Devil May Cry: Low 1-C

[HelloThere1089]

Wasn't that already rejected for the exact same reasoning in multiple threads before?!?

I remember, in fact, participating in extensive discussions over this.

Could that be the 2A container thread? No that is different

 

[Agnaa]

Sounds like it's the same.

"There's a multiverse" and "something in it is described as infinite" being used to argue for 2-A or Low 1-C despite that being completely insubstantial at that point. Since High 3-A and Low 2-C spaces are contained in multiverses, and are infinite, without bumping up those larger spaces.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Sounds like it's the same.

"There's a multiverse" and "something in it is described as infinite" being used to argue for 2-A or Low 1-C despite that being completely insubstantial at that point. Since High 3-A and Low 2-C spaces are contained in multiverses, and are infinite, without bumping up those larger spaces.

no?!

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

This is a simple 5th dimensional axis is non-insignificant, thus low1C. Curse this battleboarding jargon.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Sounds like it's the same.

"There's a multiverse" and "something in it is described as infinite" being used to argue for 2-A or Low 1-C despite that being completely insubstantial at that point. Since High 3-A and Low 2-C spaces are contained in multiverses, and are infinite, without bumping up those larger spaces.

No.
1. DW contains multiple Low 2C structures, few of which are infinite sized spatially. Thus requiring DW to separate them on a 5th axis.
2. DW itself is stated to be infinite.
This is the argument. OP correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Agnaa]

No.
1. DW contains multiple Low 2C structures, few of which are infinite sized spatially. Thus requiring DW to separate them on a 5th axis.
2. DW itself is stated to be infinite.
This is the argument. OP correct me if I am wrong.

That's insufficient.

By containing a Low 2-C space, it is already infinite, so that doesn't bump it above what it already is from other evidence.

Every multiverse is separated on a 5th axis, and is infinite, yet they remain Tier 2.

This is the exact same shit that's been rejected repeatedly, because it's taking things which apply to every series and trying to misconstrue it into higher tiers.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Every multiverse is separated on a 5th axis, and is infinite, yet they remain Tier 2.

Idk why you keep bringing up us scaling the multiverse. When we are scaling the realm which is containing the multiverse.

 

[Ommf_Deity]

Summary Time​

The argument relies on two specific FAQs in which both require demonstrating that the Demon World is a continuous, uncountable, infinite higher-dimensional object relative to the 4-dimensional universes it contains. This includes the Human World and many other dimensions which is treated as a dimensional subset within the Demon World.

The argument begins with the Chaos Timeline which is a unique region that exists between universes and is explicitly described as a crack or rift between worlds. This region includes locations such as Nightmare Space where Helfilth typically resides. Helfilth is described as a master of dimensional rifts and is stated to wander "beyond time and space." Additionally, I used a scan that puts both Human and Demon World as lower and upper realms respectively whose purpose was to reinforce that their relationship is hierarchical rather than equivalent or symmetrical.

The next step addresses significance of whether the higher-dimensional object in question is infinite as a whole. This is directly supported by statements describing Demon World as an infinite, unending and endless darkness and not merely a large or expanding space. This distinction is crucial because an expansive space can still be infinite of unknown range whereas the text describes an infinity in its entirety.

As for how the thread has progressed so far? The discussion mainly centered on how the scans connect to one another and whether the "line of light" should be treated as a contradiction or as a supporting evidence. Vietthai argued that it must appear as a 2D flat space to be convincing whereas my position was that it only needs to function as a dimensional subset and not a geometrically flattened panel. Ultimately, the discussion converged on a possible 5D spatial interpretation with Planck and KingTempest later entering the thread and fully agreeing with a significant 5D space.

You can tag mods for better view over the situation

...

 

[Agnaa]

Idk why you keep bringing up us scaling the multiverse. When we are scaling the realm which is containing the multiverse.

There is no meaningful difference, unless you already have evidence that the realm is superior, which you clearly don't since you're taking roundabout paths like this.

 

[HelloThere1089]

There is no meaningful difference, unless you already have evidence that the realm is superior, which you clearly don't since you're taking roundabout paths like this.

Read the blog or the summary linked in my first reply to you.

 

[Agnaa]

Read the blog or the summary linked in my first reply to you.

Again, it does not substantiate that. As I already said, and as staff overall said the previous times this exact sort of argument was attempted.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

There is no meaningful difference, unless you already have evidence that the realm is superior, which you clearly don't since you're taking roundabout paths like this.

Have looked at it or you going off of Mandela effect memory?

What more superiority do you need?

 

[Hecky2222]

Again, it does not substantiate that. As I already said, and as staff overall said the previous times this exact sort of argument was attempted.

I mean Chaos stuff seems like wasn't brought up in previous CRT so you probably should check it and tell if that qualifies or no

 

[Ommf_Deity]

In the 1st page, 1st message by OP.

 

[HelloThere1089]

I'd like people to either remember the exact argumentation used in these "previous threads" and address them in reference to the OP, or just not bring them up, especially if the previous threads in question were 2A threads and not Low 1C.

 

[Agnaa]

I mean Chaos stuff seems like wasn't brought up in previous CRT so you probably should check it and tell if that qualifies or no

I fundamentally cannot tell what that is supposed to evidence. "There is a space between worlds" is not very important. Neither is "wandering beyond time or space" in this context.

I'd like people to either remember the exact argumentation used in these "previous threads" and address them in reference to the OP, or just not bring them up, especially if the previous threads in question were 2A threads and not Low 1C.

Yeah, the whole "it's called endless" and "there's a line of light" things were the exact argumentation used before, and were ultimately taken to not bump it up beyond the number of timelines in the setting.

In the 1st page, 1st message by OP.

First, I established that the space between universes is separated by a distinct layer of space and time. I have shown that this layer operates under different laws which makes it fundamentally separate and therefore, acts as an undeniable evidence of dimensional stratification or difference.

That does not evidence that.

Next, I supported this with transcendent evidence specifically through nightmare space which implies to function beyond the standard universal model and reinforce the higher-dimensional interpretation.

No it doesn't, it doesn't do that in any way.

Lastly, I have provided a clear and unambiguous description stating that the higher-dimensional object is infinite as a whole, not merely something that expands infinitely.

This was heavily contested in the past; I wouldn't call it "clear and unambiguous", and even if taken as true, it wouldn't be particularly important, as it would already be infinite by scaling above a timeline.

Additionally, the description implicitly allows interpretation of "dimensional slices" corresponding to lower-dimensional structures which is represented here by Human World.

No it doesn't, that's a gross misinterpretation. It's just typical "light and darkness" stuff that is being twisted into this, beyond any sense. The actual image shown, and any coherent interpretation of the metaphor go against that. So does the broader context of the series pitting the two against each other.

 

[Ommf_Deity]

You should probably wait for the op to
wake up, cuz he explains it better than I do

 

[Agnaa]

I mean shit dude I was just asked to come in to answer one question, I'd rather not be made to sit through a recounting of this stuff for the fourth time. That takes up far too much of my question budget.

 

[Vietthai96]

Oke, i will summerise all this. The core argument is

1. Demon Realm contains multiple Low 2-C structures, thus it is a container and also a space that separate these 4D structure. Thus make it a 5D space

2. Demon Realm is stated to be infinite in size, and it is a 5D space thus make the realm infinite 5D space, in turn make it Low 1-C

Of course Sonic can clarify his stance. Though the ray of light stuff is mostly not relevant to the discussion

I mean shit dude I was just asked to come in to answer one question, I'd rather not be made to sit through a recounting of this stuff for the fourth time. That takes up far too much of my question budget.

Sorry my fault

 

[HelloThere1089]

Yeah, the whole "it's called endless" and "there's a line of light" things were the exact argumentation used before, and were ultimately taken to not bump it up beyond the number of timelines in the setting.

There is a difference between a 5D container being implicitly infinite simply because it holds 4D constructs that are infinite, and the 5D container itself being stated to be infinite. If someone says a universe is infinite, they usually mean it is infinite in all 3 dimensions, and not just 2 dimensions. So if the 5D DW is itself called infinite, it should be assumed that it is infinite in all of it's spatial axes. It would be insignificant if it weren't stated to be infinite. Then you can assume that it's 5th axis is insignificant. Otherwise can you give me examples of how a fiction would even portray such a statement about a 5th axis?

 

[Agnaa]

Oke, i will summerise all this. The core argument is

1. Demon Realm contains multiple Low 2-C structures, thus it is a container and also a space that separate these 4D structure. Thus make it a 5D space

2. Demon Realm is stated to be infinite in size, and it is a 5D space thus make the realm infinite 5D space, in turn make it Low 1-C

Of course Sonic can clarify his stance. Though the ray of light stuff is mostly not relevant to the discussion

Again, I'd say this wouldn't qualify, just as it didn't the last time this exact same argument was used for the same ends.

Yes, 15 months ago, "2-A, possibly Low 1-C" was being argued for DMC by SuperSonicTL based on that exact same argument.

There is a difference between a 5D container being implicitly infinite simply because it holds 4D constructs that are infinite, and the 5D container itself being stated to be infinite. If someone says a universe is infinite, they usually mean it is infinite in all 3 dimensions, and not just 2 dimensions. So if the 5D DW is itself called infinite, it should be assumed that it is infinite in all of it's spatial axes. It would be insignificant if it weren't stated to be infinite. Then you can assume that it's 5th axis is insignificant. Otherwise can you give me examples of how a fiction would even portray such a statement about a 5th axis?

Please read my previous engagement with this topic, if you want my opinion.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Again, I'd say this wouldn't qualify, just as it didn't the last time this exact same argument was used for the same ends.

Yes, 17 months ago, "2-A, possibly Low 1-C" was being argued for DMC by SuperSonicTL based on that exact same argument.

Please read my previous engagement with this topic, if you want my opinion.

it says no results found for me

 

[Agnaa]

it says no results found for me

Oh weird. Well, I made a bunch of posts in this thread about it.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Oh weird. Well, I made a bunch of posts in this thread about it.

Now I have to read a 9 page CRT.

 

[Robo432343]

This post from the previous thread sums it up nicely.

1) No. Just containing multiple 4D structures just makes you multiverse-sized. And being called infinite in no way means being infinite in terms of a 5D axis. Anything containing an infinite universe is infinite. That we have the difference between countably infinite and uncountably infinite as the difference between dimensional levels (as, amongst others, explained in the multiverse example) is just the cherry on top.
2) I believe our pages on dimensionality sufficiently explain how infinity on one-dimensional level is not considered infinity on another. That for a general infinity statement it has to be said regarding which dimensional level it is infinite seems like a pretty clear consequence.
The difference between countably and uncountably, in which it must be clear that infinite multipliers need to be uncountably higher for a higher level, also seems sufficiently explained IMO.

A lot of people seem to think its different for DMC because the argument is, 'Well not only does the Demon World which is infinite in size contain 4-D realms, but it also contains another infinite sized 4-D realm which are the Nirvana realms.' But it turns out this does not really change anything. What i am curious about is that the other argument is, 'The Mirror World which is a 4-D realm is simply just an entrance to the encompassing Demon World.' This is the 'superiority' part that has not really been discussed. It would be good if this part gets more clarification.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

That does not evidence that.

Perhaps it do for some and perhaps it doesn't... If common sense is applied here then it should be noted that 4th dimension worlds cannot co-exist without any additional degree of freedom to separate them. It's not a rocket science anyways. What I did is reinforced it more.

Perhaps a better call would be you explaining how multiple space-times remain non-overlapping within the same dimensional brane. This is of course assuming you either are disagreeing with the idea or the provided evidence for it. Then you can leave this question.

No it doesn't, it doesn't do that in any way.

'Beyond space and time" is no different then saying it "transcends space and time". You’re asserting "it doesn’t do that in any way" but without addressing the claim being made. A realm explicitly described as operating outside the standard space-time model is, by definition, not governed by the same dimensional constraints.

Whether you personally accept "beyond space and time" as transcendence or not, you still need to explain how such a space is meaningfully comparable to an internal universal model. That's besides the fact that the entire chapter is dedicated to introducing Helfilth and his domain whose defining trait is traversing beyond time and space.

This was heavily contested in the past; I wouldn't call it "clear and unambiguous", and even if taken as true, it wouldn't be particularly important, as it would already be infinite by scaling above a timeline.

Whether this description was contested in the past is irrelevant unless you can show why the interpretation is invalid. More importantly, "already infinite by scaling above a timeline" is not the same claim I’m making. The text describes the structure by itself as endless, not merely infinite relative to something finite. This matters because relative scaling does not guarantee absolute infinite nature of the containing space. Now, as I said before in the OP, unless you wish to be inconsistent and treat infinite universe as finite then you have no other reason to not accept this idea. The author is not required to over-specify this any further for the statement to hold. This isn't some XianXia novel.

No it doesn't, that's a gross misinterpretation. It's just typical "light and darkness" stuff that is being twisted into this, beyond any sense.

A universe can't appear as a line. If anything, it's a supporting evidence at worst. It's typical for bulk to contain branes at 4th axis as we can see through Chaos Timeline.

The actual image shown, and any coherent interpretation of the metaphor go against that. So does the broader context of the series pitting the two against each other.

There is no visual panel being interpreted here and thus, the "light and darkness imagery" objection doesn’t apply. What we have is a direct narrative description about an infinite darkness within which a line of light appears and from this separation the Human World and Demon World are established. As for broader context, the only reason it even is pitted against each other is due to their opposing nature which is relevant to the plot.

Besides all this, I don't need personal opinions about some general idea here. The man who put GoW at Low 1-C already on this site stated clearly why the infinite part is more then enough to reinforce a Low 1-C place which is no different then anything I'm arguing on this thread.

 

[Hecky2222]

Beyond space and time" is no different then saying it "transcends space and time". You’re asserting "it doesn’t do that in any way" but without addressing the claim being made. A realm explicitly described as operating outside the standard space-time model is, by definition, not governed by the same dimensional constraints.


Besides all this, I don't need personal opinions about some general idea here. The man who put GoW at Low 1-C already on this site stated clearly why the infinite part is more then enough to reinforce a Low 1-C place which is no different then anything I'm arguing on this thread.

Reading GoW Cosmology this seems like Ygdrassil which is infinite transcending other 2C realms

Also transcending space-time in Q/A section already mentioned it can be anything starting from Acausality to BDE Type 1. Unless you can prove how DW transcends HW at size I think Agnaa makes more sense ngl

 

[KLOL506]

Please do not bring in other verses in a whataboutism attempt to boost your own. GoW's Yggdrasil has different arguments going for it instead of simply "muh container". What works for one verse may not work for another. That is all.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Reading GoW Cosmology this seems like Ygdrassil which is infinite transcending other 2C realms

Also transcending space-time in Q/A section already mentioned it can be anything starting from Acausality to BDE Type 1. Unless you can prove how DW transcends HW at size I think Agnaa makes more sense ngl

There is no claim of some vague "infinite transcending" here. The Chaos Timeline functions is structurally comparable to Realm Between Realms and the comparison to Yggdrasil is actually supportive to Demon World rather than contradictory. In GoW, Yggdrasil’s qualification comes from explicit statements of infinite branch, not merely from the word "transcendence" being used in isolation.

Likewise, references to "beyond space and time" are not being used as a standalone win condition. the borderline context is that Helfilth explicitly described as existing and operating within the Chaos Timeline (and by extension Demon World) or the very fact that it exists as a rift or crack between worlds. At the very least, this establishes that there are domains not constrained by a simple space-time which is key point here.

Lastly, the argument does not depend on some special Q&A interpretations like acausality or BDE, neither am I going to care what it states. If multiple complete 4D universes are separated and organized within a larger structure, then by status quo an additional independent axis is required to account for that separation. A 5D bulk is not bounded by any single space-time continuum and therefore already qualify as transcending space and time in the technical (or common) sense.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

From what I can tell a world that contains Earth and the Sun and co. is generally treated as being the real universe or equivalent, same as how those planets and such are treated as comparable to their real life equivalents.

Think of Dragon Ball which features an Earth that in no way resembles any period in time, and has a panel where Jaco's ship hits the moon and the same ship is shown next to humans later, and the scans collectively make the moon look building-sized, and yet these are treated as silly scenes and the moon is rightly treated as still being the real moon.

In the anime, it states that the Universe and the Underworld are two alternative universes. Is the anime accepted as canon in an alternative timeline here? If so, I think it's fair to use that as an argument if there isn't enough evidence.

 

[Ommf_Deity]

In the anime, it states that the Dead Universe and the Underworld are two alternative universes. Is the anime accepted as canon in an alternative timeline here? If so, I think it's fair to use that as an argument if there isn't enough evidence.

The old one yes, as canon rather than alt timeline. The Netflix, not


Edit* (though i kinda remeber reading an article news saying the Netflix is AU)

 

[KLOL506]

There is no claim of some vague "infinite transcending" here. The Chaos Timeline functions is structurally comparable to Realm Between Realms and the comparison to Yggdrasil is actually supportive to Demon World rather than contradictory. In GoW, Yggdrasil’s qualification comes from explicit statements of infinite branch, not merely from the word "transcendence" being used in isolation.

Likewise, references to "beyond space and time" are not being used as a standalone win condition. the borderline context is that Helfilth explicitly described as existing and operating within the Chaos Timeline (and by extension Demon World) or the very fact that it exists as a rift or crack between worlds. At the very least, this establishes that there are domains not constrained by a simple space-time which is key point here.

Once again I am going to recommend NOT to use other verses as whataboutism to support arguments for another verse's CRT.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The old one yes, as canon rather than alt timeline. The Netflix, not


Edit* (though i kinda remeber reading an article news saying the Netflix is AU)

I was referring to the Netflix one, it contains enough quotes to assume that the mortal universe is accepted as a universe.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I was referring to the Netflix one, it contains enough quotes to assume that the mortal universe is accepted as a universe.

We are not using Netflix.

 

[Hellformer]

Please do not bring in other verses in a whataboutism attempt to boost your own. GoW's Yggdrasil has different arguments going for it instead of simply "muh container". What works for one verse may not work for another. That is all.

The World Tree, Yggdrasil, contains all the nine realms within its branches. It is described as infinite in size relative to the realms, the center of the spiritual cosmos, is stated to transcend time and space and its life cycle follows a higher form of time than anything within the Nine Realms, being a higher-dimensional construct. It would thus be Low Complex Multiverse level in sheer size.

• The Yggdrasil contains the nine realms (each Low 2-C in size)
• The realm between realms (which connects these nine realms) is infinite in comparison.
• The Yggdrasil transcends space and time

This is textbook 1:1 matching if I'm not wrong. So;

1. Either this thread is approved.
2. Or nuke both of the 5-D args

 

[Random-Helper323]

Once again I am going to recommend NOT to use other verses as whataboutism to support arguments for another verse's CRT.

I must point out that whataboutism refers to the act of saying something that's wrong should be done again or justifies another wrong thing being done. If the previous act was correct then it becomes precedent rather than whataboutism.

If the set-up is different that's one thing, but the term whataboutism seems to often be used just to justify holding verses to different standards.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Once again I am going to recommend NOT to use other verses as whataboutism to support arguments for another verse's CRT.

I believe a better term would be "double standards" or "hypocrisy" of the tiering system in general but fine. Let's not go there anymore.

 

[Hecky2222]

• The Yggdrasil contains the nine realms (each Low 2-C in size)
• The realm between realms (which connects these nine realms) is infinite in comparison.
• The Yggdrasil transcends space and time

This is textbook 1:1 matching if I'm not wrong. So;

1. Either this thread is approved.
2. Or nuke both of the 5-D args

No and if you want to make GoW 5D arg invalid start another thread. This isn't excuse to how dmc should qualify for Low 1C

 

[Hellformer]

No and if you want to make GoW 5D arg invalid start another thread. This isn't excuse to how dmc should qualify for Low 1C

Not against the 5-D arg at all, just trying to say that a certain logic being reserved for a certain verse while not being applied to another, is by definition double standards.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I believe a better term would be "double standards" or "hypocrisy" of the tiering system in general but fine. Let's not go there anymore.

Robo brought up something interesting which I thought was interesting all along and seems to not be sufficiently looked into in the OP. The Mirror World is an entrance or outer layer for the DW. And I'm sure I remember reading something about the Mirror World being some kind of surface layer of the Demon World or some kind of thin layer between the worlds.

There's also the very obvious hypertimeline, which adds support to the idea of a larger cosmology.