The Galaxy Cauldron: High 1A+ Upgrade

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Blog Version for ease of use

Before we start, allow me to instill some basic knowledge to prevent confusion:

1. In Sailor Moon, the term "Star" is used both literally and metaphorically. Literally, it refers to actual stars in space. Metaphorically, it can refer to other celestial bodies such as planets or moons, as well as people and individuals. Since everything in the verse originates from a Star Seed, you can essentially refer to anything as a “Star.”

2. While the term "Galaxy" is used in the text, the scope of the Galaxy Cauldron extends beyond just the galaxy to encompass the entire cosmology.
(As evidence: is Pharaoh 90 a being from an alternate universe which is a separate space-time, originated in the Galaxy cauldron).

With that said. Let's begin:

The Galaxy Cauldron is the literal heart and center of the entire Sailor Moon Cosmology. It is a structure at the center of the galaxy which produces Star Seeds and Sailor Crystals which become everything in the verse. Living beings, Celestial objects, power, light, and even universes and alternate worlds*. Everything that has life, comes from a Star Seed.

*The Tau Star System is an alternate dimension. The Thyron Crystal is the crystal that gave life to the dimension. The Thyron crystal is running out of power and therefore the dimension is dying and collapsing in on its self, so the death busters, the villains of the story, want to find a new world. The scan I provided, states that the Thyron has the same power as the Silver Crystal, therefore it is from the Cauldron. For further context, this statement is consistent as in another scene where the star seeds of cats, Luna, Artemis, and Diana are stated to have the same power and shine as the Sailor Crystals similar to how the Thyron crystal is compared to the Silver Crystal.

Beyond Dimensional Existence (Type 2)​

The standard for BDE Type 2 are as follows:

"Through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence.

As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar. However, if they are applied to realms that can be inferred to surpass the very composition of the lower reality (e.g. Realms that are, themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains, or often, voids of nothingness), then 1-A is the most appropriate rating for them."

The Galaxy Cauldron is more than just a galactic center. It is a structure that creates Star Seeds. Star Seeds are the fundamental metaphysical aspect that governs the Sailor Moon Verse. All things are derived or given form from Star Seeds. As Star Seeds give form to celestial objects, this means that the Cauldron predates matter. All living beings, including non-physical being (souls, ghosts, gods, beings made of shadow, and will) are derived from star seeds meaning the Cauldron also predates non-physical material. Being the source of Star Seeds, the Cauldron is a metaphysical, conceptual realm akin to the Platonic World of Forms. The series itself even describes the physical forms that are derived from star seeds as "fleeting shadows" of the Star Seed.

Star Seeds are more than Physical or Non Physical Phenomena. The cosmos itself has a seed. Individual universes also have a seed. Chronos the God of Time is also living being and would be derived from the Cauldron. This means that the Cauldron predates space and time. It would also predate the Corridor of Space-Time which has no concept of distance or direction, without any flow of Time. The Cauldron also created the Silver Crystal, a Sailor Crystal, stated to transcend space and time, be utterly unhindered by the layers of time, cut through space and time, and again stated to transcend space and time. It also created the Dark Crystal which can warp all of spacetime. The Cauldron is not only the source of Space, Time, and Dimensions, but it also transcends them.

The Cauldron is stated to be where everything is born and everything passes away. It is also stated where everything started as one. This would mean the Cauldron is composite and not made of individual parts. It is described as primordial sea where that individual dissolves into.

Upon touching the Cauldron, beings are erased. Not only are they destroyed, but they are erased across history and everything dependent on them is erased as well. This also affects beings with Acausality. Chibiusa, who is from the future, was not affected by her father being killed in the past. She was however affected by her father being erased by the Galaxy Cauldron. In fact, Mamoru's future self was immediately not erased or destroyed by his past self's death. This means, that beings cannot exist anywhere in creation, as well as within the Cauldron at the same time. The Cauldron is unreachable to beings in the "outer realm' they must first undergo annihilation and homogenization.

To express this acausal nature even further, Death Phantom is a being that was defeated and destroyed by Sailor Moon in the future. He appears in the cauldron during the past, when Sailor Moon reaches it in her timeline. This shows that the Cauldron is not beholden to the flow of events of causality. Everything that is inside of the Cauldron does not exist in any part of reality, past, present or future.

Despite being depicted a galactic center. The Cauldron has no definite size. Within Sagittarius Alpha Star, there is a graveyard where an endless procession of butterflies representing the dying flames of stars goes on forever . These butterflies emerge from the graves in the graveyard. Because there are endless butterflies, there must be endless graves. When beings die, their Star Seeds return to the galaxy cauldron. This means that the galaxy cauldron has endless amount of Star Seeds dissolved back into it. Not only would it contain, everything that was was, it would also contain everything that will be. Since potential and possibility is born from it as well.

The BDE page, also says this: A simple example being a realm that is stated to lack space, time and physicality entirely, but is nonetheless shown as being "vaster" than physical reality in some way.

The Cosmos Seed, the concept that gives rise to the entire Cosmos is just a very small part of the Cauldron. Picture a vast endless ocean, where the entire cosmos is just a single drop inside of it. While the cauldron lacks space, time, and physicality, it also shows itself vaster than the physical reality, as the very basis of reality is just a small part of it.

TL;DR

The Galaxy Cauldron predates all matter, abstract and concrete material, possibility and potential, and time and space.
The Galaxy Cauldron transcends space and time and creates things and beings that also transcend space and time.
The Galaxy Cauldron is composite and all things are one with in it. Beings cannot enter or access the cauldron without facing annihilation and homogenization.
The Galaxy Cauldron has no definite size and contains endless possibilities.
The Galaxy Cauldron contains the Cosmos Seed, the concept of reality, as just an small part of itself.

High 1-A+​

The standard for High 1-A+ is written as such: "The apex of this tier, represented also by a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (High Outerverse level+), corresponds to characters whose power encompasses meta-qualities, meta-meta-qualities, and any and all conceivable extensions of this process, a being, in which their power influences the space of all logically possible worlds ("Logical space," where the laws governing it are the three laws of thought), being characters who either have the ability to actualize arbitrarily large worlds, or embody the framework of such worlds itself."

The Galaxy Cauldron is the framework for all logically possible worlds in Sailor Moon. As stated above, it is the source of all existence, all beings, all possibility, potential, destinies, and histories. It is the progenitor of all things: space, time, the very powers and concepts that govern reality. It is the system that governs the rise and falls of stars.

Under Neoplatonism, the Galaxy Cauldron would be akin to the One or the emanation of the One. In Neoplatonism, the One is the ultimate source of all that exists. Everything in existence flows outward from the One through a process of emanation. This emanation process is not creation from nothing but rather a natural unfolding of the One into multiple levels of existence, where each emanation is a reflection of the One's essence.

The Cauldron works in similarity. It too is the ultimate source of all that exists. Everything in existence bubbles out of the cauldron. The Cauldron also does not create out of nothing, but rather each star seed born was once apart of it's primordial waters and will return to it as all things are one within the cauldron. Reality, which derives its form from the Cauldron's Star Seed, are but fleeting shadows. And within the cauldron they are perfected.

Just as the One in Neoplatonism, the Galaxy Cauldron is wholly independent and uncaused, the absolute origin point from which all things emanate from. Every form of existence, every variation, and every expression of power is simply an extension or unfolding of its primordial waters. It has no external progenitor, no higher source, it is the only source. Though it is stated that the Cauldron can be destroyed, this does not contradict its absoluteness. If it were to be destroyed, a new Cauldron would inevitably appear, not by intervention or design, but as a spontaneous restitution that arises from the very nature of its reality. This reflects that the Cauldron is the one true constant, the metaphysical ground from which even continuity and discontinuity spring from. Importantly, its destruction is never brought about by something outside itself; all who wield the power to threaten it, such as Sailor Moon and Chaos, inherit their strength from the Cauldron. Its capacity for self-negation and self-restoration are not anomalies, but intrinsic to its nature. In encompassing both existence and its opposite, the Cauldron contains not just all beings, but is total framework of possibility itself.

Logical Possibility vs. Nominal Possibility​

I see this distinction come up a lot for High 1-A+ threads. As this question will most likely come up, I will answer it now by presenting something that is a nominal impossibility within the context of a singular world, but still a logical possibility within the entire cosmology.

Please keep in mind these three things:

1. A World is simply where a possibility is true. An infinite multiverse can be one world. A singular universe can be another world. Person A being a doctor is one world. Person A being a layer is another world. Person A being both a doctor and a lawyer is another world.

2. A Nominal Possibility is something that is only possible within the natural rules of reality. A hairy bipedal ape living in the forests of North America is a nominal possible because the laws of nature doesn't prevent something like that from happening. A goldfish living on the sun is a nominal impossibility because goldfish cannot survive on the sun.

3. A logical possibility is any possibility that is not a contradiction. A goldfish living on the sun is a logical possibility because the concept is not contradictory. A square circle is a logical impossibility because concept is contradictory.

Now with a story like Sailor Moon, proving that something is nominally impossible would be difficult in a reality filled with magic, reality warping, and fantasy elements which include science fiction, fairy tales, and mythology. However I believe this example can qualify:

It is stated that the Millennium Monarchs only have had one child. However, in an alternate universe, Usagi has two children. We have two worlds, two logical possibilities, but one world is a nominal impossibility for the other. This shows the Cauldron is not beholden to the rules of reality of separate worlds. In fact, the cauldron creates worlds with their own rules. Not surprising for a system that creates both destiny and celestial history.

Scaling​

The Galaxy Cauldron itself will receive its own profile and be rated as High 1-A+

Chaos

Chaos will get High 1-A+ for merging with the Cauldron.

Sailor Moon

Sailor Moon's Lambda form will get High 1-A+ for cleansing the Cauldron of Chaos' influence. Eternal Sailor Moon will get a possibly much higher or simply a possibly High 1-A+ rating for inheriting the Cauldron's light and being able to destroy the cauldron though the Method and process of destruction (if even possible) is Unknown.

Sailor Chaos and Sailor Cosmos

These two will get High 1-A+ for being the alternate ultimate versions of Sailor Moon and Chaos.

The Other Guardians

While in their Complete/Perfect forms, the other Guardians will get High 1-A+ as they are one with the Cauldron and Usagi shared her power with them.

Voting Tabulation​

Beyond Dimensional Existence (Type 2):​

Agree: Saqphire, HenshinIntervention, AsterReal, Compsito
Disagree: MeiouHades
Neutral:

High 1-A+:​

Agree: Saqphire, HenshinIntervention, AsterReal
Disagree: MeiouHades
Neutral:

Others:​

(Low 1-A to 1-A): Osemere, VeryGoofyToddler2
Neutral on 1-A: ExcelsisBerny

 

[Saqphire]

Consulted the argument with Arkham before off-site, so obvious agree

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Put me on agree.
Since this is a very, very controversial revision... any derailing will be reported. These tiers require feedback from knowledgeable members on Tier 1-A and above. Anything else is unwarranted. Cheers!

 

[AsterReal]

I addressed the arguments raised with OP off site. So I agree.

 

[Agnaa]

Pinging at Henshin's request

@Elizhaa @VeryGoofyToddler2

 

[Osemere]

Disagree with H1-A+. There’s nothing indicative that it is impossible that the Monarchs can have more than one child, just that for a millennium that was the case. Inferencing the state of there only being one child for such a long time being that it’s impossible for them to have two, such that an alternate universe of Usagi having two children represents an entire different set of possibilities beyond all possible physical states, is not warranted by this simplistic evidence. Nomological possibility includes all permutations of matter inherently, and there’s an explicitly quantitative amount of those mathematically speaking.

I agree that the Galaxy Cauldron is at minimum L1-A though, since it’s the efficient and final cause of all possibility, wherein all essences in the universe (in the star seeds) are created, including the denomination of all spaces and things inapplicable to the concept of space. All essences (as separate from the physical) that exist are perfected in the Cauldron and begin and end there as one, with their being separate from it being only a “fleeting shadow” compared to who they are as perfected in the Cauldron, which is the source of perfect existence in the setting. Given that the perfected seeds exist beyond the bodies that instantiate them in the Galaxy Cauldron beyond all alternate universes, they trivialize all physical extensions of what they represent essentially as they “truly” exist in the Cauldron. Nothing in space and time being able to exist there is also supportive of L1-A (such that even existing there completely eradicates all instances of you that could exist in all spaces). The only thing stopping it from being full 1-A though is that the Chaos Seed in diminishing in the Cauldron becomes “infinitesimal”, but if that is resolved*, I can see L1-A to possibly 1-A being possible.

*Either through translation, or through the argumentation that Chaos became so small that it was trivialized to “nonexistence” like I’ve seen argued in other places, which would be a definitive and unquestionable 1-A instance.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Okay, to give genuine feedback based on my own understand of 1-A and that I've participated in other 1-A and higher threads:

• The scan for Millennium stuff effectively stated this "Millenniums have only given birth to one princess". But, that scan doesn't state that Usagi cannot give birth to more than one princess.
• In other words, it's not eliminating the possibility that she can't have another princess, it's effectively just saying that her having more than one is odd.

As a result, I'm not sure if that classifies as a logical impossibility in this case, which if correct destroy your entire argument for High 1-A+

Also, from what I gathered, HIgh 1-A+ Type 2 can't really have a scaling chain, so if they're stronger than a certain baseline, they'd be downgraded to High 1-A unless that has changed (Your blog mentioned she 'destroyed' the Cauldron and that they have a power beyond the one that'd scale to the High 1-A+ Type 2)

 

[AsterReal]

Disagree with H1-A+. There’s nothing indicative that it is impossible that the Monarchs can have more than one child, just that for millennium that was the case. Inferencing the state of there only being one child for such a long time being that it’s impossible for them to have two, such that an alternate universe of Usagi having two children represents an entire different set of possibilities beyond all possible physical states, is not warranted by this simplistic evidence. Nomological possibility includes all permutations of matter inherently, and there’s an explicitly quantitative amount of those mathematically speaking.

I agree that the Galaxy Cauldron is at minimum L1-A though, since it’s the efficient and final cause of all possibility, wherein all essences in the universe (in the star seeds) are created, including the denomination of all spaces and things inapplicable to the concept of space. All essences (as separate from the physical) that exist are perfected in the Cauldron and begin and end there as one, with their being separate from it being only a “fleeting shadow” compared to who they are as perfected in the Cauldron, which is the source of perfect existence in the setting. Given that the perfected seeds exist beyond the bodies that instantiate them in the Galaxy Cauldron beyond all alternate universes, they trivialize all physical extensions of what they represent essentially as they “truly” exist in the Cauldron. Nothing in space and time being able to exist there is also supportive of L1-A (such that even existing there completely eradicates all instances of you that could exist in all spaces). The only thing stopping it from being full 1-A though is that the Chaos Seed in diminishing in the Cauldron becomes “infinitesimal”, but if that is resolved*, I can see L1-A to possibly 1-A being possible.

Either through translation, or through the argumentation that Chaos became so small that it was trivialized to “nonexistence” like I’ve seen argued in other places, which would be a definitive and unquestionable 1-A instance.

When it is said that Chaos became so small that he could not be found, it is because the Lambda Power shattered his being into such a small and weakened form that he could be erased by the Galaxy Cauldron. But at some point in time he will be able to regenerate from that erasure.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Disagree with H1-A+. There’s nothing indicative that it is impossible that the Monarchs can have more than one child, just that for millennium that was the case. Inferencing the state of there only being one child for such a long time being that it’s impossible for them to have two, such that an alternate universe of Usagi having two children represents an entire different set of possibilities beyond all possible physical states, is not warranted by this simplistic evidence.

Millennium here does not refer to a period of time, but the name of the kingdoms of the Queens. The Silver Millennium was the name of Queen Serenity's kingdom. The Crystal Millennium is Neo Queen Serenity.

Nomological possibility includes all permutations of matter inherently, and there’s an explicitly quantitative amount of those mathematically speaking.

I have to disagree here. A living goldfish being made of solid gold is permutation of matter and not possible under our laws of reality. Any permutation of matter cannot be nomological, because such permutations would include things that violate natural law.

Either through translation, or through the argumentation that Chaos became so small that it was trivialized to “nonexistence” like I’ve seen argued in other places, which would be a definitive and unquestionable 1-A instance.

Chaos was reduced by Sailor Moon and dissolved back into the cauldron. Dissolving back in the cauldron erases you from existence.

 

[Osemere]

When it is said that Chaos became so small that he could not be found, it is because the Lambda Power shattered his being into such a small and weakened form that he could be erased by the Galaxy Cauldron. But at some point in time he will be able to regenerate from that erasure.

Yes, but the issue here is that Chaos could even have a size comparable to the Cauldron such that if was big enough he couldn’t be erased but if he was small enough he could, which would go against 1-A due to the Cauldron then being put in the denomination of breadth and scale, but I don’t think this is the end-all as noted before (since you can argue that Chaos at that point was conceptual anyways, and given that the Cauldron is the creator of all possible concepts, it’ll be eventually be reborn/reinstantiated, and Usagi in using the Lambda Power from the Cauldron reduced his concept to such an extent it was trivialized into nothingness, which would be another interpretation compatible with 1-A.)

 

[MeiouHades]

Blog Version for ease of use

Before we start, allow me to instill some basic knowledge to prevent confusion:

1. In Sailor Moon, the term "Star" is used both literally and metaphorically. Literally, it refers to actual stars in space. Metaphorically, it can refer to other celestial bodies such as planets or moons, as well as people and individuals. Since everything in the verse originates from a Star Seed, you can essentially refer to anything as a “Star.”

2. While the term "Galaxy" is used in the text, the scope of the Galaxy Cauldron extends beyond just the galaxy to encompass the entire cosmology.
(As evidence: is Pharaoh 90 a being from an alternate dimension which is a separate space-time, originated in the Galaxy cauldron).

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but I fail to see how this specific evidence does anything to describe the scope of the Cauldron.

With that said. Let's begin:

The Galaxy Cauldron is the literal heart and center of the entire Sailor Moon Cosmology. It is a structure at the center of the galaxy which produces Star Seeds and Sailor Crystals which become everything in the verse. Living beings, Celestial objects, power, light, and even universes and dimensions. Everything that has life, comes from a Star Seed.

Something ain't right here. You state that that Star seeds and Sailor crystals become universes and even dimensions but.... your scans do not support that statement. The only statement that even remotely suggests this in the very last scan talking about the Tau Star System. Even then, it's only referring to that one specific dimension (which I know is accepted as a universe currently), not at all about all other universes or dimensions. The one talking about the Cosmos seed (presumably referring to the universe they're in) is also only referring to just one universe. As far as I know, Sailor Moon contains multiple universe/timelines and dimensions which would also be part of creation as well. Does the Cauldron also create Star seeds for them? I'll wait on this and see if you've got a scan or two for that.

Beyond Dimensional Existence (Type 2)​

The standard for BDE Type 2 are as follows:

"Through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence.

As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar. However, if they are applied to realms that can be inferred to surpass the very composition of the lower reality (e.g. Realms that are, themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains, or often, voids of nothingness), then 1-A is the most appropriate rating for them."

The Galaxy Cauldron is more than just a galactic center. It is a structure that creates Star Seeds. Star Seeds are the fundamental metaphysical aspect that governs the Sailor Moon Verse. All things are derived or given form from Star Seeds. As Star Seeds give form to celestial objects, this means that the Cauldron predates matter. All living beings, including non-physical being (souls, ghosts, gods, beings made of shadow, and will) are derived from star seeds meaning the Cauldron also predates non-physical material. Being the source of Star Seeds, the Cauldron is a metaphysical, conceptual realm akin to the Platonic World of Forms. The series itself even describes the physical forms that are derived from star seeds as "fleeting shadows" of the Star Seed.

From what I gather here, this is you stating that the Cauldron predates all matter and non-physical beings. That is fine but predating creation is simply not the same as utter, complete Ontological superiority.

Star Seeds are more than Physical or Non Physical Phenomena. The cosmos itself has a seed. Individual dimensions also have a seed. Chronos the God of Time is also living being and would be derived from the Cauldron. This means that the Cauldron predates space and time. It would also predate the Corridor of Space-Time which has no concept of distance or direction, without any flow of Time. The Cauldron also created the Silver Crystal, a Sailor Crystal, stated to transcend space and time, be utterly unhindered by the layers of time, cut through space and time, and again stated to transcend space and time. It also created the Dark Crystal which can warp all of spacetime. The Cauldron is not only the source of Space, Time, and Dimensions, but it also transcends them.

A couple of things here:
1.) Predating space and time doesn't really mean a whole lot without more information.
2.) I don't really see any scan supporting the idea that it predates the Corridor of Space-Time, then again even if it did say that, predating it wouldn't really mean much without more information. Also, we've debated this before but has the idea that the Corridor lacks concepts of distance/direction been accepted? If not, then not only can I contest that, it also doesn't really serve you here since lacking a concept doesn't mean being entirely superior to it.
3.) Onto the Silver Crystal, this is presumably talking about a single space-time correct? Knowing that there exist multiple space-times/timelines in the verse, it wouldn't really grant it Ontological superiority to all of space-time for that reason and the fact that transcendence doesn't usually refer to such superiority anyway without strong supporting context which I don't see here. Same thing with the Black crystal though it doesn't even talk about transcendence so I need not address it anyway.

The Cauldron is stated to be where everything is born and everything passes away. It is also stated where everything started as one. This would mean the Cauldron is composite and not made of individual parts. It is described as primordial sea where that individual dissolves into.

Which seems almost entirely antithetical to a structure that supposedly surpasses all of creation "below" it so completely and utterly. This is definitely not suitable evidence for a structure you claim has Ontological superiority over all of lower reality nor a structure that is completely superior to all of space-time (which as I said you'd need to put some effort into proving that it holds true for all parallel space-times too not just the main verse).

Upon touching the Cauldron, beings are erased. Not only are they destroyed, but they are erased across history and everything dependent on them is erased as well. This also affects beings with Acausality. Chibiusa, who is from the future, was not affected by her father being killed in the past. She was however affected by her father being erased by the Galaxy Cauldron. In fact, Mamoru's future self was immediately not erased or destroyed by his past self's death. This means, that beings cannot exist anywhere in creation, as well as within the Cauldron at the same time. The Cauldron is unreachable to beings in the "outer realm' they must first undergo annihilation and homogenization.

This just sounds like a very advanced form of History EE plus acausality negation, I'm not entirely sure why this is here and for what. The last point that I bolded is potentially interesting though, do you have more information on that?

To express this acausal nature even further, Death Phantom is a being that was defeated and destroyed by Sailor Moon in the future. He appears in the cauldron during the past, when Sailor Moon reaches it in her timeline. This shows that the Cauldron is not beholden to the flow of events of causality. Everything that is inside of the Cauldron does not exist in any part of reality, past, present or future.

Once again I'm not entirely sure why this is relevant or how it ties into what you're trying to argue. This is just textbook acausality, nothing more that I can see at least.

Despite being depicted a galactic center. The Cauldron has no definite size. Within Sagittarius Alpha Star, there is a graveyard where an endless procession of butterflies representing the dying flames of stars goes on forever.

I'm pretty sure being referred to as a "galactic center" IS an indication of size. Further more, the Sagittarius Alpha Star likely refers to the Sagittarius A* that is a black hole at the center of our very own Milky Way galaxy. Now I'm not suggesting that the Cauldron is just some black hole at the center of the galaxy (because if it was, it would've been stated), but it definitely does seem to have a size and given how many of its properties closely resemble those that we suspect that black holes possess (destruction of information, space-time f**kery, etc) I'd say we have a good idea of how large it may be.

These butterflies emerge from the graves in the graveyard. Because there are endless butterflies, there must be endless graves. When beings die, their Star Seeds return to the galaxy cauldron. This means that the galaxy cauldron has endless amount of Star Seeds dissolved back into it. Not only would it contain, everything that was was, it would also contain everything that will be. Since potential and possibility is born from it as well.

Endless doesn't really mean much, fiction often uses it to describe a massive amount of something. This includes stars in the sky or the galaxy which can often be referred to as countless or endless but we all know the number doesn't exceed 200-400 billion for most. I wouldn't say this is strong evidence for the Cauldron to be "endless" (read: infinite) and given it's location and nature that makes it even more apparent.

So yeah, for now I disagree with the Low 1-A stuff entirely since I don't believe the presented evidence really meets any of the standards mentioned above. I'm gonna stick around a bit and see if some of my questions get answered and if I'm convinced of otherwise by then. For the High 1-A+ stuff I haven't read it in much detail yet so I'm not gonna give a half-baked judgement on it.

 

[AsterReal]

Yes, but the issue here is that Chaos could even have a size comparable to the Cauldron such that if was big enough he couldn’t be erased but if he was small enough he could, which would go against 1-A due to the Cauldron then being put in the denomination of breadth and scale, but I don’t think this is the end-all as noted before (since you can argue that Chaos at that point was conceptual anyways, and given that the Cauldron is the creator of all possible concepts, it’ll be eventually be reborn/reinstantiated, and Usagi in using the Lambda Power from the Cauldron reduced his concept to such an extent it was trivialized into nothingness, which would be another interpretation compatible with 1-A.)

Chaos had merged with the Galaxy Cauldron before Sailor Moon used the lambda power against it. So Sailor Moon hitting him with such a power blast separated Chaos from the Galaxy Cauldron and blew him to pieces and made him "too small to be found." The Galaxy Cauldron did the rest and erased him from existence.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Also, from what I gathered, HIgh 1-A+ Type 2 can't really have a scaling chain, so if they're stronger than a certain baseline, they'd be downgraded to High 1-A unless that has changed (Your blog mentioned she 'destroyed' the Cauldron and that they have a power beyond the one that'd scale to the High 1-A+ Type 2)

Sailor Moon chose not destroy the cauldron but instead cleansed it. Her power comes from the Cauldron, directly stating it's the cauldron's own light. Everything she can do is an extension of the cauldron's own self. If she was stronger than the cauldron then that strength would have to originate from the cauldron. The current tier system gives room for characters that can influence the framework.

Okay, to give genuine feedback based on my own understand of 1-A and that I've participated in other 1-A and higher threads:

• The scan for Millennium stuff effectively stated this "Millenniums have only given birth to one princess". But, that scan doesn't state that Usagi cannot give birth to more than one princess.
• In other words, it's not eliminating the possibility that she can't have another princess, it's effectively just saying that her having more than one is odd.

As a result, I'm not sure if that classifies as a logical impossibility in this case, which if correct destroy your entire argument for High 1-A+

My inclusion of the scan, was that millennium queens having only one child, which is the case for main usagi, can be seen as nomological impossibility for a singular world. Her having a second child is a logical possibility in all worlds. It's not logically impossible for her to have more than one child, as clearly stated, such thing already exists.

 

[Osemere]

Millennium here does not refer to a period of time, but the name of the kingdoms of the Queens. The Silver Millennium was the name of Queen Serenity's kingdom. The Crystal Millennium is Neo Queen Serenity.

Thanks, I admit I misread that (skimmed it and confused “for generations” with the mention of millennium later in the panel).

I have to disagree here. A living goldfish being made of solid gold is permutation of matter and not possible under our laws of reality. Any permutation of matter cannot be nomological, because such permutations would include things that violate natural law.

Even ignoring how it isn’t physically impossible to imagine some organism made out of gold rather than carbon, this isn’t how philosophical modality works. H1-A+ includes all logically coherent statements, and you can’t generate that from simply having a multiverse which has different possible universes based on how many kids you had, as that sense of generation (even if you gave leave to it being all possible physical permutations), wouldn’t include all possible logical statements, as the former (all physical permutations) is explicitly a set, and the latter cannot possibly be put in a set.

Chaos was reduced by Sailor Moon and dissolved back into the cauldron. Dissolving back in the cauldron erases you from existence.

Ditto. I don’t have any opinion on this besides certain interpretations of this being explicitly antithetical to 1-A due to the Cauldron differentiating on whether something is too “big” to erase in comparison to it, such that if it’s sufficiently “small” it can erase it, but Usagi reducing Chaos to nothingness then allowing the Cauldron to erase it would be consistent with it as already stated, so it just depends on how you argue it (because, again, something being literally “infinitesimal” to something else means it has a comparison of size compositely, but Chaos literally being a concept at that stage possibly makes this completely metaphorical.)

I’m fine with dropping the latter point as “possibly 1-A” added to the Cauldron being L1-A at minimum in my previous point.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Yes, but the issue here is that Chaos could even have a size comparable to the Cauldron such that if was big enough he couldn’t be erased but if he was small enough he could, which would go against 1-A due to the Cauldron then being put in the denomination of breadth and scale, but I don’t think this is the end-all as noted before (since you can argue that Chaos at that point was conceptual anyways, and given that the Cauldron is the creator of all possible concepts, it’ll be eventually be reborn/reinstantiated, and Usagi in using the Lambda Power from the Cauldron reduced his concept to such an extent it was trivialized into nothingness, which would be another interpretation compatible with 1-A.)

Ditto. I don’t have any opinion on this besides certain interpretations of this being explicitly antithetical to 1-A due to the Cauldron differentiating on whether something is too “big” to erase in comparison to it, such that if it’s sufficiently “small” it can erase it, but Usagi reducing Chaos to nothingness then allowing the Cauldron to erase it would be consistent with it as already stated, so it just depends on how you argue it (because, again, something being literally “infinitesimal” to something else means it has a comparison of size compositely, but Chaos literally being a concept at that stage possibly makes this completely metaphorical.)

Chaos's ability to be erased is not dependent on his "size". He took form inside the cauldron and merged with it. Sailor Moon ripped his form apart and he reverted back to his original core, his star seed which dissolved back to the cauldron. The too small to be found again, is just a nice narrative way of saying, you can' find a drop of water that went back into the ocean.

 

[Osemere]

Chaos's ability to be erased is not dependent on his "size". He took form inside the cauldron and merged with it. Sailor Moon ripped his form apart and he reverted back to his original core, his star seed which dissolved back to the cauldron. The too small to be found again, is just a nice narrative way of saying, you can' find a drop of water that went back into the ocean.

Since it was essentially entirely conceptual I admit that any statements indicative of size are likely allegorical (as I did in my original post where I brought this up). I just brought that up originally given that even if granted the Cauldron is at minimum L1-A, and potentially higher, due to that level of existence between Moon and Chaos being in their perfected essences and therefore beyond any possible physical extension of who they were previously. The relation of "size" was mentioned as relevant given something infinitesimal is equivalent to being non-existent to the Cauldron, which is an additional point in favor of 1-A as I originally mentioned, hence why I said "possibly 1-A" given that some other potential interpretations would cap the Cauldron below that, although I don't even care if "likely" is replaced there as the preponderance of evidence is indicative that that was entirely on a conceptual level anyways (with that interpretation bolstering 1-A, rather than simply being compatible with it.)

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Even ignoring how it isn’t physically impossible to imagine some organism made out of gold rather than carbon, this isn’t how philosophical modality works. H1-A+ includes all logically coherent statements, and you can’t generate that from simply having a multiverse which has different possible universes based on how many kids you had, as that sense of generation (even if you gave leave to it being all possible physical permutations), wouldn’t include all possible logical statements, as the former (all physical permutations) is explicitly a set, and the latter cannot possibly be put in a set.

You'll have to forgive me if I get some of these terms mixed up. Philosophy is not my main focus. But I first one to make sure that this is not about a multiverse of possibilities, where every universe is its own possibility. This is not the case in the bigger sense. The Cauldron creates star seeds which are possibilities that can become anything from people to cosmological structures.

Let's for now remove the frame of universes and focus on individual. Main Usagi is someone who can only have one child or is shown to only have one child. Alternate Usagi is someone who can have more than one child or is shown to have more than one child. I am arguing that the cauldron allows for both possibilities (which it already does) while one of these possibility may be unavailable to a specific individual.

Now granted, I used this as an example, because in a verse like Sailor Moon where magic is abundant, a solid gold goldfish that is alive is actual natural possibility as physical items can be alive. The cauldron includes all logical coherent statements, and is not only limited to diversity of universes.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Now granted, I used this as an example, because in a verse like Sailor Moon where magic is abundant, a solid gold goldfish that is alive is actual natural possibility as physical items can be alive. The cauldron includes all logical coherent statements, and is not only limited to diversity of universes.

Examples: Both Sailor Moon and Chibi Moon's Kaleidoscope got their own wills and souls and Mercury's Harp has a will of its own.

 

[Osemere]

You'll have to forgive me if I get some of these terms mixed up. Philosophy is not my main focus. But I first one to make sure that this is not about a multiverse of possibilities, where every universe is its own possibility. This is not the case in the bigger sense. The Cauldron creates star seeds which are possibilities that can become anything from people to cosmological structures.

Right, and this would be H1-A+ type 1 rather than type 2. I could see type 1 being more likely given that the Cauldron as being destroyed and there being a scaling hierarchy with relating to the Cauldron would be impossible with type 2, and type 1 would at least be more supported in terms of the Cauldron being able to create anything possible from the concepts it generates, but I still see this as lacking the necessary evidence given how the claim here is that the Cauldron could generate any logically possible concept despite nothing really indicating that (even if it did create all concepts in the universe). But still, if you had to select one over the other, your categorization of the Cauldron here wouldn’t be type 2 anyways.

Let's for now remove the frame of universes and focus on individual. Main Usagi is someone who can only have one child or is shown to only have one child. Alternate Usagi is someone who can have more than one child or is shown to have more than one child. I am arguing that the cauldron allows for both possibilities (which it already does) while one of these possibility may be unavailable to a specific individual.

Sure, the Cauldron allows for both possibilities and both possibilities are generated by the Cauldron. It’s just that this mode of generation is itself not inherently identical to the mode that would generate all logically possible sentences (type 2), just all permutations of matter, since Usagi having one child or two children is itself a quantitative and physical counterfactual. Even blowing the breadth of possibilities up from how many children anyone could have being a distinct possibility generated from the Cauldron to all physical possibilities altogether would just be H1-B.

Now granted, I used this as an example, because in a verse like Sailor Moon where magic is abundant, a solid gold goldfish that is alive is actual natural possibility as physical items can be alive. The cauldron includes all logical coherent statements, and is not only limited to diversity of universes.

I am aware, but not relevant. Even having a multiverse of all possible laws of physics (which would be bigger than the one generated by Usagi having one child in some universe and not having one in the other, since it’s not based on a physical impossibility, but is consistent with a multiverse of different universes with the same constants and laws) wouldn’t ever get to 1-A, let alone H1-A+.

For the record again I agree with the first part of this upgrade and think Usagi should be L1-A to 1-A with BDE. I just don’t think H1-A+ in either type is supported at all.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Yeah. I basically share the same view as Osemere regarding the High 1-A+.

I think there just isn’t enough data to properly argue for it (at least not within the thread).

Neutral regarding the 1-A.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Right, and this would be H1-A+ type 1 rather than type 2. I could see type 1 being more likely given that the Cauldron as being destroyed and there being a scaling hierarchy with relating to the Cauldron would be impossible with type 2, and type 1 would at least be more supported in terms of the Cauldron being able to create anything possible from the concepts it generates, but I still see this as lacking the necessary evidence given how the claim here is that the Cauldron could generate any logically possible concept despite nothing really indicating that (even if it did create all concepts in the universe). But still, if you had to select one over the other, your categorization of the Cauldron here wouldn’t be type 2 anyways.
Sure, the Cauldron allows for both possibilities and both possibilities are generated by the Cauldron. It’s just that this mode of generation is itself not inherently identical to the mode that would generate all logically possible sentences (type 2), just all permutations of matter, since Usagi having one child or two children is itself a quantitative and physical counterfactual. Even blowing the breadth of possibilities up from how many children anyone could have being a distinct possibility generated from the Cauldron to all physical possibilities altogether would just be H1-B.

The Cauldron allows for all possibilities, it IS all possibilities, not just the two OP mentioned. If I recall correctly, High 1-A+ Type 1 allows for actualizing possibilities, whereas Type 2 is for embodying all possibilities there can be.

 

[Osemere]

The Cauldron allows for all possibilities, it IS all possibilities, not just the two OP mentioned. If I recall correctly, High 1-A+ Type 1 allows for actualizing possibilities, whereas Type 2 is for embodying all possibilities there can be.

Yes, it’s all possibilities. But even if you admit that its denomination lies with regard to logical possibility, it being in a state of possibility with regard to potentially being destroyed or potentially not being destroyed is itself another possible world it would exist in, meaning that necessarily it is within the collection of all possible worlds itself (with a truth-table corresponding to it being true in one counterfactual that it was destroyed, and false in the one that it wasn’t), and hence could only cap out at H1-A+ type 1 if the possibilities it generated were truly only limited to logical possibility.

But, it being limited to logical possibility is not supported by the evidence. Physical possibility? Sure. But I already admitted that in agreeing to L1-A to 1-A (in either enveloping all physical possibility or being qualitatively superior to it all in the latter case).

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Yes, it’s all possibilities. But even if you admit that its denomination lies with regard to logical possibility, it being in a state of possibility with regard to potentially being destroyed or potentially not being destroyed is itself another possible world it would exist in, meaning that necessarily it is within the collection of all possible worlds itself (with a truth-table corresponding to it being true in one counterfactual that it was destroyed, and false in the one that it wasn’t), and hence could only cap out at H1-A+ type 1 if the possibilities it generated were truly only limited to logical possibility.

But, it being limited to logical possibility is not supported by the evidence. Physical possibility? Sure. But I already admitted that in agreeing to L1-A to 1-A (in either enveloping all physical possibility or being qualitatively superior to it all in the latter case).

Thank you, I will put you down for agreeing to L1-A to 1A.

But if you would to continue, I would like to ask for some clarification? If I understand what you're saying that the framework cannot be apart of the collection of spaces? If so:

Let us assume for the sake of argument that the cauldron being destroyed and the cauldron not being destroyed represent two distinct possible worlds. In this view, the cauldron would exist as an entity within the collection of possible worlds. However, I argue that this is not coherent. A world in which the cauldron is truly destroyed cannot exist, because the cauldron it is the metaphysical groundwork for all worlds to exist. The destruction of the cauldron would entail the collapse of the very structure that allows possible worlds to exist or to be actualized. If the cauldron were annihilated in one world, that annihilation would necessarily apply to all worlds, because it would remove the precondition that sustains the entire collection as a whole. This leads to the contradiction that if one world shows the cauldron destroyed, then no world can remain; but if any world remains, then the destruction does not exist. Therefore, a world where the cauldron is truly destroyed is not a possible world at all and cannot be apart of the collection. The cauldron cannot be an inhabitant of any possible worlds, but something that exists outside them. Its destruction and subsequent return are not events that unfold within any modal space but in its own level. When star seeds are birthed from the cauldron they are entering the modal space and when they return to the cauldron, they are leaving the modal space.

 

[Osemere]

Thank you, I will put you down for agreeing to L1-A to 1A.

But if you would to continue, I would like to ask for some clarification? If I understand what you're saying that the framework cannot be apart of the collection of spaces? If so:

Let us assume for the sake of argument that the cauldron being destroyed and the cauldron not being destroyed represent two distinct possible worlds. In this view, the cauldron would exist as an entity within the collection of possible worlds. However, I argue that this is not coherent. A world in which the cauldron is truly destroyed cannot exist, because the cauldron it is the metaphysical groundwork for all worlds to exist. The destruction of the cauldron would entail the collapse of the very structure that allows possible worlds to exist or to be actualized. If the cauldron were annihilated in one world, that annihilation would necessarily apply to all worlds, because it would remove the precondition that sustains the entire collection as a whole. This leads to the contradiction that if one world shows the cauldron destroyed, then no world can remain; but if any world remains, then the destruction does not exist. Therefore, a world where the cauldron is truly destroyed is not a possible world at all and cannot be apart of the collection. The cauldron cannot be an inhabitant of any possible worlds, but something that exists outside them. Its destruction and subsequent return are not events that unfold within any modal space but in its own level. When star seeds are birthed from the cauldron they are entering the modal space and when they return to the cauldron, they are leaving the modal space.

Sure, but this is affirming the consequent. It's the case that the Cauldron is necessary and therefore cannot be destroyed completely, only "reset", but that mode of reset is nonetheless sufficient in showing that it is nonetheless a part of some possible world (the one where it isn't reset or is).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I just read the OP and then some of the arguments below.

I think Low 1-A is fine. I don't know what to believe about the Chaos thing. Assuming everything is metaphorical and not literal, then 1-A also works for the Cauldron, which probably is the better call if there's no other anti-feat against it.

As for High 1-A+. Honestly, I don't really think there's a strong case here. I share pretty much the same sentiment as this guy below:

Even ignoring how it isn’t physically impossible to imagine some organism made out of gold rather than carbon, this isn’t how philosophical modality works. H1-A+ includes all logically coherent statements, and you can’t generate that from simply having a multiverse which has different possible universes based on how many kids you had, as that sense of generation (even if you gave leave to it being all possible physical permutations), wouldn’t include all possible logical statements, as the former (all physical permutations) is explicitly a set, and the latter cannot possibly be put in a set.

I’m fine with dropping the latter point as “possibly 1-A” added to the Cauldron being L1-A at minimum in my previous point.

PS: I only came here since Agnaa summoned me for whatever reason.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Sure, but this is affirming the consequent. It's the case that the Cauldron is necessary and therefore cannot be destroyed completely, only "reset", but that mode of reset is nonetheless sufficient in showing that it is nonetheless a part of some possible world (the one where it isn't reset or is).

I would lastly argue that this is not the case either. The reset can only occur after the destruction of the Cauldron, and because the destruction of the cauldron, also destroys the collection of worlds, then the reset cannot be part of said collection. The Birth, Death, and Rebirth of the Cauldron occurs on an ontological level above the collection of worlds. I would also want to mention that we should not confuse the Cauldron's appearance in a world with it being ontological dependent on that world. The Cauldron by necessity existed prior to all worlds, including the main universe. And not to mention, to enter the cauldron, all trace of you must be erased from the collection of worlds. The cauldron is not a world among worlds, but the condition for worldhood itself.

But thank you for commenting. Your words have been a big help with this thread. I have marked down your vote for Low 1-A to possibly 1A

I just read the OP and then some of the arguments below.

I think Low 1-A is fine. I don't know what to believe about the Chaos thing. Assuming everything is metaphorical and not literal, then 1-A also works for the Cauldron, which probably is the better call if there's no other anti-feat against it.

As for High 1-A+. Honestly, I don't really think there's a strong case here. I share pretty much the same sentiment as this guy below:

PS: I only came here since Agnaa summoned me for whatever reason.

Thanks for commenting. I do believe the concerns with Chaos has been cleared up. I

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Also, since we are seeing mention of the different types, I do want to refer to this:

World of Darkness, an Unasked for Sequel

Yeah, let's not with this. Please ... Was that comment necessary ? Just because he disagrees with you in things doesn't automatically make him unreliable How about realizing that I was just teasing? I wasn't being blunt.

vsbattles.com

Type 2 is what I am going for. I am arguing that the Cauldron contains all possibilities.

 

[Compsito]

I feel that 1-A is a more viable option

 

[HenshinIntervention]

I would lastly argue that this is not the case either. The reset can only occur after the destruction of the Cauldron, and because the destruction of the cauldron, also destroys the collection of worlds, then the reset cannot be part of said collection. The Birth, Death, and Rebirth of the Cauldron occurs on an ontological level above the collection of worlds. I would also want to mention that we should not confuse the Cauldron's appearance in a world with it being ontological dependent on that world. The Cauldron by necessity existed prior to all worlds, including the main universe. And not to mention, to enter the cauldron, all trace of you must be erased from the collection of worlds. The cauldron is not a world among worlds, but the condition for worldhood itself.

Most of the opinion seems to be on Low 1-A to 1-A but has anyone had a response to OP's post here?

 

[RoninSlayer200]

Most of the opinion seems to be on Low 1-A to 1-A but has anyone had a response to OP's post here?

Meiouhades has responded to some arguments of OP.

.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but I fail to see how this specific evidence does anything to describe the scope of the Cauldron.

Something ain't right here. You state that that Star seeds and Sailor crystals become universes and even dimensions but.... your scans do not support that statement. The only statement that even remotely suggests this in the very last scan talking about the Tau Star System. Even then, it's only referring to that one specific dimension (which I know is accepted as a universe currently), not at all about all other universes or dimensions. The one talking about the Cosmos seed (presumably referring to the universe they're in) is also only referring to just one universe. As far as I know, Sailor Moon contains multiple universe/timelines and dimensions which would also be part of creation as well. Does the Cauldron also create Star seeds for them? I'll wait on this and see if you've got a scan or two for that.

From what I gather here, this is you stating that the Cauldron predates all matter and non-physical beings. That is fine but predating creation is simply not the same as utter, complete Ontological superiority.

A couple of things here:
1.) Predating space and time doesn't really mean a whole lot without more information.
2.) I don't really see any scan supporting the idea that it predates the Corridor of Space-Time, then again even if it did say that, predating it wouldn't really mean much without more information. Also, we've debated this before but has the idea that the Corridor lacks concepts of distance/direction been accepted? If not, then not only can I contest that, it also doesn't really serve you here since lacking a concept doesn't mean being entirely superior to it.
3.) Onto the Silver Crystal, this is presumably talking about a single space-time correct? Knowing that there exist multiple space-times/timelines in the verse, it wouldn't really grant it Ontological superiority to all of space-time for that reason and the fact that transcendence doesn't usually refer to such superiority anyway without strong supporting context which I don't see here. Same thing with the Black crystal though it doesn't even talk about transcendence so I need not address it anyway.

Which seems almost entirely antithetical to a structure that supposedly surpasses all of creation "below" it so completely and utterly. This is definitely not suitable evidence for a structure you claim has Ontological superiority over all of lower reality nor a structure that is completely superior to all of space-time (which as I said you'd need to put some effort into proving that it holds true for all parallel space-times too not just the main verse).

This just sounds like a very advanced form of History EE plus acausality negation, I'm not entirely sure why this is here and for what. The last point that I bolded is potentially interesting though, do you have more information on that?

Once again I'm not entirely sure why this is relevant or how it ties into what you're trying to argue. This is just textbook acausality, nothing more that I can see at least.

I'm pretty sure being referred to as a "galactic center" IS an indication of size. Further more, the Sagittarius Alpha Star likely refers to the Sagittarius A* that is a black hole at the center of our very own Milky Way galaxy. Now I'm not suggesting that the Cauldron is just some black hole at the center of the galaxy (because if it was, it would've been stated), but it definitely does seem to have a size and given how many of its properties closely resemble those that we suspect that black holes possess (destruction of information, space-time f**kery, etc) I'd say we have a good idea of how large it may be.

Endless doesn't really mean much, fiction often uses it to describe a massive amount of something. This includes stars in the sky or the galaxy which can often be referred to as countless or endless but we all know the number doesn't exceed 200-400 billion for most. I wouldn't say this is strong evidence for the Cauldron to be "endless" (read: infinite) and given it's location and nature that makes it even more apparent.

So yeah, for now I disagree with the Low 1-A stuff entirely since I don't believe the presented evidence really meets any of the standards mentioned above. I'm gonna stick around a bit and see if some of my questions get answered and if I'm convinced of otherwise by then. For the High 1-A+ stuff I haven't read it in much detail yet so I'm not gonna give a half-baked judgement on it.

I posted a scan that directly states the silver crystal transcends space and time in two different settings.

Your argument that it only transcends the single universe isn’t coherent. The scan says space and time, not the “space and time of this universe”, also we’ve shown that silver crystal’s range is the entire cosmology, as it can cross the layers of time and lit up the corridor which connects all spaces and times.

Further more, the silver crystal gets its properties from the cauldron, and was once one with the cauldron, therefore the cauldron transcends space and time.

And if a direct statement isn’t good enough for you (along with everything else i have stated), then the guidelines state you can show transcendence by “A simple example being a realm that is stated to lack space, time and physicality entirely, but is nonetheless shown as being "vaster" than physical reality in some way”.

The cosmos seed, the very source of the entire cosmos, is just an infinitesimal drop in the cauldron.

 

[MeiouHades]

I posted a scan that directly states the silver crystal transcends space and time in two different settings.

Right, and I pointed out the problems with it.

Your argument that it only transcends the single universe isn’t coherent. The scan says space and time, not the “space and time of this universe”,

That's on you to prove that it is talking about all of space-time/all of the cosmology, it isn't my burden to prove a negative. Unless you're saying that all of the cosmology is a single space-time which can't be true.

also we’ve shown that silver crystal’s range is the entire cosmology, as it lit can cross the layers of time and lit up the corridor which connects all spaces and times.

Yeah, that seems to be more of an anti-feat for the corridor itself rather than evidence of its range or superiority. Lighting up a realm that literally acts as a connection between different parts of a cosmology is entirely different to influencing the entire cosmology (also do I really need to tell you that lighting up =/= transcendence?). That only works though if the space-time corridor itself is superior to the rest of the cosmology which I don't really see you arguing here. You've reiterated multiple times that it is simply used to traverse the cosmology using the space-time key and coordinates. The layers of time stuff I'm possibly misunderstanding here, so could you provide more info on why that's relevant here?

Further more, the silver crystal gets its properties feom the cauldron, and was once one with the cauldron, therefore the cauldron trancends space and time.

Right, and including all that I've said above already, I also mentioned that transcendence doesn't usually mean much as far as achieving complete, qualitative superiority goes. The fact is, it being stated to be a literal galactic center (with all the implications that come with it, which I've highlighted in my previous post) is already a huge anti-feat against it, not to mention all the willy-nilly travel to and from it. I have yet to see a reason why you believe that it should qualify for Ontological superiority.

And if a direct statement isn’t good enough for you (along with everything else i have stated), then the guidelines state you can show transcendence by “A simple example being a realm that is stated to lack space, time and physicality entirely, but is nonetheless shown as being "vaster" than physical reality in some way”.

I'm not debating transcendence, I'm debating the claim of its complete Ontological superiority to all of reality. You do understand that simply lacking space and time isn't the same as that right? You have to prove its complete, unequivocal superiority to it, and one of the most basic ways you'd even begin doing that is proving unambiguously that it truly transcends the entire cosmology which you haven't done. And as I said you've in no way proven its 'vastness' either, in fact you didn't counter my objections regarding its size which makes me doubt this line of scaling that much more.

The cosmos seed, the very source of the entire cosmos, is just an infinitesimal drop in the cauldron.

Right, unfortunately unless you can also unequivocally prove that 'cosmos' here is referring to the entire cosmology here (including the Corridor), this doesn't really help your case.

I feel like you're truly underestimating and misunderstanding what it means and what it takes to achieve qualitatively superiority to something. You do understand the anti-feats basically make it impossible, right? It's not as simple as simply showing that a realm predates matter and a space-time or is the source of an object stated to 'transcend space-time'. So yeah, I've become even more unconvinced of this argument than I was before, so unless you can prove superiority/transcendence to all of the cosmology, it's a complete non-starter without it. I don't even have to go into any anti-feats (besides the size, and even that is because you mentioned it) yet because of this.

 

[Da3ggman]

and again stated to transcend space and time. It also created the Dark Crystal which can warp all of spacetime. The Cauldron is not only the source of Space, Time, and Dimensions, but it also transcends them.

I'm seeing some stuff I'm not to sure on in this that I might get to later (maybe not, I don't have much of an interest in Sailor Moon), but for the mentions of transcending space and time, do you have the raws for it? Just wanna get that checked out to see if it's specifically talking about "transcending" as you're implying, or something else.

 

[MeiouHades]

I'm seeing some stuff I'm not to sure on in this that I might get to later (maybe not, I don't have much of an interest in Sailor Moon), but for the mentions of transcending space and time, do you have the raws for it? Just wanna get that checked out to see if it's specifically talking about "transcending" as you're implying, or something else.

^This too yeah, not because we don't trust you but because it's very easy to make mistakes especially when it comes to SM which I've discovered is unfortunately riddled with many mistranslations. So it'd be nice if we could get raws and possibly some of the translators here to look at them too.

 

[MeiouHades]

And if a direct statement isn’t good enough for you (along with everything else i have stated), then the guidelines state you can show transcendence by “A simple example being a realm that is stated to lack space, time and physicality entirely, but is nonetheless shown as being "vaster" than physical reality in some way”.

Also this part specifically irks me.

"Characters who lack spatiotemporal features entirely, while not actually being superior to them in nature. They are simply ontologically different from any dimensional construct, but can ultimately still be comparable to dimension-bound entities in terms of raw power."

You may ask where this is from, this is actually from the BDE Type 1 section. The statement you gave, lacking spatiotemporal features as your own statement states, is just BDE Type 1 at best. This also explains the extensive evidence you gave for its acausal nature, from the very next part of the section:

"Due to being aspatial and atemporal, they are obviously immune to conventional Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation, and since they are not part of the spacetime continuum, they usually have Acausality"
As I said, acausality doesn't help your case here anyway and is explained away by this.

Now, onto BDE Type 2 itself. Here's what the section starts with:

"Characters who exceed dimensionality, which may occur in the following ways"

As you can probably infer by yourself, lacking something is patently NOT the same as exceeding it or being entirely superior to it.

We can forget the first way to achieve it via a Von Neumann universe since that's not what you're arguing and focus on the second part instead.

"Through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence."

This is the part where you haven't done the work unfortunately, especially given the sheer lack of relevant scans to support this. This claim of mine (of proving superiority to all of space-time, etc) isn't out of thin air as the very next section would show:

"As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar."

And there it is.... the exact thing you haven't done here. Not only do I see no statement of being "above all dimensions" (in this context, all mathematical dimensions and such, so no the Tau Star System alone isn't enough proof), you have also NOT posted a statement or proven anything that indicates being above "All of space and time" like the standard itself states. So yeah, this is why your "direct" statements aren't enough for me, because they simply don't follow the standard that you claim they do

Also, thinking more on it. There's actually not even a single statement of the Cauldron itself either transcending all of space time or being above all dimensions. you just stated that it does simply because it created the star seed for the Tau Star System and the crystal that supposedly transcends space-time, no evidence of such a statement for the realm itself among other things. Are you sure this isn't just a verse-specific creation mechanic, because that's exactly what it looks like to me especially given the size problems that are already an anti-feat on their own.

Edit 2: Also, what evidence is there of the Cauldron creating the silver crystal? Is there actual evidence behind it that you didn't post or is it just an inference, and if it's the latter, what's it based off of?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Edit 2: Also, what evidence is there of the Cauldron creating the silver crystal? Is there actual evidence behind it that you didn't post or is it just an inference, and if it's the latter, what's it based off of?

I have marked you down for disagree and I am ending my responses to you. You are obviously not acting in good faith and I am not wasting my time. If you don't know the basic facts of sailor moon and refuse to actually read the scans provided, then don't comment on a higher tier thread where people have to discuss complex topics. You can either read the cosmology blog, or make a question thread to ask these basic questions about the series.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I'm seeing some stuff I'm not to sure on in this that I might get to later (maybe not, I don't have much of an interest in Sailor Moon), but for the mentions of transcending space and time, do you have the raws for it? Just wanna get that checked out to see if it's specifically talking about "transcending" as you're implying, or something else.

As a measure of good faith we will try to provide raws for the pages that mention transcending. However, note that we are using the newest official English translation that has been made available recently. Raws are difficult to get. Also we aren't implying anything. We are showing the scans as they are presented.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

I'm seeing some stuff I'm not to sure on in this that I might get to later (maybe not, I don't have much of an interest in Sailor Moon), but for the mentions of transcending space and time, do you have the raws for it? Just wanna get that checked out to see if it's specifically talking about "transcending" as you're implying, or something else.

I compiled the transcending statements you wanted the raws of (with the help of another user)

Also to clarify a lore related thing since this isn't extremely well known: "Space-Time" isn't always referring to the conventional scientific definition of Space-Time. In some cases it is also used to describe The Corridor of Space-Time. Sailor Pluto and others have consistently referred to the Corridor as just "Space-Time" on multiple occasions as you can read in the link I provided.

 

[Da3ggman]

I compiled the transcending statements you wanted the raws of (with the help of another user)

Thank you, I’ve put in a translation request to see exactly what they mean, specially by “transcend”. I think it best to tie up all possible loose ends like these before continuing, no?

 

[MeiouHades]

I have marked you down for disagree and I am ending my responses to you. You are obviously not acting in good faith and I am not wasting my time. If you don't know the basic facts of sailor moon and refuse to actually read the scans provided, then don't comment on a higher tier thread where people have to discus complex topics. You can either read the cosmology blog, or make a question thread to ask these basic questions about the series.

Okay, now THIS is a bad faith response. I have an idea of why you're doing this instead of responding to my questions or debating me, but I won't address that here. Instead I'll simply post this here to not only cement my disagreement but also the idea that Low 1-A Cauldron is simply an impossibility:

These scans right here basically state that the destruction of the galaxy will bring about the destruction of the Cauldron as well, already an anti-feat to a Low 1-A structure that is supposedly has Ontological superiority to all of lower reality. Not only that, but it's clearly stated that "a NEW Cauldron will spring into existence" somewhere else (presumably another galaxy), which is another anti-feat for a structure that supposedly predates everything including all dimensions (never proven or stated, btw).

So yeah, here's the summary so far:
1.) You haven't provided any evidence or information the silver crystal transcending all of space-time or being above all dimensions
2.) Even if you had the former statement, according to the BDE page itself such statements are ONLY Low 1-A by default when applied to an actual realm, and you've provided no such statement for the Cauldron itself, so such a statement (even if it did exist which it doesn't) would be useless for the silver crystal itself. You also have failed to prove how it exceeds or is superior to all dimensions entirely.
3.) You've failed to effectively refute the part about the Cauldron's size, and these scans above tell me exactly why. Proving without a shadow of a doubt that it's simply a space at the center of the galaxy with some strange properties, nothing more. Nothing about it's scale or size.
4.) Have no answers for the various anti-feats I've highlighted

So yeah, this crap ain't Low 1-A for anyone reading. OP has no actual evidence and their claims of following the BDE Type 2 standards fall apart when you realize they only quoted a small part of it in their post and when you actually read the page itself.

My argument isn't bad faith, it is directly attacking statements you've made and claims you've made with no evidence, opposing standards you assert that they follow, by pointing out the standards themselves and showing you how they don't follow it. If you refuse to engage and answer contentions then that is what's bad faith.