Sorry for the unauthorised comment but i really wanna understand something to clear a misconception. It is related but with a difference in sense that if Character A has lower AP but higher Lifting Strength and Character B has massive AP gap but with lesser Lifting Strength, can Character A choke Character B?
Choke, yes. That doesn't do much internal damage by means of force, it's just compressing blood flow and so on. I suppose you could argue the body is too durable to compress but I don't think I'd agree with that.
I know that this is an example note and may be subject to change, but why would choking require comparable AP to be effective? Or at least to the same degree that crushing or ripping off body parts does? Choking compresses blood flow and impedes it from going to the brain from the heart. It's not really doing any noteworthy damage via force nor is it actually destroying anything, unlike crushing or ripping off body parts.
Er, I don't agree with this.
This requires AP needed to overcome durability. You can't choke a tiger out for this reason. The muscles and skin are to thick for a human to compress.
No. If you're gapped by an enemy to the point where you can't put the needed pressure to deform their skin or muscles, you would be unable to choke them. Like you can't choke an elephant with a chain or choke a fully grown ox out. Their muscles are to thick for your strength to overcome.
They could, but that doesn't prevent a pin or submission hold. It just makes it risky. Your examples of choking are also durability focused and dislocating a limb can be down while being weaker.
Which isn't because of their material durability, it's because you lack the lifting strength to compress that much muscle and tissue (or if you prefer, because the LS gap is so massive that their neck muscles are too strong for you to affect). Understand that our AP/LS split is an arbitrary one, obviously in real life they're nearly the same thing (which is the whole reason we're saying LS doesn't duraneg) but we're taking them as separate. If the tissue isn't being damaged then it's not in the realm of durability, the fact that you can say something is too tough to affect doesn't mean anything, that's just evidence that higher LS is required.
I'm sorry, are you genuinely arguing that dislocating a limb, an action which requires you to tear through ligament, interfaces less with durability than pushing on someone's neck a little bit?
LS for VS debates is ultimately about exerting pressure when used offensively. At a certain point that pressure is going to be unable to defrom the muscles of the other character, which would result in pure LS not being enough by itself to choke out.
Please read my comment again if that's what you got from it. My point is that at a 5x AP gap dislocating or pinning is still viable, and choking would also still be viable. The issue is that at 100x or more none are viable as you can't overcome any of the muscles durability or exert enough pressure to deform something.
"Deforming" someone's muscles just simply isn't an AP vs durability thing. We don't treat higher durability bodies as "harder" than normal people, the physical behavior of their body doesn't change they're just more durable, and if we accept a LS difference then we're necessarily accepting that their muscles cannot oppose a very high-energy force. You can't turn around and say that those same muscles cannot be affected by that higher LS, that's flat-out wrong.
If a 8-C character punches a 7-B character, we treat that as the equivalent of a normal human punching a bank vault. Their bodies would be impossible difficult to damage or effect physically.
Where in our system is it said? We would already assume someone with a 100x AP gap is physically incapable of harming their enemy, they would have to win through other methods that's not physical force.
To damage =/= to affect. This idea of higher-durability characters being hunks of steel is not represented by like 99% of fiction unless they're specifically made of an unusual material (which is the one case in which I might agree with this notion), you don't have Superman being unable to comb his own hair without the comb snapping or Peter Parker being unable to have physical relations with a lover because his body might as well be made of stone to them.
I am not sure how else to clarify the notion that you're putting functionally unrelated things under the same umbrella so I am going to point out how the only coherent conclusion of your argument is saying that regardless of relative statistics, no amount of LS below the value that would be realistically necessary to affect a certain material would let you exert your LS on an opponent: meaning two 9-As wouldn't be able to strangle each other without having Class M or whatever LS would actually be necessary to actually compress a portion of extremely durable material, even if one is Class 1 and the other is Class 50.
Both of those characters have instances where people shatter hands due to being weaker than them. Neither can be choked out by someone under 100x their AP.
For a vs thread LS and AP are linked at times. Being put in a hold (LS) and then a rapid tug or torque to break something (AP) is valid within our system and my proposal.
I mean, alright. Ultimately I'm pro note with DT.
If you punch someone of the same durability as you you already stand a good chance of breaking your arm. This isn't evidence they're super-difficult to affect.
I agree dislocations are interfacing with durability, yeah. Chokes, not really.
In your section, the AP gaps are about doing physical damage with holds. It can be rewritten to be clearer, but pins/chokes would always work, just that you can't rip someone in half if you're 100x weaker than them, which is something our system already accepts.
I'll edit it into section 2
In either version physically ripping or tearing requires AP within range or greater than the target. The argument is if choking would also fall in this category.
You'd probably need one-shot higher stats still, LS doesn't cheat past durability no matter what. Something like dislocating joints would be very easy with comparable AP and higher LS though
