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Magic Formulas are not IM 2

I've been asked to comment on this matter.

I agree with Bambu and DT that the scans provided don't support information manipulation. If there were some indication, for one example, that the individuals were capable of changing how a particular formula manifests (for example, making a formula that would normally create one spell create a different spell), then there would at least be some talking point here. But it just talks about using already preexisting formulas within reality to create magic, not any particular capacities of the users.

Using those formulas to create magic is as much information manipulation as me posting this reply is technology manipulation. I'm not manipulating technology, at least not in the sense that the wiki uses the term - I just have a tool in front of me that exists and which I can use for its purpose.
 
Magic operates based on spell formulas, which are theoretical and practical blueprints that determine the properties and function of a spell. Changing a formula changes how magic behaves. This means the formula acts as an informational construct that determines the spell’s nature. If the formula is erased or rewritten, the spell ceases to function or takes on new properties. This suggests that magic does not exist independently but is entirely dependent on the underlying information in the formula.

What do you think of giving Limited or possible Info type 2? Ultima said it's good enough to give limited info 2 for spells.
No. That is just basic magic of virtually every verse. All you're really saying is that there is a mechanism for how magic works.

As said, information being fundamental to reality means more than having some formula dictate the structure and conversion of magic power. It means reality itself must be composed of the information. You would need to be able to pick up a random rock and explain the rock's whole existence as actually being nothing but information.
 
No. That is just basic magic of virtually every verse. All you're really saying is that there is a mechanism for how magic works.

As said, information being fundamental to reality means more than having some formula dictate the structure and conversion of magic power. It means reality itself must be composed of the information. You would need to be able to pick up a random rock and explain the rock's whole existence as actually being nothing but information.
I guess then information page should be changed little bit then for more clarification, about world it self made of information. Since even Ultima agreed that with current page, it's Limited information 2 for spells.
 
I guess then information page should be changed little bit then for more clarification, about world it self made of information. Since even Ultima agreed that with current page, it's Limited information 2 for spells.
It is clearly mentioned that information must make up the world/reality.
These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples.

using op's logic shouldn't we have info manip type 3 and 4 just like concept manip?
No, the problem here is that formulas are not information and even if they were, they do not make up the reality.
 
Tbf, i don't think we need information that made up reality as in the cosmology or universe, it could make up anything, as long as it is fundamental information that define thing it is Info 2, though i'm neutral on this thread, since i'm also interest in these case about info 2 and supernatural formula, blueprint thing
 
I agree with the thread, you guys are missing the entire point — Atleast, from what could I interpret about the new formulation is that things like "programmable spells" aren't Information Type 2 by nature but rather it is not Type 2 Information if the information mentioned does not correlate with reality whatsoever..
 
We see no mention of any information in the scans presented for this, but only how each Magic Formula is a different spell... Yeah, that's literally how all magic works...

And if you wanna argue for it, you need much more evidence than this, with them at least mentioning "information," other than just different magical formulas having different results (Spells), since this is no different than every other magic from every other verse that uses chants or symbols for their own magic, where the different chats/symbols results in a different result (spell).
Information doesn't have to be stated, not using typical powerscaling jargon doesn't mean it cannot be reasoned to be information. It's the same as saying "unless "concept", is mentioned it isn't conceptual manipulation".
On the other hand, there's something wrong in your argument. Concentrating on the parts I bolded, the reasoning was never "each magic formula is a different spell", the generalization too is also out of place.

Yes different magic verses use chants and symbols that's common place however, runes, chants, symbols etc. cannot be generalized to spell formula, they can only be generalized to magic/ spell circles. A spell formula is an underlining practical and theoretical formula, the core of a spell that dictates it's function. It's a fundamental component in it. Using a simplified process "Draw magic circle>shoot fire", the fire released would've have it's underlying spell formula at the core which enables it to function.
There's nothing manipulating information, though. It's like calling chemistry information manipulation, because chemistry follows the exact same premise- if you change the formula, you get a different result. This is a nothingburger of a justification, it is strictly expose on how the magic works.
No offense intended but this is a poor comparison. A chemical formula or even mathematical formulas in general are just symbols used to express, the structure of compounds, rules on how elements interact. Writing out and editing a chemical formula doesn't change how one element would react with another but on the other hand, manipulating spell formulae would manipulate and determine a spell's properties, function and how they interact with each other.
The magic itself isn't information or analogous to it- or if it is, you've been wasting time arguing about the presence of the formulae being the justification for information manip. So whatever magic is, changing the formula of it doesn't render it information manipulation. No information is in fact manipulated. Just the means of creating the magic is, thus yielding a different result. That's just like. How things tend to work. In real life, and in this fictional verse.
Magic itself was never information though just the spell formula/core underlying in it. Changing that formula regardless of what it is would infact be the manipulation of it no? You're also misunderstanding, the means of creating magic is the magic/spell circle that too can be manipulated as well but it doesn't fundamentally change the spell.
I'm pretty sure reality on page refers to the reality of the universe in verse. And you're right, it is necessary, but that information can just be knowledge, doesn't have to be the building blocks of reality.
Except knowledge isn't the core of something neither can it alter it. A part of reality is still reality either way isn't it?
Something being a possible use of an ability does not mean that having that grants the ability. E.g. a possible use of plot manipulation is altering concepts, but that does not mean that you get plot manipulation just by altering concepts. You actually have to meet all the requirements for plot manipulation independently of that feat.
It's basically confusing cause and effect. The same effect can be achieved by many causes.
Isn't that kind of backwards? It wouldn't be a possible use in this case, since it is said to be "formulae" but I do understand what you're saying.
Unless it's like Kawakami-verse and all of reality is composed of magic formulas that doesn't work. From what I see magic formulas here are just the thing giving magic structure, not things that define the fundamental nature of matter and energy as a whole. (i.e. not fundamental building blocks of reality)
This seems to also fall under what you said above. For the verse you outlined, magic formula's are information, in that case, there's no question that something described as "magic formulas" are in fact information the only difference being how they affect reality however, simply defining reality isn't what makes them information. In this case, a spell is still a part of reality, that doesn't change so rather than removing it entirely, I would rather say it should be limited. Consequently, you're also saying if information subsists as a fundamental aspect of a part of reality but not all of it then it isn't information manipulation.
All the scans say at the end of the day is that "if you change how you do it, you get a different effect; we have documented how to get certain effects, and if you do it differently, you will not get the same result". Info Manip is straight up not here man.
Except that's not what it says and it's still you asserting your stance with the example of chemical formula.
NaCl + H²O= NaOH + HCl.
Changing the formula above to NaCl + H²O= H²SO⁴ doesn't affect how sodium chloride would react with water, sulphuric acid will never be the resultant of their mixture, I've only succeeded at writing something incomprehensible. The reverse however will be the case with spell formula if it is altered even without the addition of compounds that would result in the formation of sulphuric acid.
These arguments have already been debunked and debated in this thread.
Something is debunked when you've disproven the claim, all you've done is misinterpret by conflating spell formula as magic circles and generalizing it with other works of fiction.
 
I agree with the thread, you guys are missing the entire point — Atleast, from what could I interpret about the new formulation is that things like "programmable spells" aren't Information Type 2 by nature but rather it is not Type 2 Information if the information mentioned does not correlate with reality whatsoever..
To say it doesn't correlate with reality is to say the thing it defines isn't a part of reality both aren't mutually exclusive furthermore if one is to take DT's words at face value, if information were to make up some part of a reality but not all of it then it isn't type 2
 
To say it doesn't correlate with reality is to say the thing it defines isn't a part of reality both aren't mutually exclusive furthermore if one is to take DT's words at face value, if information were to make up some part of a reality but not all of it then it isn't type 2
I mean, informations here are informations that participates as a building block of reality — Meaning, they constitute reality as a whole since if they don't then it wouldn't even be fundamental in nature. Similar with how Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 and 3 operates here, you could argue that there are fiction in which data is the building block of reality yet they're information type 2: That's simply because of the information there correlating with data themselves nor if the data is information itself. You still wouldn't get it though if data contains information.
 
Except that's not what it says and it's still you asserting your stance with the example of chemical formula.
NaCl + H²O= NaOH + HCl.
Changing the formula above to NaCl + H²O= H²SO⁴ doesn't affect how sodium chloride would react with water, sulphuric acid will never be the resultant of their mixture, I've only succeeded at writing something incomprehensible. The reverse however will be the case with spell formula if it is altered even without the addition of compounds that would result in the formation of sulphuric acid.
No it isn't. If you think my comparison is poor, you oughtn't use it yourself. The post has no mention of such, and while the metaphor is by my reckoning accurate, has no need to mention it. What I said is an earnest evaluation of the scans. There is no information being manipulated. It's describing doing something differently. Rare is it that one sees something so obviously not present being legitimately defended. Just saying that something is so does not change the core evidence being used for the claim.

EDIT: This'll be my last post on the subject unless something of substance comes forward. I'm not adding something, I'm just reaffirming my judgement. I'll watch the thread but given the trajectory I feel pessimistic about evidence of greater merit being brought forward. So, my vote remains with removal.
 
Isn't that kind of backwards? It wouldn't be a possible use in this case, since it is said to be "formulae" but I do understand what you're saying.
No, it isn't backwards. A possible use of an ability is, by how we use this term on this wiki, something an ability might be able to accomplish for some of its users. It is neither something that all users can do, nor does the ability to do the same thing as a possible use imply having the ability, as the same thing can be accomplished by various different abilities.

This seems to also fall under what you said above. For the verse you outlined, magic formula's are information, in that case, there's no question that something described as "magic formulas" are in fact information the only difference being how they affect reality however, simply defining reality isn't what makes them information. In this case, a spell is still a part of reality, that doesn't change so rather than removing it entirely, I would rather say it should be limited. Consequently, you're also saying if information subsists as a fundamental aspect of a part of reality but not all of it then it isn't information manipulation.
For the verse I outlined, magic is powered by Ether, the same stuff that all matter, energy, space, time, destiny, laws of nature, minds, souls and actions are made from. It isn't information (type 2) because spell formulas are a thing, it is information (type 2) because everything, including all non-magical things, are actually just Ether given a certain shape and complete manipulation of it is described in ways linking it to rewriting reality like a video game. If you have control over Ether, you have control over reality, because that's one and the same thing.

You see the key difference? One is just a pattern in magical power making a spell function, while the other is everything there is on the physical plane of reality.

This wouldn't even get limited, as no information in the Type 2 sense is being manipulated. In no way or form is it actually a fundamental aspect of reality in any scope. It's no more a fundamental aspect than computer code is a limited fundamental aspect of reality for sustaining the function of a computer program.
 
If there were some indication, for one example, that the individuals were capable of changing how a particular formula manifests (for example, making a formula that would normally create one spell create a different spell), then there would at least be some talking point here.
Not exactly trying to argue anything, but that's literally how magic formulas work.
 
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