Strongest 5-D Characters on the Wiki

[Vietthai96]

Mundus is getting 1 layer of NEP so will the info EE work?

Mundus didn't have NEP Info 2 Aspect so Chaos can still Info 2 hax Mundus

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

No, simply predate reality doesn't mean you can includes things that not show in it, like info 2, this is NLF

you know what i wont argue against this shit anymore

so does argosax/mundus get info 2 ee'd

maybe they have some weird passive ability that can make it incon

regular mundus and literally everyone else will be just fine, chaos can't nuke their souls

Though Argosax definitely will get Info 2 haxed

And then what? I literally made questions above on how do we treat this

 

[Vietthai96]

And then what? I literally made questions above on how do we treat this

1. We literally had a thread about this and it was widely accepted that you are not going to regen from that kind of thing without feat, if DontTalk want to overturn it, he need to make a thread

2. Even if i was going with his logic, Mundus still get incapped from constant passive EE coming from Chaos, Mundus will getting destroyed over and over, and incap = win, unless Chaos passive is a one or two times thing only

 

[Lilixa]

I am interested if Chaos hax powerful enough to erase or destroying Yggdrasil. But i think its possible, Considering kratos empowering surtr with chaos primordial flame and surtr able to cut the branch of Yggdrasil itself.

 

[Tanin_iver]

it sounded like you said only runic magic is im2 but magic as a whole is im2, not just runic magic

I haven't said anywhere that IM2 is limited to runic magic. I have only explained that it changes nothing, in GoW IM2/Runes emulate the effects of CM1 aspect of the Magic.
Basically the target and the output is the exact same for CM1 and IM2(for GoW Magic) only the means of achieving it is different.
Instead of affecting the Concept itself take the extra step of manipulating the info/runes to achieve change in concept.
Hence, why it changes nothing. Both CM1 and IM2 are in the same level Metaphysically. So resisting CM1 helps you to resist an indirect CM1 through IM2.

Read the Metaphysical Aspects page for more.

Metaphysical Equalization​

As we can not list every possible kind of metaphysical aspect that may appear in fiction, not listed things like names, Dao, essence or ether are usually sorted into the existing abilities by judging what seems most similar to the ability even if it is not an exact equivalence. At the same time different fictions at times call very similar ideas by different names, such that what is called concept in one fiction might end up being almost the same as what is called information in another.

As such it is at times reasonable to not hang on to the rigid classifications of our power and ability pages in vs-debates and allow for a more case-by-case comparison.

EDIT: This isn't limited to CM and IM, it can even be for other cases such as Logic Manip and Causality Manip or Causality Manip and Fate Manip or History, Plot or IM etc. Anything is possible and we should generally look cases by case instead of just going by labels or what it is indexed as.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

1. We literally had a thread about this and it was widely accepted that you are not going to regen from that kind of thing without feat, if DontTalk want to overturn it, he need to make a thread

2. Even if i was going with his logic, Mundus still get incapped from constant passive EE coming from Chaos, Mundus will getting destroyed over and over, and incap = win, unless Chaos passive is a one or two times thing only

I was talking about the NEP stuff but... this, we already had this same argument with honkai

1. Where is the thread that says Info 2 neggs concept based regen? In what page does it say one negates the other? There is none and as DT said, erasing the information doesn't prevent the concept or others from recreating whatever was erased

2. Demons can exist and act as souls, minds, disembodied whatever shit they are, none of which Chaos can destroy. Destroying their physical bodies does absolutely nothing, the soul will still be there and **** shit up.

 

[Vietthai96]

I haven't said anywhere that IM2 is limited to runic magic. I have only explained that it changes nothing, in GoW IM2/Runes emulate the effects of CM1 aspect of the Magic.
Basically the target and the output is the exact same for CM1 and IM2(for GoW Magic) only the means of achieving it is different.
Instead of affecting the Concept itself take the extra step of manipulating the info/runes to achieve change in concept.
Hence, why it changes nothing. Both CM1 and IM2 are in the same level Metaphysically. So resisting CM1 helps you to resist an indirect CM1 through IM2.

Read the Metaphysical Aspects page for more.

EDIT: This isn't limited to CM and IM, it can even be for other cases sucha as Logic Manip and Causality Manip or Causality Manip a d Fate Manip or History, Plot or IM etc. Anything is possible and we should generally look cases by case instead of just going by labels or what it is indexed as.

This isn't what the page mean, different verses can estalishes different system of metaphysics, the equalization is mean that we assume in vs match those systems which normally are different compare to each other can be interacted and is similar in their working, for the match to work. It isn't gonna allows you to magically resists thing that your verse didn't even show

Your logic is ridiculous as well, someone resists CM can also resist every other metaphysical abilities. So it doesn't matter that Info 2 in GoW is part of CM1 working, if you don't resist Info 2, and you will be haxed by it

 

[Vietthai96]

1. Where is the thread that says Info 2 neggs concept based regen? In what page does it say one negates the other? There is none and as DT said, erasing the information doesn't prevent the concept or others from recreating whatever was erased

It isn't about info 2 neg concept,based regen, it is about that you can only regen from what you show, for example if you only show to be able to regen from concept erasure only, then you will not be able to regen from info 2 erasure, history erasure or plot erasure, this applies to other aspects as well. In short, you need feat

The thread was made by Glassman or Micah, i dom't exactly remember because it was long ago. Idrc what DontTalk said in private with you cause this was established in a thread, which he need to change the outcome of that thread

2. Demons can exist and act as souls, minds, disembodied whatever shit they are, none of which Chaos can destroy. Destroying their physical bodies does absolutely nothing, the soul will still be there and **** shit up.

?. From what i saw, GoW magic is CM which includes soul, mind and other stuff as well. And it not like info 2 erasure is somehow only erase the body

 

[Tanin_iver]

This isn't what the page meN, different verses can estalishes different system of metaphysics, the equalization is mean that we assume in vs match those systems which normally are different compare to each other can be interacted and is similar in their working, for the match to work. It isn't gonna allows you to magically resists thing that your verse didn't even show

Your logic is ridiculous as well, someone resists CM can also resist every other metaphysical abilities. So it doesn't matter that Info 2 in GoW is part of CM1 working, if you don't resist Info 2, and you will be haxed by it

No, what you are talking about is basically explained under Order of Aspects. We don't assume any order when the abilities are unidentical, and say neither can interact with the other.

In fiction, some metaphysical aspects are often more fundamental than others or able to govern other aspects. E.g. Concepts frequently govern the laws of the universe and are more fundamental than them, such that manipulation of the laws can't influence concepts, but manipulating concepts also changes the laws to reflect the changes to reality performed when concepts were manipulated.

There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involved clarifies how the interaction between the metaphysical aspects works.

While on the other hand we equalize abilities that are similar by looking at it case by case. In case of GoW vs DMC, we look at what Magic inherently is.
For GoW, manipulating the Runes to achieve the desired Magical result is indexed as IM2. So just a different application and steps to achieve the same results that Magic already do.

If say DMC elaborated that Names come in special Demonic runes and speaking specific words as spells or curses in Demonic language can be used to warp reality then it's the same thing as GoW and will be indexed as IM2 even tho inherently both Magics are the same and emulating the same effects using extra steps.

So yeah, you are kinda incorrect and misunderstanding the Metaphysical aspects page or rather I'd say ignoring it.

At the same time different fictions at times call very similar ideas by different names, such that what is called concept in one fiction might end up being almost the same as what is called information in another.

As such it is at times reasonable to not hang on to the rigid classifications of our power and ability pages in vs-debates and allow for a more case-by-case comparison.

 

[Deonment]

?. From what i saw, GoW magic is CM which includes soul, mind and other stuff as well. And it not like info 2 erasure is somehow only erase the body

the soul > type 1 concept
If they can exist and act purely as their (nonexistent) soul with no regard for any other aspect then the informational erasure doesn't matter as they exist as an aspect that the info erasure doesn't impact
It is, for all intents and purposes, the same as trying info haxing a type 1 concept, it doesn't do anything unless the verse decides it does, which is not the case in GoW to my knowledge

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

It isn't about info 2 neg concept,based regen, it is about that you can only regen from what you show, for example if you only show to be able to regen from concept erasure only, then you will not be able to regen from info 2 erasure, history erasure or plot erasure, this applies to other aspects as well. In short, you need feat

The thread was made by Glassman or Micah, i dom't exactly remember because it was long ago. Idrc what DontTalk said in private with you cause this was established in a thread, which he need to change the outcome of that thread

hmmmm yes, I see

I have to concede. Micah suggestion wasn't entirely taken into account but it was acknowledged leading to the change. Granted the page should be actually clear on this matter rather than dancing around it (I wish Glass pages got accepted) but nothing I can do about it.

DT didn't talk to me, someone else asked him for it cuz of pokemon vs undertale

?. From what i saw, GoW magic is CM which includes soul, mind and other stuff as well. And it not like info 2 erasure is somehow only erase the body

layers and shit

DMC would effectively be immune to everything bar the info2 stuff and since souls/minds are conceptual then by default are beyond what GoW can dish in that regard.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

but souls in gow are also type 1 concepts

layers and shit

hmmm

 

[Mbpoops]

Cm1 souls

 

[Deonment]

but souls in gow are also type 1 concepts

That isn't the point, and both of the characters in question are nonexistent already
The point is that the info erasure won't actually impact their ability to act because they can fully act as their (nonexistent) soul, which is superior to a type 1 concept, so it stays incon because chaos can't actually erase the aspect that matters, because we don't assume info being capable of interacting with or being superior to concepts without proof of such

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

how many?

depends on the character? the peak is the 45+ stuff

argosax is like 40 ig I haven't seen the blog in ages

That isn't the point, and both of the characters in question are nonexistent already
The point is that the info erasure won't actually impact their ability to act because they can fully act as their (nonexistent) soul, which is superior to a type 1 concept, so it stays incon because chaos can't actually erase the aspect that matters, because we don't assume info being capable of interacting with or being superior to concepts without proof of such

oh shit, finally someone who understand what I was trying to say

can you answer the other questions I made?

 

[Deonment]

can you answer the other questions I made?

Quote it for me please

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

edit: I did some more research and from what I could the whole idea of "erasing existing aspects that the NEP character has" comes from the premise of "when are they actually dead?" and thus this was created as some stupid kind of weakness for NEP in general in order to "kill them", this being a wiki made weakness instead of a verse-to-verse thing. Honestly just adding nonexistent erasure to EE would have been the better option, dozens of profiles already have that as they kill, erase or destroy nonexistent characters.

My questions don't change much, why erasing something that wasn't relevant for X existence/nonexistence would render them unable to act? How does that prevent them from doing what they were doing if they are already not existent? And what happens with characters that have all aspects? Are they dead in any and all matches? According to DT not even NEP 2 is safe from this.

 

[Deonment]

edit: I did some more research and from what I could the whole idea of "erasing existing aspects that the NEP character has" comes from the premise of "when are they actually dead?" and thus this was created as some stupid kind of weakness for NEP in general in order to "kill them", this being a wiki made weakness instead of a verse-to-verse thing. Honestly just adding nonexistent erasure to EE would have been the better option, dozens of profiles already have that as they kill, erase or destroy nonexistent characters.

My questions don't change much, why erasing something that wasn't relevant for X existence/nonexistence would render them unable to act? How does that prevent them from doing what they were doing if they are already not existent? And what happens with characters that have all aspects? Are they dead in any and all matches? According to DT not even NEP 2 is safe from this.

Depends on the context to be quite honest

Looking at said context, though, the runes define a given thing, how it functions and whatnot (why it isn't just concept manip is beyond me, because that's quite literally what it is), if a nonexistent character without a form of info manip resist lost it, then they'd quite simply just lose the ability to interface with reality, given that the area which defined them and their ability to interact with the world is now gone, it'd be like plugging out a controller, sure you still exist and stuff but you can't actually do anything in the game.

Beyond that, I'm more surprised the cosmology nuke angle didn't come up, considering Chaos nukes reality, including all the concepts and information that defines it, at the very least argosax wouldn't be able to do anything considering I don't think I see/know any feats of him being able to act in a void lacking literally everything, Void Mundus would be more fine (once the thread goes through), considering he exhibits a similar state, but I don't think he'd be able to affect Chaos/"reality" afterwards seeing as the rune that (theoretically mind you) defines Mundus wouldn't exist anymore, and thus any theoretical effects he could have on a non-conceptual plane would simply not work, as they are tied into that rune of "Mundus", sure some (nonexistent) conceptual effects may be applicable here (depending on where runes stand in the metaphysical hiearchy), but that is a technically seperate matter, and honestly may work considering soul > concept whereas GoW has soul = concept, but I'm not certain about how that'd work, and I don't exactly care for that argument and let you choose if you want to take that route.

(I've extrapolated a decent deal here, and this sounds so psuedrotted even to me, so take this with salt)

Beyond that, I will reiterate the fact that I disagree with the runes not being some form of concept manip, but that remains me and the chance of me actually doing something about that is at the moment, slim.

 

[Pepsimanslover]

because we don't assume info being capable of interacting with or being superior to concepts without proof of such

In GoW, it is magic = soul = concept = info = chaos (not the character, the ability) = etc (mind, luck blah), thus her info can interact with concepts either way (magic can harm magic) and she in generally erases all of magic and souls as her true form.

The soul in DMC being superior to CM1 doesn't make it superior to info 2, and the soul in DMC doesn't lack info or has evidence of surviving without it, hence there's no reason to assume Chaos erasing it wouldn't do them in.

Admittedly this situation is fairly weird, as in DMC:
Soul > CM1 but not info 2 as the latter doesn't exist in the verse and hence can do them in.
In GoW:
Soul = info = CM
Hence while DMC is superior to the GoW CM aspect, the same thing that qualifies as the CM aspect is info as well, which DMC can't prove superiority to or interact with really.

 

[Tanin_iver]

The soul in DMC being superior to CM1 doesn't make it superior to info 2, and the soul in DMC doesn't lack info or has evidence of surviving without it, hence there's no reason to assume Chaos erasing it wouldn't do them in.

Admittedly this situation is fairly weird, as in DMC:
Soul > CM1 but not info 2 as the latter doesn't exist in the verse and hence can do them in.
In GoW:
Soul = info = CM
Hence while DMC is superior to the GoW CM aspect, the same thing that qualifies as the CM aspect is info as well, which DMC can't prove superiority to or interact with really.

Except GoW already elaborated that Info 2 = CM1 and behaves almost the same as Deonment elaborated, then verse equalization basically makes it DMC Souls > GoW CM1=IM2.

Anyways, the result would be incon as either can't truly affect the other.

 

[Tanin_iver]

i thought the dante vs kratos thread was closed because kratos info stomped dante but if that doesn't work then would it still be incon

What, both have separate wincons iirc? It can go either way, basically whichever gets the first strike.
I suppose we can conclude that as inconclusive too.

 

[Planck69]

I'm fine with incon for DMC/GoW. Either that or we debate this for the next 10 pages and I can't be arsed.

 

[Robo432343]

incon is fine but uh one problem
speed unequal gives them the win for now

 

[Planck69]

incon is fine but uh one problem
speed unequal gives them the win for now

Oh yeah, DMC is still MFTL+

 

[Deonment]

incon is fine but uh one problem
speed unequal gives them the win for now

That doesn't really change what makes this incon though?
The incon is due to the fact that they can't affect each other in a relevant way, ergo, inconclusive
GoW being infinite doesn't really change that calculus

 

[Robo432343]

That doesn't really change what makes this incon though?
The incon is due to the fact that they can't affect each other in a relevant way, ergo, inconclusive
GoW being infinite doesn't really change that calculus

Everyone incons each other if speed is = so it all comes down to Dante vs Kratos. Kratos beats dante in a speed unequalized match

 

[Deonment]

Everyone incons each other if speed is = so it all comes down to Dante vs Kratos. Kratos beats dante in a speed unequalized match

No???
That isn't how the list works, what? Simply because one of the chosen characters is beaten doesn't make the rest suddenly not exist, Kratos isn't beating Void Mundus or Argosax, which both still are relevant characters who hold spots in this scenario, who in this context are "stronger" than Dante. The only way that works is if you want to put Kratos above the GoW and DMC shared spot because he "beats" the characters who are sharing the spot, which isn't the case in this context

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

snip

you still kinda didn't answer my questions, not verse or match related but in general

why erasing something that wasn't relevant for "X" existence/nonexistence would render them unable to act? For example, if someone erases my hair it doesn't mean the rest of me would be affected, nor is a potential nonexistent me dependent on existing hair (im dumbing it down a ton but you get the idea)

what happens with characters that have all aspects? Are they dead in any and all matches? Chaos for example has all aspects, does that mean it is dead and unable to do anything?

 

[Deonment]

why erasing something that wasn't relevant for "X" existence/nonexistence would render them unable to act? For example, if someone erases my hair it doesn't mean the rest of me would be affected, nor is a potential nonexistent me dependent on existing hair (im dumbing it down a ton but you get the idea)

Because erasing these things removes your ability to interact with reality when it comes to fundamental aspects
For example, if you get erased from the story/plot it's pretty obvious you can't do anything within it, even if you do not depend on it to sustain your existence

what happens with characters that have all aspects? Are they dead in any and all matches? Chaos for example has all aspects, does that mean it is dead and unable to do anything?

No, because they have shown the ability to act in spite of such a state, the same applies to characters NEP that encompasses less aspects or is more screwy, if someone has a nonexistent concept/info/plot, but their body/mind still "exists", and can act in spite of such, then erasing their body or mind would stop them from interfacing with reality, even if they (don't) exist beyond the fact that these aspects are erased

 

[Robo432343]

No???
That isn't how the list works, what? Simply because one of the chosen characters is beaten doesn't make the rest suddenly not exist, Kratos isn't beating Void Mundus or Argosax, which both still are relevant characters who hold spots in this scenario, who in this context are "stronger" than Dante. The only way that works is if you want to put Kratos above the GoW and DMC shared spot because he "beats" the characters who are sharing the spot, which isn't the case in this context

Maybe I worded that horribly but chaos would stomp everyone anyway via cosmology nuke no?

 

[Deonment]

Maybe I worded that horribly but chaos
would stomp everyone anyway via cosmology nuke no?

The entire point of the above debate is the fact that it isn't the case, and that because of that they incon

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Maybe I worded that horribly but chaos would stomp everyone anyway via cosmology nuke no?

that works both ways, no? Granted the only one who has passive EE is void mundus

Also Dante already survived once to the cosmology getting nuked with several shenanigans happening in the background but he survived

 

[Robo432343]

that works both ways, no? Granted the only one who has passive EE is void mundus

Also Dante already survived once to the cosmology getting nuked with several shenanigans happening in the background but he survived

but if speed is unequalised then Chaos nuke will happen before mundus EE and people comparable can stay in the void

Just the demon king himself, and those comparable to him, can just barely stay.

 

[Deonment]

but if speed is unequalised then Chaos nuke will happen before mundus EE and people comparable can stay in the void

And? That wasn't the argument, what

 

[Tanin_iver]

but if speed is unequalised then Chaos nuke will happen before mundus EE and people comparable can stay in the void

Wouldn't passive mean they are already activated from the start so speed is irrelevant for passive abilities?

 

[Robo432343]

And? That wasn't the argument, what

weren't you implying that cosmology nuke is a wincon for chaos?

Beyond that, I'm more surprised the cosmology nuke angle didn't come up, considering Chaos nukes reality, including all the concepts and information that defines it, at the very least argosax wouldn't be able to do anything considering I don't think I see/know any feats of him being able to act in a void lacking literally everything, Void Mundus would be more fine (once the thread goes through), considering he exhibits a similar state, but I don't think he'd be able to affect Chaos/"reality" afterwards seeing as the rune that (theoretically mind you) defines Mundus wouldn't exist anymore, and thus any theoretical effects he could have on a non-conceptual plane would simply not work, as they are tied into that rune of "Mundus", sure some (nonexistent) conceptual effects may be applicable here (depending on where runes stand in the metaphysical hiearchy), but that is a technically seperate matter, and honestly may work considering soul > concept whereas GoW has soul = concept, but I'm not certain about how that'd work, and I don't exactly care for that argument and let you choose if you want to take that route.

I thought Chaos simply erases the void because of its range unless Void Mundus is also Low 1-C in size?

i dont even know how the fight is going to continue when the cosmology gets nuked

 

[Deonment]

weren't you implying that cosmology nuke is a wincon for chaos?
I thought Chaos simply erases the void because of its range unless Void Mundus is also Low 1-C in size?

i dont even know how the fight is going to continue when the cosmology gets nuked

In theory as most characters don't exactly showcase the ability to act in such a scenario even if they can regenerate or survive through such but given void mundus (will be when the crt gets accepted) is another cosmological void of emptiness lacking all features, bar info type 2 which isn't relevant her for already discussed reasons, it doesn't really matter here, I'd maybe argue it'd win against Argosax, who to my quick reading doesn't have any feats of the sort, dante does have feats but gets ****** over through the EE, but Void Mundus just stonefaces that shit

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

but if speed is unequalised then Chaos nuke will happen before mundus EE and people comparable can stay in the void

Passive stuff is passive, already there. Unequal speed would be relevant if someone was immeasurable since that's what is needed to "dodge" passive stuff

In theory as most characters don't exactly showcase the ability to act in such a scenario even if they can regenerate or survive through such but given void mundus (will be when the crt gets accepted) is another cosmological void of emptiness lacking all features, bar info type 2 which isn't relevant her for already discussed reasons, it doesn't really matter here, I'd maybe argue it'd win against Argosax, who to my quick reading doesn't have any feats of the sort, dante does have feats but gets ****** over through the EE, but Void Mundus just stonefaces that shit

Dante is gonna get resistance to EE too tho, he stands within the Void King and that is stated to kill everyone

Also, other chars like OG Mundus and basically everyone else can exist and act as Souls so not even an incap

 

[CasperSenar]

So I can submit any character that's l1c here?

 

[CasperSenar]

yes

Ok so where would this guy scale at?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Primordial_Chaos_(Lego_Monkie_Kid)