The Galaxy Cauldron: High 1A+ Upgrade

[Qawsedf234]

Threats like this are a very aggressive way to act.

Yeah, this is getting toxic. Just make your summary posts and take a break from the thread. Continued negative actions will result in a thread ban/official warning.

 

[MeiouHades]

They are posting the raw, because the official english scan which has been proven to be accurate doesn't mention anything they are saying. In fact in the very seen, it is stated that the silver crystal can create a paradox that will destroy all of reality.

"FUTURE AND THE PAST"

"MIRAI TO KAKO KO"

Literally exists in the raw, the raw is THE MOST accurate source of information!! If the English translation you're using does not mention these terms WHILE YOU KNOW they exist in the raw then you are explicitly misleading people and fabricating evidence!!! Also how does creating a paradox prove or disprove anything there regarding the need for conceptual transcendence of space time (and don't act like this is a new concept because I literally pointed out in the FIRST PAGE in my comment that this is what you're gonna need but you refuse to read it)

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

It doesn't. But at the same time I also explained my stance here

If it's above a timeline or time travel, that's not the same as conceptual transcendence.

Yeah, but I was pointing out how the panel says: “だが未来と過去この二つの「幻の銀水晶の.” The bolded part literally meaning the past and future in the Japanese. I was trying to show you how there’s no conceptual transcedence going on here, and the thing that has no concept of direction is the time space corridor, which is not the galaxy cauldron. Those two are two different things within the verse (even with the space-time corridor they just need to utilize a space-time key).

This is untrue. Also the translation, uses surpassing which aligns with what the DBE page says.

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Could someone translate these ?🙏 I'm looking for the words: essence, foundation or fundamental 「主のお傍にと望むのは当然のこと。我等の根幹たる想念も、そこに尽きます」 (我等の根幹たる想念 Warera no konkan taru sonen) = Our fundamental/foundational ideas/conceptions 　(根幹 Konkan) = A foundation, fundaments or basis 　(想念 Sonen) =...

vsbattles.com

It literally says future and past big dawg. The context of surpassing or transcending space time here is time travel. Many other verses that use time travel have the same statements.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

?????

"未来と過去こ"

"Mirai to kako ko"

"FUTURE AND THE PAST"

I might just report you at this point for blatantly lying

Is this supposed to mean something? Get an official translator and post the entire conversation. The existence of the world "future and past" doesn't mean anything without context. ALso the words, "space time" 時空 is present as well.

I am tired of this behavior. You are making this impossible and difficult.

 

[MeiouHades]

Yeah, this is getting toxic. Just make your summary posts and take a break from the thread. Continued negative actions will result in a thread ban/official warning.

Yeah I'm workin' on it, for now though all you need to know is that conceptual transcendence isn't mentioned here. In fact @Da3ggman here actually wanted to get the raws translated specifically to see if there's a mention of conceptual transcendence right here

And right below that @HenshinIntervention states that you don't need that term (but we know you do). And as a final nail in the coffin, here's a translator right below that saying it doesn't have anything like that at all here

And all of that while the context here is actually time travel given the term "未来と過去こ" which literally translate to "The future and the past".

Given such evidence I don't even think a summary is needed and this should be rejected right here, but I'm still gonna do it anyway to make it easier for everyone

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

OMG. This is so funny.

Prince demande is holding the silver crystals of the past and future. This is what happens when you jump to conclusion. You make an ass of yourselves.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'd recommend that you both withhold from responding to each other for the time being. The situation is only getting worse.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I'd recommend that you both withhold from responding to each other for the time being. The situation is only getting worse.

Sorry. I should be more composed, but just for reference, the "past and future" they're screaming about, is that Prince Demande is holding both the Silver Crystal of the past and the Silver Crystal of the Future. IT has nothing to do with time travel like what they're saying. They should get an official translator to translate for everyone, but this is just the quick context.

 

[MeiouHades]

Sorry. I should be more composed, but just for reference, the "past and future" they're screaming about, is that Prince Demande is holding both the Silver Crystal of the past and the Silver Crystal of the Future. IT has nothing to do with time travel like what they're saying. They should get an official translator to translate for everyone, but this is just the quick context.

Just one last reply. But we did

 

[MeiouHades]

Summary Time:
Alright, so this is gonna serve as full-on summary to encompass the essence of almost everything that I've argued in the thread. This will include all arguments I've presented including and especially relating to the standards of BDE2/Low 1-A, using @Qawsedf234's responses as well which clarify the standards even more than the standard page does otherwise. Let us begin:

Why there is no Low 1-A/BDE Type 2 (No Conceptual Transcendence?):
Alright, so this is gonna serve as full-on summary to encompass the essence of almost everything that I've argued in the thread. This will include all arguments I've
presented including and especially relating to the standards of BDE2/Low 1-A, using @Qawsedf234's responses as well which clarify the standards even more than the standard page does otherwise. Let us begin:

Let us first start by describing what is needed in order for one to achieve Low 1-A. According to the BDE Type 2 page itself:

"Through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence."

As in, it's not enough to just lack space or time, one must prove that it ontologically surpasses or transcends them. It also states this however:

"As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar. "

Now, one might think that this gives anyone and their mothers with a "transcending space time/dimensions" statement a free pass to Low 1-A. But, that is not the case. Here @Qawsedf234 makes a VERY important and key distinction (that should honestly be on the page itself IMO). Here's what their message says, not once, but twice:

"If it's just a generic "Above time and space" sure, but if they're conceptually above it, then it would count. Though going through the thread, I'm not entirely sure if the OP proved that point yet."

"If it's above a timeline or time travel, that's not the same as conceptual transcendence."

Now, one might ask if there exists such a statement in the series at all to support this, and well, the answer is no. One of our own site translators looked at the scan that OP themselves have used to apparently prove transcendence and well... here is what they had to say 'bout it:

"yeah nothing there says anything about it as a concept. unless I'm blind as hell."

So.... no conceptual transcendence here unless they're blind, a really strong statement indeed.

Oh but it goes further than this. I, as an opposition to this thread, tried to tell the OP (who, by the way, is aware of this translation since they're present in that translation thread) directly that this is what they need. And well.... this is what they have to say. Left a bad taste in my mouth.

To add insult to injury, that statement of transcending time and space? That's also of dubious nature at best, because of this scan right here.

Now why's this so important. Well, two reasons actually. First is because of this little part (未来と過去) which basically translate to "The future and the past". The context here seems to be time travel, because the two silver crystals there are the past and future crystals. What makes it worse though, and the key to disproving any "transcendence" of space-time of the Silver Crystal, is the next statement. It says (何を時空を越えたパワーに勝てるかな) which roughly translates to, in English, as "What can beat a power that transcends time and space"?

Notice the distinction here? The POWER of the Silver crystal may transcend time and space (whatever that means here), the object itself however isn't really stated to, anywhere, and I don't think "power that transcends space-time" are given any tiering per our standards currently


Okay, so conceptual transcendence is out of the question here. In fact, Qawsedf himself states that he hasn't seen OP even argue that anywhere, so not only is it a crucial part of achieving BDE Type 2, the OP doesn't even have any evidence or arguments for it as would be requisite.

So, one of the main (and only, in this case) methods of arguing BDE Type 2/Low 1-A via a complete, Ontological surpassing/transcendence of all of space and time is simply not even present in this thread.... so I'm pretty sure it's easy to see that it shouldn't be granted that tier. But, there is more....

The Anti-Feats:

Now, here comes the time for anti-feats. Let's assume that we do grant is Low 1-A for whatever reason. We will now look at some of the problems with the Cauldron (or any associated objects, which as you'll see is an important part of this section) having this rating and why it cannot achieve it even if it DID meet all of the above requisites to warrant the tier.

Okay, so let's first define what the anti-feats for this would even be. Thankfully, @Qawsedf234 once again specified that exactly so we needn't speculate anything. Here is what they state about anti-feats:

"Objects that transcend time-space can also get BDE Type 1/2 for being above-dimensional structures. You do run into anti-feats, however, as unless you say everyone who handles those objects are also Low 1-A/1-A then they shouldn't be interactable by lower dimensional beings."

Okay, so they state that anyone who interacts or handles those objects must also be Low 1-A/1-A for this to work. Now you might be wondering why Qawsedf is talking about an object when we're talking about the Cauldron. Well, this is Qawsedf's first message in the thread, in it, he states this specifically:

"But the sole usage of the word "transcends" comes from Silver Crystals transcending space-time on some level"

So basically Qawsedf is referring to the Silver crystal when he says "Objects that transcend time-space can also get BDE Type 1/2 for being above-dimensional structures" this. So, is the Silver Crystal BDE Type 2/Low 1-A/1-A then?

Nope. And because of this very equivalence, I can simply post these scans (one, two and three) that show something quite interesting. Here you can see normal, lower dimensional beings, non-Low 1-A/1-A beings (which, yes, the OP didn't even put in their argument as being Low 1-A or 1-A so it's not circular reasoning to say this, they also can't be Low 1-A at this point in the story anyway) handling the supposed "Object with BDE Type 1/Type 2" like it's some cheap toy. The exact thing @Qawsedf234 said SHOULD NOT have happened.

Okay, that's a pretty big blow. What else? Well, it actually goes even further beyond (HAH!). Let's talk about the the Cauldron itself for a moment. Here's some funny scans (one, two, three, four, five, six and another one). So, for those that don't know, what's basically happening here is that Sailor Moon is calling upon not only the Silver crystal, but ALL Sailor crystals in order to use them to stop Chaos who has merged with the Cauldron. In short, her goal is to basically affect the Cauldron itself (by nuking herself too). Now, why's this so important?

Well, as we've already established just above, these crystals are NOT Low 1-A objects themselves, so them interacting with a supposedly Low 1-A realm (which itself is dependent on them being Low 1-A in the first place, according to Qawsedf, so for OP to argue this would actually be circular reasoning) shouldn't happen. After all, if the Silver Crystal (the most powerful among the Sailor crystals) can be interacted by almost anyone like it's a toy, what can we say about other Sailor crystals then? In fact, I DID bring this up to the OP, and this is what they had to say about it:

"The power the crystals have comes from the cauldron, lower beings can affect higher beings if they are using the power of the higher realm"

And.... just as we feared, this is exactly what OP argues. Circular logic. But it's worse here, because unlke what Qawsedf states about the Silver crystal having BDE, the OP doesn't even mention this premise ONCE. So to argue this entirely new point now that has not a shred of evidence in the original post is just a horrible strategy especially after they've been ignoring the actual point of providing proof for conceptual transcendence of the Silver crystal.

Okay, so now we're finally done right? We've proven that the OP does not follow the most important standards for the rating and we've shown that their scaling has anti-feats, so are we done? WRONG! Actually, there's more to the anti-feats than this, and this is IMO the most important anti-feat of all. Let's examine.

So, for the Cauldron to even remotely qualify for any higher tier, it must at least be proven that such a structure is absolutely foundational to the existence of reality/cosmology, that, without which, an immediate collapse would follow. This isn't me stating it, this is what @Qawsedf234 has said here, verbatim:

"If the cauldron is removed and the universes cease to exist when that happens, I think a higher tier is warranted. If the cauldron being destroyed doesn't result in the universe collapsing instantly, but it decays until a new one is formed that blows a hole through one of the main supporting items of the suggested tier."


Okay, so basically if we can prove that the destruction of the Cauldron won't immediately cease the existence of all reality (in this case, the entire cosmology, or at least the universe itself) then we basically have the final nail in the coffin, the final anti-feat to put this to rest. And, unsurprisingly, we do have that information via some very key scans. Here's the first scan. In here, Chibi Chibi (who is basically Sailor Cosmos, a distant future version of Sailor Moon who returned to the past) tells current Usagi to destroy the Galaxy Cauldron (that Sailor Chaos merged with) "For the future of the galaxy". Now, to everyone reading this, does "for the future of the galaxy" even remotely sound like immediate cosmological destruction to any of you? To me, personally, I think it's suugesting the exact opposite, it seems to suggest the continued existence of the galaxy and by extension the universe and the rest of the cosmology.

Alright, that's a strong blow. But wait, didn't Usagi state that the galaxy will be destroyed anyway? Well.... sort of but not really. Here's what she says in the second scan. She says, and I quote, "Then one day, the galaxy really won't have a future!!".... Huh, so not only does it not suggest immediate cessation of the universe/the cosmology, it doesn't even suggest the immediate death of the galaxy itself because the operator "one day" here suggests the process/decay is eventual/overtime, exactly what Qawsedf stated WOULDN'T qualify.

And to hammer this point home, the idea that the entire cosmology would instantly cease to exist is not only not supported in the third and fourth scans, she states the following "But even if THIS galaxy is destroyed.... a new Cauldron is sure to spring into existence somewhere else"

Now let's deconstruct this statement a bit. The first part talks about, clearly, THIS galaxy (the one they're in) specifically. So, even here, there's no mention of instant cosmological collapse of cessation anywhere. The part about "ending everything", don't confuse it for that. The statement "end everything" and all similar ones require some context, and the context here does this, that is, THIS Galaxy. The second part of the statement is equally as important, following the first. So, it states that even if this galaxy is destroyed, a NEW Cauldron (the galactic center, mind you) will pop into existence elsewhere. Now, because the focus is on THIS galaxy, and because there is NO mention of instant universal/cosmological collapse anywhere here (and well.... because the Galaxy Cauldron is LITERALLY described as the galactic center) I think the implication is VERY clear that this is talking about a new Cauldron popping up in another galaxy. Also a little side note; don't confuse this for the Cauldron "regenerating", this is something the OP made up earlier with no scan suggesting any such mechanic. It'll be a NEW Cauldron, and there's no mention of regeneration, as per the scans.

Okay but what about the Cosmos seed??? Surely destroying that is gonna destroy the universe right....? And surely Usagi knows nothing of that! Well, one small problem. Sailor Cosmos is actually implied to have met the Guardian Cosmos (the one guarding the Cosmos seed in the Cauldron) as per this scan when she was in the Cauldron. So surely, she would know of the existence of the Cosmos seed and.... even she says NOTHING about complete universal/cosmological destruction. All her statements, every single one, either about destruction or preserving, has been not on a universal/cosmological scale but on a galactic scale, and that too over time as I showed.


Alright, we've finally reached the end here. We've handled everything, explained everything and proven all that was necessary. Just to recap, here's what we did.
1.) We've proven that the transcendence of space-time does not occur on a conceptual level, that is to say, neither the Cauldron nor the Crystals that it forms are stated or shown to be Ontologically superior to lower forms of reality. Not only that, but their statements of transcendence of space-time are used in entirely different contexts, and they lack the statements of utterly exceeding/surpassing dimensions or transcending the concept of dimensionality altogether. All of which, according to the BDE page and Qawsedf himself, are what's needed to qualify for said tiers. I've also shown that the transcendence statement refers not to the Silver Crystal itself but merely its power which doesn't really mean much here, nor do such statements qualify for BDE generally. It's also kind of hard to see what transcending time and space would even mean here, for the Crystal, given that there are TWO of them. One from the past, the other from the future. This isn't really indicative of an object that transcended time.

2.) We've shown anti-feats regarding the transcendence of the Silver Crystal such as them being handled and interacted with by being of lower dimensions or non-Low1-A/1-A beings. We've also shown that that these Crystals, which are of the same nature as the silver Crystals, can be used to interact with the Cauldron. In short, Crystals that can be handled by non-Low1-A/1-A beings can interact with or affect the Cauldron.

3.) And lastly we have, without a shadow of a doubt, proven that the destruction of the Cauldron will not result in instant universal or cosmological collapse, not even instant galactic destruction at that, implying that the Cauldron is not as fundamental to existence so as to warrant the rating OP proposed, for which we used the additional evidence that anothe Cauldron will just pop up (not regenerate) in some other galaxy once THIS one dies out.

And with this, we've finally put to rest any and all notions of Low 1-A Sailor Moon/Cauldron. That's all, thank you all for reading.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I will respond shortly.

 

[MeiouHades]

Snip

Here's the summary above, I did my best to highlight and explain it all

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I think it's a bit ridiculous the opponents had to reiterate their points ad nauseam which the OP just ignores and cant understand why the person disagreeing with them thinks it's sufficient. Generally disagree.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think it's a bit ridiculous the opponents had to reiterate their points ad nauseam which the OP just ignores and cant understand why the person disagreeing with them thinks it's sufficient. Generally disagree.

While I understand the commentary, I would ask to wait for the OP to respond first before making any more points.

 

[AsterReal]

I think it's a bit ridiculous the opponents had to reiterate their points ad nauseam which the OP just ignores and cant understand why the person disagreeing with them thinks it's sufficient. Generally disagree.

Quaser has already requested that such comments not be made. They only clutter the thread.

 

[Hasty12345]

Summary Time:

I ain’t reading all that but I agree.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Mods should’ve been here to actually regulate the debate pages ago. This even harder to follow than it was yesterday.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Why there is no Low 1-A/BDE Type 2 (No Conceptual Transcendence?):
Alright, so this is gonna serve as full-on summary to encompass the essence of almost everything that I've argued in the thread. This will include all arguments I've
presented including and especially relating to the standards of BDE2/Low 1-A, using @Qawsedf234's responses as well which clarify the standards even more than the standard page does otherwise. Let us begin:

Let us first start by describing what is needed in order for one to achieve Low 1-A. According to the BDE Type 2 page itself:

"Through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence."

As in, it's not enough to just lack space or time, one must prove that it ontologically surpasses or transcends them. It also states this however:

"As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar. "

Now, one might think that this gives anyone and their mothers with a "transcending space time/dimensions" statement a free pass to Low 1-A. But, that is not the case. Here @Qawsedf234 makes a VERY important and key distinction (that should honestly be on the page itself IMO). Here's what their message says, not once, but twice:

"If it's just a generic "Above time and space" sure, but if they're conceptually above it, then it would count. Though going through the thread, I'm not entirely sure if the OP proved that point yet."

The Silver Crystal is recognized as a Type 1 Concept in this wiki through Metaphysical Equalization. It is directly stated to transcend time and space. So it's transcendence is inherently conceptual by nature. In the translation thread that Hades has linked, the translator says this:

Plus its (超えて Koete) which isn't a Concrete definition of Transcending something. yes that is One of its definitions, but more usually is more so referring to surpassing/exceeding it.

The word that is translated as transcendence means surpassing/exceeding. The HDE page states this:

2) Through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence.

The Silver Crystal was created by the Cauldron and was once one was with the cauldron. It's properties were gifted by the Cauldron. The manga directly states that Sailor Moon inherited the light of the cauldron. (The Silver Crystal is Sailor Moon's concept) So it stands that the Galaxy Cauldron transcends spacetime. Also, the fact that the Silver Crystal and all star seeds and sailor crystal come from the Cauldron, and were all one within the cauldron means that the Cauldron is a conceptual realm by definition. This means the the Cauldron is the progenitor of all metaphysical aspects of the verse.

Now! My argument is not hinged on a simple sentence. I have more ample proof. The HDE page also states this:

A simple example being a realm that is stated to lack space, time and physicality entirely, but is nonetheless shown as being "vaster" than physical reality in some way. Common imagery of this includes the universe as a small object encompassed in a wider backdrop.

The Cosmos seed is the seed for the entire cosmos and exists inside the cauldron as part of it. It is stated that the seeds in the cauldron are very small, or infinitesimal, basically drops of water in a ocean. The seed of the entire cosmology is but a infinitesimal part of the entire Cauldron. I believe this is tangible proof of transcendence that goes beyond simple statements.

"If it's above a timeline or time travel, that's not the same as conceptual transcendence."

Now, one might ask if there exists such a statement in the series at all to support this, and well, the answer is no. One of our own site translators looked at the scan that OP themselves have used to apparently prove transcendence and well... here is what they had to say 'bout it:

"yeah nothing there says anything about it as a concept. unless I'm blind as hell."

So.... no conceptual transcendence here unless they're blind, a really strong statement indeed.

Oh but it goes further than this. I, as an opposition to this thread, tried to tell the OP (who, by the way, is aware of this translation since they're present in that translation thread) directly that this is what they need. And well.... this is what they have to say. Left a bad taste in my mouth.

Okay, so conceptual transcendence is out of the question here. In fact, Qawsedf himself states that he hasn't seen OP even argue that anywhere, so not only is it a crucial part of achieving BDE Type 2, the OP doesn't even have any evidence or arguments for it as would be requisite.

So, one of the main (and only, in this case) methods of arguing BDE Type 2/Low 1-A via a complete, Ontological surpassing/transcendence of all of space and time is simply not even present in this thread.... so I'm pretty sure it's easy to see that it shouldn't be granted that tier. But, there is more....

I just want to say that this rushed and random accusation that the scan I posted is about time travel is bogus. The mentions of past and future are references to the Silver Crystal of the past and the Silver Crystal of the future. The statements on transcending have nothing to do with time travel or timelines. In fact the, the very next panels talk about how if the two crystals touch it would create a paradox that would annihilate everything.

Now, here comes the time for anti-feats. Let's assume that we do grant is Low 1-A for whatever reason. We will now look at some of the problems with the Cauldron (or any associated objects, which as you'll see is an important part of this section) having this rating and why it cannot achieve it even if it DID meet all of the above requisites to warrant the tier.

Okay, so let's first define what the anti-feats for this would even be. Thankfully, @Qawsedf234 once again specified that exactly so we needn't speculate anything. Here is what they state about anti-feats:

"Objects that transcend time-space can also get BDE Type 1/2 for being above-dimensional structures. You do run into anti-feats, however, as unless you say everyone who handles those objects are also Low 1-A/1-A then they shouldn't be interactable by lower dimensional beings."

Okay, so they state that anyone who interacts or handles those objects must also be Low 1-A/1-A for this to work. Now you might be wondering why Qawsedf is talking about an object when we're talking about the Cauldron. Well, this is Qawsedf's first message in the thread, in it, he states this specifically:

"But the sole usage of the word "transcends" comes from Silver Crystals transcending space-time on some level"

So basically Qawsedf is referring to the Silver crystal when he says "Objects that transcend time-space can also get BDE Type 1/2 for being above-dimensional structures" this. So, is the Silver Crystal BDE Type 2/Low 1-A/1-A then?

Nope. And because of this very equivalence, I can simply post these scans (one, two and three) that show something quite interesting. Here you can see normal, lower dimensional beings, non-Low 1-A/1-A beings (which, yes, the OP didn't even put in their argument as being Low 1-A or 1-A so it's not circular reasoning to say this, they also can't be Low 1-A at this point in the story anyway) handling the supposed "Object with BDE Type 1/Type 2" like it's some cheap toy. The exact thing @Qawsedf234 said SHOULD NOT have happened.

I am not arguing that silver crystal gets BDE, I am arguing for the Cauldron gets it, so entire argument is a waste of time. But let's throw Hades a bone, and say he's right, people "handling" the silver crystal is anti-feat and therefore it's not BDE, and therefore it doesn't transcend spacetime. That would still be irrelevant. The Cauldron has evidence of transcendence according the wiki's guidelines by the very concept of the cosmology being a small part of it as stated above.

Okay, that's a pretty big blow. What else? Well, it actually goes even further beyond (HAH!). Let's talk about the the Cauldron itself for a moment. Here's some funny scans (one, two, three, four, five, six and another one). So, for those that don't know, what's basically happening here is that Sailor Moon is calling upon not only the Silver crystal, but ALL Sailor crystals in order to use them to stop Chaos who has merged with the Cauldron. In short, her goal is to basically affect the Cauldron itself (by nuking herself too). Now, why's this so important?

?I first want to state that Sailor Moon doesn't nuke herself??

Well, as we've already established just above, these crystals are NOT Low 1-A objects themselves, so them interacting with a supposedly Low 1-A realm (which itself is dependent on them being Low 1-A in the first place, according to Qawsedf, so for OP to argue this would actually be circular reasoning) shouldn't happen. After all, if the Silver Crystal (the most powerful among the Sailor crystals) can be interacted by almost anyone like it's a toy, what can we say about other Sailor crystals then? In fact, I DID bring this up to the OP, and this is what they had to say about it:

"The power the crystals have comes from the cauldron, lower beings can affect higher beings if they are using the power of the higher realm"

And.... just as we feared, this is exactly what OP argues. Circular logic. But it's worse here, because unlke what Qawsedf states about the Silver crystal having BDE, the OP doesn't even mention this premise ONCE. So to argue this entirely new point now that has not a shred of evidence in the original post is just a horrible strategy especially after they've been ignoring the actual point of providing proof for conceptual transcendence of the Silver crystal.

Anyways. Again this requires some alternate reality where I am arguing that the Silver Crystal has BDE, which I'm not. It's just a straw man.

And my argument, "The Power the crystals have comes from the cauldron; lower beings can affect higher beings if they are using the power of the higher realm" is not circular logic. I don't even understand why that's being called circular reasoning. It's been a clearly repeated standard on this wiki that the power to transcend the lower realm cannot originate from the lower realm.

Also, the claim that the power of the crystals come from the cauldron is a new point and there's no evidence in the OP is just false. It's literally the first thing I say.

Okay, so now we're finally done right? We've proven that the OP does not follow the most important standards for the rating and we've shown that their scaling has anti-feats, so are we done? WRONG! Actually, there's more to the anti-feats than this, and this is IMO the most important anti-feat of all. Let's examine.

So, for the Cauldron to even remotely qualify for any higher tier, it must at least be proven that such a structure is absolutely foundational to the existence of reality/cosmology, that, without which, an immediate collapse would follow. This isn't me stating it, this is what @Qawsedf234 has said here, verbatim:

"If the cauldron is removed and the universes cease to exist when that happens, I think a higher tier is warranted. If the cauldron being destroyed doesn't result in the universe collapsing instantly, but it decays until a new one is formed that blows a hole through one of the main supporting items of the suggested tier."

For this section, I will go bit by bit.

Okay, so basically if we can prove that the destruction of the Cauldron won't immediately cease the existence of all reality (in this case, the entire cosmology, or at least the universe itself) then we basically have the final nail in the coffin, the final anti-feat to put this to rest. And, unsurprisingly, we do have that information via some very key scans. Here's the first scan. In here, Chibi Chibi (who is basically Sailor Cosmos, a distant future version of Sailor Moon who returned to the past) tells current Usagi to destroy the Galaxy Cauldron (that Sailor Chaos merged with) "For the future of the galaxy". Now, to everyone reading this, does "for the future of the galaxy" even remotely sound like immediate cosmological destruction to any of you? To me, personally, I think it's suugesting the exact opposite, it seems to suggest the continued existence of the galaxy and by extension the universe and the rest of the cosmology.

Hades is leaving out the fact that Sailor Cosmos (Chibi Chibi) is depressed and ran away from the future because all her loved ones are dead and she is tired of the endless war with Chaos and Sailor Chaos. She wants Sailor Moon. She wants to create peace, however that peace comes with destroying both good and bad. Here is the full sequence:



That future Sailor Cosmos wants to bring about, Sailor Moon describes it as "Ending everything" "dropping the scythe of death". It's an end to to death, war, and darkness, but it's also an end to life, love, and hope.

Hade's interpretation that destroying the cauldron would be a continued existence of galaxy, by extension the universe is just objectively wrong. It's very clear that the peace Chibi Chibi wants is nothingness.

Alright, that's a strong blow. But wait, didn't Usagi state that the galaxy will be destroyed anyway? Well.... sort of but not really. Here's what she says in the second scan. She says, and I quote, "Then one day, the galaxy really won't have a future!!".... Huh, so not only does it not suggest immediate cessation of the universe/the cosmology, it doesn't even suggest the immediate death of the galaxy itself because the operator "one day" here suggests the process/decay is eventual/overtime, exactly what Qawsedf stated WOULDN'T qualify.

Hades is now flipflopping. He just argued that destroying the cauldron would be a continued existence, now here he argues a few lines later that the universe will end. He then switches his argument that, the universe will end but not immediately.

Anyways, to address this anti-feat. Sailor Moon at this moment of time has not entered the Cauldron and does not know about the existence of the cosmos seed yet. And we know that the destruction of the seed, causes the immediate destruction of the form.

It should be noted that this is all hypothetical and both Galaxia and Moon us indefinite words to describe what could happen. Only Cosmos is aware and she doesn't give any information about what will happen, other than she wants it to be done.

And to hammer this point home, the idea that the entire cosmology would instantly cease to exist is not only not supported in the third and fourth scans, she states the following "But even if THIS galaxy is destroyed.... a new Cauldron is sure to spring into existence somewhere else"

I don't know why this is listed as an anti-feat. If the cosmos is destroyed, a new cauldron will be reborn and start a new history.

Also I don't know why the focus on "this galaxy", if the cosmos is destroyed, the galaxy will be destroyed along with it. This is just bad logic. Also, the milky way is the galaxy where the characters live and where the cauldron is; it's not surprising that the cast focuses on their home. When a hurricane destroys a town, someone lamenting the destruction of their house doesn't suggest that only their house will be destroyed.

Now let's deconstruct this statement a bit. The first part talks about, clearly, THIS galaxy (the one they're in) specifically. So, even here, there's no mention of instant cosmological collapse of cessation anywhere.

"Even if this galaxy is destroyed" is neither evidence of delayed or instant destruction. In both scenarios the galaxy will be destroyed.

The part about "ending everything", don't confuse it for that. The statement "end everything" and all similar ones require some context, and the context here does this, that is, THIS Galaxy.

As shown in the sequence of scans above, after talking about this galaxy, they start talking about the universe. Hades conveniently leaves this part out. We go from talking about the future of the galaxy to talking about the distant future of the entire universe.

Also here's a bonus:



Chaos says he'll take the cauldron's place as ruler of the entire cosmos. Why would the cauldron be called the ruler of the entire cosmos if its scope is only the galaxy.

The second part of the statement is equally as important, following the first. So, it states that even if this galaxy is destroyed, a NEW one will pop into existence elsewhere. Now, because the focus is on THIS galaxy, and because there is NO mention of instant universal/cosmological collapse anywhere here (and well.... because the Galaxy Cauldron is LITERALLY described as the galactic center) I think the implication is VERY clear that this is talking about a new Cauldron popping up in another galaxy.

The Galaxy Cauldron is called a galactic center because it's at the center of galaxy.

Also, let's take this to its logical conclusion. Let's assume Hades is right, and the universe will die a slow death. The galaxy cauldron won't come back until after the galaxy is destroyed per Galaxia. It will take at least 100 trillion years for the last stars in our galaxy to finally die. By that time, there will be no galaxies left in our universe. So Hades's interpretation that a new galaxy cauldron will be born in another galaxy doesn't work. He can argue the destruction is not immediate (which i have debunked) but he can't also argue that a galaxy cauldron will be born in another galaxy at the same time.

I think the implication is VERY clear that this is talking about a new Cauldron popping up in another galaxy. Also a little side note; don't confuse this for the Cauldron "regenerating", this is something the OP made up earlier with no scan suggesting any such mechanic. It'll be a NEW Cauldron, and there's no mention of regeneration, as per the scans.

This is just silly and pedantic. If cut off my arm and regenerate it, the arm I regenerated is new. I also said "regenerate or reborn".

Okay but what about the Cosmos seed??? Surely destroying that is gonna destroy the Cauldron right....? And surely Usagi knows nothing of that! Well, one small problem. Sailor Cosmos is actually implied to have met the Guardian Cosmos (the one guarding the Cosmos seed in the Cauldron) as per this scan when she was in the Cauldron. So surely, she would know of the existence of the Cosmos seed and.... even she says NOTHING about complete universal/cosmological destruction.

First of all. That's not Sailor Cosmos. That's queen serenity. Also what exactly is Hades even arguing here?

Cosmos is trying to convince sailor moon to destroy the cauldron, why would she take time to describe what's going to happen after its destroyed? Her goal is to convince Sailor Moon to destroy the cauldron. As stated before, she's in hopeless state and wants to bring about peace by ending everything and having nothingness.

All her statements, every single one, either about destruction or preserving, has been not on a universal/cosmological scale but on a galactic scale, and that too over time as I showed.

As posted above, the conversation flip flops between galactic and universal. (spoiler alert, the galaxy is apart of the universe). Also the bolded is untrue. None of Cosmos's statements show that the destruction would be over time.

And since Hades trusts Sailor Cosmos's words so much, here is her saying the Cauldron can't be destroyed.



If we want to play the literal and pedantic game: "it's because of this place that we continue living" if you destroy the cauldron, things will stop living since, their life is dependent on the cauldron. Stars and planets etc. are also alive in sailor moon. If the cauldron is destroyed, they will stop living. That sounds immediate to me.

The destruction of the Galaxy Cauldron never happens, and we have no idea what that would look like and how that would play. The only facts we do know for certain, is that the cosmos seed is within the cauldron, and destruction of the seed causes the form to immediately disappear across the entire timeline.

3.) And lastly we have, without a shadow of a doubt, proven that the destruction of the Cauldron will not result in instant universal or cosmological collapse, not even instant galactic destruction at that, implying that the Cauldron is not as fundamental to existence so as to warrant the rating OP proposed, for which we used the additional evidence that anothe Cauldron will just pop up (not regenerate) in some other galaxy once THIS one dies out.

Notice that my argument was that the Cosmos Seed is inside the cauldron, and also one with the cauldron is never addressed. Destruction of the seeds, result in the immediate destruction of the forms. Destroying the Cosmos Seed will immediately destroy the Cosmos. Hades doesn't address this at all in his summary.

Also his idea that the cauldron is not fundamental to existence is absurd. How can something that birthed the cosmos, and all its concepts not be fundamental to the cosmology?

 

[Thermor]

Mods should’ve been here to actually regulate the debate pages ago. This even harder to follow than it was yesterday.

A lot of other crts are unfinished y know?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

There's an enormous lack of sources here, unless I'm just missing them.

The Cauldron also created the Silver Crystal, a Sailor Crystal, stated to transcend space and time, be utterly unhindered by the layers of time, cut through space and time, and again stated to transcend space and time.

What chapters do these 4 scans come from?

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

OP’s argument makes more sense to me. I’ll agree on the BDE rating; that part is pretty straightforward. I’ll stay neutral on the other points.

As for opposition, the overconfident posturing and appeals to finality in the rebuttals - and throughout this entire CRT - strike me as bad faith. It doesn’t add substance. Especially now that OP has already addressed them ad nauseam and vice versa. For what it’s worth, I’d just encourage everyone to stay civil and avoid making this personal.

Someone should probably poke Agnaa or DT to help clear up some of the more contentious points. I'd suggest Ultima but he seems increasingly busy as of late.

 

[Robo432343]

Also his idea that the cauldron is not fundamental to existence is absurd. How can something that birthed the cosmos, and all its concepts not be fundamental to the cosmology?

where did he say that?

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

I skimmed through a bible for ya.

where did he say that?

3.) And lastly we have, without a shadow of a doubt, proven that the destruction of the Cauldron will not result in instant universal or cosmological collapse, not even instant galactic destruction at that, implying that the Cauldron is not as fundamental to existence so as to warrant the rating OP proposed, for which we used the additional evidence that anothe Cauldron will just pop up (not regenerate) in some other galaxy once THIS one dies out.

 

[MeiouHades]

The Silver Crystal is recognized as a Type 1 Concept in this wiki through Metaphysical Equalization. It is directly stated to transcend time and space.

Nope. IT isn't stated to transcend space and time, its power is. The object itself is not, never was. The raw literally says Nani o Jikū o koeta Pawā ni Kateru kana Suru ki da!! This is a worthwhile and important distinction as it proves that there's no transcendence really going on here, just a generic "power that transcends space and time!!!!!" statement. Given Naoko Takeuchi's known tendency to favor hyperbolic phrasing, that is precisely what it is.

Also think about this too. Let's say the silver crystal DOES truly, conceptually even transcend time. Why do there exists two silver crystals....? What kind of transcendence over time allows for an object to exist at multiple places in time simultaneously? Either the statement of transcendence isn't for the object itself (which it isn't, as I just showed) or the transcendence itself doesn't mean much here beyond serving a literary purpose, or both.

So it's transcendence is inherently conceptual by nature. In the translation thread that Hades has linked, the translator says this:

No, that absolutely does not follow. Let's take your line of reasoning here. The Crystals are Type 1 Concepts currently, one of those crystals (or its power, in this case) "transcending" space time means.... nothing. The crystals having conceptual nature DOES NOT imply that their transcendence over the concept of space, time and dimensionality is also conceptual. No idea where you got that from.

Plus its (超えて Koete) which isn't a Concrete definition of Transcending something. yes that is One of its definitions, but more usually is more so referring to surpassing/exceeding it.

The word that is translated as transcendence means surpassing/exceeding. The HDE page states this:

2) Through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence.

The Silver Crystal was created by the Cauldron and was once one was with the cauldron. It's properties were gifted by the Cauldron. The manga directly states that Sailor Moon inherited the light of the cauldron. (The Silver Crystal is Sailor Moon's concept) So it stands that the Galaxy Cauldron transcends spacetime.

Which would just imply that Sailor Moon (or rather, her power as the statement refers to its power, not the object itself) transcends space time, again, whatever 'transcend' means here.

Also, the fact that the Silver Crystal and all star seeds and sailor crystal come from the Cauldron, and were all one within the cauldron means that the Cauldron is a conceptual realm by definition. This means the the Cauldron is the progenitor of all metaphysical aspects of the verse.

None of which supports the idea that it transcends the very concept of space, time and dimensionality. You need EXPLICIT statements of these in most cases, not interpretive jargon. The HDE page you quoted below literally parrots this (or, rather, I'm parroting that page since I've actually read the standards) for you.

The HDE page also states this:

A simple example being a realm that is stated to lack space, time and physicality entirely, but is nonetheless shown as being "vaster" than physical reality in some way. Common imagery of this includes the universe as a small object encompassed in a wider backdrop.

The Cosmos seed is the seed for the entire cosmos and exists inside the cauldron as part of it. It is stated that the seeds in the cauldron are very small, or infinitesimal, basically drops of water in a ocean. The seed of the entire cosmology is but a infinitesimal part of the entire Cauldron. I believe this is tangible proof of transcendence that goes beyond simple statements.

Unfortunately, you fail to prove all three of the points above. A lack of space, time and physicality entirely. Just to show you an example, Usagi and her friends actually kept their physical bodies in the Cauldron (which Guardian Cosmos even remarks on). And while it is true that the Cosmos seed is the seed of the universe, it is in no way, shape or form the actual universe itself. The space that you're talking about must contain the ACTUAL universe within it (reduced to a small object, as stated) for this to be a qualification. The Cauldron exists within the universe, inside a galaxy.....

I just want to say that this rushed and random accusation that the scan I posted is about time travel is bogus. The mentions of past and future are references to the Silver Crystal of the past and the Silver Crystal of the future. The statements on transcending have nothing to do with time travel or timelines. In fact the, the very next panels talk about how if the two crystals touch it would create a paradox that would annihilate everything.

I don't see anything about a paradox on the page, just that the two touching would annihilate the world. It's just a generic world busting statement, nothing special. And largely irrelevant here. Also would you like to explain why an object that transcends time has a version of it in the future and another in the past.... aka at two different points in time simultaneously??

I am not arguing that silver crystal gets BDE, I am arguing for the Cauldron gets it, so entire argument is a waste of time.

The Cauldron can ONLY get it if the Crystal had it. Did you even read what Qawsedf said when he first looked at your thread? You didn't, so let me help you here.

This is what he says:
And the summary

• The Galaxy Cauldron predates all matter, abstract and concrete material, possibility and potential, and time and space.
• The Galaxy Cauldron transcends space and time and creates things and beings that also transcend space and time.
• The Galaxy Cauldron is composite and all things are one with in it. Beings cannot enter or access the cauldron without facing annihilation and homogenization.
• The Galaxy Cauldron has no definite size and contains endless possibilities.

Of these, all I only really see is the second justification. If it transcends time and space, along with lacking elements, you'd get BDE Type 2. But the sole usage of the word "transcends" comes from Silver Crystals transcending space-time on some level, but at the same time those tears come from the Cauldron, so it probably counts.

Do you get it now??? The only reason he initially agreed with your statement was because of your misinterpretation of the scan that talks about the transcendence of space time in the case of the silver crystal! He even stated that the ONLY instance of such a statement in your entire OP occurs in the Silver Crystal statement. That is its ONLY occurrence which is why he goes with only the second justification. If you are NOT arguing that the Silver Crystal gets BDE though, then your argument is null and void according to this statement right here from Qawsedf. To cement it further, this is what he said right after I point the exact same thing out:

"Objects that transcend time-space can also get BDE Type 1/2 for being above-dimensional structures."

So yes, Qawsedf's response directly suggests that you can only get BDE for the Cauldron if you are to argue BDE for the Silver Crystal itself, which since you've stated you're not (and yes, given your OP lacks such evidence, I know you're not so your protest is valid here, I just wanted to show you the context of this whole conversation you've somehow missed entirely and what that would mean), you must concede on this immediately.

But let's throw Hades a bone, and say he's right, people "handling" the silver crystal is anti-feat and therefore it's not BDE, and therefore it doesn't transcend spacetime. That would still be irrelevant. The Cauldron has evidence of transcendence according the wiki's guidelines by the very concept of the cosmology being a small part of it as stated above.

No it doesn't and I've already told you why that is, you need specific statements of transcending (concepts of) space, time and dimension. Says who you ask? The very same BDE page you pretend to follow but always, conveniently somehow leave this part out right here

As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar.

So yes, for the last time, you need STATEMENTS for this whether you want BDE for the Cauldron itself or the Silver Crystal. Since you denied the latter at all (and by extension any scaling off of that), you have nothing left to prove this. Now before you say "Wait why do I not get to use scaling/statements from that???" read the stuff above. If you wanna use that, then both according to the standards I highlighted and Qawsedf himself, you'd have to argue the object itself (the Silver Crystal) having BDE, and yes you'll have to deal with all the associated anti-feats with it as well, which you didn't bother debunking in your paragraph above for obvious reasons. You have already concede it's not BDE and that you aren't arguing for it.

?I first want to state that Sailor Moon doesn't nuke herself??

She literally almost kills herself here

Anyways. Again this requires some alternate reality where I am arguing that the Silver Crystal has BDE, which I'm not. It's just a straw man.

Concession accepted. No BDE for Silver Crystal means Qawsedf can now fully disagree since that was the only reason he was on the fence here about Low 1-A at all, and now good luck arguing it once you realize this and choose to do so, because it's gonna be hard. Really hard.

And my argument, "The Power the crystals have comes from the cauldron; lower beings can affect higher beings if they are using the power of the higher realm" is not circular logic. I don't even understand why that's being called circular reasoning. It's been a clearly repeated standard on this wiki that the power to transcend the lower realm cannot originate from the lower realm.

Because that presupposes that all Crystals would be Low 1-A, because the Cauldron is Low 1-A which ITSELF (once again) hinged on the Silver Crystal having BDE. Since I demonstrated that it doesn't have BDE, and in fact is just treated as a regular object, and that these "regular Crystals" can affect the supposed Low 1-A Cauldron, that this is an anti-feat for it which you CANNOT negate by claiming that the Crystals are Low 1-A as well. That's the whole context, why are you losing track of your own argument??

Also, the claim that the power of the crystals come from the cauldron is a new point and there's no evidence in the OP is just false. It's literally the first thing I say.

It's properties were gifted by the Cauldron.
I mean come on now.... just come on.... is it really worth being that pedantic....? Also just above, you said:

And my argument, "The Power the crystals have comes from the cauldron
I don't even know what to say here.... you forgot what you wrote just a line above.... I'm seriously questioning my choice of deciding to have debated you.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-galaxy-cauldron-high-1a-upgrade.181002/#:~:text=said. Let's begin:-,The Galaxy Cauldron is the literal heart and center of the,dimensions. Everything that has life, comes from a Star Seed.,-Beyond Dimensional Existence

Hades is leaving out the fact that Sailor Cosmos (Chibi Chibi) is depressed and ran away from the future because all her loved ones are dead and she is tired of the endless war with Chaos and Sailor Chaos. She wants Sailor Moon. She wants to create peace, however that peace comes with destroying both good and bad. Here is the full sequence:

I didn't, I only focused on the relevant parts (whether the series itself states that the destruction of the Cauldron would bring about immediate destruction of the universe or the cosmology) as needed by Qawsedf.

That future Sailor Cosmos wants to bring about, Sailor Moon describes it as "Ending everything" "dropping the scythe of death". It's an end to to death, war, and darkness, but it's also an end to life, love, and hope.

Hade's interpretation that destroying the cauldron would be a continued existence of galaxy, by extension the universe is just objectively wrong. It's very clear that the peace Chibi Chibi wants is nothingness.

It is NOT objectively wrong when the panel itself is saying this!!! Tell me, what does the phrase "For the future of the Galaxy" (clearly, the missing operative word here is "sake" for the context is conveyed nonetheless)??? What "Future" does a Galaxy that, according to your baseless assertion, will be destroyed immediately along with the universe even have? Why would she even talk as if the Galaxy even HAS a future when it's supposedly going to be destroyed instantly??? The only explanation for the existence of this claim is that there is NO immediate destruction, at all. Which was my point.

Hades is now flipflopping. He just argued that destroying the cauldron would be a continued existence, now here he argues a few lines later that the universe will end. He then switches his argument that, the universe will end but not immediately.

No, no, no. Hades is not flipflopping, Hades is NOT stating any of that. Please for the love of all that is holy, read what that poor bastard has written....

"Huh, so not only does it not suggest immediate cessation of the universe/the cosmology, it doesn't even suggest the immediate death of the galaxy itself because the operator "one day" here suggests the process/decay is eventual/overtime, exactly what Qawsedf stated WOULDN'T qualify."

Where do you see flipflopping?? Where?? My entire stance has been consistent on this, for the past 5+ pages, that the universe will NOT be IMMEDIATELY destroyed, not even the galaxy itself hence my assertion of its "continued existence" which ISN'T just my assertion but an actual fact supported by the very panels you've posted.



What does it say? That "One day", the galaxy won't really have a future. This DIRECTLY implies a continued existence of the galaxy, after the Cauldron is destroyed. The continued existence can be for a day, or for a billion years. That's irrelevant, the fact is that this scan suggests there'll be a continued existence. So I wasn't flipflopping or doing anything ridiculous that OP accuses me of, I stayed consistent.

Anyways, to address this anti-feat. Sailor Moon at this moment of time has not entered the Cauldron and does not know about the existence of the cosmos seed yet. And we know that the destruction of the seed, causes the immediate destruction of the form.

Right, but Sailor Cosmos does, and she's standing right in front of her. No corrections, nothing have been made. Not even a "If you do this, keep in mind the whole universe is getting nuked instantly". NOTHING. So yes the series itself DOES NOT back you.

It should be noted that this is all hypothetical and both Galaxia and Moon us indefinite words to describe what could happen. Only Cosmos is aware and she doesn't give any information about what will happen, other than she wants it to be done.

Which implies there's no other information to give, that the series doesn't support the claim you're trying to make. We need proof for positive claims, proof that doesn't exist here.

I don't know why this is listed as an anti-feat. If the cosmos is destroyed, a new cauldron will be reborn and start a new history.

Reborn where? And when will the cosmos be destroyed? You can't pick it apart like that, read the whole thing and then debate it. Horrible tactic.

Also I don't know why the focus on "this galaxy", if the cosmos is destroyed, the galaxy will be destroyed along with it.

Because the cosmos contains trillions upon trillions of galaxies, if the cosmos really will be destroyed instantly, why is that not as big of a concern? Why is there no such statement asserting the destruction of the entire cosmos as opposed to merely "this galaxy" (which Usagi also confirms in her One Day statement too btw, even though she should at least know that the Cauldron supposedly creates stars for more than just this galaxy)? Extraordinary claims require equally extraordinary evidence, evidence that you haven't presented because you're too busy trying to convince me and others of how "this galaxy" can be extrapolated to mean the entire universe via a sheer inference of events while having no actual evidence. That is not how this works.

This is just bad logic. Also, the milky way is the galaxy where the characters live and where the cauldron is; it's not surprising that the cast focuses on their home. When a hurricane destroys a town, someone lamenting the destruction of their house doesn't suggest that only their house will be destroyed.

Yeah, but if the entire planet is about to be destroyed, I myself along with (I hope at least) everyone else would go "Oh shit our whole planet is getting nuked" instead of "Ah crud my backyard's gonna be ruined!" You expect me to believe that an event as significant and unprecedented as the entire destruction/cessation of the entire universe is not even worth the mention and can simply be extrapolated from a text that in no way implies that??? That is not how debates work! Oh and by the way most people would lament the destruction of the town, because coincidentally that is a useful piece of information that demonstrates the scale of the hurricane and how much potential destruction it can or has caused. Horrible analogy number 999999.

"Even if this galaxy is destroyed" is neither evidence of delayed or instant destruction. In both scenarios the galaxy will be destroyed.

Never said it was, the "one day" statement is though. The statement that wasn't countered nor offered more context on by Sailor Cosmos standing right there by the way. That statement was just used to prove the galactic scale of destruction, read my argument properly.

As shown in the sequence of scans above, after talking about this galaxy, they start talking about the universe. Hades conveniently leaves this part out. We go from talking about the future of the galaxy to talking about the distant future of the entire universe.

LMFAOOOOOO. Alright, thank you! You concede on the instant destruction of the universe finally. If the Cauldron is destroyed and people are talking about the distant future of the universe, you understand what that means don't you? And if it in the case of not destroying the Cauldron, why bring it up? It'd be irrelevant. So yeah I have no idea what you were tryna do with this. I left nothing out, I addressed everything relevant.

Also here's a bonus:



Chaos says he'll take the cauldron's place as ruler of the entire cosmos. Why would the cauldron be called the ruler of the entire cosmos if its scope is only the galaxy.

Irrelevant. That doesn't prove anything in the way of immediate destruction of the universe.

The Galaxy Cauldron is called a galactic center because it's at the center of galaxy.

Also, let's take this to its logical conclusion. Let's assume Hades is right, and the universe will die a slow death. The galaxy cauldron won't come back until after the galaxy is destroyed per Galaxia. It will take at least 100 trillion years for the last stars in our galaxy to finally die. By that time, there will be no galaxies left in our universe. So Hades's interpretation that a new galaxy cauldron will be born in another galaxy doesn't work. He can argue the destruction is not immediate (which i have debunked) but he can't also argue that a galaxy cauldron will be born in another galaxy at the same time.

Yeah, no. A purely scientific explanation of this, not a sound argument. Galaxia doesn't say "Even if every Red Dwarf star in the galaxy that takes trillions of years to exhaust its hydrogen is destroyed, a new Cauldron will pop up anyway". No, she just says that even if this galaxy is destroyed (and, presumably, the Cauldron) a new Cauldron will spring up somewhere else. That is an utter strawman.

This is just silly and pedantic. If cut off my arm and regenerate it, the arm I regenerated is new. I also said "regenerate or reborn".

No it's called context, and its specifically important to highlight because you were tryna pass it off as "regeneration" without any actual explanation, statement or mechanic behind it. You know, I'm noticing an incredibly tendency from you, the belief that you can get almost anything passed/accepted if you argue it hard enough and just interpret it the right way while lacking explicit evidence. That's not how the site works, you need explicit evidence for most claims. Nothing here suggests the Cauldron regenerates, just that a new one will pop up somewhere. New usually implies not the old one.

First of all. That's not Sailor Cosmos. That's queen serenity. Also what exactly is Hades even arguing here?

That Guardian Cosmos (that little weird spirit girl) implies that she had met Sailor Cosmos once. Not really relevant to the point here (since Sailor Cosmos should know everything about the Cauldron anyway even if she never met Guardian Cosmos) but still something I thought was worthwhile adding just to remove any doubts.

Cosmos is trying to convince sailor moon to destroy the cauldron, why would she take time to describe what's going to happen after its destroyed?

Uh.... because it's crucial information....? Are you seriously asking this???? You're asking someone to take what would be an almost unprecedented step in all of history and you're saying it's not crucial or irrelevant to giving them the complete information over what will happen, even AFTER she goes on the whole tirade of how this will cease all war, pain, suffering, etc? You're saying that Usagi being told and asked to accept the consequences of her action won't be relevant???? This is seriously nonsense.

Her goal is to convince Sailor Moon to destroy the cauldron. As stated before, she's in hopeless state and wants to bring about peace by ending everything and having nothingness.

Right, she's a depressed little emo teen, I got that. Doesn't change anything above that I said.

As posted above, the conversation flip flops between galactic and universal. (spoiler alert, the galaxy is apart of the universe).

Spoiler alert, the destruction of the entire universe is an even bigger threat and even more relevant (if it's going to happen) to convey the sheer scale and the consequences of the action being taken. In fact, given the whole context of this sequence, it would actually be the MOST appropriate to state this as well with everything yet it wasn't!

Also the bolded is untrue. None of Cosmos's statements show that the destruction would be over time.

No, Usagi's statement (One day) implies that, and Sailor Cosmos basically doesn't say anything to correct it or to go "No dude, if you take this step, we're all getting nuked right here". Read, please.

And since Hades trusts Sailor Cosmos's words so much, here is her saying the Cauldron can't be destroyed.

Right, and yet her entire plan here, everything up until now so far, was to convince Usagi to destroy it. Not only that but Galaxia herself talks about (albeit indirectly) its destruction. So which is it? Also the context of this panel is important, it implies that it isn't so much that it's impossible to destroy the Cauldron (if it was, Cosmos is an idiot basically and Galaxia is stupid) but rather something that must not/should not/ought not to be destroyed because it is the source of all living things (and otherwise) in the verse. It's more as something you shouldn't do as opposed to something that's impossible (which Cosmos' mission to convince Usagi and Galaxia's statement prove anyway).

If we want to play the literal and pedantic game: "it's because of this place that we continue living" if you destroy the cauldron, things will stop living since, their life is dependent on the cauldron. Stars and planets etc. are also alive in sailor moon. If the cauldron is destroyed, they will stop living. That sounds immediate to me.

Oh? But even Usagi knows this and yet the galaxy will only "one day" (someday in some translations) no longer have a future (which, again, Cosmos doesn't disagree with or correct when she would if it was necessary).

The destruction of the Galaxy Cauldron never happens, and we have no idea what that would look like and how that would play. The only facts we do know for certain, is that the cosmos seed is within the cauldron, and destruction of the seed causes the form to immediately disappear across the entire timeline.

Right, too bad this is just an inference now (the cosmos seed destruction part) because Cosmos simply doesn't state this anywhere nor doe she inform Usagi of this at any point nor does she correct her. She herself states that this is "For the future of the galaxy' so yeah, this claim here, is useless.

Notice that my argument was that the Cosmos Seed is inside the cauldron, and also one with the cauldron is never addressed. Destruction of the seeds, result in the immediate destruction of the forms. Destroying the Cosmos Seed will immediately destroy the Cosmos. Hades doesn't address this at all in his summary.

Even if I humor this, your argument still falls flat. Go back to what Qawsedf stated, if the destruction of the Cauldron itself doesn't cause the immediate destruction of the cosmos, then this argument is totally bunk. In other words, the destruction of the universe (if it were to happen) wouldn't be due to the Cauldron, but due to a specific seed that it currently contains. This almost makes the seed more fundamental than the Cauldron, and if you recall you told him exactly that the Cauldron is more foundational than the Cosmos seed, to which he simply replied with that the destruction of the Cauldron is what should result in the destruction of the universe since you're arguing the rating for the Cauldron, not the Cosmos seed. Hope that cleared it up.

Also his idea that the cauldron is not fundamental to existence is absurd. How can something that birthed the cosmos, and all its concepts not be fundamental to the cosmology?

Considering its destruction would only destroy the galaxy over time, stated and implied multiple times in the series itself, may you're just interpreting and seeing it wrong. Naoko Takeuchi wasn't sitting there going "Hmmm... so if the Cauldron birthed the cosmos, then it's destruction should immediately end it too". Writers and authors don't think like us powerscalers, least of all writers that are none for their preference for flowery text. I don't know what else to tell you other than, that's just how it is sometimes. Also just to clarify, I didn't say it isn't fundamental, just that it isn't as fundamental as you believe it to be, that its destruction leads to the immediate cessation of the entire universe or cosmology, since that isn't supported by scans at all.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree about that both sides of the argument here should summarise their points into a respectice single post. After that I can ping other knowledgeable members than just Qawsedf234 alone.

Also, thanks to him for helping out, and another encouragement to everybody here to make an effort to be nice and polite to each other.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry. I just noticed that MeiouHades provided a summary above.

What about the other side?

 

[TiltedFN]

From what i'm looking at. The destruction of the cosmos seed or the galaxy cauldron leading to the overtime destruction of the galaxy or universe cant even be called a chain reaction. There is absolutely no immediate destruction even implied anywhere which unanimous unironically proved himself.

This has gone on for 6 pages and still not a single proof of true transcendence statements that grant low 1-A. Raw scans were provided and translated that disproved that as well. And to be quite frank, MeiouHades has typed out well written responses to each and every argument. But wasnt met with the same energy unfortunately. Qaw asked to give summaries, Hades did, but unanimous ignored this and replied to hades comment for what reason??

 

[Qawsedf234]

Snip

The point of a summary is to stop debating. The OP has the right of a final say for their thread, but going back and forth more doesn't solve the initial issue of the thread having bloat.

What about the other side?

It was done here (probably)

unanimous ignored this and replied to hades comment for what reason??

I figured that was unaimous' summary. They're saying the OP is still correct and the rebuttals are flawed. Its not the recommended way to do a summary but you can do it that way I guess

 

[Phoenks]

Full disclosure, I haven't read this thread. I will only be commenting on the OP because I'm extremely, extremely confused by this. I'll just say all my issues in numbers.

---

Low 1-A​

Number one, "predating" does not mean "transcending." Just because something is the source of another thing and thus "predates" it, does not mean that the source is inherently transcendent of that thing. You wouldn't say the Big Bang is Low 1-A because it is the source of space-time as we know it.

Number two, "transcending" as it is used in scans like these seems incredibly hyperbolic or representative of an encompassing kind of power rather than one that is ontologically above space-time. Especially when paired with the statement right after where it says "it spread across the galaxy." Another definition of transcend is to "Extend across" or "encompass." I don't see these statements as being anywhere near enough for Low 1-A. Not even enough for Low 1-C, even.

Number three, this scan is being used to say "dimensions" have a seed? Where? I see nothing that constitutes that notion.

Number four, having no "concept of distance" is not BD2. Lacking space is not the same as transcending it (the BDE page explains this quite thoroughly), thus even if the Cauldron is the source of such a realm, it means little when talking about the verse's legibility for Low 1-A or BD2.

All in all, based on the scans and explanations provided, I see no reason for the Cauldron being tiered above Low 2-C, or whatever amount of universes Sailor Moon is already accepted to contain.

---

High 1-A+​

The Galaxy Cauldron is the framework for all logically possible worlds in Sailor Moon. As stated above, it is the source of all existence, all beings, all possibility, potential, destinies, and histories. It is the progenitor of all things: space, time, the very powers and concepts that govern reality. It is the system that governs the rise and falls of stars.

There are no statements here supporting the fact that the Cauldron has all logical possibilities.

Only that it contains "possibilities" and "potential," and even those terms are incredibly vague, if not entirely pointless.

Under Neoplatonism, the Galaxy Cauldron would be akin to the One or the emanation of the One. In Neoplatonism, the One is the ultimate source of all that exists. Everything in existence flows outward from the One through a process of emanation. This emanation process is not creation from nothing but rather a natural unfolding of the One into multiple levels of existence, where each emanation is a reflection of the One's essence.

Under what basis are you assuming the Galaxy Cauldron takes on the philosophy of Neoplatonism. There's no statement of the Cauldron even being this all-encompassing one or anything. Only that it is a preeminent source of things.

At this point in the OP, I was beginning to think you were just making stuff up because I saw no basis for any of it.

Just as the One in Neoplatonism, the Galaxy Cauldron is wholly independent and uncaused, the absolute origin point from which all things emanate from. Every form of existence, every variation, and every expression of power is simply an extension or unfolding of its primordial waters. It has no external progenitor, no higher source, it is the only source. Though it is stated that the Cauldron can be destroyed, this does not contradict its absoluteness. If it were to be destroyed, a new Cauldron would inevitably appear, not by intervention or design, but as a spontaneous restitution that arises from the very nature of its reality. This reflects that the Cauldron is the one true constant, the metaphysical ground from which even continuity and discontinuity spring from. Importantly, its destruction is never brought about by something outside itself; all who wield the power to threaten it, such as Sailor Moon and Chaos, inherit their strength from the Cauldron. Its capacity for self-negation and self-restoration are not anomalies, but intrinsic to its nature. In encompassing both existence and its opposite, the Cauldron contains not just all beings, but is total framework of possibility itself.

How does the fact that it can be destroyed not contradict its absoluteness? Wtf?

Also, why is this paragraph just you making things up that aren't actually sourced by anything once again? Literally nothing is supporting this "one true constant" idea you are proposing. It clearly isn't even a constant if it can be remade and destroyed at will.

It is stated that the Millennium Monarchs only have had one child. However, in an alternate dimension, Usagi has two children. We have two worlds, two logical possibilities, but one world is a nominal impossibility for the other. This shows the Cauldron is not beholden to the rules of reality of separate worlds. In fact, the cauldron creates worlds with their own rules. Not surprising for a system that creates both destiny and celestial history.

These aren't logical possibilities. This is possible in Many Worlds Theory (The basic possibility multiverse), where different timelines branch out from different actions.

The Monarch statement isn't even presented in a way that makes it seem like this is some logical constant of the world. It just says "I heard they only have one child."

---

I'm ngl, I'm genuinely kinda speechless after this. Might be one of the most "in-over-its-head" upgrade CRTs of all time.

Strongly, vehemently disagree.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

dy requested that such comments not be made. They only clutter the thread.

Full disclosure, I haven't read this thread. I will only be commenting on the OP because I'm extremely, extremely confused by this. I'll just say all my issues in numbers.

---

Low 1-A​

Number one, "predating" does not mean "transcending." Just because something is the source of another thing and thus "predates" it, does not mean that the source is inherently transcendent of that thing. You wouldn't say the Big Bang is Low 1-A because it is the source of space-time as we know it.

Number two, "transcending" as it is used in scans like these seems incredibly hyperbolic or representative of an encompassing kind of power rather than one that is ontologically above space-time. Especially when paired with the statement right after where it says "it spread across the galaxy." Another definition of transcend is to "Extend across" or "encompass." I don't see these statements as being anywhere near enough for Low 1-A. Not even enough for Low 1-C, even.

Number three, this scan is being used to say "dimensions" have a seed? Where? I see nothing that constitutes that notion.

Number four, having no "concept of distance" is not BD2. Lacking space is not the same as transcending it (the BDE page explains this quite thoroughly), thus even if the Cauldron is the source of such a realm, it means little when talking about the verse's legibility for Low 1-A or BD2.

All in all, based on the scans and explanations provided, I see no reason for the Cauldron being tiered above Low 2-C, or whatever amount of universes Sailor Moon is already accepted to contain.

---

Heavily agree. Especially when the cauldron is very heavily implied that everything will continue to exist even if it's destroyed. Just that things will eventually die off. If it was actually both the source and fundamental basis of everything, rather than something where they just originate, all things would immediately cease to be alongside it.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Please give me time to reply to Phoenks. Gathering some stuff thanks.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Unfortunately, you fail to prove all three of the points above. A lack of space, time and physicality entirely. Just to show you an example, Usagi and her friends actually kept their physical bodies in the Cauldron (which Guardian Cosmos even remarks on). And while it is true that the Cosmos seed is the seed of the universe, it is in no way, shape or form the actual universe itself. The space that you're talking about must contain the ACTUAL universe within it (reduced to a small object, as stated) for this to be a qualification. The Cauldron exists within the universe, inside a galaxy.....

Not sure where you got this from, because their "bodies" inside the Cauldron are an extension of their Star Seed (hence why it's their Perfect/Complete Form). They're not physical.

Should also be noted that the wiki already accepts this as such.

 

[MeiouHades]

Not sure where you got this from, because their "bodies" inside the Cauldron are an extension of their Star Seed (hence why it's their Perfect/Complete Form). They're not physical.

Should also be noted that the wiki already accepts this as such.

Not really relevant, since you need to not only lack spatiality, temporality and dimensionality but exceed/transcend their concept to even begin arguing for it, all of which are things the Cauldron sorely lacks as stated above by myself and @Phoenks

EDIT: Just saw @Qawsedf234's comment, I guess I can stop the back and forth here

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Irrelevant. That doesn't prove anything in the way of immediate destruction of the universe.

Especially when the cauldron is very heavily implied that everything will continue to exist even if it's destroyed. Just that things will eventually die off. If it was actually both the source and fundamental basis of everything, rather than something where they just originate, all things would immediately cease to be alongside it.

From what i'm looking at. The destruction of the cosmos seed or the galaxy cauldron leading to the overtime destruction of the galaxy or universe cant even be called a chain reaction. There is absolutely no immediate destruction even implied anywhere which unanimous unironically proved himself.

It seems like all three of you are ignoring a direct statement from Cosmos
"It's because this place exists that we continue living"
This is a direct, empirical statement from Cosmos who is the most knowledge character in the entire series, especially when it comes to the Cauldron. Hades himself acknowledged that she knows exactly what she's talking about. Her statement directly implies that if the cauldron ceases to exist, nothing will continue to live ("It's BECAUSE this place that we CONTINUE living").
So this idea that if the cauldron is destroyed, the universe will continue to live on for a bit is essentially based on nothing substantial.
Think of it this way: If things don't die immediately (after Cauldron is compromised), then that means it's still continuing to live, and that contradicts Cosmos's direct statement.

Also keep in mind, that the idea that universe will survive without the Cauldron for some time, is based on hypothetical, unproven statements from Galaxia and Sailor Moon vs. Sailor Cosmos' very specific statement.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

It seems like all three of you are ignoring a direct statement from Cosmos
"It's because this place exists that we continue living"
This is a direct, empirical statement from Cosmos who is the most knowledge character in the entire series, especially when it comes to the Cauldron. Hades himself acknowledged that she knows exactly what she's talking about. Her statement directly implies that if the cauldron ceases to exist, nothing will continue to live ("It's BECAUSE this place that we CONTINUE living").
So this idea that if the cauldron is destroyed, the universe will continue to live on for a bit is essentially based on nothing substantial.
Think of it this way: If things don't die immediately (after Cauldron is compromised), then that means it's still continuing to live, and that contradicts Cosmos's direct statement.

Also keep in mind, that the idea that universe will survive without the Cauldron for some time, is based on hypothetical, unproven statements from Galaxia and Sailor Moon vs. Sailor Cosmos' very specific statement.

It's just saying that sustained life isn't possible without it because it'll all die out eventually...? It's saying nothing about immediate destruction of anything. Not the galaxy, not the universe.

 

[AsterReal]

It's just saying that sustained life isn't possible without it because it'll all die out eventually...? It's saying nothing about immediate destruction about anything. Not the galaxy, not the universe.

Sorry but no, Sailor Cosmos says no such thing. It literally says, "It is because this place exists that we can continue to live." It says nothing of what you claim. The dialogue is quite clear.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

It's just saying that sustained (?) life isn't possible without it because it'll all die out eventually (??)...? It's saying nothing about immediate destruction of anything. Not the galaxy, not the universe.

Yeah you're just putting extra words in it that are never written, you are confusing yourself.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Sorry but no, Sailor Cosmos says no such thing. It literally says, "It is because this place exists that we can continue to live." It says nothing of what you claim. The dialogue is quite clear.

Except with other scans it clarifies that things will eventually cease. So there is no "sorry but no". It doesn't contradict anything that Galaxia and Sailor Moon said unless you keep a very narrow and limited viewpoint and dont connect context clues.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Yeah you're just putting extra words in it that are never written, you are confusing yourself.

it's called interpretation bud.

 

[AsterReal]

Except with other scans it clarifies that things will eventually cease. So there is no "sorry but no". It doesn't contradict anything that Galaxia and Sailor Moon said unless you keep a very narrow and limited viewpoint.

Hades affirms that Sailor Cosmos is right in what she says and she contradicted Galaxia and Usagi who spoke hypothetically. I don't think the one with "limited" understanding is me and to say that to someone at least to me, it sounds like you are deliberately using an insult.