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Satoru Gojo (The Honored One) Vs Makima (The Control Devil) (Jujutsu Kaisen Vs Chainsaw Man) [49-37-7]

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GunshyFever said:
Alright, I'm going to be the one to write Makima's win cons. Feel free to respond however you like or debunk them, since there's a chance I may or may not be active in this thread. I'll go through this bit by bit.

Important note - Makima can also use the abilities of those under her influence, whether they are alive or deceased, even if the abilities originate from devils they had contracts with. Meaning once she takes control of a devil, she can use that devil’s abilities as her own, even after their death, as shown in the scans above. (This is one her profile) So please keep this in mind for the takes below.​


Makima's wincons​

1) Biological Manipulation -

Makima can mess with Gojo's internal organs, including critical ones like the brain. This can severely disrupt his ability to use RCT, focus during battle and formulate strategies, causing him to underperform and not fight at his full potential. This ability is rarely used a, but given that she's aware of Gojo’s threat level, it’s more likely she'll use the stronger version of this technique, a focused point attack.

Just to clarify: this is not accepted as "Bang," and in general, it should not be confused with "Bang." Now, this ability spontaneously explodes or severely disrupts the target's internal organs from the inside out. In the Chainsaw Man universe, it was powerful enough to harm the Darkness Devil, a Primal Fear. That alone implies Gojo is in serious danger if he gets hit by this, potentially resulting in instant death or at least incapacitation.

Makima tends to reserve this technique for powerful opponents like Primal Fears, as seen in her fight against the Darkness Devil, where it hindered him significantly. It's a real possibility that Gojo's high status would prompt Makima to use this win con to kill him or push him to the brink of death and utilize her Conquest. And no, Gojo "refreshing his mind" won’t help. Makima’s Conquest is supernatural and not tied to the brain in specific, it cannot be nullified by simply refreshing his brain with RCT and character's like Reze have done the same where they explode their brains, but still remain under the influence of Conquest.

2) BFR (Hell Devil ver) -

The Hell Devil does not require physical contact to remove opponents from the battlefield, which makes it especially useful. Simply removing Gojo bypasses the problem of Infinity, turning the obstacle and its source into a single issue that can be quickly resolved. Makima can achieve this by either forcing her Conquest ability onto the Hell Devil to make it do her bidding, as she typically does or by sacrificing multiple Devil Hunters, with the latter being the more reliable method.

This ability has a moderate chance of being used. Once Makima realizes she can’t harm Gojo with her primary attacks, such as "Bang," which is generally accepted as a form of telekinetic force, she may opt to remove the problem entirely by summoning the Hell Devil to drag Gojo into Hell, effectively neutralizing him.

2.1) BFR (Hell Devil + Princi) -

To make the ability execute more smoothly and efficiently, Makima can send Princi to Hell and order her to summon Gojo through one of her zippers. This makes the BFR far safer and more effective, minimizing the risk of pressured or tampered by Gojo.

2.2) BFR (Eternity Devil) -

This strategy is essentially a more refined version of the Prison Realm, think of it as Prison Realm 2.0 with bug fixes. All Makima needs to do is lure Gojo into a structure, such as a building or other infrastructure. She can do this using her animal manipulation abilities. Through lower lifeforms like a pack of rats, she can travel between locations and use them as mediums to lure Gojo into a chosen spot.

Once Gojo enters the targeted location, Makima can set up a trap using the Eternity Devil. She can then escape via her interdimensional travel while Gojo becomes trapped in a space similar to the Prison Realm, where he can be left to die. Notably, Makima can also prevent the Eternity Devil from revealing itself, as seen in the aquarium arc.

This ability has a moderate chance of being used, roughly on par with the Hell Devil tactic. If Makima realizes she can't deal with Gojo’s Infinity directly, she’s likely to lean into her versatility in her controlled abilities to remove him from the fight altogether.

3) Organic Manipulation -

This ability allows Makima, after drawing blood from her hand, to grow a mold inside Gojo's body, one that cannot be healed or regenerated. This serves as either an instant win con or a massive hindrance to Gojo’s focus, physical condition and overall performance.

Makima can also use this ability more creatively by directing her minions through this devil to grow mold in Gojo’s body from multiple angles, overwhelming him. This coordinated internal assault would ultimately result in Gojo’s death.

The likelihood of this ability being used is comparable to her other options for the same reason.

4) Cosmo -

Makima can give Gojo a taste of an All-Out Halloween, which, depending on the range, can either momentarily or permanently incapacitate him. If Gojo gets up close and personal with Makima, a single Halloween may be enough to affect him, albeit with reduced likely reduced effect. At longer range, the ability requires more time to charge, but guarantees total and permanent incapacitation, hence the term All-Out Halloween.

Unlike Makima’s other abilities, where she can creatively employ various minions through contracts, this technique is unique. It is solely exceptional to Cosmo and Makima, as it cannot be accessed through a standard devil contract. The change of it being used is the same as the others. Morso as a final rebound if needed.

Makima's Advanatges​

1) Reactions & Perception Advantage -
With speed equalization, the rules explicitly state:

Makima's combat speed is High Hypersonic+ (Mach 81.48), while her reaction speed scales massively above Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1390.67). Gojo's combat and reaction speed is listed at Mach 2.86.

This makes her reaction speeds alone 17x faster than Gojo's. So even under speed equalization, Makima's reaction speed is scaled down by the same multiplier as her combat speed.

Plus, Makima's Automatic Precognition, which allows her to see a few seconds into the future, grants her a tactical advantage. Not only can she predict Gojo’s next moves and react accordingly, but she can also perceive his actions before he even performs them, turning him into an open book.

2) Tactical Approach & Clairvoyance -
As stated on her profile:

In short, once Makima becomes aware of Gojo's status and realizes that controlling him directly isn’t viable, she will work from the shadows to analyze him and gauge the scope of his abilities. She’ll rely on her minions to observe strength and capabilities. Makima is an exceptionally quick and perceptive thinker whom is capable of formulating strategies and improvising with her powers in real time, as demonstrated during her fight with the Gun Devil.

And before anyone says anything: no, she did not prepare for that fight. There was no pre-battle planning for the initial takedown of the Gun Devil. What was actually prepared was the plan for Aki to become the vessel, having the Gun Devil’s corpse placed in his body and sent straight to Denji’s front door. That was orchestrated, not the battle itself.

So, once Makima has a solid understanding of Gojo’s mechanics, she will return to the battlefield and actively pursue him using her wide arsenal of options.

Also worth noting: Makima can read minds.
As stated on her profile:

She can eventually figure Gojo out, his abilities, how they work all through his own memories.

3) Enhanced Senses -
As stated on her profile:

With this, it’s clear that Makima effectively has all eyes on Gojo, constantly aware of his location and actions, whether through her own awareness or via her controlled minions. This constant surveillance allows her to anticipate and counter Gojo's strategies in real time.

Makima's Resistances​

1) Infinite Void -
As her profile states:

Prop's for resisting a stronger infinite void.

Conclusion​

Everything above outlines the various ways Makima can achieve victory. You're free to respond or debate these points using Gojo's abilities and showings, but based on the information provided, it's clear to me that Makima holds the tactical advantage, along with a versatile range of win cons and controlled abilities as well as a perception advantage.

For these reasons, I'm casting my vote for Makima.
Click to expand...
Razor said:
Since people will likely not be reading 12 pages of yap just to vote. The summary is that:
Makima's main wincon is biological manipulation, which could kill Gojo.
Gojo's wincon is just about anything in his arsenal. HP, Red, Max blue, Base blue as all of it will one shot Makima.

Makima would land her attack first because of her superior reaction speed and precognition but Gojo could survive her attack for a few seconds, Red and blue would instantly kill Makima however.
There's also the factor of if Makima would even start with the Bio hax in the first place. I say it isn't likely, Gunshy says otherwise. Our reasonings are above
Click to expand...
Page 17 bump for Makima and Gojo’s win cons
 
Tuxidoe_Redo said:
Two which is makima and toji. Other three slappin Deku
Click to expand...
yuta nor kenny, till JJK AP gets upgraded or something, can damage deku (besides yuta's thin-icebreaker but my next point makes that moot) and he speed blitzes. The vestiges protect deku from mahito and can even kill him (not joking)
 
Genuine question rq. Wiki Base Deku (no OFA just his extra quirks) Vs the anti sukuna squad. Who wins this
 
Anonymous_Learner said:
if final act, base deku genuenily speed blitzes all of them and tanks everything they do
Though, they have some win cons (soulsplit katana, ectera)
Click to expand...
Or the executioner sword if he’s somehow granted the death penalty via this LOL

My-Hero-Academia-World-Heroes-Mission.jpg
 
I've said before in DMs that Deku committing mass murder is wildly out of character and Higuruma would know if Deku did it or not upon using his DE
 
Catbowtie said:
Tbh that's no different from the military killing dangerous people. It's not like Deku was out there committing war crimes
Click to expand...
Nope but would possibly come up in the domain and Deku possibly confesses
(Trying to give this the benefit of the doubt since, without these things for the executioner sword, He gets confiscation and takes Deku CE [verse equalization a bit so they can put him in domains] which sucks for them since Deku doesn't use ce anyway and now they can put him in domains because no ce. Even if we want to say it takes one of his quirks, it doesn't really matter since he doesn't need them for the most part)
 
Alright here we go.
LaserPrecision said:
I'm ngl, healing even the pointing bio-manip isn't that difficult. No one has quantified the damage it inflicts. Only that it is more lethal than being stabbed in the brain (Which doesn't mean it inflicts more damage btw. You can be more lethal without inflicting the same amount of damage when one literally involves blood pooling inside of an encased wound that basically floods your brain). Hakari literally RCT'd from part of his brain ******* EXPLODING from a lightning strike and simply blew it out of his nose. Maki alone has mid passive regen, and she can heal organ/internal damage in a little over 5 minutes. Someone might say Hakari's RCT is an exception, but IIRC, there's a statement that his RCT is only faster in spee, not in actual potency than top tiers like Sukuna and Gojo (And even then Gojo's is so fast he can RCT from millions of slashes hitting his body a second).

So I'm not really convinced unquantifiable damage that causes people to bleed out their nose and mouth (Seriously, nosebleeds can be caused by a LOT of stuff) is more destructive than statements of people regenerating a chunk of their brain after destroying it, being stabbed in the brain by a knife, and being actively blown up by lightning.

Personally can't see Gojo not killing Makima by just spawning Blue on her instantly, which he can do. Reaction speed is how quickly you can react to something (hence the name), not act. Being 10+x faster doesn't mean she can run through tens of options before Gojo can do one thing. It means she can react to his attacks. However, she won't have the time to do that because she literally can't see his attacks, and he can spawn blue directly on her with a thought. She's not reacting to that icl.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we did quantify the damage it inflicts. Going over the discussion, we agreed that it was based on a cerebral hemorrhage.

In these panels, we see the yakuza freeze mid punch, his face then followed by fountains of blood surging from his nostrils and mouth as Makima stares at him. The injury must be entirely internal and must occur high enough in the head or neck to send blood out of both the nasal passages and the oropharynx. The most accurate clinical analogue is a sudden intracranial vessel rupture, either a large intraparenchymal bleed (a type of stroke where blood leaks into the brain tissue itself).

Given the fact that the yakuza is left limp and unresponsive rather than instantly dead, what most closely matches is a ruptured cerebral artery that produces a large volume subarachnoid haemorrhage.
Which I already explain here:
GunshyFever said:
In real world neurosurgery, a spontaneous or trauma induced intracerebral hemorrhage actually is far deadlier than a knife track that simply pierces the brain.
When an artery ruptures inside the cranial vault it releases pressurized blood into soft neural tissue that has almost nowhere to go. The expanding clot raises intracranial pressure within minutes which squashes adjacent brain structures, shuts off capillary perfusion and can force the brainstem downward in a terminal herniation cascade. Even if the initial bleed is modest, biochemical toxicity from iron, thrombin and glutamate sets off hours to days of secondary edema and cell death throughout the surrounding parenchyma.
Click to expand...
Now we're focusing on what this causes (aka more in depth explanation), which is a subarachnoid haemorrhage. So try to picture your brain wrapped in three thin layers. Between the middle layer called the arachnoid membrane and the innermost layer that hugs the brain lies a narrow fluid filled cushion known as the subarachnoid space. That fluid called cerebrospinal fluid, acts like shock absorbing water which keeps the brain from banging against the skull. Sometimes, a blood vessel in a loop of arteries at the base of the brain develops a weak berry shaped bulge called a saccular or "berry" aneurysm. If that bulge suddenly bursts, fast moving arterial blood jets into the subarachnoid space, mixing with the cerebrospinal fluid and sharply raising the pressure inside the skull, known as intracranial pressure. People may pass out or develop trouble moving or speaking and sometimes experience seizures. Doctors call this whole event a subarachnoid hemorrhage which is a medical emergency because the rising pressure and loss of blood flow can damage the brain within minutes.

What makes Makima’s "bio stare" much deadlier than any real world subarachnoid hemorrhage is that she strips away every natural brake the human body or a trauma team normally has. In real life, the danger starts with an existing weakness. For example, a berry aneurysm has to form over years before it can burst. Makima skips that waiting period by instantaneously rupturing a vessel that was perfectly healthy seconds earlier. It's lethal because it unleashes the worst case version of a subarachnoid haemorrhage all at once and with no time for the body or doctors to fight back. When an intracranial artery tears, pressurized blood explodes into the subarachnoid space faster than cerebrospinal fluid can drain away. Pressure inside the skull skyrockets, squeezing the entire brain as if it were caught in a vice. Within seconds that pressure forces the lower part of the brain (the brainstem, the switchboard for breathing, heart rate and consciousness) downward through a fixed bony opening. It's called herniation and it cuts off the brain stem’s own blood supply and short circuits its life support, the victim stops breathing and the heart soon follows.

Alright, so now I quantified the damage it inflicts, what else?

You bring up the point of Hakari healing his brain, but that’s an entirely different context. Kashimo’s lightning chars a coin sized patch of Hakari’s cerebral cortex, it’s a surface burn plus some localized necrosis judging from the panel. The rest of his intracranial pressure, blood flow and autonomic centers remain normal, so as long as his jackpot keeps pumping, he can knit that patch back together. He ONLY heals because of the jackpot otherwise, anyone hit with this would die instantly and wouldn’t be able to use RCT at all. Especially considering he healed it in the moment, which requires regen speed and as you said, Gojo and Sukuna plausibly would not or could not match that speed when healing a similar brain injury.

Meanwhile, Makima ruptures a deep midline artery, floods the entire subarachnoid space in milliseconds, spikes intracranial pressure and causes herniation. When the medulla is starved of blood, breathing halts. Five-ish mins later, every neuron is dead.

Also, you have a misconception about reaction speed, so I'll just link you back to what I told Razor:
GunshyFever said:
Let me break it down for you. Reaction speed, according to the speed page, refers to how fast a character can respond to an event or action. It usually only allows for a short movement in reaction.

Makima moving her finger still qualifies as a "short" movement. While the examples given are mostly about dodging feats, the reverse actions aren’t exempt, short deliberate movements in response to an attack still count as reaction speed. Whether it's ducking your head out of the way or moving your hand to catch a bullet, it all falls under the same category.

In this case, it’s simply Makima moving her arm a few inches to trigger an attack on Gojo. It's just being able to act faster than the opponent. And in this scenario, that’s a 17x speed advantage in her favor. Gojo would lose the quick draw.
Click to expand...
And don’t forget, the ability Makima uses is far worse than the bio stare. See here:
GunshyFever said:
Alright, let me try give you a scenario. Look at the scene where Makima takes out 4 opponents with the bio stare, they each drop dead individually right? This suggests that Makima can only focus on one simulated brain at a time. But with the Darkness Devil, instead of taking minimal damage over several seconds like the others, he just slumps over as multiple faces erupt with blood instantaneously.

This clearly shows that it’s a single attack that spreads out, hence the instantaneous damage and reaction in Darkness’s case. You can even see him slumped in a puddle of blood from how much he lost.
Click to expand...
Was planning to respond to your response to my wincons but I'm having a headache so ill probably do it later.
 
Last edited:
GunshyFever said:
Alright here we go.

Yeah, we did quantify the damage it inflicts. Going over the discussion, we agreed that it was based on a cerebral hemorrhage.

In these panels, we see the yakuza freeze mid punch, his face then followed by fountains of blood surging from his nostrils and mouth as Makima stares at him. The injury must be entirely internal and must occur high enough in the head or neck to send blood out of both the nasal passages and the oropharynx. The most accurate clinical analogue is a sudden intracranial vessel rupture, either a large intraparenchymal bleed (a type of stroke where blood leaks into the brain tissue itself).

Given the fact that the yakuza is left limp and unresponsive rather than instantly dead, what most closely matches is a ruptured cerebral artery that produces a large volume subarachnoid haemorrhage.
Which I already explain here:

Now we're focusing on what this causes (aka more in depth explanation), which is a subarachnoid haemorrhage. So try to picture your brain wrapped in three thin layers. Between the middle layer called the arachnoid membrane and the innermost layer that hugs the brain lies a narrow fluid filled cushion known as the subarachnoid space. That fluid called cerebrospinal fluid, acts like shock absorbing water which keeps the brain from banging against the skull. Sometimes, a blood vessel in a loop of arteries at the base of the brain develops a weak berry shaped bulge called a saccular or "berry" aneurysm. If that bulge suddenly bursts, fast moving arterial blood jets into the subarachnoid space, mixing with the cerebrospinal fluid and sharply raising the pressure inside the skull, known as intracranial pressure. People may pass out or develop trouble moving or speaking and sometimes experience seizures. Doctors call this whole event a subarachnoid hemorrhage which is a medical emergency because the rising pressure and loss of blood flow can damage the brain within minutes.

What makes Makima’s "bio stare" much deadlier than any real world subarachnoid hemorrhage is that she strips away every natural brake the human body or a trauma team normally has. In real life, the danger starts with an existing weakness. For example, a berry aneurysm has to form over years before it can burst. Makima skips that waiting period by instantaneously rupturing a vessel that was perfectly healthy seconds earlier. It's lethal because it unleashes the worst case version of a subarachnoid haemorrhage all at once and with no time for the body or doctors to fight back. When an intracranial artery tears, pressurized blood explodes into the subarachnoid space faster than cerebrospinal fluid can drain away. Pressure inside the skull skyrockets, squeezing the entire brain as if it were caught in a vice. Within seconds that pressure forces the lower part of the brain (the brainstem, the switchboard for breathing, heart rate and consciousness) downward through a fixed bony opening. It's called herniation and it cuts off the brain stem’s own blood supply and short circuits its life support, the victim stops breathing and the heart soon follows.

Alright, so now I quantified the damage it inflicts, what else?

You bring up the point of Hakari healing his brain, but that’s an entirely different context. Kashimo’s lightning chars a coin sized patch of Hakari’s cerebral cortex, it’s a surface burn plus some localized necrosis judging from the panel. The rest of his intracranial pressure, blood flow and autonomic centers remain normal, so as long as his jackpot keeps pumping, he can knit that patch back together. He ONLY heals because of the jackpot otherwise, anyone hit with this would die instantly and wouldn’t be able to use RCT at all. Especially considering he healed it in the moment, which requires regen speed and as you said, Gojo and Sukuna plausibly would not or could not match that speed when healing a similar brain injury.

Meanwhile, Makima ruptures a deep midline artery, floods the entire subarachnoid space in milliseconds, spikes intracranial pressure and causes herniation. When the medulla is starved of blood, breathing halts. Five-ish mins later, every neuron is dead.

Also, you have a misconception about reaction speed, so I'll just link you back to what I told Razor:

And don’t forget, the ability Makima uses is far worse than the bio stare. See here:
Click to expand...
Round 3

Anonymous_Learner said:
Nope but would possibly come up in the domain and Deku possibly confesses
(Trying to give this the benefit of the doubt since, without these things for the executioner sword, He gets confiscation and takes Deku CE [verse equalization a bit so they can put him in domains] which sucks for them since Deku doesn't use ce anyway and now they can put him in domains because no ce. Even if we want to say it takes one of his quirks, it doesn't really matter since he doesn't need them for the most part)
Click to expand...
He also caught like 2 bodies in movie 4 pretty sure
 
Just to see this through, I will defect from Makima and change my vote to Gojo for the arguments given by subsequent discussion
 
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