Las Noches Size Downgrade

[Damage3245]

So yes, it's time to wrap it up, you failed to debunk anything, now put my fries in the bag.

Don't post like a troll.

 

[Hellscream]

Damage is Stevie Wonder when it comes to ignoring aggravating messages towards me, but is the police patrol when i reply.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

All are running here, from the koryu initially, and then the kototsu later on, which is high speed.,

---

Option A :​

All Visual pixel scalable shots averaged to be the new basis of all Hueco Mundo Arc Calcs

Option B : ​

All (valid) visual shots + nel's statement get averaged together to reflect the most accurate end

anyways, ima wait for staff to vote on the options, if you're not staff please don't comment

 

[YmTheSuper]

All are running here, from the koryu initially, and then the kototsu later on, which is high speed.,
They were there for 7 days straight, and they had to constantly run, due to the koryu, and the kototsu.

They never ran for 7 days, the 7 day figure was the time it took Urahara to open the senkaimon to the soul society.

The idea that they ran for 7 days with the dangai makes no sense when Urahara kept warning them that they have to reach the other side of the Dangai within 4 minutes and that other side was visible from the moment they started running with very clear sense of urgency.

 

[Armorchompy]

1. Should we permit calcs to use Nel's statement for LN's size, if the calculation uses visuals scaling off of that?
2. Should we permit calcs to use Nel's statement for LN's size, if the calculation uses no visuals for scaling?
3. Should the size of LN given by Nel's statement be re-evaluated (likely by making it lower, assuming that a "three days walk" includes breaks)?
4. Should we permit calcs to scale LN-related feats purely off of visuals, ignoring Nel's statement?
5. Should the size of LN given by purely visual scaling, as provided in the OP, be re-evaluated (OP was 5.4km, I've found visual combinations that go as low as 1.7km, YmTheSuper found an off-site calc of 13km)?
6. Should those calculations be revised in other regards (averaging 5m and 3400m to get a "better size estimate" is not a good method)?

1. I'd prefer 4, though not as strongly as at the beginning of the thread.
2. Same as 1.
3. Absolutely, if we end up choosing it as higher priority.
4. I think that's better.
5. Sure. I'm all for refining the method.
6. Duh

Don't post like a troll.

Ghostimus has also been saying similar stuff. Both should act better, but it seems unfair to only focus on Hellscream.

 

[Hellscream]

They never ran for 7 days, the 7 day figure was the time it took Urahara to open the senkaimon to the soul society.

The idea that they ran for 7 days with the dangai makes no sense when Urahara kept warning them that they have to reach the other side of the Dangai within 4 minutes and that other side was visible from the moment they started running with very clear sense of urgency.

Good point, i actually forgot about this, haven't read the entirety of the series in 10+ years

 

[Damage3245]

Ghostimus has also been saying similar stuff. Both should act better, but it seems unfair to only focus on Hellscream.

I haven't been reading every single comment; that line just stood out to me, but yes, users should avoid trying to aggravate each other.

 

[Greg_the_master_of_gods]

I think the 3 day walk should be used but with more realistic walking per day, even if they are superhuman, when somebody talks about the days of a walk, it's normally supposed to mean a normal person walking and 235 km in 3 days is not something a normal person can do.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I made a quick calc using 8 hours of sleep/rest per day:

Walking time per day: 24 - 8 = 16 h/day

Total walking time: 6 × 16 = 96 h

In seconds: 96 × 3600 = 345,600 s

Distance/Whole circumference:

345,600 × 1.4 = 483,840 m

483,840 m = 483.84 km

Radius of Las Noches:

r = 483.84 / 2π

r ≈ 483.84 / 6.283185

r ≈ 77.01 km

 

[Greg_the_master_of_gods]

I made a quick calc using 8 hours of sleep/rest per day:

Walking time per day: 24 - 8 = 16 h/day

Total walking time: 6 × 16 = 96 h

In seconds: 96 × 3600 = 345,600 s

Distance/circumference:

345,600 × 1.4 = 483,840 m

483,840 m = 483.84 km

Radius of Las Noches:

r = 483.84 / 2π

r ≈ 483.84 / 6.283185

r ≈ 77.01 km

Dude 16 hours per day of walking is still a little wanked but that's still way better than the BS 235 km

 

[IbukiDoujisGiantTail]

anyways, ima wait for staff to vote on the options, if you're not staff please don't comment

sorry im gonna do it anyways So its easier for the CGM reading this thread, can both sides make a short summary of their arguments as to why they're pro/against the downgrade/recalc

 

[Armorchompy]

I made a quick calc using 8 hours of sleep/rest per day:

Walking time per day: 24 - 8 = 16 h/day

Total walking time: 6 × 16 = 96 h

In seconds: 96 × 3600 = 345,600 s

Distance/Whole circumference:

345,600 × 1.4 = 483,840 m

483,840 m = 483.84 km

Radius of Las Noches:

r = 483.84 / 2π

r ≈ 483.84 / 6.283185

r ≈ 77.01 km

Maybe it can be touched up but looking a little bit into how much people can cross per day (can't find a good reliable source otherwise I'd just suggest it) that seems roughly okay.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Maybe it can be touched up but looking a little bit into how much people can cross per day (can't find a good reliable source otherwise I'd just suggest it) that seems roughly okay.

I used this, for average walking speed of 1.4m/s.

if you add up 2h extra for rest on top of sleeping, then it is 10h rest per day. I think that is really, the most conservative estimation.

Walking time per day: 24 - 10 = 14 hours/day

Total walking time: 6 × 14 = 84 hours

In seconds: 84 × 3600 = 302,400 s

Distance / circumference: 302,400 × 1.4 = 423,360 m

Convert to km: 423,360 m = 423.36 km

Radius:

r = 423.36 / 2π

r = 423.36 / 6.283185...

r ≈ 67.38 km

 

[DragoZeroNova]

I'm not super familiar with the series' chronology and scaling, but this LN stuff seems to happen well after the Arrancar Arc, where Orihime has Hypersonic travel speed (or maybe the profile's structured badly? idk).

I haven't been keeping up with the thread so I don't know if you've gotten an answer for this, but Orihime currently has Hypersonic combat speed. Bleach doesn't have travel speed ratings (all profile speeds are assumed as combat unless stated otherwise) and while I'm still working on Part 2 of my speed revisions (covering everything up to the Timeskip except Aizen and everyone who scales to him), I don't really have anything for travel speed atm (and quite frankly, I don't really want to bother, someone else can do travel speed revisions if they want).

 

[M3X_2.0]

1. I'd prefer 4, though not as strongly as at the beginning of the thread.
2. Same as 1.
3. Absolutely, if we end up choosing it as higher priority.
4. I think that's better.
5. Sure. I'm all for refining the method.
6. Duh

Agree with everything.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Agree with everything.

dubs




Damage may we have your input?

 

[Damage3245]

dubs




Damage may we have your input?

I think either option A or B would be fine.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Option A : Armorchompy, M3X, Damage3245​

All Visual pixel scalable shots averaged to be the new basis of all Hueco Mundo Arc Calcs

Option B : Damage3245​

All (valid) visual shots + nel's statement get averaged together to reflect the most accurate end

great, that's 3 votes for option A and 1 for B so far

 

[Floxy178]

1. I'd prefer 4, though not as strongly as at the beginning of the thread.
2. Same as 1.
3. Absolutely, if we end up choosing it as higher priority.
4. I think that's better.
5. Sure. I'm all for refining the method.
6. Duh

Same for me.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Option A : Armorchompy, M3X, Damage3245, Floxy​

All Visual pixel scalable shots averaged to be the new basis of all Hueco Mundo Arc Calcs

Option B : Damage3245​

All (valid) visual shots + nel's statement get averaged together to reflect the most accurate end

With all the initial voters having re-affirmed their stance, I think it's safe to conclude with the majority vote so far that the on screen depiction method has been accepted.

I'll request my friend @Saqphire to redo the calcs using valid visual shots and have them posted for evaluation later during the day

 

[Agnaa]

4-2, so it goes~

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I think you should ask @Dalesean027 since he disagreed as well, with Agna it could be 3 votes.

@Armorchompy doesn't seems in favour to just toss away the statement, but to include it too.

Just concluding to throw away and ignore the statement still seems to me a forced decision, we have no real reason to fully ignore the stated distance by walking.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I think you should ask @Dalesean027 since he disagreed as well, with Agna it could be 3 votes.

@Armorchompy doesn't seems in favour to just toss away the statement, but to include it too.

Just concluding to throw away and ignore the statement still seems to me a forced decision, we have no real reason to fully ignore the stated distance by walking.

he literally said 4 is the better choice

anyways Scar told me he's busy spending time with his girl, so I'll chuck out the calc myself in a few hours

 

[Agnaa]

he literally said 4 is the better choice

Huh? Dalesean hasn't posted here in a while.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Huh? Dalesean hasn't posted here in a while.

He meant Armor

 

[Infinite9Luck]

In both these images, we see the horizon, can't it be used to be calced as well?

 

[M3X_2.0]

I suppose the main practical questions that CGMs should vote on here are:

1. Should we permit calcs to use Nel's statement for LN's size, if the calculation uses visuals scaling off of that?
2. Should we permit calcs to use Nel's statement for LN's size, if the calculation uses no visuals for scaling?
3. Should the size of LN given by Nel's statement be re-evaluated (likely by making it lower, assuming that a "three days walk" includes breaks)?
4. Should we permit calcs to scale LN-related feats purely off of visuals, ignoring Nel's statement?
5. Should the size of LN given by purely visual scaling, as provided in the OP, be re-evaluated (OP was 5.4km, I've found visual combinations that go as low as 1.7km, YmTheSuper found an off-site calc of 13km)?
6. Should those calculations be revised in other regards (averaging 5m and 3400m to get a "better size estimate" is not a good method)?

For which I'd say

1. Yes.
2. Ideally only if necessary (so, if the manga provides no usable visuals), but if 1 is rejected, then yeah.
3. Yes.
4. No.
5. If 4 is accepted, then yeah.
6. Yes.

If I missed any, lmk and I'll get back to it tomorrow.

@Dalesean027

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

In both these images, we see the horizon, can't it be used to be calced as well?

if you have a height figure for those towers you see in the distance we can find out how far away they are, but if we don't know then all this gives us is height

 

[Arkenis]

In both these images, we see the horizon, can't it be used to be calced as well?

if you have a height figure for those towers you see in the distance we can find out how far away they are, but if we don't know then all this gives us is height

Here's an image of Manhattan's skyline from Brooklyn 10 miles away.


Here's Boston from 15 miles away.


Here's Toronto's skyline from Adjala-Tosorontio, roughly 30-50 miles away.

Here's Toronto from Niagara Falls 41 miles away.

My point here is, if any of the palaces are in the 100-200m range in height, they'd be visible in most of the shots, but they aren't. Would like some proposal through horizon measurements maybe?

Same applies for these towers not seen in other instances. Or are they?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

My point here is, if any of the palaces are in the 100-200m range in height, they'd be visible in most of the shots, but they aren't. Would like some proposal through horizon measurements maybe?

I'm not tooo good at the horizon formula but if you know your way around it you can share what the yield would be with the class

Overall I don't think that Las Noches is supposed to be this country sized palace due to not only the visual contradictions but the fact that there's nothing we see implying that it's that large throught the arc other than Nel's statement. As for the replacement size I don't fully agree with the 5 kilometers value (I have seen an offsite calc giving a size of 13km which probably makes more sense), Although I did find that the scaling Las Noches to its height found from the blast that Ichigo's cero creates is pretty consistent giving a 5.9km width for Las Noches. (The cero was used on the left side of the palace which is why i used that location in Las Noches for the height)

now for this one, do we know if the short but wide pillar used as reference in the second image same as the first one? the colored one does not show the thin pillars


trying an additional end with that image nonetheless

 

[Arkenis]

I'm not tooo good at the horizon formula but if you know your way around it you can share what the yield would be with the class

Luckily there's a calculator.

Distance to Horizon Calculator

Learn the geometry of horizons with our distance to the horizon calculator: on Earth or anywhere else in the Solar System!

www.omnicalculator.com

100 meters above surface level and you can see 35.696km away, 200 meters and you can see 50.48km. We'd need someone to calculate sizes for the palaces first and ofc figure out the height of Aizen's towers. If we go with LN wanting to resemble the real world, say the canopy is just 1.5km tall then that means we should be able to see his towers at 138.26km but we aren't shown it. The palaces are pretty random since we don't know their placements but Aizen's towers are in the middle of LN iirc so that'd make it somewhat more accurate.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Didn't damage debunk this idea?

 

[Arkenis]

Not sure. But I don't really understand what debunks it since we're using the absence of these structures in the foreground of many panels

 

[Dalesean027]

For which I'd say

1. Yes.
2. Ideally only if necessary (so, if the manga provides no usable visuals), but if 1 is rejected, then yeah.
3. Yes.
4. No.
5. If 4 is accepted, then yeah.
6. Yes

I basically share these same thoughts

Option B : Damage3245​

All (valid) visual shots + nel's statement get averaged together to reflect the most accurate end

Im for option B personally. Discarding the statement is silly to me if we want a true average

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Agna would you like to also greenlight Option B since the others were rejected? if you do then we can proceed with that

 

[Agnaa]

Agna would you like to also greenlight Option B since the others were rejected? if you do then we can proceed with that

No, I'd prefer Option A over Option B. But of course, prefer different options significantly more than both of those.

Mixing together two completely inconsistent things doesn't get something more accurate.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Fair enough, with majority supporting the first option, I've got the measurements done and I'll adjust the calcs accordingly now

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

So while recalculating Lanza Del Relampago, I noticed one issue

Arc assumed this ejected sand circle has a thickness of 1 km by assuming 1 px is the thickness but the issue is, the thickness is not displayed per say? even if it was something like 1m thick you would still see the same illustration as you see in the manga, we are shown the sand circle curving around giving it the illusion of some thickness so I think using that to assume 1 px worth of thickness is unreliable and the Lanza calc should go back to the previous end arc attempted which is vaporization of sand, since ulq could vape rocks it'd be easier to vape sand the same way which is why I propose to use this method for lanza instead of the KE end

As KE rises exponentially, it falls exponentially which means the new method will result in a higher value for the Lanza compared to what arc's KE calc could grant

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Recalc done, please give it a look over in case there are any mistakes, since the profiles have the espada use a different feat than what was affected in this thread for their current tiering we won't need to make any CRTs to change them, if this calc blog is deemed valid we should be good to end the thread after that

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Ghostimuscrime/Las_Noches_Feats_Recalculated

 

[KingogKings777]

Peak that Gin can cut through LN with no problems now but cant cut through all of Karakura Town. Btw can someone summarize why we do not use Nel's statement for the size of LN. Also will there be a discussion rule on the size of LN like Seireitei since someone mentioned that or will it be open season if someone wants to make a CRT to undo the changes in the future?