Summary Time:
Alright, so this is gonna serve as full-on summary to encompass the essence of almost everything that I've argued in the thread. This will include all arguments I've presented including and especially relating to the standards of BDE2/Low 1-A, using @Qawsedf234's responses as well which clarify the standards even more than the standard page does otherwise. Let us begin:
Why there is no Low 1-A/BDE Type 2 (No Conceptual Transcendence?):
Alright, so this is gonna serve as full-on summary to encompass the essence of almost everything that I've argued in the thread. This will include all arguments I've
presented including and especially relating to the standards of BDE2/Low 1-A, using @Qawsedf234's responses as well which clarify the standards even more than the standard page does otherwise. Let us begin:
Let us first start by describing what is needed in order for one to achieve Low 1-A. According to the BDE Type 2 page itself:
"Through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence."
As in, it's not enough to just lack space or time, one must prove that it ontologically surpasses or transcends them. It also states this however:
"As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar. "
Now, one might think that this gives anyone and their mothers with a "transcending space time/dimensions" statement a free pass to Low 1-A. But, that is not the case. Here @Qawsedf234 makes a VERY important and key distinction (that should honestly be on the page itself IMO). Here's what their message says, not once, but twice:
"If it's just a generic "Above time and space" sure, but if they're conceptually above it, then it would count. Though going through the thread, I'm not entirely sure if the OP proved that point yet."
"If it's above a timeline or time travel, that's not the same as conceptual transcendence."
Now, one might ask if there exists such a statement in the series at all to support this, and well, the answer is no. One of our own site translators looked at the scan that OP themselves have used to apparently prove transcendence and well...
here is what they had to say 'bout it:
"yeah nothing there says anything about it as a concept. unless I'm blind as hell."
So.... no conceptual transcendence here unless they're blind, a really strong statement indeed.
Oh but it goes further than this. I, as an opposition to this thread, tried to tell the OP (who, by the way, is aware of this translation since they're present in that translation thread) directly that this is what they need. And well....
this is what they have to say. Left a bad taste in my mouth.
To add insult to injury, that statement of transcending time and space? That's also of dubious nature at best, because of this
scan right here.
Now why's this so important. Well, two reasons actually. First is because of this little part (未来と過去) which basically translate to "The future and the past". The context here seems to be time travel, because the two silver crystals there are the past and future crystals. What makes it worse though, and the key to disproving any "transcendence" of space-time of the Silver Crystal, is the next statement. It says (何を時空を越えたパワーに勝てるかな) which roughly translates to, in English, as "What can beat a power that transcends time and space"?
Notice the distinction here? The POWER of the Silver crystal may transcend time and space (whatever that means here), the object itself however isn't really stated to, anywhere, and I don't think "power that transcends space-time" are given any tiering per our standards currently
Okay, so conceptual transcendence is out of the question here. In fact, Qawsedf himself states that he hasn't seen OP even argue that anywhere, so not only is it a crucial part of achieving BDE Type 2, the OP doesn't even have any evidence or arguments for it as would be requisite.
So, one of the main (and only, in this case) methods of arguing BDE Type 2/Low 1-A via a complete, Ontological surpassing/transcendence of all of space and time is simply not even present in this thread.... so I'm pretty sure it's easy to see that it shouldn't be granted that tier. But, there is more....
The Anti-Feats:
Now, here comes the time for anti-feats. Let's assume that we do grant is Low 1-A for whatever reason. We will now look at some of the problems with the Cauldron (or any associated objects, which as you'll see is an important part of this section) having this rating and why it cannot achieve it even if it DID meet all of the above requisites to warrant the tier.
Okay, so let's first define what the anti-feats for this would even be. Thankfully,
@Qawsedf234 once again specified that exactly so we needn't speculate anything.
Here is what they state about anti-feats:
"Objects that transcend time-space can also get BDE Type 1/2 for being above-dimensional structures. You do run into anti-feats, however, as unless you say everyone who handles those objects are also Low 1-A/1-A then they shouldn't be interactable by lower dimensional beings."
Okay, so they state that anyone who interacts or handles those objects
must also be Low 1-A/1-A for this to work. Now you might be wondering why Qawsedf is talking about an object when we're talking about the Cauldron. Well, this is Qawsedf's first
message in the thread, in it, he states this specifically:
"But the sole usage of the word "transcends" comes from Silver Crystals transcending space-time on some level"
So basically Qawsedf is referring to the Silver crystal when he says "
Objects that transcend time-space can also get BDE Type 1/2 for being above-dimensional structures" this. So, is the Silver Crystal BDE Type 2/Low 1-A/1-A then?
Nope. And because of this very equivalence, I can simply post these scans (
one,
two and
three) that show something quite interesting. Here you can see normal, lower dimensional beings, non-Low 1-A/1-A beings (which, yes, the OP didn't even put in their argument as being Low 1-A or 1-A so it's not circular reasoning to say this, they also can't be Low 1-A at this point in the story anyway) handling the supposed "Object with BDE Type 1/Type 2" like it's some cheap toy. The exact thing
@Qawsedf234 said SHOULD NOT have happened.
Okay, that's a pretty big blow. What else? Well, it actually goes even further beyond (HAH!). Let's talk about the the Cauldron itself for a moment. Here's some funny scans (
one,
two,
three,
four,
five,
six and
another one). So, for those that don't know, what's basically happening here is that Sailor Moon is calling upon not only the Silver crystal, but ALL Sailor crystals in order to use them to stop Chaos who has merged with the Cauldron. In short, her goal is to basically affect the Cauldron itself (by nuking herself too). Now, why's this so important?
Well, as we've already established just above, these crystals are NOT Low 1-A objects themselves, so them interacting with a supposedly Low 1-A realm (which itself is dependent on them being Low 1-A in the first place, according to Qawsedf, so for OP to argue this would actually be circular reasoning) shouldn't happen. After all, if the Silver Crystal (the most powerful among the Sailor crystals) can be interacted by almost anyone like it's a toy, what can we say about other Sailor crystals then? In fact, I DID bring this up to the OP, and
this is what they had to say about it:
"The power the crystals have comes from the cauldron, lower beings can affect higher beings if they are using the power of the higher realm"
And.... just as we feared, this is exactly what OP argues. Circular logic. But it's worse here, because unlke what Qawsedf states about the Silver crystal having BDE, the OP doesn't even mention this premise ONCE. So to argue this entirely new point now that has not a shred of evidence in the original post is just a horrible strategy especially after they've been ignoring the actual point of providing proof for conceptual transcendence of the Silver crystal.
Okay, so now we're finally done right? We've proven that the OP does not follow the most important standards for the rating and we've shown that their scaling has anti-feats, so are we done? WRONG! Actually, there's more to the anti-feats than this, and this is IMO the most important anti-feat of all. Let's examine.
So, for the Cauldron to even remotely qualify for any higher tier, it must at least be proven that such a structure is absolutely foundational to the existence of reality/cosmology, that, without which, an immediate collapse would follow. This isn't me stating it, this is what
@Qawsedf234 has said
here, verbatim:
"If the cauldron is removed and the universes cease to exist when that happens, I think a higher tier is warranted. If the cauldron being destroyed doesn't result in the universe collapsing instantly, but it decays until a new one is formed that blows a hole through one of the main supporting items of the suggested tier."
Okay, so basically if we can prove that the destruction of the Cauldron won't immediately cease the existence of all reality (in this case, the entire cosmology, or at least the universe itself) then we basically have the final nail in the coffin, the final anti-feat to put this to rest. And, unsurprisingly, we do have that information via some very key scans. Here's the
first scan. In here, Chibi Chibi (who is basically Sailor Cosmos, a distant future version of Sailor Moon who returned to the past) tells current Usagi to destroy the Galaxy Cauldron (that Sailor Chaos merged with) "For the future of the galaxy". Now, to everyone reading this, does "for the future of the galaxy" even remotely sound like immediate cosmological destruction to any of you? To me, personally, I think it's suugesting the exact opposite, it seems to suggest the continued existence of the galaxy and by extension the universe and the rest of the cosmology.
Alright, that's a strong blow. But wait, didn't Usagi state that the galaxy will be destroyed anyway? Well.... sort of but not really. Here's what she says in the
second scan. She says, and I quote, "Then
one day, the galaxy really won't have a future!!".... Huh, so not only does it not suggest immediate cessation of the universe/the cosmology, it doesn't even suggest the immediate death of the galaxy itself because the operator "one day" here suggests the process/decay is eventual/overtime, exactly what Qawsedf stated WOULDN'T qualify.
And to hammer this point home, the idea that the entire cosmology would instantly cease to exist is not only not supported in the
third and
fourth scans, she states the following "But even if
THIS galaxy is destroyed.... a new Cauldron is sure to spring into existence somewhere else"
Now let's deconstruct this statement a bit. The first part talks about, clearly, THIS galaxy (the one they're in) specifically. So, even here, there's no mention of instant cosmological collapse of cessation anywhere. The part about "ending everything", don't confuse it for that. The statement "end everything" and all similar ones require some context, and the context here does this, that is, THIS Galaxy. The second part of the statement is equally as important, following the first. So, it states that even if this galaxy is destroyed, a NEW Cauldron (the galactic center, mind you) will pop into existence elsewhere. Now, because the focus is on THIS galaxy, and because there is NO mention of instant universal/cosmological collapse anywhere here (and well.... because the Galaxy Cauldron is LITERALLY described as the galactic center) I think the implication is VERY clear that this is talking about a new Cauldron popping up in another galaxy. Also a little side note; don't confuse this for the Cauldron "regenerating", this is something the
OP made up earlier with no scan suggesting any such mechanic. It'll be a NEW Cauldron, and there's no mention of regeneration, as per the scans.
Okay but what about the Cosmos seed??? Surely destroying that is gonna destroy the universe right....? And surely Usagi knows nothing of that! Well, one small problem. Sailor Cosmos is actually implied to have met the Guardian Cosmos (the one guarding the Cosmos seed in the Cauldron) as per
this scan when she was in the Cauldron. So surely, she would know of the existence of the Cosmos seed and.... even she says NOTHING about complete universal/cosmological destruction. All her statements, every single one, either about destruction or preserving, has been not on a universal/cosmological scale but on a galactic scale, and that too over time as I showed.
Alright, we've finally reached the end here. We've handled everything, explained everything and proven all that was necessary. Just to recap, here's what we did.
1.) We've proven that the transcendence of space-time does not occur on a conceptual level, that is to say, neither the Cauldron nor the Crystals that it forms are stated or shown to be Ontologically superior to lower forms of reality. Not only that, but their statements of transcendence of space-time are used in entirely different contexts, and they lack the statements of utterly exceeding/surpassing dimensions or transcending the concept of dimensionality altogether. All of which, according to the BDE page and Qawsedf himself, are what's needed to qualify for said tiers. I've also shown that the transcendence statement refers not to the Silver Crystal itself but merely its power which doesn't really mean much here, nor do such statements qualify for BDE generally. It's also kind of hard to see what transcending time and space would even mean here, for the Crystal, given that there are TWO of them. One from the past, the other from the future. This isn't really indicative of an object that transcended time.
2.) We've shown anti-feats regarding the transcendence of the Silver Crystal such as them being handled and interacted with by being of lower dimensions or non-Low1-A/1-A beings. We've also shown that that these Crystals, which are of the same nature as the silver Crystals, can be used to interact with the Cauldron. In short, Crystals that can be handled by non-Low1-A/1-A beings can interact with or affect the Cauldron.
3.) And lastly we have, without a shadow of a doubt, proven that the destruction of the Cauldron will not result in instant universal or cosmological collapse, not even instant galactic destruction at that, implying that the Cauldron is not as fundamental to existence so as to warrant the rating OP proposed, for which we used the additional evidence that anothe Cauldron will just pop up (not regenerate) in some other galaxy once THIS one dies out.
And with this, we've finally put to rest any and all notions of Low 1-A Sailor Moon/Cauldron. That's all, thank you all for reading.
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