MG: Another Info type 2 removal

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Types​

1. Knowledge: These characters can manipulate information as the medium of knowledge as opposed to just manipulating what a specific person knows, which would be considered Mind Manipulation. Characters with this ability can, for example, destroy information on a subject and by that make it inherently unknowable. Other examples of uses would be to prevent information from leaving an area, making it so that those outside can't gain knowledge of what is happening inside, or altering information to change what people know about the subject into something else.
2. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples. This may allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. The ability can come on many levels of potency. The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities to rewriting information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

---

Spirits:
Ok let's take a look at the spirits "fundamental information": (They don't even use the term "information")

• Abstract Existence (Type 1; Information Type 2, Stories, Emotions, Beliefs; The existence is of Spirits is said to come from the hearts of others. Legends, folklore, rumors, fears, beliefs, aspirations. Spirits are the realization and embodiment of these

Those "information" are collection of beliefs, emotions, memories and knowledge. i.e. mental stuff

Not enough?

Information Manipulation (Types 1 & 2. <Teles> engraves knowledge directly into the target's head. Can interact with and destroy Spirits.

This literally prove that those information are type 1.


And from here we find ou that that spirits Lore≠Source

• Immortality & Regeneration (Types 1, 3, 4 & 8 up-to High-godly; A spirit can't die as long as their rumors persist. Even if killed they shall continue to rise again as long as the rumors which form them remain. Spirits will continue to resurrect even if their source is destroyed as long as their lore remains

So the existence of spirits depend on memories/knowledge and emotions. They literally regenerate from people knowing them(Here). How cound people memories be info type 2 ?

Also spirits themselves should be changed to AE type 2 as they're not the abstraction itself and could regernerate thanks to it.

• Transformation & Statistics Amplification (All spirits have a transient form and a true form. While in their true form, they also possess far greater power, but it isn’t uncommon for their mind to stray

• Subjective Reality (Separate from a Spirit's existence and magic, their Legend itself has an influence on the world around them bringing to life what is said in the Legend. The Great Mother Spirit Reno isn't the first Spirit, neither did she biologically give birth to all Spirits but still, according to her legend, she is the mother of all Spirits and they view her as such. Because the 7 Elder Demon Emperors and other Demons from the Mythical Era appeared greatly in the Legend of the Demon King of Tyranny, that Legend strongly bound them to Avos Dilhevia's service)

Although they should keep type 1 for different reason. That's assuming they could take actions as source alone.


And from my knowledge, Info type 1 being a fundamental aspect doesn't change its nature. Otherwise every AE(Memory/Knwoledge) will become info type 2.

Conclusion: Spirits lore isn't even informations but a collection of beliefs, emotions and knwoledge which fit the description of info type 1.


Edit: In case Lore=source then will make it conceptual instead of fundamental information, because it lacks the justification for it.

---

Traces:
This one is self evident:

Information Manipulation (Type 2; Resisted the Order of Traces. While gaining an increase in power, Anos was able to resist an Egil Grone Angdroa used by the God of Traces using his order. The Order of Traces has all the information, memories and records of everything in the world, everything happened in the past to the present. All these tracks are stored in books, which are manipulated and used by the god of traces.

No fundamental information, just a "record" of the world past. The closest discription of this is the recorded memory of the world.

---

1)Do they use the term information for lore ?
No

2) Is the spirit's lore knowledge ?
Yes, it's shared rumors and stories, beliefs and emotions. And it's dependent on people remembering them.

3) Could you interact with lore through knowledge manipulation ?
Yes

4) Are spirits and Lore the same ?
No, spirits themselves and their sources are not the lore

5) Are traces records of the past ?
Yes

6) Could you recreate objects from the past using traces ?
Yes

7) Does the destruction of traces erase the past ?
No

Conclusion:

1. The spirits "information" are type 1
2. The spirits are AE type 2
3. Traces are info type 1

---

Agree: @Astral_Trinity439 , @Lycoris4812,

Disagree: Oblivion_Of_The_Endless, Vietthai96, Reiner04, Dereck03, EldemadeDityjon, Robo432343, ThienDe0, TheGreatJedi13, AsterReal, Wesker018, Ritsu, Vesxpura, Godsatoshi, Lloydblitzed

Neutral:

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

'spirits are not the abstraction itself' yet we see the spirits actively become them while also representing it in series...?

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

'spirits are not the abstraction itself' yet we see the spirits actively become them while also representing it in series...?

we gotta get this dealt with especially cause it's a bit tiring personally for how many times it's been brought up, but I have no opinion on anything else.

 

[SweetDao]

I'm not interested in the topic to be honest, but I suggest you to remove the "wank" part in the title, no matter what you think of the current abilities.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Dang, same previously debated stuffs are being brought up again.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

I suggest you to remove the "wank" part in the title, no matter what you think of the current abilities.

I wasn't gonna mention it but I'm glad you did.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I like how OP calling Tensura supporters in Tensura discussion thread to comment here but not the staffs who accepted it previously nor addressing previous thread arguments.

Random CRT

Well guys, as you know MG Info 2 was nuked a few weeks ago (here), I couldn't participate because I was NEP, well, actually I could just propose it again but I prefer to wait for volume 10 or the introduction of the silver sea to propose it to the order itself instead of Magic Formulas alone...

vsbattles.com

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

I like how OP calling Tensura supporters in Tensura discussion thread to comment here

how to say you wanna start a possible war without saying you wanna start a possible war challenge

 

[Robo432343]

I like how OP calling Tensura supporters in Tensura discussion thread to comment here but not the staffs who accepted it previously nor addressing previous thread arguments.

Random CRT

Well guys, as you know MG Info 2 was nuked a few weeks ago (here), I couldn't participate because I was NEP, well, actually I could just propose it again but I prefer to wait for volume 10 or the introduction of the silver sea to propose it to the order itself instead of Magic Formulas alone...

vsbattles.com

ok nevermind
i disagree FRA

 

[Pluto321]

following

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

• Thread starts with Title as "Wank"
• Poor arguments not even addressing previous thread arguments.
• Not addressing other arguments from Discussion thread which OP himself asked clarification.
• Posting it in Tensura Thread which is unrelated to Maou (except you only need votes agreeing with you). I'll be damned if this not spite

I'll have to disagree with the thread.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Post Number 12 and still no counter arrgument to the OP.

you're not helping your image dude.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Traces being records are already sufficient for Info type 2
They already stated it cannot be destroyed under normal means and would remain as well, Traces which are then stored.
This is important because this information affects the entirety of the past, making it fundamental to the records of what the past is that lead to the future.

Furthermore you ignored the majority of what is mentioned about the existence is of Spirits is said to come from the hearts of others. Legends, folklore, rumors, fears, beliefs, aspirations. Spirits are the realization and embodiment of these

It is talking about how all of these combined formed a spirit, which is fundamental to how spirits are and how they function, what their powers are (basically their information and details).
We literally have an entire arc where they plan to use a spirit to overwrite the entire rumor of Anos Voldiagoad and make it so Avos Dillhevia replaces him, and also gain some of his powers because of it. Not to mention the Great Tree (A Spirit) dying, affecting the world.
This makes it so the Spirits information and rumors supersede their source which are their conception.

And Teles is literally the example for info type 1. so idk what you are arguing. it talking about spirits is whats Type 2

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Neutral on that "embodiment" part but agree with the info type 2 downgrade for spirits. I'll take a look at the traces part later.

On that note, you can ping @DontTalkDT, @Theglassman12 and @Mr. Bambu on their message walls since they were in disagreement with info type 2, while the thread where it was accepted had no input from them. Though the context of both threads on what was accepted/rejected as info type 2 is different, it's info type 2 regardless, so getting input from staff knowledgeable on those things should be prioritized if possible.

And, just in case, I scrolled through the entire previous downgrade thread to check any information on Spirits' info type 2 since Dereck said all the arguments were addressed there, but it seems that part of the Op was ignored and not discussed except shortly in the last page by 2 people. @Tatsumi504 did bring up some scans here but I think they were mostly about AE, and I don't see info type 2 in them. Same for the scans by a wild @Echitesu

Said scans do talk about how said Rumors and Legends define the spirits themselves, sure, but I don't see how that's strictly info type 2 which is more about defining reality or an aspect of it.

Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples. This may allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. The ability can come on many levels of potency. The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities to rewriting information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

Unsure about the "mechanism behind magical abilities" but I don't think it fits here, and as for the later examples, definitely not any "change reality/causality/laws" present here.

Let's say someone rights a myth, and said myth becomes popular and as a result the gods from the myth manifest in reality due to the belief of people... Well, that means said belief/stories define the gods in question, not reality itself. I think it's a similar situation to the difference between CM3 and CM2 (defining reality vs scope limited to a specific individual/thing or group of them).

Edit: Also, I'm not sure if info defining a single person or group will be enough for info type 2, and personally, I don't think so. Will ask some knowledgeable staff on that on discord and give an update.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Neutral on that "embodiment" part but agree with the info type 2 downgrade.

On that note, you can ping @DontTalkDT, @Theglassman12 and @Mr. Bambu on their message walls since they were in disagreement with info type 2, while the thread where it was accepted had no input from them. Though the context of both threads on what was accepted/rejected as info type 2 is different, it's info type 2 regardless, so getting input from staff knowledgeable on those things should be prioritized if possible.

they were in disagreement with MAgic being information not Spirit

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Traces being records are already sufficient for Info type 2
They already stated it cannot be destroyed under normal means and would remain as well, Traces which are then stored.
This is important because this information affects the entirety of the past, making it fundamental to the records of what the past is that lead to the future.

Furthermore you ignored the majority of what is mentioned about the existence is of Spirits is said to come from the hearts of others. Legends, folklore, rumors, fears, beliefs, aspirations. Spirits are the realization and embodiment of these

It is talking about how all of these combined formed a spirit, which is fundamental to how spirits are and how they function, what their powers are (basically their information and details).
We literally have an entire arc where they plan to use a spirit to overwrite the entire rumor of Anos Voldiagoad and make it so Avos Dillhevia replaces him, and also gain some of his powers because of it. Not to mention the Great Tree (A Spirit) dying, affecting the world.
This makes it so the Spirits information and rumors supersede their source which are their conception.

And Teles is literally the example for info type 1. so idk what you are arguing. it talking about spirits is whats Type 2

Even the Spirit Realm (the entirety of Reality where Spirits resides) itself is a Spirit that exists in reality, but cannot be accessed from the physical world. Its conditions continue to change in accordance with how rumors change. This was the main argument in the previous thread, which the OP did not bother to address.

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

Said scans do talk about how said Rumors and Legends define the spirits themselves, sure, but I don't see how that's strictly info type 2 which is more about defining reality or an aspect of it.

Wouldn’t this still be information type 2? Like, yeah, this information doesn’t govern or define the entire reality, but it defines a being , it governs them. The information about me defines or states what kind of person I am, and changing that information would also change how I behave or who I am. Likewise, altering or erasing the rumors (information) also caused the said spirit to be erased or changed. Which, in fact, is information type 2 , the fundamental information of that spirit.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

they were in disagreement with MAgic being information not Spirit

Added this for a reason:

Though the context of both threads on what was accepted/rejected as info type 2 is different, it's info type 2 regardless, so getting input from staff knowledgeable on those things should be prioritized if possible.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

...Can we get input on the notion this thread from the op could be spite based as well??

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Wouldn’t this still be information type 2? Like, yeah, this information doesn’t govern or define the entire reality, but it defines a being , it governs them.

By the way, in this setting, Information does governs the entirety of reality. The Spirit Realm (Which itself is a spirit) is an alternate reality that itself contains other dimensions/spaces, all of which are formed from rumors, legends, and lore.

The information about me defines or states what kind of person I am, and changing that information would also change how I behave or who I am. Likewise, altering or erasing the rumors (information) also caused the said spirit to be erased or changed. Which, in fact, is information type 2 , the fundamental information of that spirit.

Yeah this is true

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Still nothing that change the fact that those "information" are just memory/knowledge=Info type 1

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Even the Spirit Realm (the entirety of Reality where Spirits resides) itself is a Spirit that exists in reality, but cannot be accessed from the physical world. Its conditions continue to change in accordance with how rumors change. This was the main argument in the previous thread, which the OP did not bother to address.

Apologies, it's possible that I'm blind, but can you link a post where this was brought up?
Cuz other than the 2 examples I gave above which don't talk about spirit world to begin with, I did not find any discussion about this. And I can't find it here either.

Wouldn’t this still be information type 2? Like, yeah, this information doesn’t govern or define the entire reality, but it defines a being , it governs them. The information about me defines or states what kind of person I am, and changing that information would also change how I behave or who I am. Likewise, altering or erasing the rumors (information) also caused the said spirit to be erased or changed. Which, in fact, is information type 2 , the fundamental information of that spirit.

That's what I'm unsure about, as I said — Whether we apply the distinction between defining a being itself or reality in general like with CM3 and CM2/1 to Information as well. I've asked 3 staff for this on discord (namely Agnaa, FinePoint and Elizhaa) and will make another post when I get a reply.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Apologies, it's possible that I'm blind, but can you link a post where this was brought up?
Cuz other than the 2 examples I gave above, I did not find any discussion about this. And I can't find it here either.

?
Dereck literally mentioned this in the previous thread.

As stated in the Spirit Forest, it completely lacks any magic and continues to exist as a separate reality and home for these spirits. Also Genul which also has NEP thanks to rumors and legends.

 

[ThienDe01]

And from here we find ou that that spirits Lore≠Source

The legend of the spirit is the source of spirit because the power of the spirit turns the legend into the source.

“Your source is shaped by a rumor or legend. That means that rumor or legend has taken on a kind of power within you that gets converted into your source. If I link your source to Sheila’s, you may be able to send your power to her before it undergoes that conversion, helping her recover to some extent.

I think trace is info2 when the trace/memory of the world can recreate objects in the past.

“The Divine Dragon has already passed, but the God of Traces governs the order of records and memories. Revalschned continues to leave traces of the Divine Dragon’s song after the dragon’s death.”

“Oh, I see!” Eleonore replied. “It has to recreate the singing, so it constantly remains in Jiordal.”

“The song of the Divine Dragon is like a dragon’s domain. It serves as armor protecting the kingdom from outside enemies.”

“Demon King of the world above,” Golroana said in a songlike voice, “when judgment visits you, your body will be torn apart by the blade of divine light. Book of Traces, Chapter One: ‘Azbef.’”

Revalschned opened the white book in his hand. That was probably the Book of Traces. Light surrounded the book as it floated into the air and transformed into a holy sword—Evansmana, the Sword of Three Races.

The god took the sword into his hand.

“There’s nothing to fear from a god whose order is just to look back on the past, and you can always pacify him if he wakes up grumpy.”

“Revalschned is capable of reproducing the marks of the entire world.In that regard, he is most certainly capable of recreating the worst calamities ever to befall this world.”

I wrapped my entire body in Beno Ievun and endured the demon sword’s attacks. However, just as I was about to hit back, Revalschned used the Sword of Three Races once more.

“Traces make the blade—Heaven Splitter.”

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Still nothing that change the fact that those "information" are just memory/knowledge=Info type 1

Okay, so you agree that memories and knowledge are information, but you think that it's just IF1 ?

Well, they are IF2 as spirits are composed off nothing but these informations entirely, starting from their source upto to their nonphysical bodies, entirety of the "reality" which is the entire spirit here.

DT explains how a rock can be IF2 itself if it's entire existence is made up off nothing but information itself, in this thread here. https://vsbattles.com/threads/magic-formulas-are-not-im-2.176921/post-6973926

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Still nothing that change the fact that those "information" are just memory/knowledge=Info type 1

fundamental memory and knowledge. not some knowledge or information of an entity that is mundane

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

?
Dereck literally mentioned this in the previous thread.

Ah, I was searching for the keyword "Spirit World". My bad.

Is Spirit Forrest another Space-Time continuum or simply a confined space separated from the physical world?

This one is self evident:

Anyways this.
I'm neutral for now but leaning towards disagreeing with a downgrade for this.

The scans show how God of Traces was able to realize chains/flames in reality by doing something with the traces. And as for what I'm neutral, I'd like to get some more info on this from the supporters:

1. Does the God of Traces simply write something in the book (traces) and it results in said thing being manifested in reality? Or is there another different mechanism involved, such as realizing an attack already written on the book onto reality?
2. I remember there being a feat where Anos destroyed the land of traces, yet apparently at that time the past recorded in those traces was supposedly not destroyed. What's the explanation behind that?

Preferably, I'd like the responses to have scans included. I don't mind waiting.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

?
Dereck literally mentioned this in the previous thread.

So ?

Still doesn't change its nature which is just memory/knowledge+emotions.

The legend of the spirit is the source of spirit because the power of the spirit turns the legend into the source.

I think trace is info2 when the trace/memory of the world can recreate objects in the past.

Yes, objects from memory. It's similar to a past replay

He even calles it memory

“The Divine Dragon has already passed, but the God of Traces governs the order of records and memories. Revalschned continues to leave traces of the Divine Dragon’s song after the dragon’s death.”

“Revalschned is capable of reproducing the marks of the entire world.In that regard, he is most certainly capable of recreating the worst calamities ever to befall this world.”

Okay, so you agree that memories and knowledge are information, but you think that it's just IF1 ?

Well, they are IF2 as spirits are composed off nothing but these informations entirely, starting from their source upto to their nonphysical bodies, entirety of the "reality" which is the entire spirit here.

And spirits die when they're forgotten. You know that AE(Memory/Knwoledge) exist, right? And that doesn't change its nature.


Please provide evidence of these information not being memory/knowledge.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Anyways this.
I'm neutral for now but leaning towards disagreeing with a downgrade for this.

The scans show how God of Traces was able to realize chains/flames in reality by doing something with the traces. And as for what I'm neutral, I'd like to get some more info on this from the supporters:

1. Does the God of Traces simply write something in the book (traces) and it results in said thing being manifested in reality? Or is there another different mechanism involved, such as realizing an attack already written on the book onto reality?
2. I remember there being a feat where Anos destroyed the land of traces, yet apparently at that time the past recorded in those traces was supposedly not destroyed. What's the explanation behind that?

Preferably, I'd like the responses to have scans included. I don't mind waiting.

From what I read, he has everything(the past) recorded(memory) in that book and he can replay/recreate those events.


It's possible to recreate something from memory.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

And spirits die when they're forgotten.

Okay so ?

You know that AE(Memory/Knwoledge) exist, right? And that doesn't change its nature.


Please provide evidence of these information not being memory/knwoledge.

Now you are backpedaling on your own prior acceptance of memories being information. If your own stance itself is inconsistent, what's the point of giving you any follow up replies ?

Why do i need to give evidences for information not being memories, when OP themselves agree that it is, and which I showed how they are fundamental to the reality, therefore being IF2.

Memories and knowledges by definition are information themselves, so doesn't matter if they can be abstraction, as they are information based abstractions.

 

[AsterReal]

I have to disagree. The argument is simply "it's not type 2 information because it's type 1 information."

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

As others have said, the spirits stuff cant be Type 1 since the lore governs and shapes their existence. If it was merely Type 1, the lore would not have any effect on their existence, since Type 1 is purely idealistic/mental, not having any effect on reality.

Regarding traces, GreatJedi sums up well. Besides, the God of Traces IS the traces themselves (literally his body), it's used interchangeably with the land of traces. He uses his book as a catalyst to choose specific traces to use/manifest.

So I disagree with the thread.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Ah, I was searching for the keyword "Spirit World". My bad.

Is Spirit Forrest another Space-Time continuum or simply a confined space separated from the physical world?

It's a seperate space which exist & doesn't exist. Hard to explain basically it's existence changes based on rumours. Which also contains things like Great serpent which is big enough to circle the earth around 333 times I guess forgot. Also Gennul which is NEP type 3 spirit which also possesses a dimension inside of it. From what I remember there was a statement for it containing other dimensions too. But well whatever. Going to work in few hours can't bother to look for scans. If this thread is going on and I'm interested I'll comment otherwise this is my last message.

So ?

Still doesn't change its nature which is just memory/knowledge+emotions.

What do you call these things if they acts as fundamental stuff to some characters & their entire existence can be modified or erased or brought back by manipulating this? You do know memory & knowledge are information themselves? Normally they are type 1 since they don't affect reality in a sense where it would affect fundamental stuff of any characters here context is different & they act as type 2 since they are fundamental information needed for characters existence. You are just ignoring it.

At this point I can't take you seriously. Give a proper arguments or just don't reply. Your entire arguments looks like spite. Not to mention your behaviour in Tensura Thread.

 

[ROZAN-U]

I remember there being a feat where Anos destroyed the land of traces, yet apparently at that time the past recorded in those traces was supposedly not destroyed. What's the explanation behind that?

Since oblivion already explained 1.
All the traces in LOT were destroyed but since god of traces didn't die(gods can't die during selection judgement), the order of traces wasn't disturbed so the traces/past was still maintained by it.

 

[Wesker018]

Does the God of Traces simply write something in the book (traces) and it results in said thing being manifested in reality? Or is there another different mechanism involved, such as realizing an attack already written on the book onto reality?

since nobody is responding this here you have:

the book contains traces of the world, past to present, and he can use those traces like when he shown to be able to literally manifes/create(i dont know what would be the proper word for the feat) lay's sword evansmana, and even lay's skill and experience in battle. He was also able to recreate EGA the world destroying attack.


if it helps for something we also have WoG calling traces data.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

As others have said, the spirits stuff cant be Type 1 since the lore governs and shapes their existence. If it was merely Type 1, the lore would not have any effect on their existence, since Type 1 is purely idealistic/mental, not having any effect on reality.

Those "information" are memory/knowledge and there is nothing that disqualify info type 1 from being a fundamental aspect, but it will still be memory/knowledge that could manipulated by any Info type 1 manipulator.

Regarding traces, GreatJedi sums up well. Besides, the God of Traces IS the traces themselves (literally his body), it's used interchangeably with the land of traces. He uses his book as a catalyst to choose specific traces to use/manifest.

So I disagree with the thread.

So a god bodies is made from the world memory. How is that type 2 ?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

if it helps for something we also have WoG calling traces data.

Yeah this cements it more.

 

[ROZAN-U]

there is nothing that disqualify info type 1 from being a fundamental aspect,

Really?

 

[Robo432343]

if it helps for something we also have WoG calling traces data.

.

we should just use this scan on the profile

 

[Wesker018]

there is nothing that disqualify info type 1 from being a fundamental aspect

information being a fundamental aspect is precisaly what separets type 1 from type 2