Kingdom Heart cosmology

[Thanganimator]

Well, I know almost nothing about this verse, but my friend asked me to, so yeah.
"From Sora's perspective, Quadratum is an underworld, a fictional world that is different from reality, Nomura said. "But from the point of view of the inhabitants on the Quadratum side, the world of Quadratum is reality, and the world where Sora and the others were is the other side, the fictional world."
Source: https://www.famitsu.com/news/202204/14257987.html

And here: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/k...ore-realistic-design/1100-6502504/?utm_source

Essentially, he meant that it wasn't a lower dimension.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

following

 

[Thanganimator]

That means my friend meant that it's actually R>F, not R<F. But yeah, Idk anythings about this.

 

[Bobsican]

The current policy for paradoxical states of being real and fictional at the same time leans on it being treatable either way depending on how it's actually covered in-verse, so with that in mind it's not really a concern for our purposes right now per-say as then we'd go back to the known context leaning to this whole deal having a whole deal of R>F layers as explained here, if anything the question would be on if this actually should be "minus High 1-A" given that it does appear to feature a qualitatively inferior R>F set (the Sleeping Worlds), then a qualitatively inferior structure to it (Station of Awakening / Final World), and then something that is specifically seen as fictional by this (Quadratum).

I'd have wanted to update the blog as the "-1-A" stuff is outdated, but the before-mentioned "-High 1-A" stuff is yet to be accepted (it's currently "-1-A" because this was settled prior to the Tiering System change that introduced the concept of qualitative layers over just equating R>F and the like to spatial dimensions), so thoughts on this while at it are welcome.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

Biggest issue with Quad stuff is that we literally know Jack shit (with a side of **** all) about it.

It being below the infinite set of dreams and the SoA leads me to believe it’s R>F. However this could very easily be changed once either KH4 releases in 10 years or when Missing link releases two years ago.

 

[Thanganimator]

The current policy for paradoxical states of being real and fictional at the same time leans on it being treatable either way depending on how it's actually covered in-verse, so with that in mind it's not really a concern for our purposes right now per-say as then we'd go back to the known context leaning to this whole deal having a whole deal of R>F layers as explained here, if anything the question would be on if this actually should be "minus High 1-A" given that it does appear to feature a qualitatively inferior R>F set (the Sleeping Worlds), then a qualitatively inferior structure to it (Station of Awakening / Final World), and then something that is specifically seen as fictional by this (Quadratum).

I'd have wanted to update the blog as the "-1-A" stuff is outdated, but the before-mentioned "-High 1-A" stuff is yet to be accepted (it's currently "-1-A" because this was settled prior to the Tiering System change that introduced the concept of qualitative layers over just equating R>F and the like to spatial dimensions), so thoughts on this while at it are welcome.

Basically, my friend wants that Quadratum or whatever place it is, not a place located beneath the structure of reality, but rather a High1A structure or something that I don't understand.

 

[Bobsican]

For Quadratum to be "proper" High 1-A that'd require for the baseline reality (the basis used as a perspective to determine what's tier 1 or 11 in relation to it) to start from Quadratum itself, and while the plotline of Quadratum being real and also not may lean on that direction, we lack the details and thus are forced to just stick to treating the mainline setting the series starts with as that. It's arbitrary and all, but it's either this or treating 99% of verses as tier 1 just because dreams and fictional media exist.

 

[Thanganimator]

For Quadratum to be "proper" High 1-A that'd require for the baseline reality (the basis used as a perspective to determine what's tier 1 or 11 in relation to it) to start from Quadratum itself, and while the plotline of Quadratum being real and also not may lean on that direction, we lack the details and thus are forced to just stick to treating the mainline setting the series starts with as that. It's arbitrary and all, but it's either this or treating 99% of verses as tier 1 just because dreams and fictional media exist.

My friend replied like this:

"The fact that Quadratum is said to view Sora's world as mere fiction already pushes it beyond a 2D structure.
Furthermore, since Sora dreamed up an entire world, he reaches High 1-A tiering with R>F (Reality > Fiction) transcendence.
Yet, Quadratum is still able to contain him.
Scaling down from reality to fiction is an anti-feat in itself, which would be an anti-feat for the R>F transcedent.
The simplest explanation is that Quadratum isn't fiction either; it is a 'real' world that simply perceives Sora's world as fiction."

 

[Vietthai96]

What? High 1-A Kingdom Hearts meta?. I'm in

 

[Thanganimator]

Lol

What? High 1-A Kingdom Hearts meta?. I'm in

 

[Bobsican]

Whether Quadratum contains Sora's cosmology to begin with is up in the air and if anything the currently known information of the cosmology leans towards the exact opposite. Ultimately we're dealing at best with paradoxes and thus have to lean back to the known information as said before.

 

[Thanganimator]

Whether Quadratum contains Sora's cosmology to begin with is up in the air and if anything the currently known information of the cosmology leans towards the exact opposite. Ultimately we're dealing at best with paradoxes and thus have to lean back to the known information as said before.

Alright, my friend responded like this:

"How can you lean toward the opposite when Nomura himself stated that Quadratum isn't an fiction, but reality?
Furthermore, Quadratum doesn't need to encompass Sora's entire cosmological system; it only needs to contain Sora himself. This is because Sora is already a being from a higher dimension. Moving from a higher dimension (Reality) down to Fiction is an anti-feat in itself, which could potentially downgrade the entire High 1-A or "–High-1A" Kingdom Hearts cosmology to 2-B or 2-A.
Interpreting it as Quadratum not being an fiction explains why it can contain Sora without being hit by that anti-feat.'"

 

[Bobsican]

Uh no, moving from reality to fiction is not an inherent anti-feat for R>F, the usual problem is when the opposite (going from fiction to an higher reality) happens without a justification that still respects the implications of a proper R>F, and with the way hearts in KH work there's enough room for that to be argued to be the case. All of that said, that sort of arguments are being kept for a future thread, so if you're going to lean on that direction it'd be best to wait in that case (rushing the topic and its research wouldn't be ideal, after all).

 

[KingTempest]

No way...

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

So um... Why isn't your friend the one here, posting the revision, and arguing for this? Instead, he's using you to argue for him. That's kinda weird I won't lie.

Anyways, just to add on-

"How can you lean toward the opposite when Nomura himself stated that Quadratum isn't an fiction, but reality?

This statement is treating what Nomura said as a iron clad, irrefutable fact of the cosmology, but what he really said was:

"But from the point of view of the inhabitants on the Quadratum side, the world of Quadratum is reality, and the world where Sora and the others were is the other side, the fictional world."

Which isn't actually saying either way that "Yes, this is reality", but rather, "both sides think they themselves are reality". Which yeah, obviously, if you have a situation like this, cases are both the lower on scale, and higher on scale, inhabitants of worlds will consider themselves to be in reality. Just because a world and it's inhabitants considers itself reality doesn't inherently mean it is real; Most every single verse treats itself in this manner, yet we obviously understand that we, ourselves, are real (ignoring certain specific philosophies and belief's and rather going with what the general public understands, naturally)

 

[Thanganimator]

So um... Why isn't your friend the one here, posting the revision, and arguing for this? Instead, he's using you to argue for him. That's kinda weird I won't lie.

He didn't know how to create an account; I tried to guide him, but his account was still rejected. Besides, isn't it strange that I, a long-time Looney Tunes supporter, am posting a CRT about this?

 

[Ebihara]

Its not agasint the rules if the user isnt banned. If i understand the thread where the rules where setup for proxy users properly.

 

[Thanganimator]

Uh no, moving from reality to fiction is not an inherent anti-feat for R>F, the usual problem is when the opposite (going from fiction to an higher reality) happens without a justification that still respects the implications of a proper R>F, and with the way hearts in KH work there's enough room for that to be argued to be the case. All of that said, that sort of arguments are being kept for a future thread, so if you're going to lean on that direction it'd be best to wait in that case (rushing the topic and its research wouldn't be ideal, after all).

"Anyway, let's leave that for the future to decide.

However, I want to point out a few things: both moving from Reality down to Fiction and vice versa can trigger an anti-feat.
The difference between R>F and Mathematical Dimensions is that the mere act of descending to a lower plane is, in itself, an anti-feat.
The fact that Sora could even enter and exist within Quadratum is already mind-boggling. Moreover, we have the Master of Masters, who can travel between both worlds; this breaks the rules of R>F even more drastically.

I agree there are ways to 'bypass' these rules—for instance, if there’s an object capable of pulling a higher reality down, or if a lower entity is brought up by the power of a higher-dimensional being. But it seems the cases of Sora and the Master of Masters don't fit either of those scenarios.

Ultimately, we have to wait until Kingdom Hearts 4 is released. Quadratum's tiering remains 'Inconclusive' for now, but I personally don't think it can sit at a –High 1-A level. It’s more likely to be a 3D or 4D structure at best."

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

However, I want to point out a few things: both moving from Reality down to Fiction and vice versa can trigger an anti-feat.
The difference between R>F and Mathematical Dimensions is that the mere act of descending to a lower plane is, in itself, an anti-feat.
The fact that Sora could even enter and exist within Quadratum is already mind-boggling. Moreover, we have the Master of Masters, who can travel between both worlds; this breaks the rules of R>F even more drastically.

I agree there are ways to 'bypass' these rules—for instance, if there’s an object capable of pulling a higher reality down, or if a lower entity is brought up by the power of a higher-dimensional being. But it seems the cases of Sora and the Master of Masters don't fit either of those scenarios.

No.

 

[Thanganimator]

No.

"This requires looking at many different scenarios.

Regarding the case where a 'Real' entity creates a 'Fiction' and then enters it, Ultima explains that the 'Real' entity might have the ability to alter its state of reality to fit within it. However, that is just one specific possibility among many; it’s not a default rule that is always true.

The core nature of R>F (Reality over Fiction) is that it transcends the lower planes entirely. In Ultima's case, they avoid an anti-feat only because of specific 'Real' hax. Normally, without such hax, it would definitely be considered an anti-feat.

As for Sora, there isn't a single line of dialogue suggesting he can alter his own structure or the structure of the world, so that logic doesn't apply here.

Even for the Master of Masters, there is zero proof that he can transform himself to fit into Quadratum."

I'm boring now.

 

[Bobsican]

Note how Ultima didn't really reply as if the default is an anti-feat, case in point he notes that it has to be portrayed "in a very wacky way" to count as one, and the burden of proof on that would fall on you.

 

[Thanganimator]

Note how Ultima didn't really reply as if the default is an anti-feat, case in point he notes that it has to be portrayed "in a very wacky way" to count as one, and the burden of proof on that would fall on you.

"The example you gave is a bit different from Sora's case, but the core issue remains the same: a 'Real' entity residing within 'Fiction.'

According to R>F terminology, if a 'Real' being is confined within a fictional medium, it no longer qualifies as true R>F transcendence.

Furthermore, the fact that the Master of Masters can freely travel from Quadratum to Sora's world already breaks the fundamental law that 'Fiction cannot ascend to Reality' without a specific explanation. And as of now, we have absolutely no evidence showing how or why the Master of Masters is able to 'ascend' to Reality like that."

 

[Bobsican]

A staff member knowledgeable on qualitative layer stuff already clarified otherwise here while also citing Ultima, so this just comes off as an opinated take over something justified within the site's standards (given the lack of evidence / citations). At this point just waiting for further staff feedback would be best.

 

[Thanganimator]

A staff member knowledgeable on qualitative layer stuff already clarified otherwise here while also citing Ultima, so this just comes off as an opinated take over something justified within the site's standards (given the lack of evidence / citations). At this point just waiting for further staff feedback would be best.

"Simply put, Ultima is examining various scenarios to see if a 'Real' entity descending into 'Fiction' triggers an anti-feat, offering ways to preserve R>F—such as using character hax or similar mechanics.

However, the R>F terminology already addresses this: 'The author character completely live in the fictional medium themselves. For example the author character might have a book that contains the world, but the author themselves are also a character in it and don't exist outside it any more than other characters of that world.'

The idea of Fiction 'containing' Reality is fundamentally impossible, as stated on the wiki.
If a 'Real' being can freely descend into 'Fiction' without any external support or mechanism—just moving down while maintaining their full essence—then what is the actual difference between Fiction and Reality? Why bother distinguishing between Qualitative and Quantitative superiority if the gap is so negligible that both 'Real' and 'Fictional' beings can traverse higher or lower realities at will?"
Sorry for this wall of text.

 

[Vietthai96]

Can someone summarise the argument for me?

 

[Thanganimator]

Can someone summarise the argument for me?

The core of my argument summarized as follows:

"If a 'Real' being can descend into 'Fiction' without external mechanics while maintaining their full essence, the qualitative gap between Reality and Fiction (R>F) vanishes, rendering the distinction between them meaningless."

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

No.

no.

 

[Bobsican]

Uh no, moving from reality to fiction is not an inherent anti-feat for R>F, the usual problem is when the opposite (going from fiction to an higher reality) happens without a justification that still respects the implications of a proper R>F, and with the way hearts in KH work there's enough room for that to be argued to be the case. All of that said, that sort of arguments are being kept for a future thread, so if you're going to lean on that direction it'd be best to wait in that case (rushing the topic and its research wouldn't be ideal, after all).

That'd circle back to this point, namely we know that hearts make up everything in a existencially fundamental level even in R>F stuff (reminder for those not into the series that light and darkness make up hearts), and thus this'd fall under the "Metaphysical potential rooted in something from a higher reality" umbrella.

 

[Thanganimator]

That'd circle back to this point, namely we know that hearts make up everything in a existencially fundamental level even in R>F stuff (reminder for those not into the series that light and darkness make up hearts), and thus this'd fall under the "Metaphysical potential rooted in something from a higher reality" umbrella.

"Look, just treat Quadratum and Sora’s world as two different 'versions' of reality.

Sora’s world perceives Quadratum as fiction, but Quadratum likewise views Sora’s world as fiction. Ultimately, this is just a result of the limited perception from both sides. Even the Master of Masters, who has actually been to Quadratum, never claimed it was fiction; he only described it as a place where Light and Darkness do not exist.

You might bring up the Toy Story world evidence regarding Yozora, but Nomura already stated that both worlds view each other as fiction, so that's not a definitive point. He even admitted that KH4 is based on the real Shibuya, so it makes perfect sense for Quadratum to view Sora’s world as fiction—just like how people in real life watch Mickey Mouse movies.

Furthermore, you haven't even proven to me why a lack of Light and Darkness would drop a world to Tier 11. That's like saying Nobodies or any world without Light and Darkness are automatically Tier 11, which is baseless."

 

[Bobsican]

"Look, just treat Quadratum and Sora’s world as two different 'versions' of reality.

Sora’s world perceives Quadratum as fiction, but Quadratum likewise views Sora’s world as fiction. Ultimately, this is just a result of the limited perception from both sides. Even the Master of Masters, who has actually been to Quadratum, never claimed it was fiction; he only described it as a place where Light and Darkness do not exist.

That circles back to this:

This statement is treating what Nomura said as a iron clad, irrefutable fact of the cosmology, but what he really said was:

https://www.khinsider.com/news/Famitsu-interviews-Nomura-on-Kingdom-Hearts-4-and-Missing-Link-19005

-- In the trailer's narration, Quadratum was described as "a world full of life- but for you and I, it's similar to an "afterworld," I suppose." What does this mean?

Nomura: It means that perception changes depending on your viewpoint.

The Master of Masters says something along those lines in UX. From Sora's point of view, Quadratum is a world on the other side of his own world and reality: a fictional world. However, from the point of view of the inhabitants of Quadratum, their world is the real one, and the place Sora and his friends hail from is the other side, the fictional world.

This time, I think the theme will be something akin to the "contrast between people from different positions."

Which isn't actually saying either way that "Yes, this is reality", but rather, "both sides think they themselves are reality". Which yeah, obviously, if you have a situation like this, cases are both the lower on scale, and higher on scale, inhabitants of worlds will consider themselves to be in reality. Just because a world and it's inhabitants considers itself reality doesn't inherently mean it is real; Most every single verse treats itself in this manner, yet we obviously understand that we, ourselves, are real (ignoring certain specific philosophies and belief's and rather going with what the general public understands, naturally)

So this is just multiple in-universe perspectives with a patent unreliability intent to not seriously consider either claim as is, meaning that this can't be used as hard proof to say the least without further information, in contrast of the known nature of the Sleeping Worlds and their showcased relation with the Station of Awakening and the Final World as explained in a previously linked blog post covering those.

You might bring up the Toy Story world evidence regarding Yozora, but Nomura already stated that both worlds view each other as fiction, so that's not a definitive point. He even admitted that KH4 is based on the real Shibuya, so it makes perfect sense for Quadratum to view Sora’s world as fiction—just like how people in real life watch Mickey Mouse movies.

Besides what has been brought up earlier, Quadratum being based on a IRL location doesn't really mean much, case in point let's look more carefully over what you're citing here, namely with a proper translation as you just sourced the raw scan which I'm sure most here won't understand without using a machine translation:

https://www.khinsider.com/news/Famitsu-interviews-Nomura-on-Kingdom-Hearts-4-and-Missing-Link-19005

-- I was surprised by the faithful recreation of the area surrounding Shibuya Hikarie, the venue in which the event took place, in the Kingdom Hearts 4 trailer. Did you purposefully decide to hold the event there?

Nomura: We wanted to do it at Shibuya Hikarie if possible. Shibuya is an easily recognizable landmark, and you can recreate the real world more realistically in a game if you're familiar with the setting.

-- Is Shibuya part of the world of Quadratum?

Nomura: Yes, it is.

-- While we're on that topic, is there any possibility of a reunion with the characters from The World Ends With You, who appeared in Kingdom Hearts 3D?

Nomura: Strictly speaking, it is a different world from the Shibuya of The World Ends With You. Some fans believe there is a connection to TWEWY and Stranger of Paradise: Final Fantasy Origins, but there's really no such thing.

Nothing here seem to be confirming per-say that the implementation of Shibuya is meant to have the intent of being our real world, but rather merely saying the intent of replicating a section of the real world more realistically, which isn't unheard of as something to do without the oddly specific intent of being our real world, as much fiction tends to do stuff like reality unless noted without those oddly specific connotations.

Furthermore, you haven't even proven to me why a lack of Light and Darkness would drop a world to Tier 11. That's like saying Nobodies or any world without Light and Darkness are automatically Tier 11, which is baseless."

What? I'm afraid I never said that, as noted before darkness (and by extension light per their nature) make up dreams within dreams, aka R>Fs, so the argument instead lingers on such metaphysical essence that permeates across all levels of reality resulting on reasonable potential to simply become qualitatively inferior while still respecting proper R>F implications, you keep acting like as if this can't be justified while still being proper qualitative layers when that's not how it works.

"Sora will never wake up. No matter how many of Sora's nightmares you feed on those who have fallen into the abyss of dreams will never wake from their slumber."

Memories become dreams, and dreams are in sleep. And that sleep is darkness. Sora's heart has fallen into darkness. Can you believe that Sora has fallen into darkness? You've felt it, too. This world, this nightmare, this abyss of darkness. Why haven't you... Not been back in the real world? You're not back there. A dream of a dream, a nightmare within a nightmare... You've been traveling in Sora's dream. And now you're going to fall into the darkness within the darkness.

 

[Thanganimator]

That circles back to this:


https://www.khinsider.com/news/Famitsu-interviews-Nomura-on-Kingdom-Hearts-4-and-Missing-Link-19005





So this is just multiple in-universe perspectives with a patent unreliability intent to not seriously consider either claim as is, meaning that this can't be used as hard proof to say the least without further information, in contrast of the known nature of the Sleeping Worlds and their showcased relation with the Station of Awakening and the Final World as explained in a previously linked blog post covering those.


Besides what has been brought up earlier, Quadratum being based on a IRL location doesn't really mean much, case in point let's look more carefully over what you're citing here, namely with a proper translation as you just sourced the raw scan which I'm sure most here won't understand without using a machine translation:

https://www.khinsider.com/news/Famitsu-interviews-Nomura-on-Kingdom-Hearts-4-and-Missing-Link-19005

Nothing here seem to be confirming per-say that the implementation of Shibuya is meant to have the intent of being our real world, but rather merely saying the intent of replicating a section of the real world more realistically, which isn't unheard of as something to do without the oddly specific intent of being our real world, as much fiction tends to do stuff like reality unless noted without those oddly specific connotations.



What? I'm afraid I never said that, as noted before darkness (and by extension light per their nature) make up dreams within dreams, aka R>Fs, so the argument instead lingers on such metaphysical essence that permeates across all levels of reality resulting on reasonable potential to simply become qualitatively inferior while still respecting proper R>F implications, you keep acting like as if this can't be justified while still being proper qualitative layers when that's not how it works.

"Since it's inspired by Shibuya, it functions just like real life.

In the Toy Story world, Yozora is viewed as fiction—like a video game. Similarly, Quadratum can view Sora's world as fiction—like an animated movie. Since Quadratum is based on the real Shibuya and Sora’s world consists of Disney realms, it’s exactly like us watching Disney movies in the real world.

If Quadratum were 'fiction', the idea that it could contain a 'real' entity while simultaneously perceiving Sora's world as fiction would be reaching peak absurdity. Fiction, by definition, is unaware of Reality. Even if it were aware, it would be ridiculous for a lower plane to view a higher plane as 'fiction', as the lower plane cannot even comprehend the true nature of Reality.

Furthermore, the KH4 trailer clearly shows Shadows/Darkness appearing in Quadratum. Whether this Darkness stems from human emotions within Quadratum or is an outside invasion remains unknown. Regardless, it would be a massive contradiction if Quadratum could suddenly house multiple 'real' entities within itself.

Moreover, the statements regarding the characters' status are just personal perspectives; nobody has truly explored Quadratum yet. Therefore, there is insufficient evidence to claim Quadratum is Tier 11.
Currently, only Sora, Riku, and the Master of Masters have reached that place, and since they haven't claimed Quadratum is 'unreal', there is no basis to downgrade it to Tier 11."

 

[Vietthai96]

Those are just different people's perspective, it do not have any impact on cosmology whatsoever

 

[Thanganimator]

Those are just different people's perspective, it do not have any impact on cosmology whatsoever

Excuse me, but may I ask who you were replying to? Me or Bob?

 

[Vietthai96]

Excuse me, but may I ask who you were replying to? Me or Bob?

Both

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

no.

What Agnaa is saying there is blatantly not the same thing as what Ultima was addressing. If a 1-A being just enters a lower reality like that, it would indeed be an anti-feat, but it isn't an anti-feat if they shift states of reality first. Also, Ultima literally made these standards; even if their advice differed, it would just be Agnaa misinterpreting things.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

What Agnaa is saying there is blatantly not the same thing as what Ultima was addressing. If a 1-A being just enters a lower reality like that, it would indeed be an anti-feat, but it isn't an anti-feat if they shift states of reality first. Also, Ultima literally made these standards; even if their advice differed, it would just be Agnaa misinterpreting things.

Agnaa plays an important role in how the 1-A standards are accepted, as do DT and the others
You can't just discredit him just because Ultima was the one who made the thread specially when there were some contentions and resolutions afterwards that may have shifted the standard to the current accepted standard compared to the original OP's view of the standard

And no, if you are saying they are shifting their state of being, that is basically just making an Avatar, or presumably making themselves no longer real and thus becoming fiction, thus they wouldn't be able to just move back and forth without any assistance because everything about them has to become fictional, including the power that was granted to them that ability to do so in the first place. Because the moment they become fictional because they brought all of they are into lower reality
the source of their 1-A ceases to exist and they are no longer just a conduit

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Agnaa plays an important role in how the 1-A standards are accepted, as do DT and the others
You can't just discredit him just because Ultima was the one who made the thread specially when there were some contentions and resolutions afterwards that may have shifted the standard to the current accepted standard compared to the original OP's view of the standard

I followed the threads through from start to finish, and no such shifts occurred.

And no, if you are saying they are shifting their state of being, that is basically just making an Avatar, or presumably making themselves no longer real and thus becoming fiction, thus they wouldn't be able to just move back and forth without any assistance because everything about them has to become fictional, including the power that was granted to them that ability to do so in the first place

No.

Tiers Through State/Size

Now, to extend an olive branch here: I agree that Attack Potency very much is based around external effects, right now, the title alone makes it obvious and the page even calls it an alternate name for Destructive Capacity. My point overall is that nevertheless there's a fairly important sense...

vsbattles.com

If a being in a lower reality has metaphysical potential in them originating from the higher reality, which something that shifted states of existence would, they would be able to return to being more real without any assistance.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I followed the threads through from start to finish, and no such shifts occurred.

No.

Tiers Through State/Size

Now, to extend an olive branch here: I agree that Attack Potency very much is based around external effects, right now, the title alone makes it obvious and the page even calls it an alternate name for Destructive Capacity. My point overall is that nevertheless there's a fairly important sense...

vsbattles.com

If a being in a lower reality has metaphysical potential in them originating from the higher reality, which something that shifted states of existence would, they would be able to return to being more real without any assistance.

That's something the verse has to prove, though not in a general sense.

and the ability to shift ones existence to lower and higher implies that metaphysical potential would exist above both Real and Fictional world. which would potentially make it a high 1-A power and not just 1-A

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

That's something the verse has to prove, though not in a general sense.

and the ability to shift ones existence to lower and higher implies that metaphysical potential would exist above both Real and Fictional world. which would potentially make it a high 1-A power and not just 1-A

The character being able to return to being real after becoming fictional is the proof, as long as the reality-fiction transcendence has evidence substantiating its legitimacy.

 

[Thanganimator]

To be honest, I haven't understood anything at all.