DollaZoon60097
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DC Comics Crisis Cosmology Scaling
- Thread starter The_2nd_Existential_Seed
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DollaZoon60097
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According to John Constantine Attack potency description I think he need to get an Upgrade to 1-A
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All these stuff needs evaulation from mods.
Aquaman (Post-Crisis)
Aquaman is the ruler of Atlantis and the Earth's oceans, an Atlantean with incredible strength and speed as well as the ability to command all sea-life. His unique physiology allows him to survive on land and at the ocean's greatest depths of pressure and temperature. Given the names Orin...vsbattles.fandom.com
Just to be 100% clear (pun intended), we are upgrading Aquaman to 1-A with The Clear, correct?
This has been accepted but it still hasn't been applied and this change would also affect most new52 (post-flashpoint pre-rebirth) characters since supes, ww ect. scales to new52 Anti Monitor.
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@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Excellence616 @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @Robo432343 @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @PrinceStories @Asterotheology @Zensum @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca @AerrowStorm1 @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Armorchompy @VeryGoofyToddler2
What do you think about the last post here?
What do you think about the last post here?
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Honestly, it feels inconsistent. Only BDE Type 2 characters should logically qualify for 1-A tier scaling.
PrinceofPein
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This is fine, but has the chain scaling been considered?
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Spectre and Neron both need to be changed. The latter’s justification for his AP includes him scaling to the Godsphere which is logically 1-A, and Spectre scales above him.
Spectre’s last key also needs to be changed since 1-C doesn’t exist in DeMatteis’ cosmology anymore, and that version of Spectre is above the former key (which is 1-A+) which uses a scan from the same comic as the last key. The scans used to justify for 1-C are also the ones used to justify the Presence being tier 0 in DeMatteis’ cosmology, so either make that 0 or get rid of the key.
Spectre’s last key also needs to be changed since 1-C doesn’t exist in DeMatteis’ cosmology anymore, and that version of Spectre is above the former key (which is 1-A+) which uses a scan from the same comic as the last key. The scans used to justify for 1-C are also the ones used to justify the Presence being tier 0 in DeMatteis’ cosmology, so either make that 0 or get rid of the key.
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I suggest just get rid of the key, literally appear for 1 panel and prolly not even a power up or form, Hal literally reform his body after that whole speech, it obviously just a ressurection feat. The actual abilities like dimensional manipalution not even related to the "form" it appear like 4 issue before that AFAIK.
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Obviously, the self-evident things should be adjusted.@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Excellence616 @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @Robo432343 @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @PrinceStories @Asterotheology @Zensum @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca @AerrowStorm1 @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Armorchompy @VeryGoofyToddler2
What do you think about the last post here?
As mentioned above any BDE(Type 2) adjustment should qualify as 1-A.
The Anti-Monitor thing was Elizio, so if he has time then he could fix it.
The rest that wants an upgrade would, in my opinion, require CRT only because it’s easier to formulate reasons and not so heavily reliant on chain-scaling.
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Yeah. That was overlooked.
I've stated several times that a 0 cannot have multiplicity nor individuality outside itself. So that key would just be the “Presence” fully and it wouldn't be “Spectre” at all since that “individual” would be merged as just the Presence purely. So key removal is best here, I consulted this with Ultima while back and he agree that the Spectre can't have that key.
I also saw your thread here. Emperor Joker is still in contention on which side he scales. However, I've said in the past unless it a story specific to one author, in this case, DeMatteis it’s nothing like his Spectre’s or Doctor Fate’s series where he has creative freedom of his own regardless of that one scan with Satanus. So he would be 1-A or 1-A+ for the Crisis Cosmology portion.
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I agreed with you from the beginning on this (as Spectre wouldn’t even be unique there in being the Presence at his most fundamental, that applies to every DC character DeMatteis has written), but at most to preserve Spectre’s “enlightenment” which is established after that state of Hal overcoming his inner-demons in Parallax (as established in that key) we ought to restructure the key involving his possession of Logoz IMO. This arguably could even range to be H1-A+ type 1 given its ability to work on God’s word and restructure the entirety of the world of dreams, and to note that key nominally indexes the Logoz and not necessarily Spectre as unified with God inherently. I can see the optimal strategy in keeping the structure of the profile intact inspired by Buddha from WoD if you want a specific example.
Mr. Mxyzptlk’s justification for 1-A+ uses Emperor Joker’s feats as the justification for scaling to the entire Godsphere anyways, so at a very minimum that should be corrected. I don’t have any personal opinion any which way if we should try to do any further compartmentalizations based on if DeMatteis was writing a specific comic either, but I could see why it would be overbearing and not worth the effort in this case (even if Joker in that instance would theoretically be H1-A+ type 1 if we’re going on what DeMatteis has elaborated upon there and in connection to his other works.) This is also relevant in Neron’s case, as DeMatteis also wrote him being able to arbitrarily access the dream-hierarchy in The Man of Tomorrow with his section of tie-in issues to that entire event. Your option of keeping them in line with the Crisis cosmology is the least sensational (and “safest”) I suppose.
On the other hand for Kansas Sighting and Willworld I could see separate keys being legitimate for Superman and Hal there given that he had his own creative freedom in those mini-series without having to be held in obligation to other authors in tie-in books. Hal there at minimum seems to also be able to arbitrarily scale the dream hierarchy based on his unity with the “Universal Will”, ditto for Superman and his relationship to that alien Jor-El figure.
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After a certain point I got tired of making sense of DeMatteis’s writing. That would require a CRT for sure that I would definitely be involved in, but I won't be the maker of it.
The Logoz thing would inherently be different than the Divine Presence merge thing. Since becoming God means one needs to dissolve all individuality and the only way to do that is to enter non-existence which is how Spectre was able to recall knowing that everything is just a mask hiding the face of the Creator.
Kansas Sighting and Willworld are very much viable as part of DeMatteis. This couldn't really be the case for the Emperor Joker storyline and the tie-ins with the Man of Tomorrow storyline. The latter portion is leaning on both edges, but I feel “Where Thy Sting” should be DeMatteis, purely. That story would “hugely” upscale Superman, but, it would require a different key even with all the All-In special nonsense about him and Darkseid.
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I might just revamp the Spectre profile independently since it does have a lot missing and is outdated (none of the scans are even cited). Your support would definitely be appreciated in the use of DeMatteis and his vision of Spectre. Although I don’t know when I’d specifically start on this.
Yes, but moreso my point was that the key in its actual form is separate from the Presence merging thing, it’s just that that’s the scan used to justify it. As again if I were to remake the profile based on DeMatteis’ version of Spectre I would make that two keys, type 1 H1-A+ for the Logoz specifically and type 2 for the Spectre as encapsulating creation and his enlightenment in unity with God, and this has precedence in the Buddha profile I linked to you earlier.
100%. Although Where is Thy Sting does tie into the issues DeMatteis did with Neron in terms of his view of Superman’s terminal function in his worldbuilding in some senses, so I wouldn’t be too opposed on justifying the key with Where is Thy Sting formally and using further substantiation in his other independent Superman issues, since those would give further evidence for his view of Superman as specific to his cosmology (as correspondingly All-In basically gives the view of Superman in the contemporary Crisis Cosmology.) DeMatteis’ JLA issues could definitely supplement this as well, but Hal and Clark as his two most “developed” big-superhero characters would probably deserve the most attention here.
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I don't even mind a different key for Hal Jordan, Superman, and Supergirl for DeMatteis solely. They were the leading characters in his dream-like Cosmology. I mean anything this writer touches makes them OP and he doesn't shy away from showing it.
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We have precedent in Franklin Richards for Marvel, also.
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It’s possible, but you would have to explain all possible worlds being only embodied by the Sea of Brahma and its avatar.
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Well, keep in mind that as DeMatteis says, it’s not “objective” or “subjective”, but “omnijective”. The Sea of Brahma, the “Oversoul” Parallax threw Hal into, and the “Void beyond Voids” Neron brought Superman to seem to be all the same concept DeMatteis was invariably playing with.
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What I was getting at was High 1-A+ or all possible worlds is embodied by the Sea of Brahma. Her avatars can casually use her own body to any extent which still aligns with High 1-A+ defintion. So, Spectre with those keys with the “+” is a little hard to explain when Pralaya already exists as those.
You can argue for Type 1, but that would mean Spectre at the very least in that level with the Logoz needs to be on the level of her avatars. Definitely can't be the Type 2 variant, that's reserved only for Pralaya’s true form.
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Basically my perspective would be that arbitrarily being able to scale the dream-hierarchy (which is all possible dreams) would be a slam-dunk type 1, and all theoretically are capable of this in terms of getting to a certain level of consciousness, in recognizing that everything is really the same thing with different masks, so being able to change the masks you have and become whatever you want to be as expressed in something like Willworld would be convincingly equivalent to being able to arbitrarily actualize any possible world, given that all possible “masks” are identical to all that God (a tier 0) can dream. Type 2 isn’t necessarily counterexclusive as in for example Marvel’s version of DeMatteis’ cosmology you have God’s dream being separately embodied by Oblivion and Adam Kadmon. Given DeMatteis’ entire message of omnijectivity and experimentation in dreams, you could accurately say that his views aren’t necessarily concrete about this, that there are even “sub-cosmologies” within his cosmology that are all interpretations of the same thing and are equally valid. His JLD and his Spectre run would be another expression of this phenomenon.
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There was a reason why I had to downgrade Franklin Richards from High 1-A+ to just an unlimited amount of meta-quality layers into High 1-A (yucky term) because when I consulted with Ultima, he said if “Oblivion was all possible worlds then Franklin Richards can't scale to him.” The reason why the Sea of Brahma got a pass was because her avatars are actualized versions of herself in a way that can create as many of these worlds as they want. After all, they are projections of the infinite nothingness that allows them to exist. Ultima agreed with that notion. If you want an example using WoD, the Supernal is High 1-A+(Type 2) with the Trait being High 1-A+ because they are the expressive and direct manifestation that can manipulate any part of the framework.
Here's the problem with Spectre or the dream-hierarchy:
- High 1-A+ are semantical tools and not a cosmological structure insofar as hierarchy goes. This is why High 1-A+(Type 1) are all treated as equals. So the Spectre would have to be equal to Pralaya’s avatar, but nothing sort of nothingness in its infinite vastness can counteract the Mahapralaya besides God, himself, and that's only God in his purest form. The only time we see this “God” is during Doctor Fate with the Smile Behind the Universe.
- I've thought about consulting with Ultima about the possibility of Vertigo receiving High 1-A+ besides the Void about each Creation being a possibility. The problem was the creators themselves are not contingent on beings of purely actuality that can manifest logical possibilities, but the Creation thing is all one thing that only contains nominal logistics. This applies to DeMatteis in the sense that he does say every thought creates a “new, different, and bigger world,” but those descriptions aren't entirely contingent upon the laws of thoughts despite the word “thought” being there. They're just simply worlds conjured by dreams that create another “layer” that has no end. High 1-A+ would rely on God at his most conceptual to actualize this as pure logical thing since he's not bound to any contradictions or truths where the Sea of Brahma is the framework from which all is actualized.
- So the only way I see it is if Creation entirely changes with a new layout that's not simply adding up or revising the old system with the same logic and structure but a few differences in worlds. So Spectre scaling above Creation is cool and all, but doesn't give him High 1-A+. DeMatteis also caps the entire High 1-A system. So, I don't think it makes much of a difference.
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I’m aware of this (and specifically Franklin being H1-A+ and it being reversed) even if it does create some inconsistency, it at minimum is some sort of compromise in order to stop the entire system from breaking, since DeMatteis’ framework isn’t necessarily that easy to formalize in interpretation. Still, the Supernal as H1-A+ type 2 would be identical to the Buddha’s true form in transcending the entirety of Samsara (also type 2), as technically from a meta-sense you can’t even have a specific name for the summum genus (H1-A+ as “all possible worlds”) lest you do a logical operation on it and cause it to be self-defeating. In this sense it shares some similarities to tier 0 in its unknowability and inability to be multiplied, which is why Franklin as a separate being couldn’t possibly operate on Oblivion’s level lest Oblivion wasn’t H1-A+ either, yet that wouldn’t be the case for two H1-A+ characters which really are the same thing, just two different names which really aren’t actual logical operations at all but ways for us to understand it in some analogical meta-way.
Ditto for this, but nothing posited above by me would contradict this, as positing multiple type 1 H1-A+ characters wouldn’t contradict anything, and I admit that even if you posit multiple “interpretations” of a type 2 (just like you can with a 0) it wouldn’t be in conflict with the indomitability of a type 2 by anything other than a 0. I should also note that there wouldn’t be any conflict here anyways as Spectre and Pralaya never interacted, and technically as everything is technically the same thing anyways in consciousness due to DeMatteis’ pantheism, everything is additionally really equal in all possible worlds, no matter which possible world any character can “select” based on their individual evolution of consciousness.
I don’t have anything to say about this except saying that you’re right in that if God was separated from the cosmology, H1-A+ would itself become harder, in that having a God which “bypasses” the requirements by already having a tier 0 does most of the work in proving a H1-A+, but if we admit that the totality of existence is identical to God’s dreams (which are admitted to be H1-A+), then being able to arbitrarily jump between dreams is itself identical to H1-A+ type 1 in only being limited by the internal laws of the tier 0 to begin with, which would be isomorphic with the three laws of thought in general classical theism. It is definitively the case, though, that for DeMatteis’ idea for reality neither being objective or subjective, but all possible interpretations existing, with each thought corresponding to a different universe, would independently qualify for something like a modal realism even without a tier 0, but the tier 0 as the thing dreaming this entire thing up makes it entirely more robust to begin with without needing to pull deeper into analytic philosophy.
I don’t disagree that changing the entirety of creation wouldn’t be H1-A+ in that even if that creation was seen as H1-A+ prior, it wouldn’t even be that any longer due to actually being a logical operation demarcating it as just being something in another possible world. But that wouldn’t be the justification I would use for type 1 to begin with, rather a combination of Spectre, JLA, and Willworld being that in “imaginal space” (which is the space of all possible dreams and thoughts) you can arbitrarily create your own realm only limited by imagination and will, selecting any realm dependent on imagination from the space represented in God’s dream (which would be all possible worlds as said before). You can also supplement this with the evidence of the Emperor Joker issue DeMatteis wrote as stated before.
If you want to continue this we can in DMs (as this is technically beyond the denomination of this thread), if only for continuing the plans for the current cosmologies, as I think you and I can both agree they’re not perfect yet.
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DC Preview: New History of the DC Universe #1
LEARN THE DEFINITIVE HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE!
aiptcomics.com
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Waid is ill-equipped for big cosmology stuff I think. Both Hickman and Ewing are allegedly coming over to DC in 2026 once they’re done with X-Men and Thor respectively so maybe we have to wait for them to start sorting stuff out more coherently, because this is still rather simplistic.DC Preview: New History of the DC Universe #1
LEARN THE DEFINITIVE HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE!
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At least they mentioned Lucifer Morningstar. I thought Neil still had full rights to his creations, but apparently, DC still owns most. I mean, they kinda have to since unless you're doing a creator-owned stories then the characters belong to the company and not the writers.
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Waid is mostly okay. Ewing can likely handle it well. Hickman would likely just turn DC Comics into a thoroughly toxic, existentially and morally nihilistic, unlikeable and disgusting mess, like he did with Marvel Comics, and be a far bigger bull in a china shop disaster than Bendis in that regard. He might come to cause more damage than even Dan Didio did for all that we know.
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Ewing is already a fact (he's writing absolute Green Lantern), but Hickman? I haven't heard anything about him coming to DC
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So, couldn't we use this threat to discuss what tiering changes with confirmation that Crisis and Veritgo share the same universe now ? It's still Crisis.
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You can but the specific threads with the contents in the OP will be published as CRT.
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The main content would just be removing the Low 1-A Material Realm, an upgrade to the Sphere of the Gods realms, and merging the Void and the Great Darkness.
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Why would the Low 1-A realm be removed? And what would the SotG be upgraded to?
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Ewing and Hickman leaving huh. tough
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1. The Low 1-A is going to be filtered down to just High 1-C for the material world that isn't counting the explicate order which is 1-A+.
2. Sphere of the Gods will be High 1-A.
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Oh my God... Honestly, I'm really happy.
I hope I didn't misunderstand...
Is Darkseid going to get an upgrade?
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We’ll see.
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All profiles will have to be revamped a bit. Totally going to be fun….
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Is there anyone who can help you with editing the profiles?
Because there are a lot of profiles, and it makes the work harder.
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If the revision is accepted then I’ll outline how the wording should be for the profiles.
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Neato!
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