

Yeah?

also why wouldnt it be like an actual singularity if they are comparing it directly to a black hole's singularity?

Need to show actual effect of the singularity. A lot of verse can namedrop black hole singularity and get nothing from it

why does this matter? we have characters with infinite speed affected by time stops all the time its just hax

Cause you need reason for why timestop can affect infinite speed character.

 

[Mbpoops]

Iirc, she didn't hold back, she need to aim her blast

i was wrong.. it doesnt even travel she just says bang so this isnt an anti feat

You need a good explanation for this, not using flight speed =/= combat speed as an excuse button that magically solves everything

it doesnt really matter though because sirin doesnt scale to this

In my agenda scaling Herrschers > Aeons (except Welt) so you need to change my mind

based.

I......didn't say..........anything......about HSR though? Wut?

cassie did was clarifying for him

 

[Vietthai96]

Isn’t Artoria literally MFTL + with immeasurable combat and reaction speed

Forget this, but Fate is pretty good at separate combat speed with other speed. Artoria has Mana Burst which will boost her speed to extreme in combat. And Lancer is stated to have crazy speed burst in combat, make him the fastest servant in combat

 

[Mbpoops]

I think you guys mean i have issue with HSR infinite speed

hsr's only ability will be superhuman characteristics someday..

Yeah?

sob emoji

Need to show actual effect of the singularity. A lot of verse can namedrop black hole singularity and get nothing from it

honkai black holes tend to work like real black holes. this is what they would be comparing them to as everyone there has seen zeroth

Cause you need reason for why timestop can affect infinite speed character.

when was the wiki this specific about time stop?

 

[Vietthai96]

honkai black holes tend to work like real black holes. this is what they would be comparing them to as everyone there has seen zeroth

Immeasurable speed HI3?? Hmmm..

when was the wiki this specific about time stop?

More like specific about how time hax can affect infinite speed character who can move in 0 time

 

[Mbpoops]

Immeasurable speed HI3?? Hmmm..

More like specific about how time hax can affect infinite speed character who can move in 0 time

Game induced stupidity + layers

 

[Mbpoops]

More like specific about how time hax can affect infinite speed character who can move in 0 time

actually idk if this matters but no one actually uses time fracture in lore outside of gameplay so should this really count as an anti feat? Last i recall the only time it was use was when kiana saved mei from fake joyce in the manga which takes place years before any of these feats