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Can yall shut up and stay on topic?
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Las Noches Size Downgrade
- Thread starter Ghostimuscrime
- Start date
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- bleach
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Hellscream
He/Him- 2,380
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What is your current opinion, based on the provided arguments btw?
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There are several issues with the atmospheric pressure arguments. For starters, hypoxia had not yet "been established" at this point in the series. Gremmy vs Kenpachi didn't happen till like 300 chapters after the Hueco Mundo arc. There's no proof that this thought had even crossed Kubo's mind at this point.
Secondly, all you have to do to dispute this argument is say that Kubo will ignore physics for the sake of something looking cool, which is the easiest thing in the world to prove, since this is a Shonen Manga we're talking about.
Thirdly, you make it a point to say you're treating Hueco Mundo's atmosphere like Earth's for the sake of "not breaking physics."
Uhhh dude, Hueco Mundo is the most nonsensical fictional dimension in Bleach. Nothing about it follows the laws of physics.
Secondly, all you have to do to dispute this argument is say that Kubo will ignore physics for the sake of something looking cool, which is the easiest thing in the world to prove, since this is a Shonen Manga we're talking about.
Thirdly, you make it a point to say you're treating Hueco Mundo's atmosphere like Earth's for the sake of "not breaking physics."
Uhhh dude, Hueco Mundo is the most nonsensical fictional dimension in Bleach. Nothing about it follows the laws of physics.
- It somehow has natural light despite it being shown that there are no stars in the dimension.
- It somehow has earth-like clouds despite being an endless desert with no sources of water vapor.
- Its atmosphere is made up of fictional particles that buff and sustain soul reapers.
- It's got a single moon that has natural moonlight with no sun and never changes any lunar phases
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Personal request: Please stop including bits like this in your posts.
Everyone's fine to decide this on their own, but I think most people would think "a 3 day walk is probably quite a bit longer than 8km" is less-niche knowledge than "at high altitudes, explosions should not create chimney plumes".
You do realise that we don't include friction in our calculations (outside of acknowledging that terminal velocity exists, and that meteors get hot when they enter the atmosphere), right? One of the most surface level features of physics, we ignore it because we assume most fiction ignores it too.
Of course we're not going to use atmospheric gas physics to dismiss a derived size, if we never use friction to give characters higher results for their KE feats.
Expected knowledge, difficulty of incorporating them, trends in fictional portrayals, how closely the result from it aligns with the non-knowledgeable person's expectation, wanting to create an enjoyable hobby with consistent rules.
Basically, when the results are unintuitive or prohibitively difficult to account for. Or when those niche implications can indicate whether a fictional imitation of a real substance shares certain important qualities with the real thing or not (black holes, light, lightning, stars, etc.). I think this is somewhat close to the latter, but not quite there. We should not, in fact, be dismissing all large structures from all of fiction unless they demonstrate proper atmospheric gas physics and hypoxia.
Because I'm a staff member :3
I already tried seven years ago to revise a character based on more realistic physics, including friction, since for that specific feat the effects of friction were specifically mentioned. That was ultimately rejected, but I thought those reasons made sense, so I'm carrying them forward here.
I'd suppose that the timeframe method is the only one that was able to easily fit into the story. That, or he didn't care too much, and was fine with just leaving it at one indication. Or he doesn't want to dispense the same information in the same way every time; it's good writing to mix things up.
Also, obligatory reminder that Seretei didn't have numerically precise statements, yet they still consistently landed around the same value. Your assertion that if he wants it known, he will give numerically precise statements, seems false, just from that.
It's not that deep, it's just one potential way of giving us a glimpse into his internal view of the world.
I think it's weird to look at bits of a text as if they fit into little discrete categories like that. Every author has an idea of various aspects of their world, and has to nail them down when writing specific details. The values they write down reflect what they find plausible in that moment. An author generally wouldn't find "Oh no, we don't have time to walk across this neighbourhood playground, it'd take us 40 days to do so!" acceptable to write, and neither would the readers. Both would immediately recognise that despite it meeting a primary goal just fine (pushing character actions and/or establishing urgency), it breaks worldbuilding realism (which, yes, does include the size of structures).
Or in short, why would this worldbuilding not include size?
Obviously. You don't need to be a god who factors in everything to not call a 2 hour walk a 3 day walk. That's so baked in human experience, and those phrases are so distinct, that it's hard to make that mistake.
I am.
This is quite an easy guess, imo.
Battleboarding is very subjective. We bring our own underlying assumptions and ways of treating evidence. It's hard to tell which of these are ideal, but we can get there through discussion. Recognising this reality is not a failure on my part.
The only real issues, outside of the visual comparisons which still exist in games, are the atmospheric stuff, which I've addressed elsewhere.
It's challenging your underlying thought process with a similar situation in other pieces of media. Seeing whether you ACTUALLY believe that visuals trump all in "visual-based" media, even despite those examples of visuals obviously being inaccurate. Pointing out how there are many places where people will provide inaccurate visuals for something to look better; for the relevant character's appearance to be recognisable.
Ah my bad, I missed that imgur link.
Well, doing some quick and dirty pixel-scaling on those:
- First one gives a pillar diameter of ~16m.
- Second one gives 38m, as you showed in your blog.
- Third one gives ~24m.
- Fourth one gives ~24m.
- Fifth one doesn't give great info. If we extrapolate its curvature as being similar to other shots, we'd get the pillar being ~3m, but I know this method isn't very reliable.
- Sixth one is similar. Doing something similar, we get ~15m, with the same caveats.
- I don't know how to judge what the size is meant to be on the seventh one.
- Pixel scaling the size of the wing segments from the seventh one, and using that for the pillar diameter on the eighth one, gets ~29m. But that two-step measuring does make this a lil dodgy.
- I'm not sure what sort of size comparison you're meant to be showing with the ninth one. I can't tell which of those black specs is meant to be a character, if any.
- Repeating the wing scaling for the tenth one, gets a diameter of ~18m.
- Doing more curvature extrapolation on the eleventh gives ~5m. Same caveats.
- Twelfth one, doing more wing scaling, gets ~30m.
Plus, this was only looking at one aspect of it; the pillar diameter. There are other aspects of this....
- From this image, we see that the pillar's height is 12.5x its diameter.
- This panel, however, only shows their height being ~2x its diameter.
- And this panel only shows their height, at most, being ~7.5x its diameter.
5.34km actually seems to be a bit of a high end. If we use different, but still reasonable, panels for the scaling, it could get as small as 1.7km. An athletic human could run across it in 5 minutes. Does that sound accurate to you?
A few examples showing that Kubo makes mistakes with art sometimes does not prove that art is more reliable than text. Come on.
I do not believe that Kubo pulled the "three days walk" number out of his ass, with no consideration of how much that applied to the reality of the situation. He may not have done a precise calc that came to the same number we did, but people naturally have an intuition for those sorts of things.
I did both. I said I don't view it as so, and I explained why I don't.
To explain why it's harder to forget gravity, than it is to forget the lack of chimney plumes at high altitudes (which you did not, in the blog, establish he knew about) or the exact altitude where hypoxia starts occurring (when his demonstrated knowledge of this is 300 chapters later and takes place in outer space); I would simply say that humans have a lot more innate knowledge of the former than of the latter two.
I don't understand why you'd take a character saying that one would lose consciousness in outer space 300 chapters later, to make hypoxia such a vital and inseparable piece of the series' rules. I've seen many series violate actual rules unique to the setting that were established a lot more strongly, and prior to the contradiction. So leaving out something like this does not bother me.
That'd still lead to big results for the feats that have associated statements :3
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So you wanna say Kubo is forgetful enough to mistake a 3-day walk with a light jogging distance, but at the same time think he was accounting for atmospheric gas behavior while writing his manga.
This is a crazy reach in logic.
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Ghostimuscrime
He/Him- 3,678
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- Thread starter
- #246
Lmao what is the conflict here? it's just rehashing the same singular line everyone and their mother in the pro-bleach side was regurgitating which is "oh no Nel's statement conflicts it's the end of the universe" aside from that genuinely nothing here in his comment is of any substance worth countering, he doesn't even address anything else of what I say either, with all due respect that's a nothing burger comment you're linking to
It's odd you say this agna because you are given proof the statements are what he effed up and the visuals are what he kept consistent, you're playing the reverse card with no evidence
even generally you can drop a lot of statements that don't make sense considering everything else, Candice's 5 GJ statement is proof of this, Zaraki's base attacks being sub steel level is proof of this, Askin dying to falling rocks are proof of this, that they don't really understand how statements can contradict things, with visuals you genuinely get to see your **** ups immediately, if the anatomy is bad, you can redraw, if the structure and system are poorly made it can be visually detected early on because all the ramifications caused by it are immediately noticeable, statements don't have this benefit
so you're wrong in the general sense regarding Kubo
you're also wrong in the evidence based case that's our ongoing topic as well
this basically
maybe it's my fault because I got a bit lazy with the px scaling and only did one where as I should have done many because most people gloss over things that aren't visually put to face but you're going back to the same issue, you're pre supposing the statement is the one and only truth
the issue is that this is a pre supposition with 0 merit
why are you using that unclear scan you clearly had to crop out? and that too many chapters later it seems? is it not dishonest to use an angular shot?
LN was shown majorly in the Hueco Mundo Arc and maybe 1 time later in the tybw to show remains, how can you compare angular shot of a wrecked LN compared to the shots, you can't use those dookie backwater shots to force a narrative like that it doesn't work
I see that the diameter is 858 pixels
now if you'd look at this image we can see that the Las Noches is not circular, the dome is yes but the structure below is a cuboid, if viewed by the side sure but if viewed diagonally you can't calculate the sizes in relation to the prior side view shot, that's a violation of basic geometry
BLEACH Chapter 351
The 1.8m & 5.56m value comes from ang sizing, we have a rule that pixel scaling takes priority over ang sizing, you know this, so that cannot be used in argument
Less so in a series like bleach where it had prior history of horrendous abuse of ang sizing to inflate sizes as well although it's more of an issue with ang sizing where using it to find distance from the POV gives drastically incorrect results. So that puts the inconsistent visual argument out of commision.
are you genuinely for real? the difference between those two are just what
(1.54−1.08)=0.46x difference
this is deadass tiny?
not remotely enough to qualify as massive fluctuation, this isn't inconsistency, you're literally reinforcing the idea that Kubo stayed true to a reasonable, this deadass works in my favour
idk but it feels like you just throwing out pro-bleach arguments for the sake of it instead of trying to come to an accurate conclusion.
Well there's not much to say for this one in particular, I didn't notice this one during my reads and now that it's brought to my attention I am fine conceding to it hence me not responding to it.
sure
On their own scaling yes! in here? no!
you need objectivity & consistency
Can you prove Kubo thought of this, also again, why are you deciding which level of niche is okay? it has to follow a logical principle, if you're not gonna be consistent than you're not arguing based on logical scaling but cherrypicked and unsupported highballs, that's not fit for the level of standard here
that's a flaw in your logic then, that's not a gotcha & it still does not attack the argument of if the writers didn't think of it it should not be here, axe all the calcs asap
Let's go through these step by step
Expected Knowledge : Boiling Blood in space and dying from lack of oxygen are known info, especially by Kubo because he incorporated that in his story.
Difficulty of Incorporating them : considering he did that in 4K crisp details for Zaraki this is possible too, only exception might be the gas thingy
Trends in fictional portrayals : was in his manga as well as many other (e.g. dragon ball) so this is okay too
how closely the result from it aligns with the non-knowledgeable person's expectation : most people are aware of these effects!
wanting to create an enjoyable hobby with consistent rules : well considering implementing this would be consistent with what he decided the rules are it would in fact be very consistent and it would be enjoyable because it lets character's BIQ shine and do maneuvers to try and make the other suffer when each other's stats aren't enough which is quite enjoyable to read and write imo
So the standard you set is kinda biting you back bro.
not how it works, a staff can only pick and choose what they believe is right but they won't be able to pick a wrong argument and decide it is correct, staffhood does not make you immune to making incorrect arguments, it only means you get to choose to validate threads which while is whatever im pretty sure you're first and foremost intent is to be correct in general and vote on the basis of that as opposed to be correct simply because you're staff
appeal to authority (also who tf powerscales monogatari, that shit is for gooners)
No buddy, you can weave the plot to include that perfectly just like he did with everything else, if he didn't care about it we can prioritize art because that at the bare minimum needs some level of "care", he can say "the next gate is 50 km, itll take x amount of days to get there" or drop a statement at the end of chapter in his scribbles like he did with Kon
there is nothing you have that makes this assumption more likely than assuming he just didn't factor in the big size
and we saw that those seretei timeframe statements got contradicted by the story itself
also wdym landed around the same value? what does mean and how does this even help your argument? you say my assertion is false from this, i dont see how
both of them are meant to drive the characters in a certain way / direction, kubo wanted ichigo and friends to enter the seretei and be exposed to the environment he has been hyping up since chapter 1 so this ensures characters try to get there sooner instead of travelling more, if he wanted to show size, he would say size, nothing here proves he would not say the size in km lol
then why are you arguing this lmao? the shit im responding to is claiming this is his way of showing intention
if you think it's a potential or it's not deep don't try to attack the point im making and attack his instead
I believe not, if we are to use personal discretion we should be able to better understand what of these statements and showings mean like in simple terms if you can use author intent for your benefit i can do the same for mine and im not doing this in some dishonest manner, if someone has one specific goal with a statement attaching it to just that helps you NOT misinterpret him or assume something he never intended, doing so helps so evade inaccuracy
He has his ways of displaying an intended size, and I explained multiple times why the statements helps his narrative and why it goes to that and not size
Well if it's plausible at the moment but not in other situations, we can just dismiss them for other situations, have a 253 km size and feats calced assuming the 5.34 km size since he may not have had thought of that when drawing those feats
Physics and I say basic physics, forget the advanced shit, is in fact ALSO baked into human experience, you will draw gravity, you will draw fire having xyz effect, you will illustrate newton's third law, you don't think outright in your brain "hey im following physics" you just do automatically and hypoxia making you suffer is a very very blatant thing, it comes naturally to most laymans as well
bro lied & cherrypickingly highlighted the only thing that benefited his cause and ignored all else tears man
It was not, your idea of what you think he thinks is just unbacked speculation, mine follows a logical principle esp with evidence, that's not an easy guess, that's wishful thinking
Listen, you're allowed to bring your personal view and I will respect that but the moment you ask me to debunk it, you're essentially telling me I need to hold these views or counter them, you're no longer just sharing your subjective stance, when you do ask someone to counter your points you need arguments, you need evidence, you need to follow logic, coherency, consistency. If you see an argument and hit me with "yeah but i think xyz" im not getting much to work with outside saying you're wrong, if it was "yeah i think xyz because abc" now that would be something, you're not providing that either in the second line
uhhh?
but you're not doing that? you're just saying i think xyz and abc works like that
that's not another case and even so that'd be whataboutism which I'm immune to because Im fine with applying the logic i have presented here to any verse here & these visuals are not incorrect
Yes would you mind showing the individual calculations? i'd prefer we be as thorough as possible, in case you may or may not have made an error
nonetheless as you can see, there's quite the consistency minus the ones you said are unreliable
I love how you try to discredit this by saying it isn't aggressively consistent, because you know they still follow one reasonable range and we don't expect them to be 1:1
it is aggressively consistent given that it is being compared to the Seretei and well it's fluctuation is this big
compared to that yeah I think it is pretty much much more consistent and in general as well, much more stronger evidence than something you'll never prove got factored in
7 same as the one before but i understand if there's an issue, but the ratio is still similar so it's good supporting evidence
ooo more steps are wrong you say? i agree ngl, lets gut the nel statement because it is an additional step compared to my main calc in the blog
9 is this
I thought we aren't to go niche? what happened to your criteria? you're doing this again where you throw out logic and only keep what benefits you, that's self refuting.
I am open to an averaged result of them all to aim for greater consistency, since it's a standard procedure i might add (this would include nel's statement too btw)
You are picking the lowest end and trying to use incredulity on that which is wrong, what's also wrong is assuming the statement is 100% true and everything else in the universe needs to bend towards it, we've seen how the seretei statements fall apart and it does not actually remotely take that much time to travel, same here
you should be saying after viewing images like this (see below) that these would never take 3 days and it's a bunch of rubbish the the author did not factor in! goes both ways but especially stronger in my case explicitly
those are narrative errors buddy, if you can't get seasons right why can't you get the time frame implications wrong? he himself says he forgots a lot of shit, you can't overlook that's genuine proof of this being in character and a high possibility, vs your argument which is just "hey the reverse could be true too" with no evidence
mine lines up with him as a writer, yours makes this fanfictionized version of kubo who's smart when you need him to be
he can list it to say its big without thinking of the actual implications like he did with the seretei when everyone and their mother covered country sized distances in less than a day, you're being incredulous about shit he has done
where's the natural intuition for hypoxia? LOLZ this gets funnier and funnier
you did do this but not at the time of me writing that so whatevs
I don't need to establish the chimney plumes, its fair game if nel's statement is fair game
as for hypoxia, this is ridiculous, do you legit think kubo thought his cast can survive space and only changed his mind in tybw? hell na, thats something you hold throughout the story (unless proven otherwise which you cant do due to no proof)
most people know mountain peaks have low oxygen, most people know going extremely beyond that area would make it even harder or remove oxygen, so yeah the layman can also think of those things, not the gotcha you think it is pal
the rule being displayed later has no bearing of any kind in regards to whether it should apply or not, like legit you're doing whataboutism, which is not valid here, if they cant stay true that's their fault
the rule being displayed later =/= kubo thinking his characters die in space later
those are different things, his natural intuition would still catch that
oh really? so does that mean you're good with the feats without statements being calced with the visuals and the ones with statements using statements? cuz that sure as hell is a step towards truthfulness lol
nice imgur gif bro, if I wanted to link one for y'all I'd add an image of a buffet the way you're picking & choosing which logic and which not to apply
Well this is very weak claim and the reverse sounds stronger, I actually made a whole section here writing about why it is true, until they get countered to I will keep linking this back to you because I'm stubborn like that heh, I'm gonna do this every god damn argument I made that you just gloss over even tho it directly discredits your argument
Well this part is funny because I didn't know you peered into Kubo's brain during 2007 and collected that information to determine what he intended, and that is obvious BS, the idea that "he used this because he WANTED to showcase size" argument was debunked by me right here
"Kubo intends for them to be big and only chooses the timeframe method to portray this"
We have seen Kubo list sizing values countless times in other places why not here?
We also have notable examples of Kubo being numerically precise when need be :
- Candice's attack had 5 giga joules
- Gin's Bankai is 500x the speed of the sound
- Yamamoto's Bankai allowing him to yield 15 Million Degrees Celsius
- Bankai multiplies combat capabilities by 5-10x
- Byakuya's ability letting him spawn a 100 million blades
- This reishi chainsaw vibrates at a rate of 3 million cycles per second
As you can see Kubo's style of writing isn't vague, when he wants for something to be xyz value in meters, joules or degrees celsius he will make sure to make it known with numerically precise statements so why can he not do the same with these structures, surely timeframe statements arent all he's capable of if he wanted to
Ofc it is theoretical, you get the size by making a calc with assumed speed and assumed stamina and assumed plain (straight line vs up and down) to come to a size, that's purely fan speculation and reliant on assumption, this is the very definition of theoretical
A practical value is the databook saying it's 10 km or whatever value it has, or a value you get from px scaling from visuals, because that isn't interpretive, you get a size and you don't get room to fluctuate, if kubo draws a rock to be 1:27 of the size of ichigo, you're stuck at that ratio till death, that's a strictly capped and confirmed value, because literally what happens on screen, what happens on screen is reality, what is stated by characters are in the end statements, the px scaling is quite literally the practical value
you also said it's direct, it's not direct if you have to infer the size, what's direct is Kubo saying Candice's attacks are 5 giga joules strong (lolz)
also let's talk about this part, you do realize, I don't set these things? it's set by the author and artist which happens to be the same man in our case. he chooses those and puts a strict single answer value, it is quite funny to see your arguments be the opposite of what reality is, how out of touch can fandom bias make someone is a funny observation
no no, not at all, I frame what is mere words from a character that needs interps as theoretical as it's not proven. visuals are quite literally defining what reality is
take this girl for example, is she as big as waybig or as big as a human? the latter right? how do you know this? because we see with our own eyes
Well who said that? if it's you then who are you to be the arbiter of what is & isn't valid? it's strange how everything you say contradicts common sense and logic as well as the very definition of the buzzwords you're spamming but I'm doing the reverse, that's silly bro
for the second part can you prove visual compression is happening here? I know you made a claim, I want you to prove this claim, don't just say commonly used lines in different flavours actually prove it because I did prove every god damn claim I made, I even showed the reverse evidence of this where we see close up shots of ulq having strongly similar ratios to zoomed out shots, there's an excuse for scenes where the structure is the focus and characters are inflated to be visible but when you have close ups like my imgur link compilation where the focus is the characters and the structure gets zoomed in and out of to fit the writer's will you don't really get that excuse, this is something that was debunked the second this thread was posted, it's wasteful to make these counter claims esp with no evidence
The coping gets funnier because you know deep down I never said that. What I said regarding those explicit numerical values is that 1) he CAN use employ them if he genuinely wanted to emphasize size, 2) it's not out of style/character for Kubo to do such a thing
what you did was try to frame them as if they are trying to achieve something else, that's fallacious my friend
Well not really, a databook statement would work, or he could find a way to insert that into the plot/manga , there's many narrative devices to do that, many used by Kubo himself, that's a terrible excuse, you bring up time being relevant we can say this is just made to steer ichigo into alternate routes via author intent, that's honestly more valid than assuming he did it to portray size, my guess is more reasonable than yours!
Sure brother, where is it? where is your speed statement for the type of people nel had in mind? where is your stamina statement? where is your slop confirmation?
where are these evidences? don't tell me you wanna make em' up? they don't exist because Kubo dgaf about size & just wanted ichigo to go in a certain direction for advancing the plot
Well this isn't true because we had close up shots with Ulquiorra & Ichigo focusing on them and zooming in and out whenever the scene needs it
this line of argument only works when someone wants to depict a structure and then they also wanna keep the characters but if let's say they don't care about showing the structure (proven by the zooming in and out) and their main priority are the characters, emotions, tension, dialogue then the case in bleach becomes the reverse of what that argument allows you to get away with as the intent is the reverse here
this is just a repeat of the args i alr tore apart so dismissed. unless the fluctuation is massive like the seretei this is a pointless complaint
no?
you wanna go deep, I'll go deep, you wanna swim on the surface?, I'll also swim on the surface, you don't get to evade the issues that exist both in the top and bottom
I also explained to why your argument was incorrect, funny I never saw a response to that
"oh but muh narrative" the narrative does not give a damn about this outside one scene as a plot device, it's not integral to the story the way the existence of mountains and training grounds were for the seretei, it's a throwaway statement made to justify ichigo going wherever kubo wants him to go, if you forget that scene the main story will not be affected in any meaningful manner. matter of fact go ask bleach fans in an anime convention or whatever if they remember this, they won't because it does not affect characters abilities, it does not affect aizen, orihime, ulquiorra any plot point, it might as well be a filler statement. the Art however will be remembered for years, it establishes scale & atmosphere and is very very integral to the worldbuilding, it is also Kubo's way of giving an explicit depiction of what his vision for the story
I agree on the implications on it being big but not 235 km level big, you can say that for any series, have a character shit their pants at how huge a structure is and then say the most outlandish size is needed because of narrative, that argument does not justify the timeframe wank at all
Nope, a path that takes you comparable amount of time
if im skipping curves, it'll save some time but not shave off like 9/10th of the time, that's way too big even from a layman's perspective so it's still grossly contradicted to the point of unsuability, Kubo did not care about the math he just wanted to incentivize ichigo and friends to go inside the seretei for more exploration and to cut down on time spent outside so readers can get to the real deal of the soul society.
Also a funny thing, inside the seretei, you're not moving in a straight line you're still zigzagging across due to needing to take street turns
Nope, they were in a rush buddy, the situation was dire in both cases, you think yoruichi is not gonna factor in how much fast they can move at? hell I've also proved with Orihime & Uryu's case that they were not running, they (most) dont have shunpo either so that argument gets thrown out of the window. Orihime also never displayed superhuman speeds in the series so she'd be assumed to have human travel speed, same with Hanataro who's fodder
i dont see how this is relevant, this does not solidify your case or weaken mine
bro just repeated the main argument tears
i agree it's plot relevant & not kubo wanting to depict the size of the seretei which he would have with a distance in km statement HEH
likewise dude
Oh yeah? go make a thread and apply it to other verses immediately, I'll even agree if the argument just uses this, matter of fact feel free to attack verses I like with this argument, they're naruto, transformers and percy jackson for reference, I'm all for transparency & consistency
go make that thread instead of trying to make excuses here
bet, remove every calc from bleach immediately, also remove the size that comes from nel's statement, yk the author isn't (provably) taking them into account, especially the calcs, you think kubo intended ulq to be close to a single petaton?
the same way the author didnt take the nel wank into account and drew Las Noches like he originally intended
you don't to tiptoe around this, every single time y'all rehash this dishonest line, i'm gonna bring this back up, because it's genuinely hypocritical.
they are, this is as in your face as humanly possible, it takes up the whole screen in these pages
this underlined section, I want you to prove this, you can't because it's just a lie
i agree it's big, but implications of big does not necessarily mean it has to be 235 km big, that's reaching
This is genuinely one of the most disingenuous thing I've seen from you, he can't induce effects on people stronger than him, this is proven by his inability to do so in the zaraki fight observation and the yhwach QnA, as GG55HH said, that's contradictory to everything we saw, it violates logic and thus is untrue on top of it being a claim with 0 evidence in the slightest hence this argument achieves nothing
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
yall please tell me you see the level of reaching this person is doing i had to laugh out loud
see Arkenis, when a normal person who doesn't have loyalty to inflating bleach sees and accepts the line of "kubo forgets shit & does not factor in a lot of things" the first idea that would pop up in their head in relevance to this thread is that he most likely may not factored in the size from travel time implications, but instead you wanna go the exact opposite route and list shit that isnt true,
I want you to understand how out of touch you sound, this line right here that I quoted from you is a self refuting argument, you can't show the full thing and still claim we are not shown the true display because we did get zoomed in AND zoomed out shots, the only conclusions I can draw from someone uttering an argument like this is that they have not read bleach or are biased at a level beyond comprehension that they forget basic sense
na lol, it does not hurt my argument and let me tell you why, why do many schools, colleges and universities enforce the need for labs? either labs or student placements, so they can get practical experience, aside from experience this is done because humans absorb info better when they are engaging with it instead of reading it, if you're a medical student it's easier to get info in your head if you're looking at a live heart or a non living model made to resemble one, things you touch, see, hear, you remember easier, you learn easier, your brain associates things with it easier than had you only stuck to studying from a book, this is human nature, this has been true since the dawn of time, so what you draw, the scale of what you draw, the atmosphere of what you draw is easier to remember than something as negligible & insignificant to the story as nel's statement, you have to remember how sand dunes volume works, it affects when characters go up and down, you have to remember the slopes the las noches has so we can remember if its spiky, or has lava, or is a flat plane, these things get ingrained into your brain far more and is more potent than a statement the story forgot after a single chapter, so there's absolutely more reason for Kubo to stick true to his intended size via art than a statement you will never in a million years prove he took into consideration by calcing what the result could be, you can't, unless you mischaracterize the guy you genuinely cannot.
Does not matter, if a rule is applied into the story it works from start to finish of the story, unless you're willing to concede that aizen is capped to 5 senses only in KS and does not get spiritual sensing until tybw, if kubo decides this shit is a rule in the story it's a rule from start to finish with no buts or ifs, you don't pick and choose when rules apply or not.
Prove this, prove kubo is ignoring physics to make it look cool even tho it does not look cool because visually it's not that big, so Im confused what "looked" cool to you
this is where your argument gets shot
to truly treat it as separate we must
- never calc a single feat from there because that is reliant on earth physics
- never index any scaling of any kind since the reishi works differently which might not grant the same strength of feats in WOL/SS
reishi and kishi are the same things just different physical components, the earth would also have less kishi particles in space inducing the same effect, this does not prove reishi substitutes oxygen, because we know what reishi is and it's not described as that & you'd need a statement for that as well
you're saying this to support the big sizes but would never agree to this if my thread started off with these lines asking to gut these calcs, another case of selective standards
are we deadass? my whole logic began on the fact that if we're gonna assume kubo factored in the 3 day shit he's gonna factor in atmosphere as well, if he's not gonna factor in the latter he's not gonna factor in the former either, I made this very clear idk why it has so many likes with people jumping all over like this is some gotcha when it's a blatant misunderstanding of my argument
honestly this is just ragebait and I almost said something I'd regret but please try to actually read and understand what I say instead of commiting the worst possible strawman in existence
Arkenis
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It wasn't meant as an excuse. It's to demonstrate to you, as most know this already, that every irl concept isn't 100% meant to restrict fictional worlds or hold us to some limitation on how we're to interpret every other aspect of the story. You aren't for transparency and consistency, you're just fine with burning everything else down so long as your main gripe gets fixed.
Reread what I said, because this isn't what you think it is. It's about your need to try and hold fiction to a strict use of real world stuff and act as though its 1 to 1 with a basic timeframe statement.
This doesn't show us the extent of its size, there's nothing to compare it to. And this is done to set a tone for the destruction of OSC and Lanza size far as I'm concerned and what you've failed to disprove.
That's how large structure art is handled. When you want to portray the true extent of size its often hard to do without using stated numbers or timeframes for travel. Try figuring out the size of something just eyeballing it with nothing to compare, you're going to fail. Again, something Kubo purposely did with Los Noches is put it as a lone structure in a desert.
He induced the effects of what space can do to a person in a space he created. He didn't directly apply it to Kenpachi, never argued for that.
I don't care much for Bleach scaling on the wiki so I have no loyalty to it. But regardless, this isn't just about Bleach. My first comment in the thread talked about it. The need to argue visuals over statements has always been a pretty bad aspect in the community, only being done to limit storytelling to just its visuals when it should be a balance.
If I zoom out to show you Earth, you do not have a true grasp on its size because you have no mental understanding on the size of it. This is the same for the zoomed out panels of Los Noches. The only real measurement we can apply to giant structures are numbers and words. How big is Earth's diameter? It's 12,756km. How big is the Moon's circumference? It's 10,917km. How far away is the Sun from Earth? It's 150 million km. You will never get a clear measurement of giant sizes from just pixel scaling, let alone pixel scaling art that constantly changes because the art isn't meant to be 100% every time.
Are we using engagement as a meaningless word? Because reading is engaging, conceptualizing the concepts of subjects is engaging yes? Memorization is engaging. Many things are engaging without a lab. Medical students read a ton. They aren't jumping into dissecting and touching organs, this goes for law and engineering fields too. So no I disagree, reading is as fundamental to most subjects as is the physical engagement.
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No, we don't. They aren't equal at all.
Knowing the difference between 3 days and 20 minutes is common sense. It's not "an assumption" to say Kubo has basic cognitive function.
Knowing complex atmospheric gas behavior is NOT common knowledge. Saying Kubo not only knew niche information about atmospheric gas behavior and decided to factor it into his manga actually is an assumption, while the former is NOT.
You keep saying stuff like "You guys don't know what was going through Kubo's head!" like we aren't saying the most basic common sense shit, meanwhile you're out here saying that Kubo was like "I better make sure the explosion clouds in my Manga about ghosts shooting lasers are scientifically accurate."
What are you even arguing here? You want me to prove that the Shonen battle manga ignores physics for looking cool? Because I might as well just link the whole manga to you if that's the case.
It's never that simple dawg. Sometimes, a series will establish something later in the story that wasn't brought up earlier because the writer simply hadn't thought of it yet. I'm sure you can find a bajillion verses that have done so on this wiki.
Kubo from 2001 doesn't know what Kubo from 2014 is gonna write.
Except we don't do it exactly 1:1 because we know that 99% of verses will either ignore certain rules of physics for their story or just not even think about them in the first place. We don't nickel and dime every verse we rate as FTL because they don't destroy everything around them when they move in combat.
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Even without all the context the 3 days walk distance here is just not usable IMO. Like, off a look at his profile he's very superhuman since the first key. So just using normal human speed is hiding a much higher and much more ludicrous result, while at the same time still using superhuman statistics to justify a higher value than what you'd normally get from the statement. It's just kind of an act of threading the needle so you get the highest possible result that doesn't completely break the established logic.
Either you account for superhuman statistics properly and the result is an indefinite "way higher" that could lead to a dozen times the size, or you accept that it'd be inconsistent to and use normal human travel speeds.
Either you account for superhuman statistics properly and the result is an indefinite "way higher" that could lead to a dozen times the size, or you accept that it'd be inconsistent to and use normal human travel speeds.
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I'd be fine with actually using normal human travel times, dividing the result by 2 or 3. Would you?
There are three bullet points of conflicts in that post, and you responded to half of the first one, acting as if the rest of it doesn't exist.
If you don't think "There are multiple castles in LN that aren't within visual distance of each other (one of which is an entire city), it needs a radius well beyond 4km" needs to be responded to, then I'm not sure what to say.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Closest I've got is the Kubo section of your earlier post, where in author's notes he mentioned that he accidentally said the series started in Summer, while also saying it was May; and where in a Q&A he mentions that he forgot to draw a wedding ring, and the location of Rangiku's mole.
I don't really see how you can sum this up as Kubo messing up statements while visuals are consistent.
I'm still fine with treating these as anti-feats.
That's true for some issues with visuals, but not for others. And it's also something that holds true for some issues with statements, and not for others.
Being able to notice that an arm looks really ****** up, doesn't mean you'd be able to notice some bad implied off-panel curvature, or that a smudge is 6 pixels instead of 0.2
It's not my scan, it came from this calc. When you open the Imgur link, it says it was posted in 2023.
Why accuse me of bullshit like this?
That doesn't cause enough of a discrepancy to resolve this issue.
The 1.8m value comes from ang sizing, but the 5.56m value doesn't.
A character going from being 2m tall, to being 1.4m tall, or 2.85m tall, would be quite the inconsistency actually. Most artists do avoid this sort of thing.
are you genuinely for real? the difference between those two are just what
(1.54−1.08)=0.46x difference
this is deadass tiny?
not remotely enough to qualify as massive fluctuation, this isn't inconsistency, you're literally reinforcing the idea that Kubo stayed true to a reasonable, this deadass works in my favour
At least, I couldn't say with a straight face that such visuals are "aggressively consistent". I'd more leave such a mantle for cases where it doesn't vary by more than ~5%.
If someone disagreeing with you makes you think they're part of a disingenuous cabal for a verse they've talked about maybe twice before in their life, then you should seriously challenge that thought process.
Sweet!Well there's not much to say for this one in particular, I didn't notice this one during my reads and now that it's brought to my attention I am fine conceding to it hence me not responding to it.
Well, as you say, consistency is important, and many staff members before have held up this sort of view that we should ignore friction, yet still calculate feats. Given how I still think that's a few steps before knowing the altitude where hypoxia occurs, I'd want even more significant changes to our standards before taking that as relevant evidence.
We're talking about knowing the altitude where hypoxia starts occurring.
Knowing that there's no air in space does not mean that you know the altitude where the reduction in air starts affecting people.
I don't think it's actually too common for megastructures to involve characters being concerned about air density.
Yeah, and one of the things they can pick, if they believe it's right, is where niche implications become too obscure to be of relevance.
How is "I tried a similar argument, with even more backing, and it was rejected, so I'm rejecting this one" an appeal to authority? That's just me recognising site standards and acting consistent with them.
I simply do not buy this reasoning that just because an author often uses explicit units, that whenever they don't, we should ignore it. It is an indication we can figure out all the same.
I'll leave that for you and Hellscream to nail down.
I mean that there were multiple methods used to estimate the size, and they all gave very similar results. 1472km from Yoruichi's statement, 1570km from Fade to Black's statement, and 1552km from the statement on how many districts are in it.
This helps my argument by showing that he seems to actually have an idea in mind of the size of places, even when not giving precise measurements.
Yeah, I just think you're misapplying that sort of reasoning here.
And I think this difference is significant enough that we should give the statement supremacy.
I wasn't asking someone to debunk it, I was asking M3X to respond to it.
Since I think staff kinda have an obligation to respond to arguments made in a thread. So after responding to one of M3X's arguments, not getting a response, seeing M3X reiterate the the same argument, while also saying that he and Damage were the only CGMs in the thread (ignoring not just myself, but Armorchompy, and Floxy), I got a bit miffed and explicitly made that request.
I have been giving reasoning this entire time. I've been providing evidence from the text, I've been explaining the logic and how it's consistent with how we operate in other areas.
There is still subjectivity despite that because you don't have to agree with our standards, or my weighting of evidence. And even when disagreeing with those subjective things, you can say which of those aspects of it you disagree with, why you think alternative standards are better, etc.
I think there's not much point. To actually check them, you'd need to measure it yourself. With the images I used, and how obvious it is which things I'd be comparing, it should be really easy to reverse engineer any you're curious about.
Plus this isn't a particularly serious matter that's going to make it into any real calculations.
I'd generally expect about a 20% margin of error, once it gets to ~50% I'd start ruling out ones that are less reliable, and once it gets to ~100% I'd start desperately looking for any sources that lack such an issue (guidebook statements, official character height charts, character statements, reasonable base assumptions).
Yeah it's just hard to tell with it extending off-screen, and the near-level view seriously minimising the curvature, making it hard to give a concrete estimate.
Ahhh okay. Yeah, that one is ~32m, then.
I don't understand what issue you're taking with this.
You think that me saying "We should look at this criteria when deciding how much to incorporate more niche real-world physics" contradicts me measuring whether some parts of a structure are consistently drawn in similar ratios?
As I mentioned earlier in the thread I don't think we should include outliers in averages (especially if we're doing the arithmetic mean instead of the geometric mean).
But ye, I think Nel's statement is too salient and different to be combined with those other methods.
Again, I'd point towards the issues Qawsedf234 mentioned earlier. It doesn't seem to be one statement, but a lot of incidental plot points and background details.
That image doesn't move me since we can't see anywhere near the full structure, and it again has the reference character being a tiny indistinct blob, which makes using them as a measuring stick more dodgy.you should be saying after viewing images like this (see below) that these would never take 3 days and it's a bunch of rubbish the the author did not factor in! goes both ways but especially stronger in my case explicitly
I'm not inclined to taint an author's statements so much over so little. Getting the start of a season off by one month, I can only assume such a thing happened by him mentioning it being summer and it being May in different scenes.
I wouldn't take that to believe his mental model is 40x off in how quickly people walk.
It is valid here, actually. What some call "whataboutism", others call "consistency".
idk, that does actually seem plausible to me. It's not exactly rare for authors to think of weaknesses/limitations/vulnerabilities later, that they accidentally indicated didn't exist in some minor scene 60 chapters earlier.
That's not my preferred way, but maybe it could work as a compromise if things end up being deadlocked.
Ghostimuscrime
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who told you kubo cared of either? or that kubo knows itll realistically take 20 minutes? every argument you have just presupposes your position as true without actually proving that to begin withKnowing the difference between 3 days and 20 minutes is common sense. It's not "an assumption" to say Kubo has basic cognitive function.
knowing lack of oxygen makes you suffer or lack of atmospheric pressure makes your blood boil is pretty common knowledge, the former is known by the most idiotic laymans, again you're choosing how deep you wanna go, it's either go full on deep or stay at the surface, go to your visuals
this is not what I said even once, are you arguments this garbage that you need to resort to misrepresenting me?
I actually explained this that I'm only matching your level of honesty instead of being an outward hypocrite, that's not cool my guy, I love how you keep ducking hypoxia and hyper focus on volume of gas part of the argument because you know deep down that makes your case look silly, the stuff I'm saying is way more aligned with common sense as explained in the second line in this response where as you think Kubo is gonna come to the same conclusion as you in your fanmade size calc, you think kubo is gonna think "oh **** this feat is 5 petatons, i wanted it to be 0.5 petatons lemme redraw everything"
it does not work, genuinely what is it gonna take you for to actually understand me calling out your hypocrisy instead of trying to project that back onto me
As expected you're ducking backing up the bold claims that you made earlier, I want you to prove that specific scenario had him ignore physics to look cool, I would love to see where it looks cool when you've (the pro bleach side) have been a strong proponent of "**** visuals worship statements" funnily contradictory
Don't take the easy way out, you wanna make claims you're gonna have to answer uncomfortable truths instead of hiding behind super generalized ideas, prove to me that specific scenario you replied to has him ignore physics to look cool
LMAO
what do y'all know about titty kubo, dude's had shit from before planned long ago
but I wanna talk about this specific example of his characters dying in space, why do you think he added that scene, I'll give you two options
1) he wanted to nerf shinigami physiology
2) he never had intended to make shinigami resist outer space and added that in his manga because he believes they can be victimized to natural things the same way he makes shinigami feel hurt in hot springs or get hurt from fall damage (Isshin) and he added this as it's what humans are vulnerable to carrying them over to shinigami because he's depicting them as humans with powers
occams razor supports the latter, because it ties in with other things he intended, the former however makes no sense
which means he always had this thought & idea, you would have to prove he wanted to nerf the cast for some reason and you have no proof for that
another thing I'm gonna add is if Kubo cannot stick true to his rules in some scenes, he can also not stick true to the Nel statement and just drop feats for a much smaller Las Noches, it goes both ways pal
We do 1:1 with explicit exceptions
you conveniently ignored the part where you don't get to calculate shit if Hueco Mundo physics is unreliable. Lotta verses show light speed travel & then not destroy shit around them, that's 1:1 with explicit exceptions, because you already have proven to have reached ftl via statements in many of those verses
so what is it? remove all calcs? they're reliant on physics, time is ticking boy wonder
That's a funny way of phrasing consistency lmfao, your attempt at demonstration clearly did not work, if those verse also have similar cases where they go into niche details to wank their numbers but ignore other niche details then they should 100% get torn apart.
Well I disagree and have argued for why it is close to the timeframe stuff, you have yet to prove Kubo did that calculation, you keep throwing around claims
You said they're not in your face, this is in your face, a full page dedicated to the structure is in your face, you said it's not what the author intends to show for size but that can be fixed with a distance statement so you can't make that claim either
you know what is not in your face? a calculation you need to make to figure out the size with assumptions for factors you also need to figure out
you want something to show the extent of the size? sure you have this and this
Nope you can 100% do that, naruto and one piece are proof of this, you can also show planetary curvatures, you can also show clouds being surpassed, you can show mountains being dwarfed, you can show multiple steps of ratios, there's endless creativity to be had in the visual medium, that's a horrible excuse
also its funny you say yes to stated numbers, if its a need where kubo actively desires to show the size he's more than free to list a value in km, he didn't do that cuz he dont gaf and you know why he drops timeframe statements? so he can use it as a narrative device to make characters go in a certain direction and make it make sense without going for the sake of it, that was his intention, not size depiction, that's something you made up because you want the big sizes
He did it because he's stronger, he couldnt with zaraki because he was weaker
you keep tiptoeing around this
sure bro totally
wrong again, you can do this, you can get an idea of how big it is by zooming out from the streets and making them turn tiny and having them be much smaller in comparison
Another strawman, I never said **** reading and **** statements, I said one is a more superior form of engagement, medical students read but they don't only read, engineering schools dont cap you out to just textbooks, they have labs for you to work in, because it is a superior medium
gonna respond to the rest a lil later but would you prefer i add this as one of the ends in the voting poll?
so you're rejecting it based off of being an outlier? then should it not be discarded entirely?
responding to the rest in a bit
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It's much better than the current interpretation. I still kinda feel like the visuals are to be prioritized though.
Ghostimuscrime
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Most people won't see it as it's buried deep in my paragraphs but I am open to getting an averaged value for compromise that includes both the visual calcs and the statement, that way you'd be giving importance to both instead of favouring one above the other
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You still feel that way, even with how visual elements of that structure can vary between scenes (typically by 2x, but in some extreme cases up to 14x for some relevant parts)?
I do just think this route sucks since averaging like that gives way too much weight to the outliers.
Geometric mean is a bit better, median is ideal. But really I think such discrepancies prove that there's something we should exclude before going any further.
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I think if stuff varies and scope is generally inconsistent, we should probably stick with a more conservative calc. But honestly 1.5x is actually pretty small variance, hand-drawn artwork is inevitably going to be a little bit inconsistent and these add up. And yeah, 14x is another thing... but it's nowhere near the gap between the visual size (no matter which visual size) and the current assumption.
Ghostimuscrime
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for the 14x version you did say the method is wonky and didn't wanna count as you had to extrapolate a circle
excluding that one would give us a really reasonable range, much closer to each other than the huge discrepancy made by Nel
mind elaborating on how this differs from regular mean?
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Fair enough then.
(Although, 14x is kinda near the gap. The current gap is 43x, and if we take a more conservative estimate of walking speed, it could actually be only 14x bigger than the core visual estimate)
That was one of the 14x ones (which I ignored because of that wonkiness); I was referring to the dome thickness discrepancy.
Instead of adding the values and dividing by the amount of values; you multiply the values and raise the result to the inverse power of the amount of values.
Arithmetic mean of 2, 2, 2000 is 668 (2004/3); geometric mean of those numbers is 20 (8000^0.333).
Arithmetic mean of 2, 2000, 3000 is 1667; geometric mean of those numbers is 229.
Arithmetic mean of nine 5s, and one 250 is 29.5; geometric mean of those numbers is 7.4
Arithmetic mean of nine 250s, and one 5 is 225.5; geometric mean of those numbers is 170
While the arithmetic mean ignores a small outlier being added quite well, it gets absolutely demolished by the inverse. Geometric mean overall has a lower relative error across many kinds of series.
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Right, but usually it's not around 14x, right? If it's in the realm of like, 1.5 to 3x it's decently consistent. Ish.
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He wrote it into his story for a reason to establish that Las Noches is big and that the gang didn't have time to mess around. Knowing the difference between a 3-day walk and a 20-minute walk is common sense. It is not an assumption to assume Kubo knows something that every functioning person knows.
I'm not "choosing how deep" I wanna go, I'm literally addressing what's in your blog. Knowing the exact way gas clouds should look at high altitudes and how high up you need to be for hypoxia to happen is objectively not common knowledge. Knowing the difference between 3-days and 20 minutes is very common knowledge. They aren't equally valid assumptions.
How was I ducking the hypoxia argument? I literally addressed it.
I've been saying that the calc you provided doesn't fit with the narrative. Considering he went out of his way to establish that LN was both A massive and B took multiple days to walk around, I doubt he'd agree that a normal human could cross it in 15-20 minutes.
What is much more likely is that he just wasn't thinking about it at the time while writing it. Which happens a lot in fiction.
Also, Kubo having one of the biggest plot points of the series in his head from the beginning doesn't mean he would have every minor detail of his story in his head years in advance.
Brother what rule? The hypoxia thing hadn't even been established yet. Kubo not following something he made up years later doesn't invalidate something he stated during this arc.
Clearly not what I'm saying. I'm talking about how certain rules of physics that logically most authors aren't thinking about are ignored. How smoke clouds would behave at high altitudes is one of those.
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I'm not sure if this was addressed in the Bible exchanges going on here but I brought this up before and didn't get a direct reply so I'll ask again.
If we do prioritize the statement based size under the explanation that visuals are too inconsistent to be used, why in the hell would we EVER even consider using the visuals for calculations?
You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't say visuals are too inconsistent to use and then use them for calculations.
If we do prioritize the statement based size under the explanation that visuals are too inconsistent to be used, why in the hell would we EVER even consider using the visuals for calculations?
You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't say visuals are too inconsistent to use and then use them for calculations.
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What's the reason why superhuman statistics would affect "walking speed"? it specifically talk about walking speed, and we see them walking pretty much... normally all the time, so no effort, why would the author think they walk and inhumanly fast speed, in that case he would have mentioned running speed which has way more variable things and can be extremely higher.
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Pretty much every admin/mod that agreed to keep the distance by statements, also agree to not use pixel scaling. So the calcs that use pixel scaling would be removed.
Ghostimuscrime
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as someone who's has read every post here thoroughly and dropped bibles myself
80% of the arguments in them are doing EXACTLY that, selective standards, pushing the idea that kubo is a mastermind when making the nel statement but a moronic dumbfuc in everything else
actually they were in a rushful situation the statement probably encompasses running as well because renji also says we don't have days despite the urgency of the situation which would make em run anyway, funnily enough this exact logic was used by arc when trying to push the size to be bigger by assuming running
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My idea's that the statements are less liable to accidentally drift away from the author's intentions than visuals are.
Visuals can fill in information that statements alone don't give. Which is often helpful for calcs. Like using anime adaptations for a timeframe, instead of assuming one, or calling it uncalcable.
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That depends on what the statement is ngl.
Do you think Kubo set down and went "yes this is 230 kilometers wide, so let me calculate how many days it would exactly take to travel"?
If it's a one-off statement vs multiple visuals I'd say the visuals are more likely to be what the author was intending.
Okay but the visuals in this case are deemed too inconsistent to use.
Yeah visuals can fill in information in most cases but here you're explicitly arguing AGAINST their reliability. Therefore the information they "fill in" is just unreliable.
I mean yeah, but the same applies for anime adaptations. If the adaptation is deemed unreliable we wouldn't use it for a timeframe or for different angles and whatnot.
Same way an adaptation deemed unreliable/inconsistent wouldn't be used for calculations, if the LN visuals are deemed inconsistent they shouldn't be used either.
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I think he thought "Hmm, how long might it take to walk partway around? Probably a few days." And that such a thought would be completely incompatible with a diameter of 2-5km.
I think it takes quite a lot of unreliability for something made by the original author to be completely unusable due to that fact alone.
In the case of actual adaptations, they get less charitability. In that regard, I'd say it's more like a guidebook (I didn't use this earlier since those are less useful for filling in values).
Ghostimuscrime
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the writer himself does not respect his own statements when he makes several characters move distances that supposedly take 10 days in less than a single day's time
we don't have to respect it either, it's obvious the dude adds them as throwaway statements without caring for the repercussions that arise
we don't have to respect it either, it's obvious the dude adds them as throwaway statements without caring for the repercussions that arise
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Why wouldn't they? The context for this is that they're in a rush to get there, no? It doesn't take much for them to be moving quite a bit faster than the calc implies, even just jogging could be done at superhuman speeds.
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That's why I disagree with Arc, running thing makes no sense to actually calc, what matter here is Nel's interpretation only because 1) She is the one explaining the distance 2) She is the only one to know Las Noches at that point, a character that lives in Las Noches; so she is simply using walking speed as reference to gauge the distance, it is that simple.actually they were in a rushful situation the statement probably encompasses running as well because renji also says we don't have days despite the urgency of the situation which would make em run anyway, funnily enough this exact logic was used by arc when trying to push the size to be bigger by assuming running
Ghostimuscrime
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When Nel say "it is only 3 days of walk" she didn't know they were in a rush, she didn't know ichigo didn't had 3 days, she didn't know they had to run, she is simply talking from her experience because she lives in las noches. And 3 days of WALK simply means, 3 days of walk. What matter here is Nel's interpretation only.
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Is Nel superhuman?
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That's assuming he even gave the size that much thought. And if he cared so much about the size it would make no sense for him to draw visuals so inconsistent with it.
Okayyy…? Isn't that level of unreliability exactly what you're arguing here?
You're arguing they're so incredibly unreliable that we should completely dismiss them in favor of a one-off statement treated mostly as a joke.
If that's your stance you should be completely against the use of LNs visuals for calculations.
Doesn't the same thing apply? If a guidebook is inconsistent or unreliable they don't get used.
What you're saying works individually but they're mutually exclusive. We can't use inconsistent/unreliable sizes for calculations. Arguing they're juuuuust consistent enough to use for huge calc upgrades but not even remotely consistent enough to disregard a SINGLE statement is honestly just absurd.
This is just trying to have your cake and eat it.
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She does not even have stats on her profile because that is the most nerfed state of her. Regardless, I can assure you that kid Nel walks normally, the same speed as a normal human would. Even Soul Reaper do.
She genuinely had no idea they did not have three days to walk there, because of the urgency, so she was simply proposing that they walk there. It is that simple.
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Can you assure me? If they're all superhumans then why do you think that
But, fair enough on the rest. I do think this means the distance should be recalc'd though if nothing else. Regarding the actual size issues, I'd still like to see where the discussion goes.
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I'm not as familiar with the source material, so forgive me if it's obvious by being more familiar with it.
But why did you post this album and say it indicates Ichigo went from the 11th division to the center in a single day? And similarly, why did you say this scan indicated a similar timeframe? And how does this scan say it's the third day since they got into the Seretei?
We get a size inconsistent with the visuals by scaling tiny blobs to megastructures over multiple panels.
That ends up inconsistent with the stated size because he wants to show that it's large, by having a known smaller thing as reference (a character to a pillar, a pillar to the whole complex), but you can't identify these things unless they're at least a few pixels large, which is just enough to put things off.
It's not that they're so incredibly unreliable that they play second-fiddle to an already terrible piece of evidence.
It's just that it's easier for unintentional mistakes to slip through. It's hard to say "three days walk" when you mean "two hours walk", it's much easier to draw the proportions off.
Or maybe you're just underestimating how much unreliability I'd need to completely dismiss something worked on by the original creator? Like, honestly, unless there were clear indications of it being an AU, I cannot imagine a level of unreliability that I'd need to completely disqualify the use of something like that.
?????
I'd think they could still be used for fleshing out some things from the source material, even if not for introducing new things, as long as the source material doesn't contradict the thing being used.
We don't have to use the most stupid ends for calcs. We can look for the most reasonable shots (largest panels, most detailed, largest measuring stick(s), measured objects being most similar distance from the PoV, least usage of angsizing). I'm not asking us to turn our brains off. Heck, I've criticised some of the dumb decisions the existing calcs have made (averaging 2m, 6m, 1630m, 3103m, and 3433m to get a "fair" size for the object of 1635m; what the ****!?!?!?)
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Uhh no not really? There's many panels where human sized characters are blatantly visible neat the columns. Not as small specks or anything but with blatantly distinguishable features and whatnot. This is not a case of them just being visible as a small speck either to show where they are or that the panels are huge.
This would work if the characters were only visible as small specks but that's just not the case whatsoever.
Is it?
I find it much simpler for a random statement that was given no importance to be off than to "accidentally" draw a kilometer wide pillar as 10 meters wide.
I'm not, I'm against dismissing the visuals. I'm all for using the visuals.
You're saying they're unreliable. I'm just expecting consistency. Either they're too unreliable to use or not, you can't pretend they're unreliable when determining the size of LN but suddenly act like they're reliable when determining the size of a feat near LN.
But you're literally saying we should do that. YOU are saying we should disqualify the use of visuals when determining the size of Las Noches.
What I'm saying is that if we deem the visuals as inconsistent we shouldn't use them for calculations. Just like with everything we deem too inconsistent for size measurements.
What?
Except they DO contradict it here. That's why YOU deemed them too inconsistent to use for the size measurements.
So if they're too inconsistent why would you use them for calculations? Either they're consistent and reliable or they're not. You can't have your cake and eat it, you can't say they're too inconsistent to consider for size measurements but then say they're consistent enough for size measurements. Those are mutually exclusive opinions.
Yet you're arguing in favor of using the visuals of Las Noches to get the size of certain feats AND against using the visuals of Las Noches to get the size of it.
Either we use the visuals of Las Noches for size measurements or we don't. No in between
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But Ichigo thought it was an illusion because they couldn't make any progress getting even close to it despite running till they were exhausted
Hellscream
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Your arguments fundamentally fail, simply because it applies inconsistent standards to different types of evidence, and misrepresents how scaling works in context.who told you kubo cared of either? or that kubo knows itll realistically take 20 minutes? every argument you have just presupposes your position as true without actually proving that to begin with
knowing lack of oxygen makes you suffer or lack of atmospheric pressure makes your blood boil is pretty common knowledge, the former is known by the most idiotic laymans, again you're choosing how deep you wanna go, it's either go full on deep or stay at the surface, go to your visuals
this is not what I said even once, are you arguments this garbage that you need to resort to misrepresenting me?
I actually explained this that I'm only matching your level of honesty instead of being an outward hypocrite, that's not cool my guy, I love how you keep ducking hypoxia and hyper focus on volume of gas part of the argument because you know deep down that makes your case look silly, the stuff I'm saying is way more aligned with common sense as explained in the second line in this response where as you think Kubo is gonna come to the same conclusion as you in your fanmade size calc, you think kubo is gonna think "oh **** this feat is 5 petatons, i wanted it to be 0.5 petatons lemme redraw everything"
it does not work, genuinely what is it gonna take you for to actually understand me calling out your hypocrisy instead of trying to project that back onto me
As expected you're ducking backing up the bold claims that you made earlier, I want you to prove that specific scenario had him ignore physics to look cool, I would love to see where it looks cool when you've (the pro bleach side) have been a strong proponent of "**** visuals worship statements" funnily contradictory
Don't take the easy way out, you wanna make claims you're gonna have to answer uncomfortable truths instead of hiding behind super generalized ideas, prove to me that specific scenario you replied to has him ignore physics to look cool
LMAO
what do y'all know about titty kubo, dude's had shit from before planned long ago
but I wanna talk about this specific example of his characters dying in space, why do you think he added that scene, I'll give you two options
1) he wanted to nerf shinigami physiology
2) he never had intended to make shinigami resist outer space and added that in his manga because he believes they can be victimized to natural things the same way he makes shinigami feel hurt in hot springs or get hurt from fall damage (Isshin) and he added this as it's what humans are vulnerable to carrying them over to shinigami because he's depicting them as humans with powers
occams razor supports the latter, because it ties in with other things he intended, the former however makes no sense
which means he always had this thought & idea, you would have to prove he wanted to nerf the cast for some reason and you have no proof for that
another thing I'm gonna add is if Kubo cannot stick true to his rules in some scenes, he can also not stick true to the Nel statement and just drop feats for a much smaller Las Noches, it goes both ways pal
We do 1:1 with explicit exceptions
you conveniently ignored the part where you don't get to calculate shit if Hueco Mundo physics is unreliable. Lotta verses show light speed travel & then not destroy shit around them, that's 1:1 with explicit exceptions, because you already have proven to have reached ftl via statements in many of those verses
so what is it? remove all calcs? they're reliant on physics, time is ticking boy wonder
That's a funny way of phrasing consistency lmfao, your attempt at demonstration clearly did not work, if those verse also have similar cases where they go into niche details to wank their numbers but ignore other niche details then they should 100% get torn apart.
Well I disagree and have argued for why it is close to the timeframe stuff, you have yet to prove Kubo did that calculation, you keep throwing around claims
You said they're not in your face, this is in your face, a full page dedicated to the structure is in your face, you said it's not what the author intends to show for size but that can be fixed with a distance statement so you can't make that claim either
you know what is not in your face? a calculation you need to make to figure out the size with assumptions for factors you also need to figure out
you want something to show the extent of the size? sure you have this and this
Nope you can 100% do that, naruto and one piece are proof of this, you can also show planetary curvatures, you can also show clouds being surpassed, you can show mountains being dwarfed, you can show multiple steps of ratios, there's endless creativity to be had in the visual medium, that's a horrible excuse
also its funny you say yes to stated numbers, if its a need where kubo actively desires to show the size he's more than free to list a value in km, he didn't do that cuz he dont gaf and you know why he drops timeframe statements? so he can use it as a narrative device to make characters go in a certain direction and make it make sense without going for the sake of it, that was his intention, not size depiction, that's something you made up because you want the big sizes
He did it because he's stronger, he couldnt with zaraki because he was weaker
you keep tiptoeing around this
sure bro totally
wrong again, you can do this, you can get an idea of how big it is by zooming out from the streets and making them turn tiny and having them be much smaller in comparison
Another strawman, I never said ** reading and ** statements, I said one is a more superior form of engagement, medical students read but they don't only read, engineering schools dont cap you out to just textbooks, they have labs for you to work in, because it is a superior medium
gonna respond to the rest a lil later but would you prefer i add this as one of the ends in the voting poll?
so you're rejecting it based off of being an outlier? then should it not be discarded entirely?
responding to the rest in a bit
First, timeframe statements like Nel's "3 day" or Yoruichi's "10 day" walk are not vague or unreliable.
They're numerical measurements. He provided us with a fixed duration, with a defined method of travel which is walking in this case. Both of these provide us a perfectly usable indication of it's distance.
It's a standard way of conveying scale in both fictional, and in real life contexts.
Bleach is not the only verse that utilizes a "3 day" or "1 week" walk.
Dismissing statements such as these, while accepting numerical values like temperature, energy, speed etc etc is a false equivalence as i already elaborated upon.
These examples refer to completely different measurement categories, Attack power of temperature has nothing to do with whether travel tive can be used to estimate distance or not.
Second, like i already explained prior as well your reliance on visuals as "primary evidence" is methodologically flawed lol.
Pixel scaling in manga especially is inherently inconsistent due to everything i already pointed out earlier.
It's also been explained how it is relevant.
Your own calcs literally demonstrate this, and a dome to wall ratio of 0.5 is not "minimal" it's a varation of over 40%, however you don't care simply because it doesn't support your argument. Your entire argument relies on visual "consistency" from that outside view, without considering the inside that would make it logically impossible to be of such minimal size, this also simply supports the visual compression, and makes the most logical sense.
And btw, you already agreed that your own proposed calc is not logical in context.
So no , we cannot treat these visuals as more reliable than explicit narrative statements.
Btw, your AI calculation is not what you actually proposed or said, it simply shows the difference between traveling across the curve, along the edge, noth to the center.
Not that it matters, because like stated, Yoruichi specifically refers to walking. Ichigo is shown running.
Yet again, the atmospheric arguments are not even worth addressing.
In the end you literally agreed that your calculation is not logical, and does not make sense in the story itself.
Agreeing to this in any way shape or form, means that you inherently agree with visual inconsistencies.
If you actually do think its "larger" than your calc, then it throws your entire thread into the garbage bin, because it's completely reliant on visuals, it's either A or B, not A and B.
these cannot be mutually exclusive.
Arkenis
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It was shown in the previous crt for LN size.
Ichigo leaves before Nel does. Despite this, Nel catches up to Ichigo and she even blitzes Ichigo with her Super Acceleration ability.
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