Sailor Moon, Galaxy Cauldron: Beyond Dimensional Existence

[Iamunanimousinthat]

(Note: Dropping High 1-A+ for now and will be focusing on just BDE for the Galaxy Cauldron)

I got permission to make this staff thread so that the staff can evaluate this CRT for BDE for the Galaxy Cauldron. The original thread is here. As this is a staff thread, non-staff please refrain from commenting unless you receive permission. The user @MeiouHades was given permission to initially respond.

Before we start allow me to define these terms to prevent confusion:​

1. When the word Star is being used in Sailor Moon, it can be used both literally and metaphorically. Literally to mean actual stars in space or metaphorically to mean celestial bodies like a planet, moon, etc. to even people and individuals. Since everything in the verse comes from a Star Seed, you can essentially call everything a "Star'.

2. While the text mentions, 'Galaxy', the scope of the Galaxy Cauldron expands to the entire Cosmology, and not just the galaxy. For example, Pharaoh 90 is a being from an Alternate Universe, yet he still originated in the Galaxy Cauldron which is located in the Main Universe.

3. Star Seeds are the metaphysical aspect in Sailor Moon. The wiki currently indexes them as Type 1 Concepts and Type 2 information. You can read more about them in the accepted thread here.

With that said, let's begin:

The Galaxy Cauldron is the literal heart and center of the entire Sailor Moon Cosmology. It is a structure located at the center of the galaxy which produces Star Seeds and Sailor Crystals which become everything in the verse. Living beings, Celestial objects, Power, Light, Universes, Higher Dimensions and the entire Cosmos itself are all are given form from a Star Seed that comes from the Cauldron.

Beyond Dimensional Existence (Type 2)​

The standard for BDE Type 2 are as follows:

"Through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence.

As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar. However, if they are applied to realms that can be inferred to surpass the very composition of the lower reality (e.g. Realms that are, themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains, or often, voids of nothingness), then 1-A is the most appropriate rating for them."

"A simple example being a realm that is stated to lack space, time and physicality entirely, but is nonetheless shown as being "vaster" than physical reality in some way."

Let's take each of these requirements one by one and show how the Cauldron fits the bill.

1. Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality​

The Cauldron gives birth to Star Seeds. These Star Seeds are concepts which give form to everything in reality. It is directly stated the forms are nothing but "fleeting shadows" compared to the quality of Star Seeds and Sailor Crystals. In that scene Sailor Galaxia mocks Sailor Moon for caring about the physical bodies of her friends when the Sailor Crystals have true power and are indestructible.

Within the Galaxy Cauldron, Star Seeds exist in their most Complete and Perfect state, their true essence unclouded by the imperfections of material form. This is similar to Plato’s allegory of the cave, in which the world we perceive is likened to a shadows on a cave wall and the true forms. Just as the shadows in the cave are dim reflections of the higher reality, the individual incarnations of Star Seeds are incomplete manifestations of their Perfected Archetypes within the Cauldron. The Cauldron functions, in this sense, like Plato’s World of Forms: a Metaphysical origin point where the true nature of all things resides.

Star Seeds are treated and shown as being superior and more fundamental than the physical forms they create. They are the True Essence.

2. being above [the lower reality's] composition and differentiation; Realms that are themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains​

Inside the Cauldron, all things were one. Regardless of whether they were people, spirits, Gods, planets, or incorporeal beings, all things are were one. And when they return to the Cauldron they become apart of it once more. The Cauldron is essentially a purely conceptual realm made of unactualized possibility and potential.

3. Not reachable by lower states of existence​

To enter the Cauldron, one must first be erased from existence. They are erased from all of history: past, present, and future. Then they are dissolved and lost in its oceans.

When Mamoru fell into the Cauldron, he was erased from History and so was his daughter was erased as well. This is not simple chain reaction because of Causality. Earlier in the Arc, Mamoru was already erased from existence by Sailor Galaxia. Neither his daughter or his future self were immediately affected. Sailor Moon Characters have Acausality, and the Cauldron ignores it entirely.

More evidence that the Cauldron is also not adhered to the flow of time is Death Phantom. Death Phantom is a character that was defeated in the future, but he already returned to the Cauldron when Sailor Moon reached it in the past. Essentially speaking, one cannot exist anywhere in reality, the Future, Past or Present and in the Cauldron at the same time. The Cauldron is independent of all time and location of the lower reality. It follows its own set of logic that supersedes the lower reality.

To enter the Cauldron you must be erased and become one with it, achieving and maintaining a Perfected state of existence, a Perfect Form. To leave the Cauldron you must either be reincarnated and given a new history, or be regenerated (High-Godly) into a lower form. The power to do so also coming from the Cauldron.

4. Statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time"​

The Cauldron is the source of all power, living beings and structures in the cosmology.

It created Chronos, the God of Time, whose power facilities the ability to travel through space and time, as well as enforcing the laws of time and space (taboos are violations of time laws) . It created the Black Crystal which bypassed his power and toppled order in the Corridor of Space-Time. It created Queen Nehellenia who gave power to Amazoness Quartet to be able to interrupt and block Chronos's power.

The Cauldron also created the Silver Crystal. The silver crystal passively warps history. The Silver Crystal is stated to transcend space and time twice. I will talk about the context of each time.

A. Before the first time, Sailor Moon was negatively affected and nerfed by time. She could not user her powers in the Future, because she was from the Past. She was facing episodes of existence erasure, because she couldn't be near her future self. However, after a power-up from Neo Queen Serenity, Sailor Moon unlocked power like never before.

After getting help from Neo Queen Serenity, she transcended time and space, she was no longer affected by it. The light of her crystal could encompass all of space and time, reaching the Corridor of Spacetime, which has no concept of distance or direction. She was stated to be unhindered by the layers of time as her power could cross through time effortlessly, completely unaffected by its effects.

B. The Second time Sailor Moon was stated to transcend time and space, she evolved into Eternal Sailor Moon, one of her most powerful forms, second only to Neo Queen Serenity. Her power was so strong and bright it traveled through time and space, that the images of her battle with Nehellenia was able to be seen by the likes of Kakyuu and Sailor Galaxia.

The Cauldron also created the Mercury Crystal. Sailor Mercury was able to utilize Time-Axis calculations generated by Luna's supercomputer to take the cast to a Higher Dimensional World beyond the Space-Time of the normal 3 Dimensional World.

The reason I bring up all these things, is because the very power to create time, and enforce its laws, break its laws, and transcend it entirely, all come from the Cauldron. The Cauldron, by being the source of the entire Cosmos, also created the realms beyond Space and Time and the Dimensions of Space of the Main Universe, as well as the Corridor of Space-Time that has no concept of distance, direction or time.

No form or variation of Time and Space, power over Time and Space, or even transcending Time and Space can exist in Sailor Moon without the Cauldron. To be within and beyond Time and Space are all properties granted by Cauldron. Any conceivable world in Sailor Moon must be originate from the cauldron.

5. A simple example being a realm that is stated to lack space, time and physicality entirely, but is nonetheless shown as being "vaster" than physical reality in some way.​

I have shown that the Cauldron is a conceptual realm where all unactualized possibilities and potential are melded together as one. Despite being at the center of the cosmology, the Cauldron is vaster than all of physical reality.

The Cosmos Seed, the very Source of the Cosmos's existence, exists inside the Cauldron. For more information on why we know the Cosmos Crystal exists in the Cauldron:

Crystals and Seeds sometimes have these beings called Sailor Power Guardians. These beings protect and aid the Crystal and Seed Owners. The Guardians are always with the Seed and Crystal, typically appearing when they are needed. Most of the main cast have Sailor Power Guardians, and Chaos has one too. When Sailor Moon enters the Cauldron, she meets Guardian Cosmos, the 'Sailor Power Guardian' of the Cosmos Seed. Because Guardian Cosmos is inside the Cauldron, that means the Cosmos Seed is also located inside the Cauldron. Guardian Cosmos also acts like a facilitator of the Cauldron, so we know that the Cosmos Seed and the Cauldron are not wholly independent.

This means the Cosmos Seed, the seed for the entire Cosmos, lies inside the Cauldron. This seed would be apart of the Cauldron as everything in the Cauldron is one.

This would also be a good section to talk about the "size" of the cauldron. The physical appearance of the Cauldron, has no bearing on it's actual size. The Cauldron has indefinite size, evidenced by:

1. The Cosmos in Sailor Moon is infinite. It is a Static Cosmos where Time and Space are infinite. There are an infinite number of stars and planets. Each one of these structures, not to mention any beings or things that live on them, would have came from the Cauldron. That means that Cauldron has birthed an infinite amount of Star Seeds.

2. In the Galactic Center (NOT inside the Cauldron) is a Graveyard. Within this graveyard occurs a never ending funeral procession of butterflies. These butterflies are the dying embers of fallen stars. They represent the Star Seeds that have returned to the Cauldron. Because the procession is never-ending, that means there is a never-ending amount of Star Seeds returning to the Cauldron.

This would mean the Cosmos Seed is a single drop in an endless conceptual sea. The entire Cauldron is infinitely vaster than the very concept of the entire Cosmos.

Additional: Issue of Destruction​

In the last thread, staff expressed that if the Cosmos is not destroyed immediately by the destruction of the Cauldron, that would be a major Anti-feat. Opponents have jumped on this based on a single scan here.

However, there are several problems with relying solely on this interpretation.

1. Sailor Moon at that moment has limited knowledge of the Cauldron. She has not yet met Guardian Cosmos and does not know about the Cosmos Seed.
2. After speaking more with Sailor Chibi Chibi about destroying the Cauldron, Sailor Moon goes from seeing it as stopping new stars from being born, to viewing it as "ending everything" and "let fall the scythe of death".
3. "Letting fall the scythe of death is a direct callback to Sailor Saturn dropping her Silent Glaive and destroying the world. Sailor Saturn had to do this in order to defeat Pharaoh 90. Sailor Saturn had to be sealed away inside the Tau Star System by Pluto lest her destruction spread across the world. Just like how Sailor Saturn had to destroy the world to defeat Pharaoh 90, Sailor Chibi Chibi is telling Sailor Moon that she must destroy the cosmos to defeat Chaos.

I also went out to find scans, and found one of the page. The Japanese text reads:

戦いを終わらせるということは全て無くなることなの

Which can be translated as: "To end the fight means to lose everything."

With 無くなる in this context meaning specifically: to disappear or to be lost or to be reduced to zero

Sailor Moon equates destroying the cauldron with everything disappearing.

This is further supported by the fact that the Cosmos Seed is inside the Cauldron. If the Cauldron was to be destroyed, that means it's contents will be destroyed too. That would include the Cosmos Seed and Guardian Cosmos. We know that when the seed is destroyed, the form is destroyed as well, erased from all of history. You cannot destroy the Cauldron without destroying the Cosmos Seed, and you cannot destroy the cosmos seed without destroying the Cosmos. The Cosmos seed is one with the Cauldron. To destroy the Cauldron means to destroy everything.

So in Conclusion:​

• The Galaxy Cauldron is a higher existence than reality, with reality being being a fleeting shadow, and the Cauldron being Perfect and Complete
• The Galaxy Cauldron is a conceptual realm where all things are one within it
• The Galaxy Cauldron is inaccessible to the lower reality. To enter the Cauldron, one must be erased entirely from reality, past, present, and past, and then be given their Perfect Form that is one with it.
• The Cauldron is the Source of all Space and Time, and any variation of it will originate from the Cauldron. All power over Time and Space originates from it, including the power to transcend Space-Time.
• The entire Cosmos is a Shadow of the Cosmos Seed, which is just one conceptual drop inside an endless Cosmic Ocean (The Cauldron)

VOTE Tally​

Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree: Theglassman12, FinePoint, Phoenks

 

[MeiouHades]

Alright, so we're doing this. Since I have been (presumably) allowed to comment here, I'm gonna do the honors. Now, before I delve into any core arguments, I wanna preface this by saying a few things first. This comment of mine is also gonna include a minor by extremely important rant that I actually do request staff (and other members) read because it's important and shows just how pointless, unnecessary and wrong this thread even is.

Let's stary by mentioning the obvious. OP, in the previous thread, states that they'll post the summaries in whatever new thread they'll create, they state this not once but twice. Do you see any summaries in the OP? Anyone? Bueller? Alright, none then. Is it because the arguments are entirely new then? Nope, as I'll show and compare, none of this is new, the same old arguments (verbatim, funny enough) and a few new, unrelated scans, nothing more. So why does this thread exist then? Well, if you read the comment I linked, OP says that one staff member commented that this thread is difficult to read and so they feel like they must create a new one.

Now let's see which staff member they're referring to, this one right here. Now, to everyone reading it, does @Theglassman12's comment even REMOTELY imply that they found the thread difficult to read? Does the comment "this shitshow of a thread" (an accurate assessment, it was a shitshow for over 5+ pages) automatically imply they found it difficult to read? No it doesn't, of course not. So OP misinterpreted (or not) the staff comment and used it as pretext to create a thread that they STATED would have summaries, but it doesn't even have those. If I sound pissed off, it's because I am, even if technically there's no rules preventing one from shutting down their thread whenever they want and just creating a new one, this tactic being CLEARLY used to avoid a topic getting almost rejected is bad faith. Yes this is an accusation, no I will not be retracting it, because it gets WORSE!

You see, the previous thread already had two disagreements. One from @Theglassman12 as the comment above shows, and another from @FinePoint right here. Also while not technically a VSBW Admin (so their vote won't count), even @Phoenks disagreed here, just worth mentioning. Not only that, but OP was told by @Qawsedf234 that even IF they were to create a staff thread, that they previous votes (0-2) would still count and be valid right here, which OP in the very next comment did not contend at the time (I mean, why would you?). Now here's the issue, do you see those votes included in the OP in this staff thread? Anyone? Bueller? Yeah, they're not there. So I will ask OP to KINDLY INCLUDE THOSE VOTES IMMEDIATELY IN THEIR POST. I don't wanna accuse OP again, of vote manipulation, but if they do not include the votes then I will accuse them.

Alright, rant over. I hope you all read it. Now let's address the argument. To make things easier, and to do what OP was supposed to do, I'll link the summaries from the previous thread myself since they're important and relevant here, here and here. Now there are other important messages after this too, and I do recommend you read them but even if you don't, this much will suffice.

2. While the text mentions, 'Galaxy', the scope of the Galaxy Cauldron expands to the entire Cosmology, and not just the galaxy. For example, Pharaoh 90 is a being from an Alternate Universe, yet he still originated in the Galaxy Cauldron which is located in the Main Universe.

Problem number 1 right here. This doesn't prove that the Cauldron encompasses or expands to the entire cosmology or is utterly superior to it. Your own point above debunks you here, you stated that all living beings, and even alternate dimensions (in this case, the Tau Star system) are born of Star seeds which are created in the Cauldron. This doesn't imply it encompasses or surpasses the entire cosmology, just that all living beings (even ones existing in the alternate dimensions that it already creates) must also originate from it. Nor does this disprove the Galaxy Cauldron being, quite literally, the center of the galaxy as its name, the Sagittarius A*, suggests which is a nod to the Supermassive black hole at the center of our own milky way galaxy.

With that said, let's begin:

The Galaxy Cauldron is the literal heart and center of the entire Sailor Moon Cosmology. It is a structure located at the center of the galaxy which produces Star Seeds and Sailor Crystals which become everything in the verse. Living beings, Celestial objects, Power, Light, Universes, Higher Dimensions and the entire Cosmos itself are all are given form from a Star Seed that comes from the Cauldron.

Another problem. Where is it stated that the Cauldron created higher dimensions? Or, in other words, where is the Starseed for these higher dimensions which would imply that the Cauldron created them? I'd like to see a scan or two proving this, you can't just make assumptions willy-nilly. I pointed this out in the previous thread as well, and no, creating the Taioron crystal for the Tau Star system is not the same. We're talking about an alternate time-space vs a LITERAL higher physical (or temporal) dimension, you're gonna need some extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims.

Beyond Dimensional Existence (Type 2)​

The standard for BDE Type 2 are as follows:

"Through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence.

As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar. However, if they are applied to realms that can be inferred to surpass the very composition of the lower reality (e.g. Realms that are, themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains, or often, voids of nothingness), then 1-A is the most appropriate rating for them."

"A simple example being a realm that is stated to lack space, time and physicality entirely, but is nonetheless shown as being "vaster" than physical reality in some way."

Let's take each of these requirements one by one and show how the Cauldron fits the bill.

1. Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality​

The Cauldron gives birth to Star Seeds. These Star Seeds are concepts which give form to everything in reality. It is directly stated the forms are nothing but "fleeting shadows" compared to the quality of Star Seeds and Sailor Crystals. In that scene Sailor Galaxia mocks Sailor Moon for caring about the physical bodies of her friends when the Sailor Crystals have true power and are indestructible.

Yeah, I don't understand how you could possibly misinterpret this and take "Fleeting shadows" to mean literal, ontological superiority over lower reality. Not just that, can I take a moment to critique the scan itself for a bit? Galaxia is stating that the things Sailor Moon trusts in are but fleeting shadows (the Guardians as well as her own ideals) , how do you interpret this to mean that all forms (she didn't use the term here) are fleeting shadows compared to the Crystals? This statement is quite literally just a common, stereotypical antagonistic jab towards a protagonist where their ideals and allies get mocked/looked down upon, this in NO WAY implies what you're saying and even if it DID imply that, it would not be anything close to Ontological superiority.

Within the Galaxy Cauldron, Star Seeds exist in their most Complete and Perfect state, their true essence unclouded by the imperfections of material form. This is similar to Plato’s allegory of the cave, in which the world we perceive is likened to a shadows on a cave wall and the true forms. Just as the shadows in the cave are dim reflections of the higher reality, the individual incarnations of Star Seeds are incomplete manifestations of their Perfected Archetypes within the Cauldron. The Cauldron functions, in this sense, like Plato’s World of Forms: a Metaphysical origin point where the true nature of all things resides.

Now this is gonna be fun. For one, under what basis are you assuming that SM takes on the Platonism school of thought? Two, you're gravely misunderstanding Universals vs Particulars here. If we were to assume that SM falls under Platonism, then you'd need to prove how Crystals are to their forms what the concept of beauty is to a beautiful person (in other words, me) or what the concept of justice is to a just act. Not only that, but even using the allegory of cave, you've done nothing to show what the shadows on the walls are (that is, the lower reality), who the objects casting the shadows are (physical but still lower reality), the real sunlit world beyond the cave (aka the realm of Forms, which is where Ontological superiority comes from), and the sun itself which would be the Form of the Good.

The only scan you used here, which states that Stars here exist in perfect forms, doesn't even come close to the kind of evidence you need to establish the rigorous philosophical framework you need prove Plato's realm of Forms here. Not to mention it doesn't even necessarily refer to Starseeds, just stars in general (which, as you said, can be used in multiple different ways, not just literal) and even the characters' forms themselves as the very scan you used later seems to suggest. You mixed and matched two entirely unrelated scans, leaving out any context behind them, taking them at literal face value to try and prove some Platonic structure underlying SM with the extremely vague statements about "Perfected forms" and "Fleeting shadows" both of which as I demonstrated do not mean what you say they do and certainly do not lend themselves to the conclusion you're deriving. You can talk about until the cows come home but if you don't have evidence, it doesn't matter how much you theorize and speculate.

Star Seeds are treated and shown as being superior and more fundamental than the physical forms they create. They are the True Essence.

Being superior only to the things they create or give forms to, yes, not literally everything unless you show there's a Starseed for it too.

2. being above [the lower reality's] composition and differentiation; Realms that are themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains​

Inside the Cauldron, all things were one. Regardless of whether they were people, spirits, Gods, planets, or incorporeal beings, all things are were one. And when they return to the Cauldron they become apart of it once more. The Cauldron is essentially a purely conceptual realm made of unactualized possibility and potential.

This just means the Cauldron created them, once more this doesn't really strike me as something that is non-composite/indivisible.

3. Not reachable by lower states of existence​

To enter the Cauldron, one must first be erased from existence. They are erased from all of history: past, present, and future. Then they are dissolved and lost in its oceans.

It's the other way around, if you try to enter the Cauldron, you'll be erased across history. That's history EE, not necessarily any evidence of "lower states of existence" being unable to access the Cauldron when you haven't even proven why the Cauldron is a higher state of existence to begin with. You do realize this is possible with realms that aren't higher states of existence, right?

When Mamoru fell into the Cauldron, he was erased from History and so was his daughter was erased as well. This is not simple chain reaction because of Causality. Earlier in the Arc, Mamoru was already erased from existence by Sailor Galaxia. Neither his daughter or his future self were immediately affected. Sailor Moon Characters have Acausality, and the Cauldron ignores it entirely.

Right, which is just Acausality negation. History EE as well. All hat no cattle.

More evidence that the Cauldron is also not adhered to the flow of time is Death Phantom. Death Phantom is a character that was defeated in the future, but he already returned to the Cauldron when Sailor Moon reached it in the past. Essentially speaking, one cannot exist anywhere in reality, the Future, Past or Present and in the Cauldron at the same time. The Cauldron is independent of all time and location of the lower reality. It follows its own set of logic that supersedes the lower reality.

Which is, one again, Acausality. Call me a kangaroo the way I keep hopping through this Deja Vu.

To enter the Cauldron you must be erased and become one with it, achieving and maintaining a Perfected state of existence, a Perfect Form. To leave the Cauldron you must either be reincarnated and given a new history, or be regenerated (High-Godly) into a lower form. The power to do so also coming from the Cauldron.

This is just referring to her complete transformation, how exactly are you equating this to a "perfect state of existence" exactly?

4. Statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time"​

The Cauldron is the source of all power, living beings and structures in the cosmology.

Except for "higher dimensions" apparently

It created Chronos, the God of Time, whose power facilities the ability to travel through space and time, as well as enforcing the laws of time and space (taboos are violations of time laws) . It created the Black Crystal which bypassed his power and toppled order in the Corridor of Space-Time. It created Queen Nehellenia who gave power to Amazoness Quartet to be able to interrupt and block Chronos's power.

So it created living beings, we already heard that previously.

The Cauldron also created the Silver Crystal. The silver crystal passively warps history. The Silver Crystal is stated to transcend space and time twice. I will talk about the context of each time.

Deja Vu city.

A. Before the first time, Sailor Moon was negatively affected and nerfed by time. She could not user her powers in the Future, because she was from the Past. She was facing episodes of existence erasure, because she couldn't be near her future self. However, after a power-up from Neo Queen Serenity, Sailor Moon unlocked power like never before.

After getting help from Neo Queen Serenity, she transcended time and space, she was no longer affected by it. The light of her crystal could encompass all of space and time, reaching the Corridor of Spacetime, which has no concept of distance or direction. She was stated to be unhindered by the layers of time as her power could cross through time effortlessly, completely unaffected by its effects.

None of this proves that the Crystal itself, or the Cauldron, surpass the concept of space, time and/or dimensions in any way, which is what you need. Again, I'm not the only one saying this, it stated on the BDE page as well as by @Qawsedf234 not once but twice, as well as remarking that you HADN'T proven this in your previous OP and I'm showing you how that same problem can be found here, you haven't proven why or how it transcends the concept of space and time.

This thread is hardly any different to the previous one, same arguments with a few unrelated scans to give it the appearance of a new thread. Also that scan above? It doesn't necessarily imply that the Silver Crystal transcends space-time in a literal sense, just that its power does, which ironically enough is an assertion that's supported by YOUR scans showing how it allows Sailor Moon to no longer be nerfed, allows her power to reach into the space-time rift. Surpassing the concept of space-time though? Out of the question here.

B. The Second time Sailor Moon was stated to transcend time and space, she evolved into Eternal Sailor Moon, one of her most powerful forms, second only to Neo Queen Serenity. Her power was so strong and bright it traveled through time and space, that the images of her battle with Nehellenia was able to be seen by the likes of Kakyuu and Sailor Galaxia.

This is even worse. Did you read the statement fully? It says "transcended space and time, and spread across the galaxy....", if this isn't the most hyperbolic, flowery, poetic nonsense I don't know what is. And generally I hate using this because it feels like such a cop-out argument, but that is LITERALLY what this right here is. Two wildly different statements of wildly different implications and scales being lumped together into something that the author believes sounds impressive to manga readers (and it probably does). This is no where close to the kind of statement you need for the Silver Crystal (not just "power" or "starlight") surpassing the concept of space-time. It's nothing more than another vague, impressive-sounding, generic space-time statement with a range statement at best (even that part is probably hyperbolic but I'm not gonna argue that).

The Cauldron also created the Mercury Crystal. Sailor Mercury was able to utilize Time-Axis calculations generated by Luna's supercomputer to take the cast to a Higher Dimensional World beyond the Space-Time of the normal 3 Dimensional World.

Cool, I guess? Just because Ami can 'utilize' an equation generated by a supercomputer to take the cast somewhere doesn't.... mean anything really as far as the Mercury Crystal is concerned. At best you could argue that Ami's big brain is thanks to the Mercury Crystal that itself was created in the Cauldron but good luck convincing anyone with that.

The reason I bring up all these things, is because the very power to create time, and enforce its laws, break its laws, and transcend it entirely, all come from the Cauldron.

Don't see anything about creating time. Giving birth to living beings that can do that stuff doesn't necessarily mean much, but even if I were to concede that, the fact remains that you still haven't addressed the crux of the requirement, that is the conceptual transcendence of space-time either by the Cauldron or any of the crystals.

The Cauldron, by being the source of the entire Cosmos, also created the realms beyond Space and Time and the Dimensions of Space of the Main Universe,

Scans for this?

as well as the Corridor of Space-Time that has no concept of distance, direction or time.

Scans for creating this as well? Also even if you did provide evidence of this part, there's a small elephant in the room for you to address. Having no concept of space or time is not the same as transcending said concept and would only grant you BDE Type 1 at best according to the BDE page right here:

"Type 1: Characters who lack spatiotemporal features entirely, while not actually being superior to them in nature"

So even if you did have evidence for the Cauldron creating it (or at least it having a Starseed of its own which would also prove that), it doesn't matter because this doesn't help your argument. But I don't believe such evidence exists at all and if it does I'd like to see it.

No form or variation of Time and Space, power over Time and Space, or even transcending Time and Space can exist in Sailor Moon without the Cauldron. To be within and beyond Time and Space are all properties granted by Cauldron. Any conceivable world in Sailor Moon must be originate from the cauldron.

This is just a horrendously hyperbolic way of saying that the Cauldron created all Starseeds and Sailor Crystals alike. That's it, that's all you need and that conveys all the meaning in your statement above without making it sound more impressive than it is. Please stop this.

5. A simple example being a realm that is stated to lack space, time and physicality entirely, but is nonetheless shown as being "vaster" than physical reality in some way.​

I have shown that the Cauldron is a conceptual realm where all unactualized possibilities and potential are melded together as one. Despite being at the center of the cosmology, the Cauldron is vaster than all of physical reality.

No, all you've done is "shown" that the Cauldron creates living beings, celestial objects and a few alternate dimensions. Nothing more, nothing that the series didn't already make it obvious for us. Stripping every scan of context and taking everything at face value is not the same as "showing" something nor is you yourself using pointlessly flowery, bombastic language to state simple truisms or platitudes about the series (you could be a good writer for Sailor Moon honestly).

The Cosmos Seed, the very Source of the Cosmos's existence, exists inside the Cauldron. For more information on why we know the Cosmos Crystal exists in the Cauldron:

Crystals and Seeds sometimes have these beings called Sailor Power Guardians. These beings protect and aid the Crystal and Seed Owners. The Guardians are always with the Seed and Crystal, typically appearing when they are needed. Most of the main cast have Sailor Power Guardians, and Chaos has one too. When Sailor Moon enters the Cauldron, she meets Guardian Cosmos, the 'Sailor Power Guardian' of the Cosmos Seed. Because Guardian Cosmos is inside the Cauldron, that means the Cosmos Seed is also located inside the Cauldron. Guardian Cosmos also acts like a facilitator of the Cauldron, so we know that the Cosmos Seed and the Cauldron are not wholly independent.

This doesn't necessarily prove that the Cosmos seed is within the Cauldron at the time as far as I can see. It's a reasonable assumption, I'll grant you that, but there's no explicit or strict implication or statement of it. The appearance of Guardian Cosmos doesn't necessarily indicate that, since you stated that she also acts like a facilitator of the Cauldron, meaning that her presence there should be guaranteed when someone enters the Cauldron, whether the Cosmos Seed is present there or not. They're not mutually inclusive things.

This means the Cosmos Seed, the seed for the entire Cosmos, lies inside the Cauldron. This seed would be apart of the Cauldron as everything in the Cauldron is one.

It would be born out of the Cauldron, sure, but that doesn't prove it is there at the time. Not unless you have a statement from someone indicating that it is right then and there. Like I said, reasonable assumption but I can just as easily counter that with my own assumption which you can only dismiss completely with explicit proof. Heck, the fact that the destruction of the cosmos isn't stated to immediately destroy the universe (but instead, an eventual end is described numerous times) seems to suggest the Cosmos seed might not even be there.

This would also be a good section to talk about the "size" of the cauldron. The physical appearance of the Cauldron, has no bearing on it's actual size. The Cauldron has indefinite size, evidenced by:

1. The Cosmos in Sailor Moon is infinite. It is a Static Cosmos where Time and Space are infinite. There are an infinite number of stars and planets. Each one of these structures, not to mention any beings or things that live on them, would have came from the Cauldron. That means that Cauldron has birthed an infinite amount of Star Seeds.

Oh Lord have mercy on me.... Okay, first off, the static cosmos concept in Sailor Moon comes from Einstein's static universe model (which is actually misinterpreted in the databook cited in your blog, guess SM editors skipped physics classes but I don't address that), we're talking around 1916-1917 when he formulated GR. Now, the cosmological theory you're using to cite "infinite stars" is from.... 1576 by an English Mathematician and Astronomer, Thomas Digges.... that is over 340 years BEFORE the static cosmos model in GR.... do I have to lecture you on physics and astronomy here and tell you how incomprehensibly incompatible these two models are....? Not to mention the latter isn't even referenced anywhere in Sailor Moon (because it's a stupid, outdated model that we have no use for anymore). And even his own addition to Copernicus's work doesn't necessarily have him mentioning infinite number of stars, but rather stars are varying distances in an infinite space. Seriously.... you can't just mix and match whatever unrelated cosmological models and theories you come across just to support your claims with no scans within the verse saying anything close to this. So no, there is no such thing as "infinite stars" here, precisely because neither Einstein's static cosmos supports this notion, nor does Sailor Moon itself given that the Cauldron CREATES more stars and the ones that die return to it in the form of the Starseed.

Also, another problem for you. Even if all of what you've said is true, that there are an infinite number of stars in the cosmos and that Cauldron has birthed an infinite number of them (and holds and infinite number of dead ones too), that doesn't make the Cauldron itself physically infinite in size. You've stated it yourself, the Cauldron is a non-physical realm and the Starseeds within it and also non-physical in nature. If they don't occupy a physical space (not my claim), how can you claim that it's infinite in size? Or rather, what meaning does stating that it created infinite stars even have? It doesn't change the fact that it is literally a galactic center and called one various times as well.

2. In the Galactic Center (NOT inside the Cauldron) is a Graveyard. Within this graveyard occurs a never ending funeral procession of butterflies. These butterflies are the dying embers of fallen stars. They represent the Star Seeds that have returned to the Cauldron. Because the procession is never-ending, that means there is a never-ending amount of Star Seeds returning to the Cauldron.

Never ending is not equivalent to infinite. That's like saying that there is a never ending or endless number of stars in the universe, which would be true even without there being an infinite number of stars. Currently, we estimate that once every ~2 years a star completes its lifecycle in the milky way alone, now multiply that by a trillion galaxies (especially ones that have a higher number of red/blue giants and even stars that don't belong to any galaxies) and you will get a "never ending funeral procession" still without anything infinite. So if you want to prove that there are infinite stars, you need explicit in verse proof because even the databook cited by you only mentions the universe being spatially and temporally infinite (again, a misunderstanding of the static cosmos model but whatever), nothing about infinite stars anywhere.

This would mean the Cosmos Seed is a single drop in an endless conceptual sea. The entire Cauldron is infinitely vaster than the very concept of the entire Cosmos.

No because you've stated countless times that neither the Cauldron and especially the Starseeds inside the Cauldron are non-physical. There's no "vastness" here in the sense that it utterly surpasses and exceeds Ontologically all dimensions and lower forms of reality or anything about it completely transcending the concept of space and time as well. Also let's say this was true, that the Cauldron really was "infinitely vaster than the concept of the cosmos" (whatever this even means lmfao), that is still not the same as conceptual transcendence of space and time or ontological superiority over lower reality. Being "infinitely vaster" (which isn't true anyway as I showed) is a complete non-statement here.

Additional: Issue of Destruction​

In the last thread, staff expressed that if the Cosmos is not destroyed immediately by the destruction of the Cauldron, that would be a major Anti-feat. Opponents have jumped on this based on a single scan here.

No, not just a single scan, but 3 scans that outright contradicted immediate cosmological cessation.

However, there are several problems with relying solely on this interpretation.

1. Sailor Moon at that moment has limited knowledge of the Cauldron. She has not yet met Guardian Cosmos and does not know about the Cosmos Seed.

Right, but Sailor Cosmos DOES know about it and she still doesn't either contradict Sailor Moon or tell her anything close to "Hey if you do this, the universe goes poof immediately", she's telling her everything but this little fact (if it is true which it isn't). Tell me, is this not an absolute crucial piece of information? It is. Is this a situation where a character cannot say this? It's not, she is already telling her the consequences of this action. So no, you can't counter it with this. Usagi may not know it, but someone who does is present there.

1. After speaking more with Sailor Chibi Chibi about destroying the Cauldron, Sailor Moon goes from seeing it as stopping new stars from being born, to viewing it as "ending everything" and "let fall the scythe of death".
   

None of this implies immediate cosmological cessation. It's true that eventually they will all die and everything will end if the Cauldron is destroyed, no one contests that, what isn't true is that this statement should mean immediate cosmological destruction. Here's a fun little experiment for you. Take all of these statements, make another CRT or Q/A thread and use these to argue that this'll be a Low 2-C feat or cause Low 2-C/universal+ destruction. Go ahead, do it. See where it gets you. Spoiler alert: it'll be rejected immediately, for good reason. So if this statement isn't suitable for a CRT for cosmological destruction on its own, it isn't suitable here either.

1. "Letting fall the scythe of death is a direct callback to Sailor Saturn dropping her Silent Glaive and destroying the world. Sailor Saturn had to do this in order to defeat Pharaoh 90. Sailor Saturn had to be sealed away inside the Tau Star System by Pluto lest her destruction spread across the world. Just like how Sailor Saturn had to destroy the world to defeat Pharaoh 90, Sailor Chibi Chibi is telling Sailor Moon that she must destroy the cosmos to defeat Chaos.

Generic world busting statement. Again, no actual evidence of immediate cosmological destruction. Also here's the same problem, let's assume the Cosmos seed is within the Cauldron like you said. If cosmological destruction were to happen (which it isn't), it'd be because of the destruction of the Cosmos seed, NOT the Cauldron. You don't seem to understand this for some reason so I'll say it again, you must prove that the Cauldron's destruction is what causes the cosmology to end, not the destruction of an object that it created. These are two separate mechanisms, only one helps you here.

I also went out to find scans, and found one of the page. The Japanese text reads:

戦いを終わらせるということは全て無くなることなの

Which can be translated as: "To end the fight means to lose everything."

Same as above. Ending everything, losing everything, end of the world, destruction of the world. None of these statements would qualify for 3-A/Low 2-C destruction on their own, so they shouldn't be accepted as evidence here either.

With 無くなる in this context meaning specifically: to disappear or to be lost or to be reduced to zero

The third interpretation seems rather unlikely here, since the first two seem more likely, that everything will be lost, which it will, but neither that nor the latter interpretation directly prove immediate cosmological destruction. It's simple dude, all you need is something saying "If you do this, the universe is gonna end/go poof/be destroyed immediately". How hard is that? Heck, screw the immediate part at this point, even just the destruction of the universe would be extremely helpful.

Sailor Moon equates destroying the cauldron with everything disappearing.

Means nothing as far as the required evidence goes. Again, try making a CRT or Q/A to get this accepted as Low 2-C destruction and see if it works. If it doesn't there (and yeah, it won't) then it shouldn't here either.

This is further supported by the fact that the Cosmos Seed is inside the Cauldron.

Not stated.

If the Cauldron was to be destroyed, that means it's contents will be destroyed too. That would include the Cosmos Seed and Guardian Cosmos. We know that when the seed is destroyed, the form is destroyed as well, erased from all of history.

So the destruction of the Cosmos is what might destroy the cosmology, but unfortunately even that isn't stated since none of the scans related to it even cite the destruction of the universe as a possible cause. By the way, is there any statement of the Cosmos seed being the actual Starseed of the actual universe? It being merely called a "Cosmos seed" wouldn't necessarily mean that if this is all the evidence for it, that'd be a nominal fallacy as far as I know. I am genuinely asking here, since I don't recall such a statement but maybe you do so please post it.

You cannot destroy the Cauldron without destroying the Cosmos Seed,

You can if it isn't present there currently.

and you cannot destroy the cosmos seed without destroying the Cosmos. The Cosmos seed is one with the Cauldron. To destroy the Cauldron means to destroy everything.

Then please give me a statement that implies anything close to this. Anything close to the immediate cessation of the universe or the cosmology upon the destruction of the Cauldron.

So in Conclusion:​

• The Galaxy Cauldron is a higher existence than reality, with reality being being a fleeting shadow, and the Cauldron being Perfect and Complete

Disproven directly.

• The Galaxy Cauldron is a conceptual realm where all things are one within it

I really don't get what a "conceptual realm" is even supposed to mean but the "all things are one" part just means it created them all, that's all.

• The Galaxy Cauldron is inaccessible to the lower reality. To enter the Cauldron, one must be erased entirely from reality, past, present, and past, and then be given their Perfect Form that is one with it.

That's just existence erasure (History EE) and negation of Acausality, nothing about being "inaccessible to lower reality", nor is there any "lower reality" here. Perfect form here just refers to them achieving their complete forms here, it is not at all the same as the "higher reality/realm of Forms" in Platonism that you tried to equate it with.

• The Cauldron is the Source of all Space and Time, and any variation of it will originate from the Cauldron. All power over Time and Space originates from it, including the power to transcend Space-Time.

This is literally a copy-paste from above lmfao. Seriously, this just means the Cauldron created living beings, celestial bodies and some alternate dimensions, nothing more. Bombastic, hyperbolic statement to make something that is just a basic concept in the verse and easily explained by a one-liner sound more impressive and fundamental than it actually is. I don't understand why you keep doing this. Also there's no statement of the Cauldron being the source of all space and time and all variations thereof (whatever that means).

• The entire Cosmos is a Shadow of the Cosmos Seed, which is just one conceptual drop inside an endless Cosmic Ocean (The Cauldron)

Yeah, no. Please don't insert Galaxia's statement here, that was an entirely different statement with a WILDLY DIFFERENT context. A common antagonistic statement calling her ideals and friends mere shadows, this does not at all mean that the entire cosmos is a "shadow of the cosmos seed". I hate when you manipulate context like this.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Okay thanks. This is a lot, so I will ask others not to comment yet until I am able to go through it and write the rebuttal.

 

[MeiouHades]

Just thought I'd type this here, I recently had a heart attack episode and have been recovering (primary causes: chronic + acute stress and a routine lack of proper sleep), so I won't be responding as quickly as I did in the previous thread. A few others will be taking charge in that case, but I still am the main opposition.

 

[Phoenks]

Just commenting to say I am not counted as a vsbw staff disagreement so you can remove me from the tally up there with the others.

I still disagree though, and MeiouHades gives a good summary on why. W user for having the attention span for this.

Good luck to y'all I'll be watching in the corner.

 

[FinePoint]

I just responded to like twenty five requests and I'm very tired, and really don't feel like re-explaining all of my reasoning here.

If anybody wants to re-summarize my points for me, I'd greatly appreciate it, and you have my permission to post to do so if you're not staff.

Otherwise, just know that I do disagree, and my original arguments can be found here.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I just responded to like twenty five requests and I'm very tired, and really don't feel like re-explaining all of my reasoning here.

If anybody wants to re-summarize my points for me, I'd greatly appreciate it, and you have my permission to post to do so if you're not staff.

Otherwise, just know that I do disagree, and my original arguments can be found here.

Sorry but I don’t accept this. If you want to disagree based on your previous point fine. If you’re too tired to respond fine. But I won’t accept or argue against someone arguing on your behalf. That’s incredibly unfair and pointless.

Especially opening this thread to nonstaff defeats the purpose.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Just thought I'd type this here, I recently had a heart attack episode and have been recovering (primary causes: chronic + acute stress and a routine lack of proper sleep), so I won't be responding as quickly as I did in the previous thread. A few others will be taking charge in that case, but I still am the main opposition.

I first want to say that I wish you the best of health and hope you recover quickly and smoothly!

Being superior only to the things they create or give forms to, yes, not literally everything unless you show there's a Starseed for it too.

Unfortunately, you have completely destroyed your own argument and proven me correct.

Here you clear as day agree that star seeds are superior to everything they give form to. And your only argument against this is that star seeds don't give form to everything in the verse. However this argument doesn't stand.

1. It is already accepted that Star Seeds give form to everything on this wiki. But I will just reiterate for everyone here.

This is where everything exists and everything passes away.
Everything in the heavens grows from a star seed.
Everything with life grows from a stars.
Everything is born there.
All things originate here as one.

To claim that "everything" is not explained or expanded upon would be extremely dishonest.

Here is another scan, "This is the final destination where fragments of dead planets and stars come to rest after drifting across the cosmos." This area is in Sagittarius Alpha Star, where the Cauldron is located. Couple that with the other statements, there is no other interpretation. Either provide actual evidence that there exists another cauldron or something that is stated to not come from the cauldron.

So yes, by your own admission and logic, the Cauldron is superior to the literally.

Now before I want to go on I want to quickly address this:

None of this proves that the Crystal itself, or the Cauldron, surpass the concept of space, time and/or dimensions in any way, which is what you need. Again, I'm not the only one saying this, it stated on the BDE page as well as by @Qawsedf234 not once but twice, as well as remarking that you HADN'T proven this in your previous OP and I'm showing you how that same problem can be found here, you haven't proven why or how it transcends the concept of space and time.

?????????

Did you even read his statement?

“Of these, all I only really see is the second justification. If it transcends time and space, along with lacking elements, you'd get BDE Type 2. But the sole usage of the word "transcends" comes from Silver Crystals transcending space-time on some level, but at the same time those tears come from the Cauldron, so it probably counts."

Qawsedf234 clearly is leaning towards agreement that the Cauldron transcends spacetime.

They also say this::

"If the cauldron is removed and the universes cease to exist when that happens, I think a higher tier is warranted. If the cauldron being destroyed doesn't result in the universe collapsing instantly, but it decays until a new one is formed that blows a hole through one of the main supporting items of the suggested tier."

They believe a higher tier is warranted. Their main contention is about the destruction of the universe. Which I will address now:

Generic world busting statement. Again, no actual evidence of immediate cosmological destruction. Also here's the same problem, let's assume the Cosmos seed is within the Cauldron like you said. If cosmological destruction were to happen (which it isn't), it'd be because of the destruction of the Cosmos seed, NOT the Cauldron. You don't seem to understand this for some reason so I'll say it again, you must prove that the Cauldron's destruction is what causes the cosmology to end, not the destruction of an object that it created. These are two separate mechanisms, only one helps you here.

The Cosmos Seed is inside the Cauldron because it's Guardian is inside the cauldron. The Guardians protect the seed.

You also keep ignoring this. Everything inside the cauldron is one with it. The Cosmos Seed is one with the Cauldron. You cannot destroy the Cauldron without destroying the Cosmos seed.

Unless you have actual evidence that directly contradicts direct objective story statements then you have to concede this argument.

Also you literally contradict your self again:

The third interpretation seems rather unlikely here, since the first two seem more likely, that everything will be lost, which it will, but neither that nor the latter interpretation directly prove immediate cosmological destruction. It's simple dude, all you need is something saying "If you do this, the universe is gonna end/go poof/be destroyed immediately". How hard is that? Heck, screw the immediate part at this point, even just the destruction of the universe would be extremely helpful.

Your entire argument relies on feigning ignorance and to pretend that "everything" isn't the scope of the entire universe/cosmos. I have shown six separate scans that clearly showcase that when it comes to the star seeds and cauldron, everything means everything.

Sailor Moon equates destroying the cauldron with everything disappearing.

Means nothing as far as the required evidence goes. Again, try making a CRT or Q/A to get this accepted as Low 2-C destruction and see if it works. If it doesn't there (and yeah, it won't) then it shouldn't here either.

Thank you!

You have literally just contradicted yourself and proved that you were not arguing in good faith. You clearly say right here that "Ending Everything" is Low 2-C (aka UNIVERSE) feat which is already accepted as destruction feat on this site. You clearly see recognize that everything is being used in a universal scope. So why are you pretending it's not in your other arguments?

I feel like these points are enough to prove that you're position is unsupported by the source material and your contentions do not hold weight to any logic and that you yourself have contradicted your entire argument. But I will address everything else under the spoilers button below.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Spoiler: Big Wall of Text

Problem number 1 right here. This doesn't prove that the Cauldron encompasses or expands to the entire cosmology or is utterly superior to it. Your own point above debunks you here, you stated that all living beings, and even alternate dimensions (in this case, the Tau Star system) are born of Star seeds which are created in the Cauldron. This doesn't imply it encompasses or surpasses the entire cosmology, just that all living beings (even ones existing in the alternate dimensions that it already creates) must also originate from it. Nor does this disprove the Galaxy Cauldron being, quite literally, the center of the galaxy as its name, the Sagittarius A*, suggests which is a nod to the Supermassive black hole at the center of our own milky way galaxy.

Objectively false.

I already proved why this is an empty argument and a waste of time above. Either provide evidence and scans for your conjecture or concede this baseless argument.

Another problem. Where is it stated that the Cauldron created higher dimensions? Or, in other words, where is the Starseed for these higher dimensions which would imply that the Cauldron created them? I'd like to see a scan or two proving this, you can't just make assumptions willy-nilly. I pointed this out in the previous thread as well, and no, creating the Taioron crystal for the Tau Star system is not the same. We're talking about an alternate time-space vs a LITERAL higher physical (or temporal) dimension, you're gonna need some extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims.

The higher dimensions are apart of the universe and the Cosmos. The Cosmos comes from the Cosmos Seed. The Cauldron created the Cosmos seed.

No assumptions have been made, this is basic and elementary follow of the story’s own logic. The author does not have to hand hold the reader and directly stated what has already been shown to be true via the actual story.

Yeah, I don't understand how you could possibly misinterpret this and take "Fleeting shadows" to mean literal, ontological superiority over lower reality. Not just that, can I take a moment to critique the scan itself for a bit? Galaxia is stating that the things Sailor Moon trusts in are but fleeting shadows (the Guardians as well as her own ideals) , how do you interpret this to mean that all forms (she didn't use the term here) are fleeting shadows compared to the Crystals? This statement is quite literally just a common, stereotypical antagonistic jab towards a protagonist where their ideals and allies get mocked/looked down upon, this in NO WAY implies what you're saying and even if it DID imply that, it would not be anything close to Ontological superiority.

The story literally calls their physical bodies fleeting shadows while their star seed forms as perfect. Are you stating the perfect version is similar or inferior to its imperfect version?

Also if its a common stereotypical jab, please give me two examples of other media where the physical body is called a fleeting shadows in comparison to the perfect metaphysical aspect? Back up your claims.

It is very clear that this is damning evidence so you need to simply wave it away without providing any evidence that it’s a meaningless statement.

Now this is gonna be fun. For one, under what basis are you assuming that SM takes on the Platonism school of thought? Two, you're gravely misunderstanding Universals vs Particulars here. If we were to assume that SM falls under Platonism, then you'd need to prove how Crystals are to their forms what the concept of beauty is to a beautiful person (in other words, me) or what the concept of justice is to a just act. Not only that, but even using the allegory of cave, you've done nothing to show what the shadows on the walls are (that is, the lower reality), who the objects casting the shadows are (physical but still lower reality), the real sunlit world beyond the cave (aka the realm of Forms, which is where Ontological superiority comes from), and the sun itself which would be the Form of the Good.

The only scan you used here, which states that Stars here exist in perfect forms, doesn't even come close to the kind of evidence you need to establish the rigorous philosophical framework you need prove Plato's realm of Forms here. Not to mention it doesn't even necessarily refer to Starseeds, just stars in general (which, as you said, can be used in multiple different ways, not just literal) and even the characters' forms themselves as the very scan you used later seems to suggest. You mixed and matched two entirely unrelated scans, leaving out any context behind them, taking them at literal face value to try and prove some Platonic structure underlying SM with the extremely vague statements about "Perfected forms" and "Fleeting shadows" both of which as I demonstrated do not mean what you say they do and certainly do not lend themselves to the conclusion you're deriving. You can talk about until the cows come home but if you don't have evidence, it doesn't matter how much you theorize and speculate.

Again, another argument that requires you to simply handwave away things without actually addressing anything.

I am not arguing that Sailor Moon adhere’s to Plato structure. I am drawing comparison between the allegory of the cave and how star seeds work in Sailor Moon.

The body is fleeting shadows while the star seeds are perfect and complete is not in anyway vague. The story is clearly expressing that star seeds have a higher quality than the physical forms. The story also calls their bodies illusions.

Also you completely contradict this argument right here:

Being superior only to the things they create or give forms to, yes, not literally everything unless you show there's a Starseed for it too.

So you agree, the star seeds are superior to the things they give form to. The star seeds are created by the Cauldron. The Cauldron is superior to the Cosmos which it created via the Cosmos Seed which gives the Cosmos its form.

This just means the Cauldron created them, once more this doesn't really strike me as something that is non-composite/indivisible.

Again, you provide zero arguments and just wave away things.

The story says everything is one inside the cauldron. This is the definition of non-composite. The story has shown clear times to show the cauldron is like an ocean that everything dissolves back too.

If the cauldron was composite then things would be separate inside it, a direct opposite of what the story directly states.

It's the other way around, if you try to enter the Cauldron, you'll be erased across history. That's history EE, not necessarily any evidence of "lower states of existence" being unable to access the Cauldron when you haven't even proven why the Cauldron is a higher state of existence to begin with. You do realize this is possible with realms that aren't higher states of existence, right?

Address the entire argument.

The Cauldron erases beings from history, dissolves them, and then gives them a new perfect form that can only exist inside the cauldron.

No matter how powerful a being gets, no matter how big, they will never achieve that perfect superior form unless they are homogenized by the Cauldron. This clearly shows that this a matter of quality not quantity.

None of this proves that the Crystal itself, or the Cauldron, surpass the concept of space, time and/or dimensions in any way, which is what you need. Again, I'm not the only one saying this, it stated on the BDE page as well as by @Qawsedf234 not once but twice, as well as remarking that you HADN'T proven this in your previous OP and I'm showing you how that same problem can be found here, you haven't proven why or how it transcends the concept of space and time.

Addressed above

The statement reads:

“Of these, all I only really see is the second justification. If it transcends time and space, along with lacking elements, you'd get BDE Type 2. But the sole usage of the word "transcends" comes from Silver Crystals transcending space-time on some level, but at the same time those tears come from the Cauldron, so it probably counts.”

This doesn't necessarily prove that the Cosmos seed is within the Cauldron at the time as far as I can see. It's a reasonable assumption, I'll grant you that, but there's no explicit or strict implication or statement of it. The appearance of Guardian Cosmos doesn't necessarily indicate that, since you stated that she also acts like a facilitator of the Cauldron, meaning that her presence there should be guaranteed when someone enters the Cauldron, whether the Cosmos Seed is present there or not. They're not mutually inclusive things.

“Sure all evidence points that the cosmos seed has to be inside the cauldron but no character faced the camera and said, ‘The Cosmos Seed is in the Cauldron’ so it doesn’t count.”

Again, you have no argument here. You just hand wave things away.

Right, but Sailor Cosmos DOES know about it and she still doesn't either contradict Sailor Moon or tell her anything close to "Hey if you do this, the universe goes poof immediately", she's telling her everything but this little fact (if it is true which it isn't). Tell me, is this not an absolute crucial piece of information? It is. Is this a situation where a character cannot say this? It's not, she is already telling her the consequences of this action. So no, you can't counter it with this. Usagi may not know it, but someone who does is present there.

Chibichibi wants Sailor Moon to destroy the cauldron. Correcting her and going, “actually Sailor Moon, destroying the cauldron will destroy everything immediately” would be stupid on her part.

Also, why would the author break apart the emotional climax of the ENTIRE serious to info dump something that’s already heavily implied and out right said by Sailor Moon a few lines later????

If cosmological destruction were to happen (which it isn't), it'd be because of the destruction of the Cosmos seed, NOT the Cauldron.

This is a moot point. The Cosmos Seed is one with the Cauldron, as the story has repeatedly said. I already explained this above.

Oh Lord have mercy on me.... Okay, first off, the static cosmos concept in Sailor Moon comes from Einstein's static universe model (which is actually misinterpreted in the databook cited in your blog, guess SM editors skipped physics classes but I don't address that), we're talking around 1916-1917 when he formulated GR. Now, the cosmological theory you're using to cite "infinite stars" is from.... 1576 by an English Mathematician and Astronomer, Thomas Digges.... that is over 340 years BEFORE the static cosmos model in GR.... do I have to lecture you on physics and astronomy here and tell you how incomprehensibly incompatible these two models are....? Not to mention the latter isn't even referenced anywhere in Sailor Moon (because it's a stupid, outdated model that we have no use for anymore). And even his own addition to Copernicus's work doesn't necessarily have him mentioning infinite number of stars, but rather stars are varying distances in an infinite space. Seriously.... you can't just mix and match whatever unrelated cosmological models and theories you come across just to support your claims with no scans within the verse saying anything close to this. So no, there is no such thing as "infinite stars" here, precisely because neither Einstein's static cosmos supports this notion, nor does Sailor Moon itself given that the Cauldron CREATES more stars and the ones that die return to it in the form of the Starseed.

Also, another problem for you. Even if all of what you've said is true, that there are an infinite number of stars in the cosmos and that Cauldron has birthed an infinite number of them (and holds and infinite number of dead ones too), that doesn't make the Cauldron itself physically infinite in size. You've stated it yourself, the Cauldron is a non-physical realm and the Starseeds within it and also non-physical in nature. If they don't occupy a physical space (not my claim), how can you claim that it's infinite in size? Or rather, what meaning does stating that it created infinite stars even have? It doesn't change the fact that it is literally a galactic center and called one various times as well.
Never ending is not equivalent to infinite. That's like saying that there is a never ending or endless number of stars in the universe, which would be true even without there being an infinite number of stars. Currently, we estimate that once every ~2 years a star completes its lifecycle in the milky way alone, now multiply that by a trillion galaxies (especially ones that have a higher number of red/blue giants and even stars that don't belong to any galaxies) and you will get a "never ending funeral procession" still without anything infinite. So if you want to prove that there are infinite stars, you need explicit in verse proof because even the databook cited by you only mentions the universe being spatially and temporally infinite (again, a misunderstanding of the static cosmos model but whatever), nothing about infinite stars anywhere.

Ignoring this section because the Cosmos being infinite is already accepted and this is a waste of time and will be derailing.

The point is that the Cauldron has no definite size and contains and infinite amount of star seeds and a never ending amount of star seeds return to it.

No because you've stated countless times that neither the Cauldron and especially the Starseeds inside the Cauldron are non-physical. There's no "vastness" here in the sense that it utterly surpasses and exceeds Ontologically all dimensions and lower forms of reality or anything about it completely transcending the concept of space and time as well. Also let's say this was true, that the Cauldron really was "infinitely vaster than the concept of the cosmos" (whatever this even means lmfao), that is still not the same as conceptual transcendence of space and time or ontological superiority over lower reality. Being "infinitely vaster" (which isn't true anyway as I showed) is a complete non-statement here.

I think you need to go back and read the actual requirements of the page:

A simple example being a realm that is stated to lack space, time and physicality entirely, but is nonetheless shown as being "vaster" than physical reality in some way.​

"shown as being "vaster" than physical reality in some way. Emphasis on the "in some way". The some way is that the cosmos seed, the source of the entire cosmos is one drop in a cauldron which contains an infinite never-ending amount of star seeds.

Are you saying the Cauldron is not vaster than the Cosmos Seed?

No, not just a single scan, but 3 scans that outright contradicted immediate cosmological cessation.

Post the scans or keep it pushing. Is there are reason why you keep making claims with no evidence?

Right, but Sailor Cosmos DOES know about it and she still doesn't either contradict Sailor Moon or tell her anything close to "Hey if you do this, the universe goes poof immediately", she's telling her everything but this little fact (if it is true which it isn't). Tell me, is this not an absolute crucial piece of information? It is. Is this a situation where a character cannot say this? It's not, she is already telling her the consequences of this action. So no, you can't counter it with this. Usagi may not know it, but someone who does is present there.

Already addressed.

"Sailor Cosmos didn't correct moon" isn't an argument. It's non-sequitor. Especially when Sailor Moon literally arives to the correct conclusion two pages later.

Same as above. Ending everything, losing everything, end of the world, destruction of the world. None of these statements would qualify for 3-A/Low 2-C destruction on their own, so they shouldn't be accepted as evidence here either.

Debunked above. You know very well everything in context means everything.

The third interpretation seems rather unlikely here, since the first two seem more likely, that everything will be lost, which it will, but neither that nor the latter interpretation directly prove immediate cosmological destruction. It's simple dude, all you need is something saying "If you do this, the universe is gonna end/go poof/be destroyed immediately". How hard is that? Heck, screw the immediate part at this point, even just the destruction of the universe would be extremely helpful.

Debunked above.

Means nothing as far as the required evidence goes. Again, try making a CRT or Q/A to get this accepted as Low 2-C destruction and see if it works. If it doesn't there (and yeah, it won't) then it shouldn't here either.

Addressed above

Not stated.

THat's because its' shown. This is a visual media.

So the destruction of the Cosmos is what might destroy the cosmology, but unfortunately even that isn't stated since none of the scans related to it even cite the destruction of the universe as a possible cause. By the way, is there any statement of the Cosmos seed being the actual Starseed of the actual universe? It being merely called a "Cosmos seed" wouldn't necessarily mean that if this is all the evidence for it, that'd be a nominal fallacy as far as I know. I am genuinely asking here, since I don't recall such a statement but maybe you do so please post it.

You debunked your own self here, and explained the top.

You can if it isn't present there currently.

It is so a moot point.

I really don't get what a "conceptual realm" is even supposed to mean but the "all things are one" part just means it created them all, that's all.

Read the actual requirements. It requires the realm to the conceptual.
Also you're just plain wrong. You can create things and have them be separate from you.
All things are one does not in anyway in the English or any language is synonymous with "created them all"

It being merely called a "Cosmos seed" wouldn't necessarily mean that if this is all the evidence for it, that'd be a nominal fallacy as far as I know. I am genuinely asking here, since I don't recall such a statement but maybe you do so please post it.

Using a fallacy as an argument is a fallacy. I'm not going to play this game where we feign ignorance and demand that the series have a statement that sates that Cosmos Seed is the seed of the Cosmos.

You are obviously grasping at straws.

Yeah, no. Please don't insert Galaxia's statement here, that was an entirely different statement with a WILDLY DIFFERENT context. A common antagonistic statement calling her ideals and friends mere shadows, this does not at all mean that the entire cosmos is a "shadow of the cosmos seed". I hate when you manipulate context like this.

Again, Please actually provide me two examples of other antagonists using "fleeting shadows" as statement since it's so common?

This argument just summarizes your entire argument, which is to feign ignorance to the point where you contradict your own self. Acting like the statement of fleeting shadows, doesn't tie back to the very nature of star seeds is just extremely dishonest.

The series literally shows that within the cauldron the beings are all one and are prefect. They have repeatedly stated that the the physical bodies fade and are inferior to the star seeds. You yourself have admitted star seeds are superior. So I'm not going to accept this pedantic and nonsequitor form or argument. It's literally wasting everyone's time and is just plain old dishonest.

Acting like this isn't a clear reference to Plato's allegory of the cave (AND NO, I am not saying Sailor Moon adhere's to Platonism 1:1) is just really irritating to me. The allegory is such a common reference in literature, and the entire concept of star seeds and the cauldron share so many similarities.

It's arguments like this is is what drains the fun of vsbattling, why should people have to literally prove basic reading comprehension. Things do not need to be spelled out like its kindergarten.

And the thing is, this is already accepted. Star Seeds are already considered platonic concepts on here. So what are you even arguing against here?

Anyways. I wish you the best. Please get better.

 

[FinePoint]

Sorry but I don’t accept this. If you want to disagree based on your previous point fine. If you’re too tired to respond fine. But I won’t accept or argue against someone arguing on your behalf. That’s incredibly unfair and pointless.

Especially opening this thread to nonstaff defeats the purpose.

You already argued with me on the other thread.

I'm merely asking someone to re-summarize (or even just link to them all really) what I've already said previously for others to easily see, not to argue further on my behalf, nor am I opening the thread to non-staff beyond that simple clerical task.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

You already argued with me on the other thread.

I'm merely asking someone to re-summarize (or even just link to them all really) what I've already said previously for others to easily see, not to argue further on my behalf, nor am I opening the thread to non-staff beyond that simple clerical task.

Re-summarizing allows for people to editorialize. i will link your responses at your request.

 

[FinePoint]

Re-summarizing allows for people to editorialize. i will link your responses at your request.

Well of course I would read it myself and determine if anything was misrepresented, but if you could do that I would appreciate that too.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Well of course I would read it myself and determine if anything was misrepresented, but if you could do that I would appreciate that too.

Okay, I am working on it now!

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

A link to all of Fine Point’s post in the last thread:

Post in thread 'The Galaxy Cauldron: High 1A+ Upgrade'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-galaxy-cauldron-high-1a-upgrade.181002/post-7164121

Post in thread 'The Galaxy Cauldron: High 1A+ Upgrade'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-galaxy-cauldron-high-1a-upgrade.181002/post-7164220

Post in thread 'The Galaxy Cauldron: High 1A+ Upgrade'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-galaxy-cauldron-high-1a-upgrade.181002/post-7164230

Post in thread 'The Galaxy Cauldron: High 1A+ Upgrade'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-galaxy-cauldron-high-1a-upgrade.181002/post-7164238


Everyone can find my responses in between for further context but most of what I mentioned is in the OP. And this was my last response to his last.

 

[Antvasima]

@Celestial_Pegasus @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou

Are any of you willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[SailorRanger64]

Hello, I was given permission to reply here even though I'm not a staff member, I'll do my best to simplify this as best as I can. And to clarify, this is just an explanation clarifying the general hierarchy of the pieces at play, and not forming any new rebuttal or argument.

Spoiler: Sailor Moon Hierarchy Summary

The Galaxy Cauldron is the birthplace of the entire cosmology in the manga, as it creates star seeds, which are the fundamental blueprints that make up everything in the cosmos. Inside the cauldron exists the Cosmos Seed, which means the concept of existence comes from this star seed, and from that all concepts would spawn from existence, this includes time, space, universes, dimensions, etc. This would also include the Corridor of Space-Time, which encompasses all of space-time.

A Sailor Crystal encompasses everything that makes a sailor guardian who they are, by that logic then the Cosmos Seed would encompass everything that makes up existence and the Galaxy Cauldron encompasses all star seeds in general. Destroying a Star seed, eliminates everything it gives form/existence to and everything that derives from it. A Star seed can give form to anything/bring it into being and all things have one. A Star seed can exist even if the form it shapes is erased, but the reverse cannot happen.

We know that universes/space-times can have star seeds thanks to the Tau Star System and the Thyoron Crystal as it is the star seed, and the power source, of the Tau Star System. We also know that The Future is a separate higher dimension beyond the present, as stated by Umino saying the people sending messages have a Higher Dimensional Existence.

The Main Universe, Parallel Sailor Moon, Jadedite’s Dimension, The Future, The End of Space-Time, Tau Star System, Mirror Worlds, Elysium, Shadow of the New Moon, all of these are other Universes/Space-Times with some being a Higher Dimensional Existence as shown with The Future. And then think about the Tau Star System having a star seed, this means that these universes come from the Galaxy Cauldron as it created the concept of universes.

So in conclusion, I agree with OP and his stance on the Galaxy Cauldron being BDE Type 2 as it created the very concept and transcends dimensions.
Galaxy Cauldron > Star Seeds > Corridor of Space-Time > Layers of Space and Time/Higher Dimensions > Universes/Space-Times

 

[MeiouHades]

Unfortunately, you have completely destroyed your own argument and proven me correct.

Here you clear as day agree that star seeds are superior to everything they give form to. And your only argument against this is that star seeds don't give form to everything in the verse. However this argument doesn't stand.

Nope, you've misunderstood completely. For one I don't actually agree that Starseeds are these fundamental, utterly superior objects, I really don't and you'll see why very, very soon. My "agreement" there is stating what you've stated in the argument, but that's not the point of it. The point here is that the Starseeds are NOT literally superior to any and everything (given that they can be used and handled by practically anyone) and two, the main reason, that there is NOT a Starseed for literally EVERYTHING in the verse. Like what? Glad ya asked. There's no Starseed for space-time, there's no Starseed for higher spatial or temporal dimensions, there's no Starseed for the Space-Time Corridor, and there's no Starseed for the universe either (and no, I'm now 100% that the Cosmos seed is not it, you won't be convincing me or anyone with it).

So yeah, Starseeds do not "give form" to everything in the verse, certainly not the things I mentioned. Why am I being so "pedantic" here? Because you're gonna need extraordinary evidence if you wanna make extraordinary claims and get extraordinary ratings. So yes, please provide evidence for the existence of Starseeds for any of those, that's the only way you can claim that Starseeds govern said objects' concepts. We DO NOT and WILL NOT just assume that it does on the site, no staff will accept this ever.

And by the way, there is no evidence or statement suggesting that the Cosmos seed gave form or birth to the whole universe. Your only "evidence" of it just that it's called....Cosmos. But that's a nominal fallacy, like I said, and doesn't hold when you consider that the term "cosmos" is used in many ways in the verse. For one, there is a cosmos crystal in the verse that Sailor Cosmos has. There's also the fact that the verse refers to "Cosmos" as the opposite of "Chaos" as in the Old Greek. This is the only thing we know of the Cosmos seed, the only time it was namedropped. There's nothing about it "giving form" to the universe. At best, it's an assumption based purely on its name (a nominal fallacy), at worst it's a dishonest claim when there's nothing stated there as far as the creation of the universe goes. Heck, the Cosmos Crystal seems to have more power and range as it covered the entire universe when Lambda power was activated. Clearly, if the scale can be namedropped in this instance, why not the former?

1. It is already accepted that Star Seeds give form to everything on this wiki. But I will just reiterate for everyone here.

Nope, only things that it has shown or stated to have given form to.

This is where everything exists and everything passes away.
Everything in the heavens grows from a star seed.
Everything with life grows from a stars.
Everything is born there.
All things originate here as one.

To claim that "everything" is not explained or expanded upon would be extremely dishonest.

No because it literally ISN'T expanded upon or explained. A vague "everything" just isn't enough, "everything with life" certainly doesn't match what I said above either, nor does "everything in Heavens". You are proposing and arguing for something very specific, ergo, you NEED equally specific evidence for it. It's not "dishonest" it's holding you and the verse as a whole to a standard that everyone must follow.

Here is another scan, "This is the final destination where fragments of dead planets and stars come to rest after drifting across the cosmos." This area is in Sagittarius Alpha Star, where the Cauldron is located. Couple that with the other statements, there is no other interpretation. Either provide actual evidence that there exists another cauldron or something that is stated to not come from the cauldron.

So dead stars (assuming this can mean people and other living beings as well) and planets come to rest here, what exactly is this statement supposed to prove to me? I'm sorry, am I actually missing something here? They come here to reincarnate, sure, and what? What is this supposed to help with? No, I'm not the one who needs to provide evidence for the Starseeds not creating something, YOU need to provide statements and evidence for Starseeds creating things that your argument RELIES upon it creating (the universe, space-time, the corridor, spatial or temporal dimensions, etc). Your argument relies upon them having a Starseed, because that would directly imply that the Cauldron created them, so it is YOUR job to substantiate the very foundation of your arguments, not mine to "disprove" it, you can't prove a negative. You make a positive claim, you prove it.

I wanna make this absolutely clear for everyone who reads this, the entire crux of OP's argument relies upon the existence of Starseeds for things such as space-time, dimensions (spatial and temporal ones, not alternate dimensions), the space-time corridor and such, which would then allow them to claim that the Cauldron created the Starseeds. However, OP hasn't provided a shred of evidence for there being a Starseed for any of these things, not because they can't, but because such evidence doesn't exist. Instead the OP cites vague, "create everything" or "create everything with life" statements as "proof" to me and then ask me to prove that it excludes those. This is neither a reasonable argument nor how things are handled here, in the face of very specific ratings or claims, we require specific evidence as well. A good example being how the site demands a literal namedrop for the creation of "All logical possibilities" if you wish to achieve a High 1-A+ rating (which ironically is why OP dropped that argument in this thread, since they don't have such a statement) and this is no different.

Oh and a new Cauldron? You got it. Here's it's stated that even if this galaxy is destroyed (now whether that's through immediate destruction of the Cauldron, or eventual decay, isn't relevant, the important point here is the destruction of the Cauldron as well), that a new Cauldron is sure to spring into existence somewhere else. Yes these two scans are in order for those that may be confused.

So these statements do two things exactly. One, they utterly disprove any notion of immediate universal or cosmological collapse (after all, even if THIS galaxy is destroyed, a new Cauldron will spring up somewhere else, most likely in another galaxy given the context), two they also put into question this claim of the Cauldron being this absolutely fundamental existence that literally creates everything including the universe, or space-time or even spatial or temporal dimensions or even realms like the Space-Time Corridor. Every time the Cauldron or its destruction is brought up, the context is always the galaxy, not the whole cosmology, not once.

So yes, by your own admission and logic, the Cauldron is superior to the literally.

Not by my admission, no. I don't even think it extends beyond the galaxy.

Now before I want to go on I want to quickly address this:


?????????

Did you even read his statement?

“Of these, all I only really see is the second justification. If it transcends time and space, along with lacking elements, you'd get BDE Type 2. But the sole usage of the word "transcends" comes from Silver Crystals transcending space-time on some level, but at the same time those tears come from the Cauldron, so it probably counts."

Qawsedf234 clearly is leaning towards agreement that the Cauldron transcends spacetime.

Seriously? You're citing his VERY FIRST comment he made when he literally admitted that this is he hadn't read all of the thread here (because you left key information out in that OP, that's on you not Qawsedf) and quickly corrected it? Not only did he only agree with just ONE justification (that too before reading everything), he even later on says that going through the thread, I'm not entirely sure if the OP proved that point yet. And yeah the "point" he's referring to is exactly the one he initially claimed to have agreed on but backtracked later precisely because I showed him more evidence and he realized, as he went through the thread, that you hadn't proven that yet.

They also say this::

"If the cauldron is removed and the universes cease to exist when that happens, I think a higher tier is warranted. If the cauldron being destroyed doesn't result in the universe collapsing instantly, but it decays until a new one is formed that blows a hole through one of the main supporting items of the suggested tier."

They believe a higher tier is warranted. Their main contention is about the destruction of the universe. Which I will address now:

Please read what they say before and after this, this is literally the most textbook form of cherrypicking.

If the cauldron is removed and the universes cease to exist when that happens, I think a higher tier is warranted. If the cauldron being destroyed doesn't result in the universe collapsing instantly, but it decays until a new one is formed that blows a hole through one of the main supporting items of the suggested tier.

So he didn't agree for two reasons:
1.) Because he didn't believe that you had actually proven the conceptual transcendence point
2.) Because he wasn't entirely convinced that the destruction of the Cauldron would bring about direct and immediate collapse of the universe or the entire cosmology.

Also worth mentioning that he uses the same statement I did and still have been, that "generic above space-time" statements don't really qualify.

The Cosmos Seed is inside the Cauldron because it's Guardian is inside the cauldron. The Guardians protect the seed.

Sure, okay. What does the Cosmos seed do?

You also keep ignoring this. Everything inside the cauldron is one with it. The Cosmos Seed is one with the Cauldron. You cannot destroy the Cauldron without destroying the Cosmos seed.

Unless you have actual evidence that directly contradicts direct objective story statements then you have to concede this argument.

Oh no, now I'm actually going to double down on this and claim that there's NO EVIDENCE that the destruction of the Cosmos seed would destroy the universe either, be it in the Cauldron or not, let alone the Cauldron's destruction. Given that there's literally nothing that we know of about the Cosmos seed, that's a reasonable claim that you cannot feasibly counter because evidence for that doesn't exist in the manga. I'll say it again, the Cosmos seed doesn't "give form" to the universe, it's just the exact opposite of the Chaos seed in the same way Cosmos and Chaos are polar opposites in Old Greek, and you don't have the evidence to counter me.

Also you literally contradict your self again:



Your entire argument relies on feigning ignorance and to pretend that "everything" isn't the scope of the entire universe/cosmos. I have shown six separate scans that clearly showcase that when it comes to the star seeds and cauldron, everything means everything.

Your "evidence" for this statement being on the scope of universe/cosmos is.... a panel that literally mentions "galaxy" not once but TWICE? And no, your Starseed scans were completely redundant and didn't prove what you think they did. Just like how I said you need to show that there exists a Starseed for stuff you're claiming, because generic "everything" statements aren't gonna cut it. More evidence for the scope being just a galaxy and not the entire universe or cosmos:

Here is Sailor Cosmos telling Sailor Moon that she must destroy them (Chaos and the Cauldron) for the galaxy's future
Obviously, this doesn't at all indicate immediate universal or cosmological destruction or anything on that scale even.

Here's Sailor Moon once again stating that if she erases the Cauldron, then one day the galaxy won't really have a future
Note that in the Japanese version, the text can mean both "one day" or "some day" but the idea is the same, not only is the scope not an entire universe or cosmos, it doesn't even suggest the immediate destruction of the galaxy. In fact, the new Cauldron statement that I cited above seems to confirm that this'll just lead to the slow destruction of the galaxy until a new Galaxy Cauldron pops up somewhere else.

So once again, there's no universal or cosmological destruction happening here, forget destruction, that's not even the scope that is talked about whenever the destruction of the Cauldron is brought up.

Thank you!

You have literally just contradicted yourself and proved that you were not arguing in good faith. You clearly say right here that "Ending Everything" is Low 2-C (aka UNIVERSE) feat which is already accepted as destruction feat on this site.

I'm sorry.... what? Where did I "clearly" say this??? Who are you referring to??? What part of "Same as above. Ending everything, losing everything, end of the world, destruction of the world. None of these statements would qualify for 3-A/Low 2-C destruction on their own, so they shouldn't be accepted as evidence here either." suggests that I agree with "Ending Everything" being a Low 2-C destruction statement? Where are you getting all this from?? Or what part of "Means nothing as far as the required evidence goes. Again, try making a CRT or Q/A to get this accepted as Low 2-C destruction and see if it works. If it doesn't there (and yeah, it won't) then it shouldn't here either." tells you that I am clearly agreeing with this nonsensical idea??? Are you putting words in my mouth?

You clearly see recognize that everything is being used in a universal scope. So why are you pretending it's not in your other arguments?

Because I don't recognize it I can't even begin to speculate what you saw in that little statement disagreement and interpreted it as me agreeing with it.

Objectively false.

I already proved why this is an empty argument and a waste of time above. Either provide evidence and scans for your conjecture or concede this baseless argument.

You haven't proven anything.

The higher dimensions are apart of the universe and the Cosmos. The Cosmos comes from the Cosmos Seed. The Cauldron created the Cosmos seed.

No assumptions have been made, this is basic and elementary follow of the story’s own logic. The author does not have to hand hold the reader and directly stated what has already been shown to be true via the actual story.

That is an assumption. There is no mention of the universe containing higher dimensions as far as I know, the only thing in your cosmology blog about this is the "future" which you claim has a higher spatio-temporal axis, but in the universe section itself, there's nothing about it besides it just being a static cosmos (a flawed concept on its own but whatever).

Another assumption would be that the Starseed actually created its space-time or any of the higher dimensions (since this is basically you indirectly admitting there's no Starseed for those things) because, once again as I've already said above, there's no evidence for the Cosmos seed "giving form" to the universe, it's based entirely off of its name which as I said is a nominal fallacy. It isn't even stated to have the scale or scope of a universe at least, I would even accept such a statement even if it isn't about creation or giving form, but since there is NOTHING about the Cosmos seed possessing scope beyond the galaxy (or really, just the Cauldron), yeah I will count this as another assumption.

Two out of those three claims above are textbook assumptions with zero scans proving any of those.

The story literally calls their physical bodies fleeting shadows while their star seed forms as perfect. Are you stating the perfect version is similar or inferior to its imperfect version?

Also if its a common stereotypical jab, please give me two examples of other media where the physical body is called a fleeting shadows in comparison to the perfect metaphysical aspect? Back up your claims.

It is very clear that this is damning evidence so you need to simply wave it away without providing any evidence that it’s a meaningless statement.

Why would I need to provide "two examples of other media" when I can just give full context of Galaxia's statement instead of cherrypicking just one scan? Here goes.

This is a bit of Galaxia's back story

Now the next scan is very important, it comes right after this one. Specifically, what Sailor Moon says here is important, because these are the things she trusts in, the things she believes in. It goes: A Sailor Guardian's power should be used to keep peace and justice in the galaxy! And to serve out friends and loved ones!!

Now this is the next scan, the important dialogue here is Galaxia's own beliefs, it goes: The only thing we can truly believe in is our own power.

And the final scan which is where this statement comes from: You know as well as I do the things you trust in are nothing more than fleeting shadows. And yet you still insist that you believe?

Now let's break down what's happening here, time for a bit of literary analysis. This is a common power-hungry villain archetype who rose to a position of authority or power, but seek to acquire even more. Their literal ideal, as shown in scan number three, is to believe in nothing else but her own power. She's literally high on her own strength. She then questions Sailor Moon who, according to scan number two, believes and trusts in her own ideals of maintaining peace and justice in the galaxy using that very power that Galaxia seeks, and to use it to serve their friends and loved ones.

These are the ideals, that Usagi believes and trusts in, that Galaxia calls "fleeting shadows" and questions why she still insists on believing them. The term "fleeting shadows" here is literally just a euphemism here to question Usagi's ideals and call them meaningless (because to someone who only seeks power, they will be meaningless). Anyone with basic media literacy and the ability to discern poetic language from literal statements (including you, yes) will be able to tell that this is stereotypical banter between a power-hungry villain and an idealistic protagonist. How in the world did you manage to interpret this as a reference or direct nod to Plato's allegory of cave is beyond me frankly. The only mention of physical bodies here is when she states how acquiring the Sailor Crystals would mean that she can easily revive their flesh, it DOES NOT mean that their flesh or anything else that Starseeds give form to are "fleeting shadows" in some manner of Plato's Realm of Forms.

Again, another argument that requires you to simply handwave away things without actually addressing anything.

I am not arguing that Sailor Moon adhere’s to Plato structure. I am drawing comparison between the allegory of the cave and how star seeds work in Sailor Moon.

Well you can't do that because that's not what this is, and even if that's true, that you were just drawing a simple comparison, you are CLEARLY attempting to use that to draw a parallel here and use that to argue that the Cauldron is something like Plato's Form of the Good, this is exactly why later on in this paragraph you claim that Starseeds are Platonic concepts.

The body is fleeting shadows while the star seeds are perfect and complete is not in anyway vague. The story is clearly expressing that star seeds have a higher quality than the physical forms. The story also calls their bodies illusions.

No, the fleeting body point I've already analyzed and debunked, it's just you misinterpreting common villain and protag banter and taking it hyper-literally. Calling them illusions means nothing.

So you agree, the star seeds are superior to the things they give form to. The star seeds are created by the Cauldron. The Cauldron is superior to the Cosmos which it created via the Cosmos Seed which gives the Cosmos its form.

No I don't agree with any of that, and like I said before, I will double down and say that there's no evidence for the Cosmos seed creating the universe, if there was, please give it to me. Any evidence that isn't a literal nominal fallacy would be appreciated. Anything even implying that the Cosmos seed has universal range or scope would also work for me (not even asking for creation or "giving it form" at this point) just like how the Cosmos Crystal above was stated to have universal scope.

Again, you provide zero arguments and just wave away things.

The story says everything is one inside the cauldron. This is the definition of non-composite. The story has shown clear times to show the cauldron is like an ocean that everything dissolves back too.

If the cauldron was composite then things would be separate inside it, a direct opposite of what the story directly states.

I'm sorry what? How exactly is a simple "they become one" any evidence of a non-composite realm??? You do realize this could also just be referring to the fact that every Star also returns to the Cauldron to reincarnate right??

Address the entire argument.

The Cauldron erases beings from history, dissolves them, and then gives them a new perfect form that can only exist inside the cauldron.

Actually I disagree with myself now, a little bit. I no longer believe this is History EE either, the Cauldron just destroyed the Starseed which causes the person to be erased across time (and consequently, any actions of their actions seem to get reverted too seeing how Kamen's erasure in the Cauldron also erased his daughter), this is just the Cauldron being able to destroy the Starseed and negating their Acausality. That's what's going on here.

Also, perfect form? Yeah, no. It's literally just called their Completed Star form here, and Guardian Cosmos outright says that form isn't easy to maintain here in the Cauldron, doesn't exactly lend itself to something that can "only exist in the Cauldron", not to mention the following panels outright contradict this as I'll show.

No matter how powerful a being gets, no matter how big, they will never achieve that perfect superior form unless they are homogenized by the Cauldron. This clearly shows that this a matter of quality not quantity.

I don't know what "homogenized by the Cauldron" means here, but the claim that they cannot keep their Complete Star forms intact is outright contradicted in this scan and then also in this scan as well. Guardian Cosmos literally asks them if they'd like to leave the Cauldron with their current (Complete) Star form intact, with the second scan outright showing them visually in that form as they leave the Cauldron.

Addressed above

The statement reads:

“Of these, all I only really see is the second justification. If it transcends time and space, along with lacking elements, you'd get BDE Type 2. But the sole usage of the word "transcends" comes from Silver Crystals transcending space-time on some level, but at the same time those tears come from the Cauldron, so it probably counts.”

This again? Please read what he says right after when he has actually read the full argument:

but if they're conceptually above it, then it would count. Though going through the thread, I'm not entirely sure if the OP proved that point yet.

“Sure all evidence points that the cosmos seed has to be inside the cauldron but no character faced the camera and said, ‘The Cosmos Seed is in the Cauldron’ so it doesn’t count.”

Again, you have no argument here. You just hand wave things away.

No, you're just avoiding presenting any evidence, just like how you've provided NO EVIDENCE whatsoever of the Cosmos seed giving form to the universe or creating it. I'll go one step further and say that the statement about a new Cauldron springing into existence directly contradicts this, since the destruction of the Cauldron (and presumably, the Cosmos seed as well) have no consequences on a universal or cosmological scale, certainly no immediate destruction as far as I saw, and are only limited to the galaxy itself as the three scans I sent above showed.

Chibichibi wants Sailor Moon to destroy the cauldron. Correcting her and going, “actually Sailor Moon, destroying the cauldron will destroy everything immediately” would be stupid on her part.

Why would it be? She's literally standing there telling her the consequences of destroying the Cauldron, even Usagi at that point knows that at least the galaxy is definitely gonna die eventually if the Cauldron is destroyed, why would she NOT include this as a major consequence of her action when this is exactly the sort of place to do it? Again, you're making a claim that one of the most reliable characters in the series does not make even once and are arguing some weird form of character-induced stupidity on their part. Why? Is Chibi-Chibi suddenly no longer reliable? Why are you making claims for her or telling me what would or wouldn't be stupid coming from her? If, according to you, even Usagi knows that destroying the Cauldron would bring an end to everything, why would Chibi-Chibi not also confirm this since Usagi seems to know this anyway?

This argument of "well that'd be stupid" is the most hand-wavy logic I've ever seen, so let me be clear. If something isn't stated by a character, we will not assume it'll happen, nor will we speculate beyond what is reasonable especially when other scans go directly against said speculation. It's your faulty interpretation that's causing the friction here, that's why you're having to jump through hoops here to justify something that can easily be interpreted the correct way instead.

Also, why would the author break apart the emotional climax of the ENTIRE serious to info dump something that’s already heavily implied and out right said by Sailor Moon a few lines later????

Because it's NOT heavily implied not outright stated by anyone (least of all Sailor Moon), and why would the author do it? This is a weird argument, now you're asking me to speculate for the author (when you previously told me not to make such arguments) but I'll do it. The destruction of the entire universe, perhaps something akin to the destruction of all of space-time (including the future, which would actually add to the scale of the Cauldron and) would NOT break apart the emotional climax of the series but rather it would've greatly amplified it. Think about it, the erasure of the entire universe, all of space-time, including the future, also achieves Sailor Cosmos' wish of destroying her own world because nothing worth saving is left in it since Chaos was unleashed there. It would've been the PERFECT way to exacerbate the emotional climax as well as to really hammer in how fundamental the Cauldron is and how much significance this action really holds. Why didn't the author do it? Go and ask her yourself. I'm glad you asked this actually, because this is one of my own greatest personal criticism of Sailor Moon's ending, I think this would've made the story 10X better, it's a pet theory of mine that I've had for a while.

This is a moot point. The Cosmos Seed is one with the Cauldron, as the story has repeatedly said. I already explained this above.

Well unfortunately neither the destruction of the Cauldron nor of the Cosmos seed would destroy the universe.

Ignoring this section because the Cosmos being infinite is already accepted and this is a waste of time and will be derailing.

Oh no, no no no. I'm not letting you get away with this. Please explain to me, and to all of us, why you linked and tried to mix and match two VASTLY different cosmological models from two VASTLY different eras of astrophysics (some 340 years apart as I said) and even THAT doesn't mention anything about an infinite number of stars which is what you used it for. You are now literally ignoring a piece of your own argument above and ignoring the fact that I questioned it. I'm not questioning whether the universe is spatially infinite, I'm questioning the claim about it having an infinite number of stars, because not only is it stated nowhere, you used something that doesn't even state it to prove this.

The point is that the Cauldron has no definite size and contains and infinite amount of star seeds

Feel free to provide a statement for the infinite Star seeds

and a never ending amount of star seeds return to it.

Means nothing without context. And considering that those butterflies are souls, which would include not just people but all the living, it can be "never ending" without being infinite considering how many living things die on earth alone, let alone the rest of the galaxy and beyond.

I think you need to go back and read the actual requirements of the page:

A simple example being a realm that is stated to lack space, time and physicality entirely, but is nonetheless shown as being "vaster" than physical reality in some way.​

"shown as being "vaster" than physical reality in some way. Emphasis on the "in some way". The some way is that the cosmos seed, the source of the entire cosmos is one drop in a cauldron which contains an infinite never-ending amount of star seeds.

Unfortunately it is never stated that the Cosmos seed is the source of the universe nor is there one stating that it gave form to or created it. Again, a nominal fallacy, nothing more. Nor is there any evidence for it containing an infinite number of star seeds, no statement.

Are you saying the Cauldron is not vaster than the Cosmos Seed?

Doesn't really matter if it is or isn't.

Post the scans or keep it pushing. Is there are reason why you keep making claims with no evidence?

I did, I posted three scans above in this argument that literally use the term galaxy when referring to the destruction of the Cauldron, and one scan that even says a new one will pop up when THIS galaxy is destroyed as well. All of them in reference to the destruction of the Cauldron. You don't have a SINGLE statement as blatant as these 3 scans implying that destroying the Cauldron would destroy the universe immediately nor have you a SINGLE statement implying that the destruction of the Cosmos seed would destroy the universe, or that the Cosmos seed itself created or gave form to the universe, nor literally ANYTHING that implies that the Cosmos seed's scope or scale extends to the universe at least. Seriously, who's the one making claims with no evidence here? I ask for a single statement from you, even gave you options and said that I'll accept anything even directly hinting at universal scope, doesn't even have to be destruction or immediate destruction, just like how I provided 3 statements directly mentioning the galaxy, and you can't even provide that nor are you willing to concede this point and admit that there's no such statement and implication here.

Already addressed.

"Sailor Cosmos didn't correct moon" isn't an argument. It's non-sequitor. Especially when Sailor Moon literally arives to the correct conclusion two pages later.

It is especially when a statement like this would've narratively made sense when she's already yapping so much about what'll happen and why she must go through with it, and would've made the scene far better objectively speaking as I detailed above. And no, Usagi doesn't "arrive" at anything. Like I said before, no one on this site would accept "ending everything" as a direct Low 2-C destruction statement, to get something like this accepted you'd be asked for something directly stating that the universe would be destroyed, with a namedrop, and that's exactly the standard I'm gonna hold you to. You're asking me to bend standards for you and I'm not gonna do that ever.

Debunked above. You know very well everything in context means everything.

No, I said it means nothing without context, the context previously has been galaxy, not universe.

You debunked your own self here, and explained the top.

No, I've doubled down and completely disagree with the Cosmos seed giving form to or creating the universe at all, so obviously its destruction wouldn't mean a hill of beans here and that's proven in the scans I sent, the scope is just a galaxy at best, and then a new Cauldron will just pop up somewhere else in another galaxy. Your only evidence for it creating the universe is a textbook case of a nominal fallacy

Read the actual requirements. It requires the realm to the conceptual.
Also you're just plain wrong. You can create things and have them be separate from you.
All things are one does not in anyway in the English or any language is synonymous with "created them all"

Okay, so what concepts does it completely transcend? Any statements for it? Anything indicating complete transcendence of the concepts of space and time or dimensions? And no, I still do not believe that "all things become one here" is strong evidence for a non-composite realm, especially when we know that all living things also return to the Cauldron as well. Also this scan here suggests that the Chaos Crystal (and Chaos herself) has become "too small to be found", that isn't really indicative of a "non-composite realm" where everything literally becomes one and/or is indivisible.

Using a fallacy as an argument is a fallacy. I'm not going to play this game where we feign ignorance and demand that the series have a statement that sates that Cosmos Seed is the seed of the Cosmos.

It's not an argument, my argument is that Cosmos seed doesn't give form to the universe to begin with, and I can claim that easily and it's your job to refute and the ONLY WAY you can do that is by invoking a nominal fallacy since no actual statement exists. That's what's going on here.

You are obviously grasping at straws.

Not even close, in fact this was a comment sentiment that the mods who disagreed with your previous CRT had about it, and since this "new" thread is hardly any different, that criticism is much more appropriately applicable to you as well as this thread than anything else.

Like, seriously, tell me. How exactly do you see one lousy statement about "fleeting shadows" and immediately go "OMG ITS PLATO!!!!!!!" not even bothering to think about other interpretations or anything else???? Is that not the most textbook example of grasping at non-existent straws??? Please save it.

Again, Please actually provide me two examples of other antagonists using "fleeting shadows" as statement since it's so common?

Don't need to, I broke down the entire scene for you and showed you how it can be much more reliably interpreted, something you should've done yourself but you seem to be too fond of grasping at straws

This argument just summarizes your entire argument, which is to feign ignorance to the point where you contradict your own self.

This is coming after you're asking me to show you how an antagonist calling a protagonists beliefs "fleeting shadows" is a common villain trope in anime and fiction as a whole? Who's really feigning ignorance here? Who's the one going "OMG ITS PLATO" over a random villain-hero dialogue that means something completely different when provided the full context??

Acting like the statement of fleeting shadows, doesn't tie back to the very nature of star seeds is just extremely dishonest.

Because it does not, acting like it does with literally nothing but a misinterpreted piece of dialogue, now that is dishonest.

The series literally shows that within the cauldron the beings are all one and are prefect. They have repeatedly stated that the the physical bodies fade and are inferior to the star seeds. You yourself have admitted star seeds are superior. So I'm not going to accept this pedantic and nonsequitor form or argument. It's literally wasting everyone's time and is just plain old dishonest.

No one's contesting that their physical bodies are inferior or would fade, or that the Starseed isn't superior to their bodies, no this does not mean what you're saying it does nor can or should it be extrapolated that way. You can claim pedantic or non-sequiturs all you like, I'm gonna keep asking for evidence, extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claim, I don't care whether you "accept" it or not.

Acting like this isn't a clear reference to Plato's allegory of the cave (AND NO, I am not saying Sailor Moon adhere's to Platonism 1:1) is just really irritating to me. The allegory is such a common reference in literature, and the entire concept of star seeds and the cauldron share so many similarities.

Oh sweet Jesus.... this again...? Please tell me, and everyone, every single soul reading this thread and every single soul that will read this thread, how in ANY shape or form, is a simple "fleeting shadow" statement, from a power hungry antagonist who is CLEARLY mocking the ideals of the protagonist (while having stated her own ideals before AND having her the ideals of the protagonist even before that), a reference or a nod to Plato's allegory of cave.... Are you seriously making this argument??? And would you mind showing me more references to Plato's allegory of cave in Sailor Moon, since you claim its a common reference in literature (funny how you've suddenly invoked your media literacy here but couldn't do it when analyzing this scene) it should be easy to find consistent references to it in Sailor Moon right? Anything?

This is literally nothing more than you seeing the word "shadow" and going "PLATONISM!!!" with me telling you that this isn't what it is, and you getting upset over the fact that I won't buy your nonsensical interpretation. I wish I could show this thread to Ultima, and see the look on his face for myself.

It's arguments like this is is what drains the fun of vsbattling, why should people have to literally prove basic reading comprehension. Things do not need to be spelled out like its kindergarten.

I don't care. I'm not here for fun, I'm here to be accurate. And if your brand of "fun" is baselessly wanking something and taking insanely flawed interpretations based on unrelated namedrops (while simultaneously ignoring when you DO need namedrops) then I will proudly drain the fun as much as I can for everyone for as long as I am here, because "fun" here isn't just pointlessly wanking a series that you like, the real fun involves interpreting evidence critically, using deductive reasoning to see how said evidence matches the tiering system, and then applying it. What you're doing here, and what you did with your previous thread, was literally molding and twisting whatever evidence you could find to support a very specific conclusion that you already had in mind. That's not fun to me or to anyone else.

Being asked to provide evidence doesn't drain fun, and if it does for you, maybe you need to reevaluate your definition of fun.

And the thing is, this is already accepted. Star Seeds are already considered platonic concepts on here. So what are you even arguing against here?

Read this thread and tell me exactly where you or anyone else argued for Star seeds being Platonic concepts. Go ahead. Let me tell you this, and please pay attention, not all Type 1 Concepts are Platonic, okay? There are MANY concepts that will be Type 1 but not Platonic. Many Independent Universal concepts can be non-Platonic. In fact, this can even be case-by-case where the verse itself establishes a unique class of concepts that are equalized under our system, that also classify as Type 1 in the verse by their showings. So no, they're not Platonic concepts, no one including you argued for it and it does not automatically get this.

Verse Equalizing Star Seeds

Note: I was asked to remake this thread so the staff can read it with more ease. Historically on this site, Star Seeds from Sailor Moon were verse equalized to Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 and Information Manipulation Type 2. Recently a mod disagreed with that verse equalization on the basis...

vsbattles.com

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

There's no Starseed for space-time, there's no Starseed for higher spatial or temporal dimensions, there's no Starseed for the Space-Time Corridor, and there's no Starseed for the universe either (and no, I'm now 100% that the Cosmos seed is not it, you won't be convincing me or anyone with it).

You clearly stated that star seeds are superior to the things they give form too.

So now you’re backtracking and grasping at straws.

Individual universes and realms have star seeds as we have already proven. And the Cosmos itself has a seed. Space and time, and all its dimensions fall under that umbrella.

I don’t need to provide a scan that says the Cosmos seed is the seed of the cosmos. That’s obvious to anyone who reeds and isn’t acting in bad faith.

The words everything in the scans I provided were all used in universal all encompassing scope.

Your entire arguement is to just feigning ignorance and coming up with nonsequitors and pretending the words on the page aren’t real.

I am not going back and forth with you.

(Also ps Type 1 concepts are based off of platonic concepts)

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

You don't have a SINGLE statement as blatant as these 3 scans implying that destroying the Cauldron would destroy the universe immediately nor have you a SINGLE statement implying that the destruction of the Cosmos seed would destroy the universe, or that the Cosmos seed itself created or gave form to the universe, nor literally ANYTHING that implies that the Cosmos seed's scope or scale extends to the universe at least.

Like you are literally lying. This is bold face lie.

Destroying the seed destroys the form. This basic lore and is already accepted on the wiki. I have shown this multiple times.

This is such a dishonest conversation. We know exactly what the cosmos is and exactly what seeds are. The story doesn’t need to explain it like its talking to four year olds.

 

[Vietthai96]

Anyway, i'm busy and on phone so i can't post scans (commenting on phone is suck). Here is my permission to comment on this thread

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Anyway, i'm busy and on phone so i can't post scans (commenting on phone is suck). Here is my permission to comment on this thread

@Celestial_Pegasus @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou

Are any of you willing to help evaluate this please?

Ant, apologies, but isn't giving three more people permission to comment on this thread excessive? I can't argue against four people. This thread is going to get crowded again.

 

[Vietthai96]

Individual universes and realms have star seeds as we have already proven. And the Cosmos itself has a seed. Space and time, and all its dimensions fall under that umbrella

Hasty generalization fallacy, just because Thyoron Crystal made up an alternate dimension doesn't mean every starseed does, Thyoron Crystal is just one example, which by all mean, could well be its specific power, an exception.

But anyway this isn't really important, cause the only thing we know is other than the main universe, there only the supposely Tau Star System being another, and please don't tell me about Corridor of Space-Time, it is a pieces of thing that went on explained other than the ability to time travel, nowhere in the verse stated that it is also come from Galaxy Cauldron or made from an unknown starseed, iirc it was completely outside of the space-time which also outside of the reach of the galaxy cauldron, Sailor Moon and her friend can physically flies to the Galatic Center, but couldn't enter the Corridor without a specific mean

Talking about the Galaxy Cauldron, literally, Sailor Cosmos being Usagi future self who after too much time battling Chaos, she was tired and want to stop, and she literally went back in time and tell Usagi to destroy the Cauldron to stop Chaos for good, cause anyone die will reincarnate via the Cauldron, Chaos will come back to matter what she did, but Usagi against this and convinced Cosmos, like literally, Cosmos know the consequence of destroying the Cauldron and she want Usagi to destroy it anyway, pretty much mean Cauldron is not that important to the cosmology in the way you phrase it

And before your usual "you are acting in bad faith", "you don't know and didn't read the verse". Sorry but i read the entire manga when i was a kid, along with Dragon Ball, Detective Conan and Yugioh all those classical manga, watched the Toei 90s anime and even new Sailor Moon Crystals anime (damn idk why i have sanity to watch Sailor Moon again lol)

I don’t need to provide a scan that says the Cosmos seed is the seed of the cosmos. That’s obvious to anyone who reeds and isn’t acting in bad faith.

No, it isn't how it work, on this site, we obviously don't know how things work, and you, as everyone else, verse supporters, need to provides scans and contexts to explain, you can interpreting, theorizing everything you want, no one bother, but if you want things to get accepted, then convince peoples with evidences, not empty interpretation

And please stop with "anyone who disagree with me mean they are acting in bad faith", Hades argued with clear arguments, reasons, and provided scans and contexts for his arguments, it is called debating and arguing, not acting in bad faith

The words everything in the scans I provided were all used in universal all encompassing scope.

A single word "everything" which faced multiple scans and contexts tell otherwise, you are being semantic

Your entire arguement is to just feigning ignorance and coming up with nonsequitors and pretending the words on the page aren’t real.

No, the words on the page are real, what unreal is your interpretation, theories and......headcanon.

Also ps Type 1 concepts are based off of platonic concepts

No, based off =/= being 1:1. In fact not only platonic concepts being independent, jungian achertype are also independent and predate reality. Also according to our site, power and abilities page is just an guideline, verses and authors themselves can make their own conceptual system that not conform to real life concepts, type 1 concepts is just a banner for all fictional verses that have universal independent concepts

In fact in your very "verse equalizing starseed thread", you just equalized the starseed under the system to make it concepts type 1, nowhere in the verse show that starseed is actual platonic concept

Destroying the seed destroys the form. This basic lore and is already accepted on the wiki. I have shown this multiple times.

Your suppose destroying the seed destroying the form is just, blow up starseed, a person die, blow up starseed, a planet explode. You have been exaggrating this suppose "form"

We know exactly what the cosmos is and exactly what seeds are. The story doesn’t need to explain it like its talking to four year olds.

No, again, we don't know, verse supporters need to actually provides concrete evidences, we are not supposes to follow your theories, you need to convince us. The story doesn't need to explain it like it is talking to four years old, but at the same, we also do not need to follow your suppose theories and headcanon, what we suppose to do is rate the verse based on what it actually show and some extended interpretations that align with the evidences, if the story didn't show it and we didn't rate the verse as you like, then it is the story's and your problem

Like you are literally lying. This is bold face lie.

This is such a dishonest conversation

acting in bad faith.

Time for some of my personal thoughts, let me ask you, is this a debating and arguing platform for powerscaling fictional verses, or it turn into a court now? Rather than actually making counter argument, half of your replies are accusation against the opposition that have nothing to do with this debate, and worse you didn't even have proofs for this accusation

The other half is, arguments such as you didn't read, the verse obvious, it didn't need to talk to you like 4 years old, etc.....which is kindly translated into, we don't have scans or evidences, just interpretation and headcanon, guys please believe me thse headcanon are accurate.

Lastly, sorry for double post, phone is suck ass and i accidentally clicked post reply button when i linked the permission Ant gave me, i want to edit the post but i think otherwise and decide to make another comment. Anyway this is my reply

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Hasty generalization fallacy, just because Thyoron Crystal made up an alternate dimension doesn't mean every starseed does, Thyoron Crystal is just one example, which by all mean, could well be its specific power, an exception.

What exactly are you arguing here, because no one said that all star seeds become alternate dimensions. I don't even get what the point of this argument is because in the very first sentence section i mention all the things that star seeds become.

The Thyoron Crystal is star seed that gave form to a universe. Therefore universes are things that the star seeds give form too. Especially when universes have life, and again the series states that everything that has life comes from a star seed, no matter size, shape, or name.

cause the only thing we know is other than the main universe, there only the supposedly Tau Star System being another, and please don't tell me about Corridor of Space-Time, it is a pieces of thing that went on explained other than the ability to time travel, nowhere in the verse stated that it is also come from Galaxy Cauldron or made from an unknown starseed, iirc it was completely outside of the space-time which also outside of the reach of the galaxy cauldron, Sailor Moon and her friend can physically flies to the Galatic Center, but couldn't enter the Corridor without a specific mean

??? I am confused at what you are trying to say. Are you saying that only the main universe and the tau star system are the only universes in existence? Because that's just objectively false.

Where is your evidence that the corridor is outside the reach of the Galaxy Cauldron? That is the a bold claim to make. Please post scans?

It also doesn't even make sense, Death Phantom, Sailor Pluto, Pharaoh 90, and Sailor Moon each affected the Corridor? Why would the beings who get their power from the cauldron, the source of all power, be able to reach and affect the Galaxy Cauldron, and the Galaxy Cauldron not?

And last time I checked, the Corridor is apart of of the Cosmos therefore it is under the reach of the Cauldron.

The series literally says, "no matter name, shape, or size" it comes from a star seed. This applies to Corridor and any universe. (especially when universes have life, and again the series states that everything that has life comes from a star seed).

Talking about the Galaxy Cauldron, literally, Sailor Cosmos being Usagi future self who after too much time battling Chaos, she was tired and want to stop, and she literally went back in time and tell Usagi to destroy the Cauldron to stop Chaos for good, cause anyone die will reincarnate via the Cauldron, Chaos will come back to matter what she did, but Usagi against this and convinced Cosmos, like literally, Cosmos know the consequence of destroying the Cauldron and she want Usagi to destroy it anyway, pretty much mean Cauldron is not that important to the cosmology in the way you phrase it

What are you even saying? The Cauldron is the most important thing in the entire cosmology. It creates destinies, histories, and futures. Without it there will be no cosmology.

And this doesn't make sense? Because Sailor Cosmos wants Sailor Moon to destroy the Cauldron, therefore it's not imporant? Sailor Cosmos is asking for cosmic suicide. She is depressed from fighting and wants to end it all. She literally begs Sailor Moon to "bear that burden".

No, it isn't how it work, on this site, we obviously don't know how things work, and you, as everyone else, verse supporters, need to provides scans and contexts to explain, you can interpreting, theorizing everything you want, no one bother, but if you want things to get accepted, then convince peoples with evidences, not empty interpretation

And please stop with "anyone who disagree with me mean they are acting in bad faith", Hades argued with clear arguments, reasons, and provided scans and contexts for his arguments, it is called debating and arguing, not acting in bad faith

I do not have to prove that the cosmos seed is the seed of the cosmos with a statement that says the cosmos seed is the seed of the cosmos. That is absurd. Do I need to provide a statement that says, "Planet Kinmoku is a planet", to treat Planet Kinmoku as a planet? Because that technically is a name fallacy, I shouldn't just assume it's planet just because it's name is Planet Kinomuku.

We know what star seeds are. We know what the Cosmos is. The Cosmos Seed is a star seed because it has a Sailor Power Guardian. We don't need to act ignorant as to what the Cosmos seed would be the star seed of.

A single word "everything" which faced multiple scans and contexts tell otherwise, you are being semantic

Words have meanings.

Like this also ridiculous.

Definition of EVERYTHING

all that exists; all that relates to the subject; all that is important… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Everything means everything.

And I repeat, "No matter, name, shape, size" clearly shows that everything has no limiters.

No, based off =/= being 1:1. In fact not only platonic concepts being independent, jungian achertype are also independent and predate reality. Also according to our site, power and abilities page is just an guideline, verses and authors themselves can make their own conceptual system that not conform to real life concepts, type 1 concepts is just a banner for all fictional verses that have universal independent concepts

I have literally already said that Sailor Moon isn't 1:1 to Platonism. I only made a comparison, which human beings are allowed to do. What are you even arguing here?

Time for some of my personal thoughts, let me ask you, is this a debating and arguing platform for powerscaling fictional verses, or it turn into a court now? Rather than actually making counter argument, half of your replies are accusation against the opposition that have nothing to do with this debate, and worse you didn't even have proofs for this accusation

The other half is, arguments such as you didn't read, the verse obvious, it didn't need to talk to you like 4 years old, etc.....which is kindly translated into, we don't have scans or evidences, just interpretation and headcanon, guys please believe me thse headcanon are accurate.

Lastly, sorry for double post, phone is suck ass and i accidentally clicked post reply button when i linked the permission Ant gave me, i want to edit the post but i think otherwise and decide to make another comment. Anyway this is my reply

Your entire argument is, "prove that when the manga says, X it means X" I don't have to prove anything. The text is law.

You prove that manga contradicts it self? You prove that there are things that there are things that don't originate from the cauldron?

The statement, "Everything comes from the galaxy cauldron" has not been disproven once. I have no reason to believe it's untrue.

At this point. I don't really care anymore. Let the staff decide. I have done nothing but provided scans, context, and made my arguments as best as I can. I'm not going back and forth anymore.

After this, I am only responding to any questions staff may have.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I just want to add this!

Queen serenity states that we each have a star in our hearts. The star she speaks of is obviously the star seed.

The star seeds of the cosmos would be stored in its heart. The heart of the cosmos is the cauldron, its the life blood of entire cosmology, creating all potential, possibilities, destinies, futures, and histories.

So to iterate:

The Cosmos Seeds Guardian is in the Cauldron.
The Star Seed is kept in the heart of the form.
The Cauldron is the heart of the Cosmos.

Therefore the Cosmos Seed is inside the Cauldron.

 

[Qawsedf234]

three more people permission to comment on this thread excessive?

While off topic, users on staff threads are only allowed a limited amount of comments unless they're directly involved like you or Hades. So Ant allowing three or more people to comment one time would really clog up anything.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

While off topic, users on staff threads are only allowed a limited amount of comments unless they're directly involved like you or Hades. So Ant allowing three or more people to comment one time would really clog up anything.

If you say but my concern is that their comments should be relevant, Viett's comments almost have nothing to do with BDE standards, and brought up a lot of things that I didn't say or even argued.

 

[SailorRanger64]

While off topic, users on staff threads are only allowed a limited amount of comments unless they're directly involved like you or Hades. So Ant allowing three or more people to comment one time would really clog up anything.

I don't know if this is okay, but I did make a post the other day summarizing my thoughts on the hierarchy in this thread in general if anyone wants to look at that.

 

[Antvasima]

While off topic, users on staff threads are only allowed a limited amount of comments unless they're directly involved like you or Hades. So Ant allowing three or more people to comment one time would really clog up anything.

I think that I only allowed a few posts of comments, and only ones that are genuinely useful and informative, but you may be right that one post each is sufficient.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

This needs to be closed. The arguments have to be completely rewritten with recent changes. Thank you.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Alright