MG: Another Info type 2 removal

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

information being a fundamental aspect is precisaly what separets type 1 from type 2

You can have AE(Info type 1 or Memory/Knowledge)

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

not how it works
seeing how the OP has wrong impression and misconception about Type 2 info
best not to make back and forth and just present the counteargument and scans and let mods decide

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Those "information" are memory/knowledge and there is nothing that disqualify info type 1 from being a fundamental aspect, but it will still be memory/knowledge that could manipulated by any Info type 1 manipulator.

What in the claptrap is this argument? Any information which is fundamental to the reality itself is NOT IF1, IF1 are informations which aren't fundamental to reality but only a specific aspects of said reality.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Those "information" are memory/knowledge and there is nothing that disqualify info type 1 from being a fundamental aspect, but it will still be memory/knowledge that could manipulated by any Info type 1 manipulator.

Lore and legends are not "memories". Plus, you realize "knowledge" is information right? The difference is that this "knowledge" governs and shapes existence. Therefore, it cant be Type 1. That is the whole point of separating mental knowledge from fundamental knowledge.

So a god bodies is made from the world memory. How is that type 2 ?

They are not just memories but recollections and inscriptions acting as the "data" of the world, which the god of traces has also used to actualize events into being.

 

[Vietthai96]

I disagree with this thread

Idk how many times I said this in the past: as long as information is a fundamental element that makes up something, be it an object, person, or even a realm, it qualifies as Information Type 2. Spirits and their realm were literally made by rumors, stories that are equivalent to information; altering these things literally will alter the corresponding spirit. If they go against these rumors, they literally disappear. All these feats support the fact that this information is fundamental. It being knowledge information or memory information or whatever doesn't matter; Type 1 and 2 differentiate themselves based on feats. Type 1 have no impact on anything rather than simply being knowledges or memories; Type 2, the information is fundamental and define thing itself

 

[DemonKing021]

Going to work in few hours can't bother to look for scans.

Got you covered

It's a seperate space which exist & doesn't exist. Hard to explain basically it's existence changes based on rumours.

“While Aharthern is a nation, it is also a spirit.”
“A spirit? Even though it’s a forest?”
“Aharthern, the Great Spirit Forest, was created from the legend of a mysterious forest where the great spirits reside. The forest is alive and constantly on the move. It possesses no magic, so it cannot be seen using Magic Eyes. It’s very rarely sighted with the naked eye.”
“How can a moving forest avoid being seen?”
“As I said, Aharthern is based on the legend of a mysterious forest—it emerges and vanishes with the fog. Its entrance is decided by certain conditions, and said conditions depend on ever-changing rumors. The last time I visited, the rumor was of a fog that appeared on a moonlit night in spring, on the bank of the holy lake. Throwing blue candy into the mist would lure out the playful fairies who could guide you into the forest.”
Chapter 17, Volume 4 Act 1

Which also contains things like Great serpent which is big enough to circle the earth around 333 times I guess forgot.

The Scarlet Stele King stood up. “The Long Snake Epiteo is a spirit born from the legend of the longest snake in the world. When it first came to be, it was long enough to circle the world, but the rumors grew more exaggerated over time. Now the snake is long enough to wrap around the world roughly three hundred and thirty-three times. Because of that length, it can live only in the magic swamp in the spirit school’s grounds, although it is said to extend its head into the Seven Seas from time to time.”
“Good, that is correct,” Ennunien responded in a low voice.
In short, rule breakers would be punished with walking the length of the world three hundred and thirty-three times.
Chapter 25, Volume 4 Act 1

From what I remember there was a statement for it containing other dimensions too. But well whatever.

“Of course, of course. Anything is possible with the wondrous powers of a spirit, but she’d have to put in the hard work herself.”
The Great Tree Ennunien was quite the size. If the Long Snake Epiteo could live in a swamp within the grounds, then there were probably multiple dimensions here.
“This could be a good place to bring the ten thousand Zeshias,” I said to Eleonore.
Chapter 25, Volume 4 Act 1

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Lore and legends are not "memories". Plus, you realize "knowledge" is information right? The difference is that this "knowledge" governs and shapes existence. Therefore, it cant be Type 1.

Sorry, are they not the collective thoughts, memories and emotions ?

Please provide a scan that says otherwise.

They are not just memories but recollections and inscriptions acting as the "data" of the world,

Where does it say all of that ?

which the god of traces has also used to actualize into being.

A god of memory using memory seems consistent.



How is this type 2 ?

Information Manipulation (Types 1 & 2; Manipulated the knowledge of The Great Tree Ennunien so that having incorrect test answers meant you could not legitimately get a perfect test score, and could therefore make Anos' subordinates legitimately get a perfect test score even if they had incorrect test answers. Venuzdonoa can destroy anything in existence, which would include Spirits),

 

[AsterReal]

I disagree with this thread

Idk how many times I said this in the past: as long as information is a fundamental element that makes up something, be it an object, person, or even a realm, it qualifies as Information Type 2. Spirits and their realm were literally made by rumors, stories that are equivalent to information; altering these things literally will alter the corresponding spirit. If they go against these rumors, they literally disappear. All these feats support the fact that this information is fundamental. It being knowledge information or memory information or whatever doesn't matter; Type 1 and 2 differentiate themselves based on feats. Type 1 have no impact on anything rather than simply being knowledges or memories; Type 2, the information is fundamental and define thing itself

I share the same thought.

 

[Vietthai96]

How is this type 2 ?

Dude, it is for Type 1; Type 2 is because it can destroy spirit. seriously, though, I partly blame this on how the ability present itself

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I disagree with this thread

Idk how many times I said this in the past: as long as information is a fundamental element that makes up something, be it an object, person, or even a realm, it qualifies as Information Type 2. Spirits and their realm were literally made by rumors, stories that are equivalent to information; altering these things literally will alter the corresponding spirit. If they go against these rumors, they literally disappear. All these feats support the fact that this information is fundamental. It being knowledge information or memory information or whatever doesn't matter; Type 1 and 2 differentiate themselves based on feats. Type 1 have no impact on anything rather than simply being knowledges or memories; Type 2, the information is fundamental and define thing itself

That's still type 1

Types​

1. Knowledge: These characters can manipulate information as the medium of knowledge as opposed to just manipulating what a specific person knows, which would be considered Mind Manipulation. Characters with this ability can, for example, destroy information on a subject and by that make it inherently unknowable. Other examples of uses would be to prevent information from leaving an area, making it so that those outside can't gain knowledge of what is happening inside, or altering information to change what people know about the subject into something else.

Since when Type 2 is dependent on the mind ?

 

[Vietthai96]

Type 2 is not dependent on the mind.

it is dependent of mind, because Spirit themselves can't change the rumors, also the rumors will just exist even if the people who spread them die

or altering information to change what people know about the subject into something else

Type 1 only change what people know about the subject, but these rumors and stories literally define a spirit's existence.

Reno is a Great Mother Spirit, and despite her saying she isn't really the mother of every spirit, the rumors make her the mother of all spirits, and she can literally control and command all Spirits.

No offense, but you are grasping at straws.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Sorry, are they not the collective thoughts, memories and emotions

It was already sent in this thread. They are legends and rumors (lore). If the lore stops being spread, the spirit dies. But if you spread the lore back, they come back.

Where does it say all of that ?

"I am the order that inscribes records and recollections. For generations of popes, I have carved the prayers and pain. The choice is not up to me but is the will of Pope Golroana, with whom I made the pact. I merely carve the path they have walked - the history of this world - into my body."

The concept of "Nirvana Seven Steps Conquest" gives the impression of destroying the data domain by forcefully injecting a massive amount of data into it.

 

[Wesker018]

You can have AE(Info type 1 or Memory/Knowledge)

i dont think so, because the moment information constitutes the existence of an entitiy including his source(concept of existence) then we are clearly not talking about normal information type 1 anymore

1. Knowledge: These characters can manipulate information as the medium of knowledge as opposed to just manipulating what a specific person knows, which would be considered Mind Manipulation. Characters with this ability can, for example, destroy information on a subject and by that make it inherently unknowable. Other examples of uses would be to prevent information from leaving an area, making it so that those outside can't gain knowledge of what is happening inside, or altering information to change what people know about the subject into something else.

"manipulation of what a person known, destroying information to make the subject unknowable, prevent information from leaving an area... "
not part of this text says that include information composing the existence of a being up to its very concept of existence(source). Which spirits being equally real than other beings in reality, to the point that a top dog in the verse is being of information

That's still type 1

Type 2 is not dependent on the mind.

that is something you are making up lmao, there is not such requeriment as "type 2 cannot be dependant on the mind". There are verses like persona that have info type 2 based on the fact that world is in last instance a mental construct shaped by the collective thoughts iirc


but even without counting that we still have LoT, with traces being stated to be data, which underlies physical objects, world destroying powers, people's experience in battle, past, present etc


edit: sorry for my bad english, i could have used chatgpt to fix my grammar but im lazy

 

[ROZAN-U]

Type 2 is not dependent on the mind.

Oblivion already said this

If it was merely Type 1, the lore would not have any effect on their existence, since Type 1 is purely idealistic/mental, not
having any effect on reality.

Sorry, are they not the collective thoughts, memories and emotions ?

You don't even know what rumor and legends mean?
They are the story and narrative that are passed among the peope.
Where did the collective thought and memories come from?

Spirit don't die when they are forgotten, they die when there's no legends about them being spread.(People forgetting about the lore rumors of spirit and thus it not being spread and leading to a spirit death doesn't mean being forgotten is a direct cause for them dying).

 

[ThienDe01]

Yes, objects from memory. It's similar to a past replay

He even calles it memory

It is indeed memories. Those memories are the ones that recreate the objects that have appeared in the past, a prime example is the trace/memory (information) that recreated Evansmana's sword move. These qualify as Infor2 as DT said.

I wrapped my entire body in Beno Ievun and endured the demon sword’s attacks. However, just as I was about to hit back, Revalschned used the Sword of Three Races once more.

“Traces make the blade—Heaven Splitter.”

 

[ThienDe01]

I think Tatsumi is drafting a very long "wall of text" so you can understand the most details.

 

[Lycoris4812]

I agree with OP, they make perfect sense and are being very reasonable. This is not ragebait.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

it is dependent of mind,

Not the case with this verse.

because Spirit themselves can't change the rumors, also the rumors will just exist even if the people who spread them die

Problem is them being dependent on people remembering them.

Type 1 only change what people know about the subject, but these rumors and stories literally define a spirit's existence.

Reno is a Great Mother Spirit, and despite her saying she isn't really the mother of every spirit, the rumors make her the mother of all spirits, and she can literally control and command all Spirits.

So it's knowledge

It was already sent in this thread. They are legends and rumors (lore). If the lore stops being spread, the spirit dies. But if you spread the lore back, they come back.

What thread ?

i dont think so, because the moment information constitutes the existence of an entitiy including his source(concept of existence) then we are clearly not talking about normal information type 1 anymore


"manipulation of what a person known, destroying information to make the subject unknowable, prevent information from leaving an area... "
not part of this text says that include information composing the existence of a being up to its very concept of existence(source). Which spirits being equally real than other beings in reality, to the point that a top dog in the verse is being of information


that is something you are making up lmao, there is not such requeriment as "type 2 cannot be dependant on the mind". There are verses like persona that have info type 2 based on the fact that world is in last instance a mental construct shaped by the collective thoughts iirc


but even without counting that we still have LoT, with traces being stated to be data, which underlies physical objects, world destroying powers, people's experience in battle, past, present etc


edit: sorry for my bad english, i could have used chatgpt to fix my grammar but im lazy

Still memory/knowledge

Oblivion already said this



You don't even know what rumor and legends mean?
They are the story and narrative that are passed among the peope.
Where did the collective thought and memories come from?

Spirit don't die when they are forgotten, they die when there's no legends about them being spread.(People forgetting about the lore rumors of spirit and thus it not being spread and leading to a spirit death doesn't mean being forgotten is a direct cause for them dying).

You're own words

It is indeed memories. Those memories are the ones that recreate the objects that have appeared in the past, a prime example is the trace/memory (information) that recreated Evansmana's sword move. These qualify as Infor2 as DT said.

I will assume DT was talking about informations in general and Not memory/knowledge.




C'mon people bring a reason why those "information" are not memory/knowledge.

 

[ThienDe01]

I will assume DT was talking about informations in general and Not memory/knowledge.

Memory is not information? Now thanks to you I'm going to have to repeat elementary school.

Lore and legends are not "memories". Plus, you realize "knowledge" is information right? The difference is that this "knowledge" governs and shapes existence. Therefore, it cant be Type 1. That is the whole point of separating mental knowledge from fundamental knowledge.

They are not just memories but recollections and inscriptions acting as the "data" of the world, which the god of traces has also used to actualize events into being.

I don't know how to insert pictures, so I'll ask your permission to use the picture in your comment.

 

[Dereck03]

Clearly, others have already expressed their disagreement with this thread. Not only did the OP use a instigating title, but he also ignored any feasible evidence and feats that had been brought up after Info 2 was removed based on magic. What's more, he seem to simply ignore the evidence given on the table, which indicates a clear lack of knowledge about it.

Anyway, I disagree. This seems more like spite to me, since he clearly went to post this on the walls of people who actively disagreed or disagree with MG, and even on threads completely unrelated to the verse and still mocking it as wank, by the way, I suggest that the OP updates the vote tally, there seems to be an overall disagreement with the thread coming from regular users and staffs themselves, if he doesn't do it then I'll ask some of the threads mod here to edit the post and add the tally, so if someone else can make a tally then that would be much appreciated.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Besides Vietthai96, all the disagreement come from a very die hard staff member(supporters) who will agree on anything and wonder why there is this many downgrade attempts.



It's simple bring a evidence on why those "informtion" are not memory/knowledge.

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

It's simple bring a evidence on why those "informtion" are not memory/knowknowledge

Mate, they’re not arguing against the fact that it’s knowledge or memory , you’re just not understanding the ability here.

Information Type 1 and Information Type 2 have literally no difference except for one thing: Type 1 refers to information that does not affect or define reality or a person in any way, while Type 2 does.

In the case of Type 1, changing that information or knowledge wouldn’t affect the being itself , it would only alter the information or people’s perception of them. However, changing Type 2 information or knowledge would directly alter the very being itself, not just people’s understanding of them.

It’s simple: anything that is indicated to be information (knowledge, lore, text, memory, data, etc.) is considered Information Type 2 as long as it governs or defines the fundamental existence of a being or realm. If it doesn’t define that existence, then it’s Type 1. But in this case, we have statements showing that it serves as the fundamental building block of a Spirit’s existence.

 

[Vietthai96]

i'm gonna sleep soon because it is midnight in my timezone, but

Not the case with this verse.

i made some typo, but it is partially dependent on the mind

Problem is them being dependent on people remembering them.

this is simply a weakness, not an anti-feat

So it's knowledge

as i have said, knowledge or memory isn't matter; what matter is it's information or not, and what type will depend on how said information works.

Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples

As we can see, as long as information is acting in a fashion that is equally fundamental, then it is Info 2. Compare this to the Spirit in question; the fact that these rumors, lores, and stories—or, if I go by your language, knowledge—serve as fundamental elements that directly dictate the Spirit's existence means it already satisfies the requirement for Type 2. This "knowledge" being stories spread from people is irrelevant; it is fundamental to the Spirit's existence, which is what matters.

all the disagreement come from a very die hard staff member(supporters) who will agree on anything and wonder why there is this many downgrade attempts.

Just some advice: this is unnecessary. I understand there's going to be some frustration here and there in the middle of the debate, but let's not use comments that could annoying people

 

[RitsuØ1]

Trying to start a war with MG fans? Not a wise thing to do. Also, I disagree with the thread FRA.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Certified cherry picking moment below btw

Not the case with this verse.


Problem is them being dependent on people remembering them.


So it's knowledge


What thread ?


Still memory/knowledge

You're own words


I will assume DT was talking about informations in general and Not memory/knowledge.




C'mon people bring a reason why those "information" are not memory/knowledge.

 

[AlexSamDen]

Besides Vietthai96, all the disagreement come from a very die hard staff member(supporters) who will agree on anything and wonder why there is this many downgrade attempts.

So people from Tensura disagreeing with you is nothing now?

 

[Violatas]

so if someone else can make a tally then that would be much appreciated.

Just counting staff

Agree with thread: 0

Disagree: @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Vietthai96 @Dereck03

 

[Huesito88]

Just counting staff

Agree with thread: 0

Disagree: @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Vietthai96 @Dereck03

Great now let's wait for it to be posted in the OP now

 

[Dereck03]

Appreciate it, though its a weird sight for me because I always include the regular users vote count too on my threads but still, thanks.

 

[ThienDe01]

Just counting staff

Agree with thread: 0

Disagree: @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Vietthai96 @Dereck03

I disagree with thread

 

[Thermor]

Disagree, clearly the OP may have made this thread to spite against MGK and tries to start a war.

 

[AlexSamDen]

I disagree with thread

That's staff only

 

[AsterReal]

Well, that was pretty quick. So, do we close this in 48 hours, or does rejected content mean closing a thread immediately?

 

[ThienDe01]

It's simple bring a evidence on why those "informtion" are not memory/knowledge.

So my friend, let me ask you, are knowledge, memories, and rumors information? What makes you say they are not information type 2 when spirits are formed from that information?

 

[ThienDe01]

That's staff only

Ok

 

[Vesxpura]

Disagree, I feel like OP has not properly understood the info manip page, some of the mods explain the problem with the argument quite nicely, so it depends on him taking criticism or not.

 

[Wesker018]

Alright guys, I took the time to collect and organize the scans and put them here: Traces and why they are information type 2

Tell me what do you think. @FinePoint @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Dereck03 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Vietthai96 @Reiner04 @Mr. Bambu @DontTalkDT

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

This really just comes down to the usual case of someone not actually fully comprehending what qualifies as fundamental information, you don't have to mass warp reality or something to qualify for it. Anyways this has like 4 staff disagrees bro, swing and a miss. OP should also add vote tally, people have already explained how shoddy the downgrade attempt is based off various other factors, not doing that just adds fuel to the fire.

 

[AsterReal]

Alright guys, I took the time to collect and organize the scans and put them here: Traces and why they are information type 2

Tell me what do you think.

It looks good.

 

[Dog3352]

This again? And you still chose to talk about the Land of Traces and the Traces? These things are literally order, the order of the traces (and: order of traces = traces/informations) is fundamental to the existence of the world (as well as any other order).