General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[KirbyFan03]

HI, I think Superboy should have plot manipulation ability & higher tier

Superboy Prime changed Imaginary Stories Reject after he hit it, the reason he said it was imaginary stories reject because it was a story from Lucien Library that he never read before, which is an impossible story to happen and made from horror of human heart(1)(2)(Impossible Volume) & Crisis Energy is explained to be born from the bad side of humans (we are the batteries for the crisis energy and its opposite) such as greed, selfishness, predation & human desire to be big, this implies Crisis Energy made the impossible Stories in Lucien Library that's why The Darkest Knight with Crisis Energy can make the Story From Lucien Library come true(The stories that never would have been allowed to be real before) like the description of Lucien story (impossible story to happen). So i mean Superboy prime change the story from Lucien Library that made of crisis energy.

In Superman #36 Superboy Prime turns the panel into a sketch after losing control and killing Ignition. I think plot manipulation for Earth Prime is normal, because it's described as a metafiction world and superboy prime said realities is a comic page (2). And what Superboy Prime did in #36 is similar to what Cary Bates did in the past. Let's get silver age, in Earth Prime there is a DC Comics Tower where there is Julie Schwartz (Script editor), Cary Bates & Elliot (Both this are writer) they are representations of real people btw, you can search their names. Cary Bates was imagining the plot for the next issue and it really happened in reality. "I started dreaming up a plot for my next flash yarn". He chose Trickster as the villain and it actually happened in reality. He did it all just with his mind and happened, all passed and he plotting trickster last job for the ending of the story by imagining that Trickster will rob the bank and it's actually happening like he plotting Trickster comeback. And there's a panel that says everyone from Earth Prime has abilities like Cary Bates. It means superboy prime has it like in Superman #36.

He once tortured mxzptlk and made him scared(even with his magic returned) and shouted to seal off the fifth dimension and said superboy prime is the end, maybe it implies superboy can affect something in fifth dimension

Agree

 

[KirbyFan03]

My problem with this interpretation is that New God's or any God for that matter in the SOG are never portrayed to be close to monads, not only are they still dwarfed by multiple higher layers in the cosmology they're never even consistently portrayed to be r>f over humans, like a true r>f being should not have size or mass relative to the local multiverse or even the bleed. A true r>f being should not be forced to gather his lower emanations of energy from across the multiverse to regain his full power, something that should not have been necessary unless it wasn't an r>f being in the first place. And this is speaking strictly for SOG I haven't even started to talk about the other realms above cus they do have their own anti feats.
Tldr: we shouldn't just take statements at a whim simply because it favours our own higher interpretation especially from a book no one can read/verify and isn't even consistent with the main portrayal of Gods mainline

That r>f debunked is from the 90s where Godheads didn't even exist yet

As for the current stuff, Emanations should have AE2 (I'm gonna post my god physiology thread soon)

So it's more of unifying a concept that exists in every universe into a singular entity which could make it more potent?

 

[Antvasima]

Cary Bates can do it in both world, He plotted trickster comeback while he was in earth prime and he plotted the ending of The Trickster while he was in earth 1.
You can read The Flash Vol 1 #228, you can see he typed a script another issue of flash comics (The Flash Vol 1 #203) in earth prime and he can plot with a thought in earth 1 like sbp did in Superman #36

Well, he is a writer, whereas Prime isn't, so chain-scaling on such loose grounds remains firmly rejected by me until we receive much stronger evidence, no matter how much you will argue about it. My apologies.

 

[Bimgus8010]

Where is it listed?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Message_Wall:Bimgus8010?threadId=4400000000003889510&useskin=fandomdesktop

 

[Frankky123]

Well, he is a writer, whereas Prime isn't, so chain-scaling on such loose grounds remains firmly rejected by me until we receive much stronger evidence, no matter how much you will argue about it. My apologies.

umm, my evidence is the Editor said every people on earth prime has that ability "to some degree" its very reasonable chain scalling, then Superman #36 & Death Metal: Secret Origin just showing that superboy prime can also do it(support evidence). You know the reason Superboy is the only alternate superman that able to affect reality is because statement of Julie Schwartz before. Superboy explain that comic page represent reality, it means he should get Plot Manipulation when he change reality since he knows that DC Comics is fiction(4th wall).

 

[Frankky123]

Agree

So sbp should scale to fifth dimension?

 

[KirbyFan03]

So sbp should scale to fifth dimension?

I'd put him below it

Maybe on par with CAS

 

[Antvasima]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Message_Wall:Bimgus8010?threadId=4400000000003889510&useskin=fandomdesktop

I handled it.

 

[Antvasima]

umm, my evidence is the Editor said every people on earth prime has that ability "to some degree" its very reasonable chain scalling, then Superman #36 & Death Metal: Secret Origin just showing that superboy prime can also do it(support evidence). You know the reason Superboy is the only alternate superman that able to affect reality is because statement of Julie Schwartz before. Superboy explain that comic page represent reality, it means he should get Plot Manipulation when he change reality since he knows that DC Comics is fiction(4th wall).

We need explicit evidence about Prime himself, not other characters who appeared around 50 years ago.

 

[GG55HH]

That r>f debunked is from the 90s where Godheads didn't even exist yet

No necessarily, it just means it hadn't been fleshed out more

So it's more of unifying a concept that exists in every universe into a singular entity which could make it more potent?

What do you mean?

 

[Bimgus8010]

If this helps, here are the post-crisis profiles that need to be updated to 2A according to the already accepted scale:

Cheetah
Giganta
Constantine
King Shark
Zatanna

Should These guys be at least 2C tier?

Certain staff doesn't like them getting 2A but that doesn't mean they should be specifically 5A either

2c change for the 5As?

 

[Bimgus8010]

@Firestorm808 , the thread got closed

Just do this for last key for zatanna

3A, possibly low 2C

Universal level, possibly Universe level+

 

[Antvasima]

Please let our staff members make a decision regarding this issue.

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

Should These guys be at least 2C tier?

Certain staff doesn't like them getting 2A but that doesn't mean they should be specifically 5A either

2c change for the 5As?

The profiles of all these characters state that they scale to 2A characters (I also find it funny that people question whether Cheetah and Giganta scale to Wonder Woman when they fight her in all their appearances).

 

[Bimgus8010]

I was gonna post another thread after a couple of hours passed, I already wrote the stuff and the links

But @Hecky2222 wanted to do my thread and said I don't have to

So in 2 or 3 weeks he would be making my thread with the sources I linked and I would simp for him

 

[KirbyFan03]

No necessarily, it just means it hadn't been fleshed out more

What do you mean?

"From the true location of his Physical Form" considering the time period of this being in the 90s I think he was trapped in The Source Wall?

Basically each gods emanations embody a certain concept such as being-itself, while the argument for a type 1 concept can be made the god emanations are clearly Physical so I'm gonna say it's AE2 Concept 1

Now with Darkseid his emanations while embodying evil are also fundamental seeing as weird shit happens whenever he dies and the universe attempts to correct itself

So having his power and being fused could mean that his concept isn't being magnified across the material world and is condensed

At least, that's what I think

I'll provide the scans jn

 

[Hecky2222]

So in 2 or 3 weeks he would be making my thread with the sources I linked and I would simp for him

? Stop being cringe af here too

 

[Wirtzwest]

My problem with this interpretation is that New God's or any God for that matter in the SOG are never portrayed to be close to monads, not only are they still dwarfed by multiple higher layers in the cosmology they're never even consistently portrayed to be r>f over humans, like a true r>f being should not have size or mass relative to the local multiverse or even the bleed. A true r>f being should not be forced to gather his lower emanations of energy from across the multiverse to regain his full power, something that should not have been necessary unless it wasn't an r>f being in the first place. And this is speaking strictly for SOG I haven't even started to talk about the other realms above cus they do have their own anti feats.
Tldr: we shouldn't just take statements at a whim simply because it favours our own higher interpretation especially from a book no one can read/verify and isn't even consistent with the main portrayal of Gods mainline

1. I believe it is consistent even in mythos that gods do and can gain power from lower realms.
2. Aside from the new gods l would like to here other antifeats.
3. The interpretation is real although that's how Morrison views it so it won't be inline with other writers of the new gods.

 

[Frankky123]

We need explicit evidence about Prime himself, not other characters who appeared around 50 years ago.

Hi ant, why sbp didnt get plot manipulation after changing stories from lucien library. TDK should have plot manipulation via crisis energy?

 

[Elizio33]

Hi ant, why sbp didnt get plot manipulation after changing stories from lucien library. TDK should have plot manipulation via crisis energy?

TDK and Perpetua should have "Possibly Plot Manipulation" via Crisis Energy and also by tearing apart all stories of the DCU through their confrontation. Even Barbatos should have "Possibly Plot Manipulation" via bringing nightmares of the Dark Multiverse into the main reality, forbidden stories from Lucien's Library, which would have led to the destruction of the Dream World. Barbatos also rules over the worlds of the Dark Multiverse which are stories in Lucien's Library made from the horrors of humanity and was called a god of cursed stories.

 

[Hecky2222]

TDK and Perpetua should have "Possibly Plot Manipulation" via Crisis Energy and also by tearing apart all stories of the DCU through their confrontation. Even Barbatos should have "Possibly Plot Manipulation" via bringing nightmares of the Dark Multiverse into the main reality, forbidden stories from Lucien's Library, which would have led to the destruction of the Dream World. Barbatos also rules over the worlds of the Dark Multiverse which are stories in Lucien's Library made from the horrors of humanity and was called a god of cursed stories.

I can see Barbatos Plot Manipulation justification but in case of TDK and Perpetua it would be

Plot Erasure or rather Existence Erasure(Plot) kinda Plot Manipulation but different use

 

[Elizio33]

I can see Barbatos Plot Manipulation justification but in case of TDK and Perpetua it would be

Plot Erasure or rather Existence Erasure(Plot) kinda Plot Manipulation but different use

I agree with that, but there is also Crisis Energy which might support a Possibly Plot Manipulation.

 

[Frankky123]

I can see Barbatos Plot Manipulation justification but in case of TDK and Perpetua it would be

Plot Erasure or rather Existence Erasure(Plot) kinda Plot Manipulation but different use

Crisis enegy create the impossible stories from lucien, TDK should have plot manipulation since he has crisis enegy, thats why in some oneshot comic there's an extra side story for the reader, like Robin king told to reader "are you ready to turn the page reader, because the horror story is out there ready for you".

 

[Frankky123]

TDK and Perpetua should have "Possibly Plot Manipulation" via Crisis Energy and also by tearing apart all stories of the DCU through their confrontation. Even Barbatos should have "Possibly Plot Manipulation" via bringing nightmares of the Dark Multiverse into the main reality, forbidden stories from Lucien's Library, which would have led to the destruction of the Dream World. Barbatos also rules over the worlds of the Dark Multiverse which are stories in Lucien's Library made from the horrors of humanity and was called a god of cursed stories.

Limited plot manipulation for retcon punch for superboy Prime would be fine since he can changed it

 

[Da3ggman]

Only on VS Battle Wiki will a character literally rip up stories and plots and not have full on plot manipulation

 

[AthelChan]

hmm, seems like everyone who participated on dc ko had been amped by alpha energy

 

[Antvasima]

Only on VS Battle Wiki will a character literally rip up stories and plots and not have full on plot manipulation

Please elaborate. Are there scans for this?

 

[Da3ggman]

Please elaborate. Are there scans for this?

TDK and Perpetual are literally ripping apart the stories of the multiverse as a side effect of their battle. He's also able to re-create these same stories from scratch after he wipes the slate clean, same as The Hands. These are all scans from our profiles btw, so it's not like it's some new thing being discovered now, I think we've just gotten too stingy with who we give Plot Manip to, even when its obviously what the author is intending.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't see any story-ripping visuals within those scans. Also, I thought that we were talking about Superboy Prime.

 

[Da3ggman]

I don't see any story-ripping visuals within those scans.

"But this multiverse is different. These stories are being ripped apart by nightmares, rather than reaching a natural conclusion."

In context he's talking about their fight, this is something accepted on their profiles.

Also, I thought that we were talking about Superboy Prime.

He's a similar case, but I was more so talking about TDK.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted.

 

[Frankky123]

I don't see any story-ripping visuals within those scans. Also, I thought that we were talking about Superboy Prime.

Superboy changed lucien library's stories in secret origin

 

[Antvasima]

Superboy changed lucien library's stories in secret origin

Can somebody show scans please?

 

[Elizio33]

I know this topic has already been addressed in my previous thread, but it's worth revisiting: Pralaya and Mother Night can be seen as interpretations of the Great Darkness, without being strictly identical to it.

One objection is that the Great Darkness transcends belief and, by extension, the Collective Unconscious. While this is true, transcendence doesn't preclude manifestation or interpretation. Even God is perceived in multiple forms and names across different belief systems, while remaining a single underlying principle transcending all. Similarly, a pre-creational Darkness can express itself through distinct entities.

Another objection concerns its duality with the Light of Creation, with Pralaya being portrayed as capable of extinguishing this Light. However, this is not a contradiction. The duality between Darkness and Light is relational, not limiting: Darkness does not depend on Light for its existence, but is defined by it. Thus, the ability to "extinguish" the Light is not unique to Pralaya since the Great Darkness almost did the same.

Therefore, Pralaya and Mother Night should be considered distinct expressions of the Great Darkness, sharing a common underlying essence while retaining their own identities and characteristics. I am not proposing a merger because these entities remain distinct enough, just to say that Pralaya and Mother Night are different interpretations of the same pre-creational darkness. This would not affect scaling, but a new key would need to be added in the profiles of the Great Darkness if this proposal is accepted.

What do you think ?

 

[Hecky2222]

I know this topic has already been addressed in my previous thread, but it's worth revisiting: Pralaya and Mother Night can be seen as interpretations of the Great Darkness, without being strictly identical to it.

One objection is that the Great Darkness transcends belief and, by extension, the Collective Unconscious. While this is true, transcendence doesn't preclude manifestation or interpretation. Even God is perceived in multiple forms and names across different belief systems, while remaining a single underlying principle transcending all. Similarly, a pre-creational Darkness can express itself through distinct entities.

Another objection concerns its duality with the Light of Creation, with Pralaya being portrayed as capable of extinguishing this Light. However, this is not a contradiction. The duality between Darkness and Light is relational, not limiting: Darkness does not depend on Light for its existence, but is defined by it. Thus, the ability to "extinguish" the Light is not unique to Pralaya since the Great Darkness almost did the same.

Therefore, Pralaya and Mother Night should be considered distinct expressions of the Great Darkness, sharing a common underlying essence while retaining their own identities and characteristics. I am not proposing a merger because these entities remain distinct enough, just to say that Pralaya and Mother Night are different interpretations of the same pre-creational darkness. This would not affect scaling, but a new key would need to be added in the profiles of the Great Darkness if this proposal is accepted.

What do you think ?

So like if I understood correctly we are telling Pralaya and Mother Night avatars of GD or same entity different characters?

 

[Asterotheology]

I know this topic has already been addressed in my previous thread, but it's worth revisiting: Pralaya and Mother Night can be seen as interpretations of the Great Darkness, without being strictly identical to it.

I disagree, as usual. Why does Pralaya and Mother Night need to be different interpretations of the Great Darkness? Why can't the Great Darkness instead simply be below them? Since that seems to currently be the case on the wiki at the moment. At least with Pralaya. Not sure what's the current progress around the Mother Night upgrade thread.

One objection is that the Great Darkness transcends belief and, by extension, the Collective Unconscious. While this is true, transcendence doesn't preclude manifestation or interpretation. Even God is perceived in multiple forms and names across different belief systems, while remaining a single underlying principle transcending all. Similarly, a pre-creational Darkness can express itself through distinct entities.

In God's case, as far as I'm aware, it's only when it's interacting with creation does the different interpretations come into play. Creation itself is below the Collective unconsciousness. I'm genuinely curious how you see the belief system in DC and how high you think it goes. I assume you're going off of the Death Metal scene with the Chronicler.

Another objection concerns its duality with the Light of Creation, with Pralaya being portrayed as capable of extinguishing this Light. However, this is not a contradiction. The duality between Darkness and Light is relational, not limiting: Darkness does not depend on Light for its existence, but is defined by it. Thus, the ability to "extinguish" the Light is not unique to Pralaya since the Great Darkness almost did the same.

Pralaya wasn't portrayed as just erasing the Light. It's stated to erased all of the dream and the Creator itself. The Great Darkness has never done anything close to that as far as I'm aware. It neither erased duality, creation or even the Creator itself. Which is an aspect of God that pushes forward Creation inside the dream. So yes, in that sense. It is unique to Pralaya. Great Darkness feats aren't exactly that stellar. Especially when looking back on Swamp Thing where it was sealed below Hell. And even when looking at the recent New Gods run, I recall people bringing up some issues with what was going on in that run.

Therefore, Pralaya and Mother Night should be considered distinct expressions of the Great Darkness, sharing a common underlying essence while retaining their own identities and characteristics. I am not proposing a merger because these entities remain distinct enough, just to say that Pralaya and Mother Night are different interpretations of the same pre-creational darkness. This would not affect scaling, but a new key would need to be added in the profiles of the Great Darkness if this proposal is accepted.

What do you think ?

Personally? I don't think nothing should be changed at all. Currently, Pralaya (True Form) is above the Great Darkness and I don't see a single issue with it. To say they're the same so Great Darkness can get a tier increase feels a bit Bizarre.

 

[AcidSilver]

It’s so peak

 

[Elizio33]

I disagree, as usual. Why does Pralaya and Mother Night need to be different interpretations of the Great Darkness? Why can't the Great Darkness instead simply be below them? Since that seems to currently be the case on the wiki at the moment. At least with Pralaya. Not sure what's the current progress around the Mother Night upgrade thread.


In God's case, as far as I'm aware, it's only when it's interacting with creation does the different interpretations come into play. Creation itself is below the Collective unconsciousness. I'm genuinely curious how you see the belief system in DC and how high you think it goes. I assume you're going off of the Death Metal scene with the Chronicler.



Pralaya wasn't portrayed as just erasing the Light. It's stated to erased all of the dream and the Creator itself. The Great Darkness has never done anything close to that as far as I'm aware. It neither erased duality, creation or even the Creator itself. Which is an aspect of God that pushes forward Creation inside the dream. So yes, in that sense. It is unique to Pralaya. Great Darkness feats aren't exactly that stellar. Especially when looking back on Swamp Thing where it was sealed below Hell. And even when looking at the recent New Gods run, I recall people bringing up some issues with what was going on in that run.


Personally? I don't think nothing should be changed at all. Currently, Pralaya (True Form) is above the Great Darkness and I don't see a single issue with it. To say they're the same so Great Darkness can get a tier increase feels a bit Bizarre.

Makes sense, really.

 

[Asterotheology]

Makes sense, really.

To expand on it, because I don't feel I put enough reasoning. Mainly because I wanted to avoid being wordy. The predefined state of the Great Darkness is completely reliant on the light not existing. It's not higher than the Light or beyond it. Seeing as the Light grew within it and then started to rival it. Even though it was a Black Infinitude by comparison. Whereas, Pralaya's true form always exist as the container to God's dream. Duality, Creator and Creation existing doesn't affect Pralaya's true form. They all amount to a drop in the ocean and when it's time for the sleep of brahma, it all gets erased. If they were the same, the Great Darkness predefined state would always exist and can't be reduced and defined by the Light.

Now, with all of that said. I'm not some expert on all things related to the Great Darkness. I could've missed some recent stuff that was said or even older things. So if there's something that gives more creditability to the Great Darkness predefined state having equal position to Pralaya's true form, feel free to add it. But by all accounts that I'm aware of. The Great Darkness isn't beyond the Light in a meaningful way. They tilt back and forth. With the Light being what mainly prevents it from returning to its original state.

 

[GoldenVortex94]

I disagree, as usual. Why does Pralaya and Mother Night need to be different interpretations of the Great Darkness? Why can't the Great Darkness instead simply be below them? Since that seems to currently be the case on the wiki at the moment. At least with Pralaya. Not sure what's the current progress around the Mother Night upgrade thread.


In God's case, as far as I'm aware, it's only when it's interacting with creation does the different interpretations come into play. Creation itself is below the Collective unconsciousness. I'm genuinely curious how you see the belief system in DC and how high you think it goes. I assume you're going off of the Death Metal scene with the Chronicler.



Pralaya wasn't portrayed as just erasing the Light. It's stated to erased all of the dream and the Creator itself. The Great Darkness has never done anything close to that as far as I'm aware. It neither erased duality, creation or even the Creator itself. Which is an aspect of God that pushes forward Creation inside the dream. So yes, in that sense. It is unique to Pralaya. Great Darkness feats aren't exactly that stellar. Especially when looking back on Swamp Thing where it was sealed below Hell. And even when looking at the recent New Gods run, I recall people bringing up some issues with what was going on in that run.


Personally? I don't think nothing should be changed at all. Currently, Pralaya (True Form) is above the Great Darkness and I don't see a single issue with it. To say they're the same so Great Darkness can get a tier increase feels a bit Bizarre.

It is said in the comic, that she is the great darkness. Also said the same thing in JL incarnate. It's the same. Nothing besides God can be above great darkness.