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This is true tbh, and would be consistent with the Rela calc, too.
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DELTARUNE; Chapter 3 & 4 !!!SPOILER!!! Discussion Thread
- Thread starter ShockingPsychic
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Gooldiddy
She/Her- 95
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so would that be like "Lightspeed attack speed via Lasermode" on Thrash Machine's profile? (assuming it's accepted)
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Probably ye.
Gooldiddy
She/Her- 95
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speaking of Thrash Machine
how do we all feel about downscaling the Fun Gang from it? p sure it would get them like MCB which is pretty neat (and some other Thrash feats like missile dodging which I'm pretty sure gets like mach 7 based on another site's calc for it) (Idk if these topics have been brought up before lol)
how do we all feel about downscaling the Fun Gang from it? p sure it would get them like MCB which is pretty neat (and some other Thrash feats like missile dodging which I'm pretty sure gets like mach 7 based on another site's calc for it) (Idk if these topics have been brought up before lol)
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Downscaling them from the thrash machine would defeat the purpose of why the thrash machine existed in the first place.
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I do not think they have anything remotely suggesting so, they were easily defeated by a GIGA Queen who says she's been holding back as well, and needed the Thrash Machine to even make her consider going all-out.
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Interesting though, mind sending it?
LittleGuy99
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lol
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Ah, that's a bit better.
I think it's kinda wack to take an unrelated idle animation at a constant speed, and scale it to the fastest animation that isn't 0 frames. Like, at least have it be something like a character dodging or moving in the same space as such an animation. But ye, it doesn't have that glowing issue.
Don't remember the Thrash Machine thing.
Zapper laser doesn't meet our standards.
That moving around the glowing soul is absolutely just it shining in different directions like a disco ball. A spoke of light rotating around the object it's sourced from does not do so at the speed of light, that's not how light works. It moves in the direction it was emanated in at the speed of light. If it did curve around like that, that would be an anti-feat against it being real according to our standards page.
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You said THIS EXACT SHIT with Vulkin yet look where we are.
You're becoming a bit boring with "standard page" this and "not enough" that, use actual arguments instead of this super boring broken disc things, thanks.
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"This violates our general standards" is an actual argument on this website.
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Yet it failed at fully downgrading MHS+ UT. Maybe stuff is less strict than you think it is, we don't live in absolutes like that after all.
The calc would be calculating the rotation compared to how fast the light comes out of the SOUL, rather than the light itself rotating (don't think it's gonna be above Sub-Rela anyway).
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Meh, our standards for lightning are a lot more vague and loose than our ones for light.
Ahh okay.
But looking at that frame by frame, it seems like each "spoke" comes out in one frame. It kinda looks like parts are growing in full speed, but going frame-by-frame, it's entirely new spokes being added, one frame at a time. ig there is the stuff at the end, but that is brightening from an already lit state, so it has that issue. And even then, so much light covers the screen I don't think we can really tell how far they moved.
So I don't think it'd work.
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The point still stands. While I do not think that just being a beam that happens to be called a "laser" is enough, with enough context (like elaboration on its nature) and no real contradictions is enough to be such. What is exactly the contradiction for Zapper being light-speed? Because all of your counters are just nitpicks and being strict just because you like being so.
You over-relying on standards is fallacious because it's been proved that people can indeed circumvent them if enough proof and context is given, and no amount of "but it's not supported!" is gonna change what happened here multiple times.
This sounds like incredulity tbh. Characters can indeed talk while moving in tandem with light (otherwise we'd have to nuke Silver Chariot's MFTL feat but we ain't doing that obviously), so what's the issue lmao?
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Actually looking back on the evidence I think I made the claim too strongly. I think I'd more land as neutral, looking back at the evidence today. I'll edit my comment on the blog, and can edit my previous comments here if you wish.
Anyway, full writeup here.
tl;dr there's two weak bits of positive evidence, the mention of infrared in associated battle text, and the enemies clearly being designed based off of remotes, and the attack coming from the part of their designed based on an LED bulb.
And bit of potential weak negative evidence, they reflect off the attack bounding box, changing colours as they do so, turning red off the bottom, blue off the top, able to switch directly between the two. That just doesn't happen IRL, but this sort of thing isn't included on the list, so it might be too weak to truly be disqualifying.
I didn't mean "spoke" as in characters talking, I meant "spoke" as in "a line projecting from a central point".
You can pretend I used the word "ray" instead, it'd have the same meaning.
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Bro you talk about a battle box with no real properties and the color shit literally is not a disqualifier, why would varying colors be against it, wtf.
Then I don't see any issue, because the point of the calc is still them moving around to comparable speed to said emanations.
Just use frame-by-frame to see how much one moves in a single frame and the issue is solved.
I'd use more the comparison between the SOUL moving and Pumpkin moving to the emanations just like the Tsunderplane does here.
The idle animations thingy are just supportive at best rather than main feats. I'd have mostly likely disagreed if those were the main feats (as game mechanics can be argued), but if you've got genuine feats then why not?
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,643
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Ya said yourself that the standards are less strict when the characters "are already close to light speed," the existence of that new Relavistic calc certainly makes it consistent.
I'd say them being actual remotes in reality is more than just being based off of remotes/LED bulbs tbh
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I mean, they're not just "based on remotes", they ARE remotes. The entire point of Darkners is them being common objects transformed in sentient creatures.
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Well yeah, it has no real properties.
It's able to go in through one side of it without being reflected. We see dozens of other attacks go through it so it's seemingly not something solid. Why is it reflecting off a weird non-physical restriction on the SOUL's movement?
Since that's not really how the colour of a laser can change.
Sure, a white laser can reflect off a surface, the surface absorbs all colours except for blue/red, but if it reflects again it shouldn't be able to transmute into that colour at the same brightness. At best it'd end up wayyyy darker, as only the trace amounts of the second colour left over from earlier could be reflected.
And hey, you think both of these are weak? Me too! I've been clear about that since the start. But the positive evidence is also quite weak.
That doesn't work.
If something moves from A to B, then stops, and its A to B movement was in one frame, then something else moving from C to D in a frame does not give you a comparable speed. It could have moved from A to B in 1/1000th of a frame. Movement has to be multi-frame to be compared.
idk what you're talking about.
The pumpkins at the bottom have stopped moving by the time that brightening starts.
The SOUL doesn't move until the brightening has reached its full extent.
And Jackenstein itself doesn't move, just has the laughing idle animation and a fade in (accompanying the light increasing).
There could easily be something I'm missing, but from the stuff I've noticed, there's nothing else moving with this other than the laugh animation.
Which one?
Yeah there's definitely a better way to word it.
But they, as Darkners, aren't literally remotes. Lancer, Rouxls, etc. aren't literally made of card stock in the Dark World. The Zappers, in the real world, correspond to remotes, but in the Dark World, they're monsters with designs inspired by them.
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I am just saying that given it lacking any real properties it should not be used neither as a supportive nor an opposing point as that'd go in assumption.
My man you have in a good amount of fictional works SoL beams just changing colors because of just aestetics, and somehow now it's bad?
Oh come the **** on:
- 1st your issue is this "but light rotating is not light speed!"
- Then your issue now is this frame thing which makes no sense as they're still moving at comparable speeds
And this is a debunk despite it being stated to be infrated beams because? Idk it's becoming just a "it's not because I say so" with elaborated wordings at this point.
Eden_Warlock99
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I don’t think we even treat the Battle Box as an in-universe construct, more like a metaphysical representation of the battlefield.
So, the lasers were reflecting off whatever happened to be present in the environment at the time.
Also, changing colors is something lasers do, so the issue is literally just the color tint, which feels, you know, incredibly minor?
So, the lasers were reflecting off whatever happened to be present in the environment at the time.
Also, changing colors is something lasers do, so the issue is literally just the color tint, which feels, you know, incredibly minor?
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Fair enough.
If they change colour in unrealistic ways, then I think that is a weak amount of evidence against regardless of the series.
Perhaps those other verses have stronger supporting evidence? idk, I didn't evaluate them.
When I thought you were arguing one thing, but it turned out you were arguing a different thing, my argument had to change accordingly.
That's how discussions generally work. A point that was previously thought irrelevant is now relevant, and so merits a response.
That reason is why we can't scale characters to things that happen, in their entirety, in a single frame.
In other cases, if we're scaling the one-frame thing to something else, then we don't assume it could be faster, because we're calculating the minimum needed to perform that feat; if we allowed it to be faster, they could go arbitrarily high.
In other cases, if we're scaling multi-frame things, it's unreasonable to assume that it could've been way faster in one frame, because we see the multi-frame sequence where it takes longer.
I think you're arguing in good faith, but you pepper comments like these which make it seem like you have a very negative view of me that isn't based on reality.
We simply have different standards of evidence, which is fine, everyone does, but instead you view every action of mine in the worst possible light.
If we disagree, you go "Oh of course you're LYING to DOWNPLAY."
If we agree on something being low, you go "Oh of course, anyone would agree with this, a broken clock's right twice a day."
If we agree on something being high, you go "Oh of course, the evidence was so damning you couldn't even PRETEND it's lower."
I do not have a hateboner for whatever verses you think I do.
I spend orders of magnitude more time planning downgrades for verses with a fraction of the battleboarding relevance Toby Fox's games have.
I know people far more strict than me in terms of accepting things. I believe they're acting in good faith.
I know people far more loose than you in terms of accepting things. I believe they're acting in good faith.
Why do you keep extending me hostility? Is there anything I could do to stop you from acting that way?
It's not a debunk. I said I was neutral on the beams being usable as SoL. I was just pointing out how the evidence isn't as strong as, say, light being sourced from a literal camera.
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I do think that the thing being a remote, it using infrated beams that are even called lasers in the files is already good enough evidence to say it's SoL.
The thing is that there's no real reason to just say "hey it actually could've reached that in way less than a frame", it's the first time we do this ever.
That's likely on me, I just think you're being a bit too pedantic for my taste and a tad bit conservative even for stuff that is generally fine, at least in my view.
Like I don't like using this much mental gymnastics over otherwise simple things for the sake of scrutinity, imo there's a limit to how much stuff can be scrutizined. I do think that obviously taking the highest end for everything is bad, but you seem to also the opposite which is just as bad.
I am not even trying to be mean here, I am just thinking that imo you're being a bit too hard on these feats, and you should try to let it loose if stuff is simple enough. Like if a beam is stated to be light, is fired from a realistic-ish source, and has almost no contradictions if you exclude minor things that do not impact the behavior that much, imo it's SoL due to just the potrayal.
My issue here is that at a certain point you'd have to take things like they're potrayed rather than going at checking at detail every single point, as imo going at a wider view of everything at once considered is better as it gives context.
We see Darkners behaving as the objects they're based on as they ARE said objects, you see them using attacks based on their real-world function, and we even have:
- The thing being stated to be an "infrated photo shoot" when we're faced with the photo guy, implying they've of a similar nature.
- It increasing the volume of the attacks when you increase the volume
- It turning off when you do so to it, and it having actual buttons.
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Speaking loosely, that's quite reasonable. When initially seeing the blog, I had my view more in that direction, but when I read the standards page, and it said:
I struggle to see it even meeting the bare minimum. And when many of these are phrased pretty harshly (not just reflecting off of mirrors, they have to explicitly be non-magical), I thought it was in the spirit of them to not accept something like this.
Then I saw the infrared thing, which could plausibly meet the third criteria, with the fourth lightly being met by them being remotes. Which now has me at neutral.
As a staff member I don't feel I can just "let it loose". I gotta stick to the rules, or revise them. And the rules don't really say stuff about general portrayal like that.
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My man, the beam literally meets 3 standards:
- (Maybe) the realistic way, as it moves in a straight line, outside when it bounces on the battle box, and yourself have admitted that's not a disqualifier given its unknown nature.
- It is stated to be made of the nature of light given that it's stated to be infrated while also comparable to the flash of the photo guy.
- The Darkner thing is literally the fourth, arguing against it has no basis beyond incredulity and goes against the blatant intent, you can't call it a fake infrated ray when the Dark World stuff is already fake to begin with.
When I said potrayal, I meant the whole "it meets a bit of crierias and has generally no real contradiction".
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The legitimacy of the relativistic feats, I believe.
Anyways, I suggest that Strym needs to calm down. I know he's getting angry, but at least try to remain civil.
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Speaking of that I think I've found the issue Agnaa was speaking of.
Basically, if you imagine X running, and in the next frame a torch is light up, both the X and the light from the torch have reached different distances, but ofc X did not run at Relativistic speeds or something.
On this I meant the little light emanations that are constantly emitted, with the pumpin being relative to them in speed.
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I am honestly really intrigued to see how these new chapters may change Kris, Susie, and Ralsei in terms of power.
I feel like at bare minimum being able to fight and directly take on the Titan could scale them to what we see in the prophecy- the emergence of the Titan coinciding with the Earth crumbling and all- but the Titan being the embodiment of the Fountain seems like it should grant even bigger scaling.
I feel like at bare minimum being able to fight and directly take on the Titan could scale them to what we see in the prophecy- the emergence of the Titan coinciding with the Earth crumbling and all- but the Titan being the embodiment of the Fountain seems like it should grant even bigger scaling.
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Currently seeing Multi-Solar System Scaling with the titan.
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Oh, that's pretty cool.
Just a matter of if most people buy it enough for it to go on the profiles.
I know some would question how it'd work that they can go from taking damage from common enemies to taking on the Titan, but I feel like we've seen weirder examples of escalation.
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I think that can be dismissed as just game mechanics here tbf.
LittleGuy99
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Titans emerge from dark fountains, they hatch from fountains, when a titan is defeated the fountain disappears
It makes sense
It makes sense
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Multi-Solar System Level everything. Do not care!!!!!
LittleGuy99
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Real
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4-A Dummy on its way to one shot the whole Underground:
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Also given that reloading gives new dialogue for the Voice when you are fighting the knight, i think we can re-implement the SAVE immortality Kris had at one point
LittleGuy99
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And what do we do with this?
- Status
