Urgent Reaction Speed Conversation

[KingTempest]

Our "Reaction Speed" standards are terrible. Like they are actually worse than our old cloud calculation issues. They suck ass.

This was triggered from this thread here, where people have dodging feats with the capabilities of jumping out of the way of attacks, doing entire crouching motions to dodge attacks, and it's being stuck as "reaction speed". Then acting as if it's impossible to scale them to combat speeds.

This is based on the statement on our speed page.

Reaction speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action. This usually only grants a short movement upon reaction, whereas several movements at the same speed switch it to combat speed.

Most calculations on this wiki regarding speeds include people dodging attacks. The vast majority of them. Most verses on this wiki that doesn't get their speed from a stated value is probably getting their scaling from dodging something. Bullets, sound, lightning, light, etc. But from what I see in the thread, unless you are dodging like you're in the matrix, it's "reaction speed" and can't be scaled to combat speed, which is honestly bs.

The calculation initially in that thread was this where a laser was fired and characters stared at it then jumped away. Like leaped away. This is now being considered as "reaction speeds" as it was 1 "movement", JUMPING, and it's effectively trying to block off every feat in the verse where people dodge things.
And people scaling? "He scales to his combat speed not his reactions" for landing a hit they couldn't dodge? Because it wasn't matrix dodging?

A better wider known example.

The famed feat that MCU chars scale to (that I found) is this, with Andrew Garfield's spider man jumping away from some lightning.
With the logic I'm witnessing in the thread above, this is only "reaction" speed since it was 1 "movement", him jumping out of the way, but that 1 "movement" took many other movements to do, like him squatting, rotating his body, leaping and rotating, things like that.

With the logic being shown, can he not punch as fast as he can squat? Can he not punch as fast as he can duck? Can he not punch as fast as he can rotate? And now he's left in limbo until someone attacks him and we can prove that he can punch as fast as he can dodge. Because if someone wants to scale to that, unless they're dodging something at the same time and showing relative speeds, nobody will ever scale to his reaction speed unless they catch him at a very weird time.

I think reaction speeds, and maybe combat speeds as well, need more clarification. Because I lack comprehension as to why "short movements" are now being taken to limit combat speeds. The effects in this thread I initially linked affect pretty much the entire wiki all because "reaction speed" is an unscaleable thing.

I'm at a complete loss, like idek any "solutions". It's really just to bring it to staff's attention, since this is staff DISCUSSION.

 

[Damage3245]

I think reaction speeds, and maybe combat speeds as well, need more clarification.

I'm definitely in support of there being more discussion for them and more detailed standards and explanations. A "short movement upon reaction" without a detailed list of examples definitely lends itself to being very open to interpretation.

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah I just really found this whole conundrum weird as ****. Like what the **** does "Short movement" even mean here.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah I just really found this whole conundrum weird as *. Like what the * does "Short movement" even mean here.

The only example on the page is this:

For example, let's say that character A shoots at character B with a gun and character B dodges. That is reaction speed. Keep in mind, sometimes a person aim dodges and it is not as good of a feat.

But by itself, it doesn't explain much. How does Character B dodge here? Do they tilt their body or move a body part out of the way? Sidestep the bullet? Jump to a different location? Duck? There's a lot of different bullet-dodging feats in fiction.

 

[FinePoint]

Honestly I'm fine with combat speed being given for like dodging things, or catching things.

It would make sense that if they can move out of the way of a bullet, that they could then punch at similar speeds, for example.

As brought up in the thread, I really only have an issue specifically with using the turning of one's head or eyes for anything beyond reaction speed, since it's just a natural result of them reacting, narratively.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The main reason our Reaction speed is separate from combat speed had to do with characters who can dodge or elude fast opponents, but tend to be much slower fighting back. And Spider-Man was usually a magnum opus of characters with those separations; but that's mainly due to Spider-Sense and can be seen as a precognition rather than speed.

I'm neutral for now, but input from @DontTalkDT is mandatory for revisions like this.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that KingTempest seems to make sense here, but I am not good with calculations.

@Mr. Bambu @Agnaa @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @GrathOfLux @Dereck03 @Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @Ugarik @DMUA @TheRustyOne @Armorchompy @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @KLOL506 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings @Dalesean027 @DemiiPowa @Flashlight237 @SeijiSetto @SunDaGamer

What do you think about this?

 

[FinePoint]

The main reason our Reaction speed is separate from combat speed had to do with characters who can dodge or elude fast opponents, but tend to be much slower fighting back. And Spider-Man was usually a magnum opus of characters with those separations; but that's mainly due to Spider-Sense and can be seen as a precognition rather than speed.

I'm neutral for now, but input from @DontTalkDT is mandatory for revisions like this.

Spider-Man also famously holds back to an absurd degree.

Wouldn't it make more sense, logically, to assume that he fights back slower because of this?

 

[KLOL506]

Brother, I am already here LOL

Anyway I think we should explicitly specify what the heck "short movement" means here because not all dodging is the same. Biomechanics need to be taken into account.

 

[DMUA]

Yeah I just really found this whole conundrum weird as *. Like what the * does "Short movement" even mean here.

I always figured it was something like, lifting up a shield or sword to block, which seems to fit the spirit a lot more than kick flipping entirely out of the way of an explosion

 

[Dalesean027]

I think reaction speeds, and maybe combat speeds as well, need more clarification. Because I lack comprehension as to why "short movements" are now being taken to limit combat speeds. The effects in this thread I initially linked affect pretty much the entire wiki all because "reaction speed" is an unscaleable thing.

Some deeper level of specifcation can definitely be provided since let's be real with this very vague wording Leon doing something like this requires far less movements than fully roll dodging a decent distance like this yet the first logically could scale to combat speeds with far less movement than this large roll to evade yet the deciding factor is "short movements"

 

[KingTempest]

I always figured it was something like, lifting up a shield or sword to block, which seems to fit the spirit a lot more than kick flipping entirely out of the way of an explosion

Even something like this is like... you can swing a sword to block and it's "reaction speed" but is this really not combat?
Can I not block with a sword as fast as I can jab with a sword?

Some deeper level of specifcation can definitely be provided since let's be real with this very vague wording Leon doing something like this requires far less movements than fully roll dodging a decent distance like this yet the first logically could scale to combat speeds with far less movement than this large roll to evade yet the deciding factor is "short movements"

Question
For the former, how is it possible to scale combat speeds to something like this?

 

[DMUA]

Even something like this is like... you can swing a sword to block and it's "reaction speed" but is this really not combat?
Can I not block with a sword as fast as I can jab with a sword?

Well in that specific case it's much more arguable than they can't move their whole body around the battlefield at such a speed, which is the general intent of combat (not to be confused with travel speed where they can keep it up for a good while)

In fact IRL, yeah you can jab with a sword that fast but you're not going to shuffle around quite that well, at most you'll bend your body out of the way of an attack

 

[KingTempest]

Well in that specific case it's much more arguable than they can't move their whole body around the battlefield at such a speed, which is the general intent of combat (not to be confused with travel speed where they can keep it up for a good while)

In fact IRL, yeah you can jab with a sword that fast but you're not going to shuffle around quite that well, at most you'll bend your body out of the way of an attack

Movement is fine but if I block someone then instantly try to slash, I think it's fair to say i'm moving at relative speeds

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'm definitely in support of there being more discussion for them and more detailed standards and explanations. A "short movement upon reaction" without a detailed list of examples definitely lends itself to being very open to interpretation.

This is pretty much where I'm at with this. I don't really care all that much about the standard itself, as much as I think it's absolutely necessary for us to clear it up considerably more, with better examples and the works. Regardless of the outcome of this thread, we need a much more detailed description.

 

[Damage3245]

Part of it, I think, is that Reaction Speed should be for reflexive action; while Combat Speed is for how a character a fight, not every reaction by a character is going to be for them fighting. Sometimes in fiction it is noted that if a character acts on instinct then they move faster than they would normally. Like look at how Dragon Ball characters when they start moving on instinct can dodge and appear untouchable (though this gets more complicated when they actively start weaponizing this to utilize that instinctiviness in combat itself).

A quick-burst reaction to something that your senses pick up (like say, turning your head or jolting out of the way) isn't something you can necessarily scale to swinging your arms or throwing a kick. The former isn't how you fight, but the latter is.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Part of it, I think, is that Reaction Speed should be for reflexive action; while Combat Speed is for how a character a fight, not every reaction by a character is going to be for them fighting. Sometimes in fiction it is noted that if a character acts on instinct then they move faster than they would normally. Like look at how Dragon Ball characters when they start moving on instinct can dodge and appear untouchable (though this gets more complicated when they actively start weaponizing this to utilize that instinctiviness in combat itself).

A quick-burst reaction to something that your senses pick up (like say, turning your head or jolting out of the way) isn't something you can necessarily scale to swinging your arms or throwing a kick. The former isn't how you fight, but the latter is.

This, and another thing that's worth considering in those types of feats is what potential Sensory Enhancements the character performing the reaction feat has.

For instance, people brought up Spider-Man earlier. He's perhaps the fictional character this concept applies to the most. Spider-Man has this thing called the Spidey Sense that lets him perceive threats before they even happen. Naturally, when you can see something coming long before it even happens, that'll make reacting to it considerably easier. So, if Spider-Man dodges a beam travelling at the speed of light, I wouldn't really say it'd be reasonable to assume he can punch and kick at those speeds necessarily. It's just extra useful for evasive or defensive maneuvers.

Same goes for other users of Precognition, Enhanced Senses, and other clairvoyant-type abilities. If a Sharingan or Haki user reacts to and dodges a bolt of lightning, I wouldn't default to saying that's how fast they can run, punch, kick, jump, etc. Since their "senses" are giving them a massive advantage in reacting to these stimuli and making those movements more efficiently than normal.

In the same way that distance is a factor when judging these feats, I think sensory abilities should be as well.

 

[DontTalkDT]

My take on this is that reaction speed is for movements not involving movement of the whole body, in response to other similarly fast stuff. Things like pulling the trigger of a gun or raising a sword.
If you can run/jump that fast it is travel speed, and travel speed + appropriate reaction speed / perception time is combat speed. (As to fight you need to be able to move fast and have the reactions to take effective action against someone who moves fast)

I think there is also room to classify certain things as reaction speed if it makes more sense from a scaling perspective (i.e. in cases where we get outliers when scaling and stuff)

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is also extremely common with characters that have enormously higher combat speed than running speed, which is a form of travel speed.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, it is also extremely common with characters that have enormously higher combat speed than running speed, which is a form of travel speed.

Combat requires one to move one's body, though, so being able to run or fly at a certain speed is an inevitable part of combat speed. A character that can't do that, couldn't really fight at that speed, as an opponent running at that speed could literally run circles around them without them being able to keep up. They would effectively be glued in place during the fighting, being unable to dodge attacks by moving to the side.
Given, there can be issues with stamina that prevent a character from running great distances at the speed they would move their body during combat. But at least over some short distance the character must be able to fly or run at their combat speed. Otherwise, they should really just have reaction and attack speed, like Lucy for example.
(One could argue that travel speed should have been split in long and short distance parts, but it probably is a bit late for that)

 

[Antvasima]

Logically, yes, but enormously higher combat speed than running speed is an inherent trait of most fiction, which does not tend to operate logically at all in this regard, and we would have to overhaul many thousands of pages at this point if we attempt to modify our standards for accommodating for that tendency.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Combat requires one to move one's body, though, so being able to run or fly at a certain speed is an inevitable part of combat speed. A character that can't do that, couldn't really fight at that speed, as an opponent running at that speed could literally run circles around them without them being able to keep up. They would effectively be glued in place during the fighting, being unable to dodge attacks by moving to the side.
Given, there can be issues with stamina that prevent a character from running great distances at the speed they would move their body during combat. But at least over some short distance the character must be able to fly or run at their combat speed. Otherwise, they should really just have reaction and attack speed, like Lucy for example.
(One could argue that travel speed should have been split in long and short distance parts, but it probably is a bit late for that)

You mean dashing

Running is different with you using agility and mobility to quickly move your legs back and forth in short motions to travel far distances (like Flash), then there's the heavy/strength speed dashes that use more of your power instead as a short burst of speed to move quickly in shorter distances (Like the Hulk). Those who are heavier and also those who instead use more power for movement tend to have much slower running speeds than they do combat/dashing speeds (Based on how their body functions and that)

Like for example, Usain Bolt can run much faster than Anthony Joshua, but Anthony Joshua in combat, can move much faster via him utilizing the explosiveness of one's muscles (Same goes for nearly every pro boxer vs every pro runner)

 

[Flashlight237]

I do think that part of the discussion should be whether the actions are conscious actions or reflexes, and generally, dodging in combat is a conscious action. There's no arguing against it, so why write an essay about that?

Generally dodging is a complex action. If you're in the Matrix and you dodge bullets like you're doing the limbo, you lean your body backwards. When you're sidestepping, you're generally turning your body in a 90-degree angle or sometimes basically doing some cartoonish version of the Michael Jackson lean. When you're jumping out of the way, generally you're propelling the whole body in any given direction no matter what part of your body moves. When you're turning around consciously... Yeah, you all get the idea.

Where it gets finicky is stuff like... Homer Simpson raising an arm up: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Jason_Courne/Homer_reacts_to_gunfire

That's just a simple arm movement, and even then, that isn't so much a conscious action as it is a reflex as Homer Simpson is basically reacting to glass mugs being shattered with surprise. Everyone reflexively gets alerted by glass breaking, so what's the point?

If you want a more conscious example, there's Frieza just... craning his neck to let Nail have a clean hit on him:



Sure, Frieza is just entertaining himself, but if someone fighting more seriously does the, it becomes a little harder to tell if they scale because they're THAT boofed in the speed department, or don't because they barely moved at all.

I'm on the ball that conscious actions should count towards combat speeds; however, reflexes are a tougher one. If they DO count for a speed form, reflexes would count as reaction speed, but even then it's admittedly dicey.

 

[FinePoint]

I agree strongly with Flashlight.

I don't think whether it was purposeful or not is really relevant for our purposes, as it has no impact on their theoretical capability.

Obviously, in real life any movement of any kind involves a muscle, and the strength of that muscle could be extrapolated to all the others.

Though, as Antvasima pointed out, fiction almost never actually treats characters like that, and very often shows severe inconsistency in speed based purely on the kind of action it is.

Therefore, I think the most practical divide we can make, given it's arbitrary to begin with, is to simply define the specific actions we feel are in each category, and leave a little bit of wiggle room for possible exceptions. Like, a literal list with an etc, I mean.

 

[Flashlight237]

Though, as Antvasima pointed out, fiction almost never actually treats characters like that

I dunno about that one; fiction is generally pretty good with making body movements make sense. Your favorite TV shows, movies, books, etc wouldn't generally ragdoll their characters like GMod models.

 

[FinePoint]

I dunno about that one; fiction is generally pretty good with making body movements make sense. Your favorite TV shows, movies, books, etc wouldn't generally ragdoll their characters like GMod models.

Well I guess it heavily depends on the kind of media you're assuming.

A watch a lot of superhero stuff, and it's actually really common for someone to supposedly have superspeed enough to, like, clear an entire apartment building of people in seconds, but then get "caught off guard" or surprised by an attack moving at normal speeds and getting hit by it (indicating reaction speed very far below movement speed).

Or those fast characters throwing pretty slow punches and actually having to slug it out with people far slower than them, but then vanish at light speed when they decide to flee.

 

[Agnaa]

The calculation initially in that thread was this where a laser was fired and characters stared at it then jumped away. Like leaped away. This is now being considered as "reaction speeds" as it was 1 "movement", JUMPING, and it's effectively trying to block off every feat in the verse where people dodge things.
And people scaling? "He scales to his combat speed not his reactions" for landing a hit they couldn't dodge? Because it wasn't matrix dodging?

We don't see how this jump operated, I think it could've been launching and ragdolling away without much preparation. Seems fine to treat that as reactions.

A better wider known example.

The famed feat that MCU chars scale to (that I found) is this, with Andrew Garfield's spider man jumping away from some lightning.
With the logic I'm witnessing in the thread above, this is only "reaction" speed since it was 1 "movement", him jumping out of the way, but that 1 "movement" took many other movements to do, like him squatting, rotating his body, leaping and rotating, things like that.

That feat doesn't have one movement. The calc is for saving the people, and in doing that, he backflips away, activates his spider goop, lands, does another flip, activates his spider goop two more times, and pulls.

This is absolutely combat speed, no matter how you slice it.

With the logic being shown, can he not punch as fast as he can squat? Can he not punch as fast as he can duck? Can he not punch as fast as he can rotate?

He could probably throw a single punch at that speed, but he couldn't:

• Begin throwing a punch as a feint, stop it, and then punch with the other arm after the opponent goes to block.
• Launch a flurry of punches while dodging a flurry of punches from his opponent.

And now he's left in limbo until someone attacks him and we can prove that he can punch as fast as he can dodge. Because if someone wants to scale to that, unless they're dodging something at the same time and showing relative speeds, nobody will ever scale to his reaction speed unless they catch him at a very weird time.

It's also pretty weird to scale to a character's travel speed or flight speed (you need a statement, or to outrun them over long distances), or to their perception speed (you need a statement, or for them both to be trying to perceive the same thing, with one of them failing). Some things just don't scale too widely due to their nature.

I think reaction speeds, and maybe combat speeds as well, need more clarification. Because I lack comprehension as to why "short movements" are now being taken to limit combat speeds. The effects in this thread I initially linked affect pretty much the entire wiki all because "reaction speed" is an unscaleable thing.

I'm at a complete loss, like idek any "solutions". It's really just to bring it to staff's attention, since this is staff DISCUSSION.

Given your complaints, idk what could solve this for you besides deleting reaction speed entirely.

Honestly I'm fine with combat speed being given for like dodging things, or catching things.

It would make sense that if they can move out of the way of a bullet, that they could then punch at similar speeds, for example.

As brought up in the thread, I really only have an issue specifically with using the turning of one's head or eyes for anything beyond reaction speed, since it's just a natural result of them reacting, narratively.

What would the point of reaction speed be, then?

The speed someone can dodge occasional attacks at is relevant.

The speed at which someone can turn their head at is irrelevant. The speed at which someone can turn their eyes is nigh-incalculable. We already have perception speed for being able to process events but not move in response, and for that we use a timeframe, since there's no movement to measure against.

Some deeper level of specifcation can definitely be provided since let's be real with this very vague wording Leon doing something like this requires far less movements than fully roll dodging a decent distance like this yet the first logically could scale to combat speeds with far less movement than this large roll to evade yet the deciding factor is "short movements"

I wouldn't say that's the deciding factor; I'd say that the deciding factor is it being "a short movement", as contrasted with "several movements".

Movement is fine but if I block someone then instantly try to slash, I think it's fair to say i'm moving at relative speeds

Yes, but you would be using your combat speed in both cases, due to engaging in multiple actions in sequence. Combat speed feats are reaction speed feats, but not all reaction speed feats are combat speed feats. Combat speed feats are thumbs, and reaction speed feats are fingers.

This is pretty much where I'm at with this. I don't really care all that much about the standard itself, as much as I think it's absolutely necessary for us to clear it up considerably more, with better examples and the works. Regardless of the outcome of this thread, we need a much more detailed description.

Myeah sure.

Logically, yes, but enormously higher combat speed than running speed is an inherent trait of most fiction, which does not tend to operate logically at all in this regard, and we would have to overhaul many thousands of pages at this point if we attempt to modify our standards for accommodating for that tendency.

I agree.

I do think that part of the discussion should be whether the actions are conscious actions or reflexes, and generally, dodging in combat is a conscious action. There's no arguing against it, so why write an essay about that?

Generally dodging is a complex action. If you're in the Matrix and you dodge bullets like you're doing the limbo, you lean your body backwards. When you're sidestepping, you're generally turning your body in a 90-degree angle or sometimes basically doing some cartoonish version of the Michael Jackson lean. When you're jumping out of the way, generally you're propelling the whole body in any given direction no matter what part of your body moves. When you're turning around consciously... Yeah, you all get the idea.

Where it gets finicky is stuff like... Homer Simpson raising an arm up: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Jason_Courne/Homer_reacts_to_gunfire

That's just a simple arm movement, and even then, that isn't so much a conscious action as it is a reflex as Homer Simpson is basically reacting to glass mugs being shattered with surprise. Everyone reflexively gets alerted by glass breaking, so what's the point?

If you want a more conscious example, there's Frieza just... craning his neck to let Nail have a clean hit on him:



Sure, Frieza is just entertaining himself, but if someone fighting more seriously does the, it becomes a little harder to tell if they scale because they're THAT boofed in the speed department, or don't because they barely moved at all.

I'm on the ball that conscious actions should count towards combat speeds; however, reflexes are a tougher one. If they DO count for a speed form, reflexes would count as reaction speed, but even then it's admittedly dicey.

I think that's quite an oddly narrow thing to base an entire speed rating off of. Verses which have special abilities that grant higher temporary levels of speed already can have their own ratings for it.

I'd also point out that reaction speed measures the speed of the character. In truth, simply having a precog ability won't increase this, it will simply give you more time to dodge with your current level of speed, letting you dodge things you wouldn't otherwise notice.

If they actually do move at a different speed, as our rating requires, I don't think your argument functions at all.

---

I think it's worthwhile for me to bring up a case of a full-body movement that is absolutely reaction speed, and not combat speed.

A character notices a disturbance. She amplifies her thinking speed, taking over a nearby body to do so, and perceives a scythe headed towards her head. She gives out her knees, entering a 90 degree limbo pose to dodge the blade.

While a large part of her body moved, she explicitly only changed the usage of one part of her body to do so.

tl;dr​

• The spidey feat in the OP is clearly combat speed.
• A single punch wouldn't be slower, but a single punch is not combat speed, a series of them is.
• Reaction speed should not just be turning one's head/eyes, that is nigh-uncalculable and is generally irrelevant for our matches.
• I think the distinction between reaction and combat should be more defined by the number of actions, and the response to other actions while moving, rather than raw distance (after enough distance it would become travel/flight, although from the section about flight/reaction speed, it seems like the page is already quite distance-oriented for the distinction between reactions/combat).
• I'm fine with us adding more examples.
• I don't think we should say that all non-assisted travel speed is combat speed.
• Reaction speed should not just be for characters which have precog/instinctive reactions/improved senses. Those don't improve the speed one moves at (which is how we determine speed ratings), they just give more time for one to move in response to something.
• This seems like a necessary case for the usage of reaction speed King seems aimed to change.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

We don't see how this jump operated, I think it could've been launching and ragdolling away without much preparation. Seems fine to treat that as reactions.

They would have to look away from the attack that's coming (rotating away), and then either start leaning over or squating to then start jumping away... That's not even close counting as just "reaction speeds"

He could probably throw a single punch at that speed, but he couldn't:

• Begin throwing a punch as a feint, stop it, and then punch with the other arm after the opponent goes to block.
• Launch a flurry of punches while dodging a flurry of punches from his opponent.

Definitely could, that would be easier and require much less movements than the above feat

Given your complaints, idk what could solve this for you besides deleting reaction speed entirely.

Reaction speed in general doesn't make sense depending on how most people comprehend it... Since as you said it's

I'd also point out that reaction speed measures the speed of the character. In truth, simply having a precog ability won't increase this, it will simply give you more time to dodge with your current level of speed, letting you dodge things you wouldn't otherwise notice.

... Combat speeds is, 90% of the time, moving as fast as you can by using techniques to move faster (basically the fastest movements you can utilize)

Most dodging and stuff alike would be moving your body much slower than that (You can never move your body faster than a punch (Fastest punch = 20.1168 m / s vs fastest top running speed = 12.219444 m / s)

So basically reactions speed in general should be about how fast you reacted to something beforehand (Perception speed) to then you starting your movement... Which would be any slight movement coming/noticed from your body, doesn't matter the outcome of your movement

You physically moving while in the same timeframe as something else is moving should automatically count as combat speed, would make no sense and completely lack logic if things like that counts as your reaction speeds, while for travel speed it's continuously moving at that speed for high duration/distance

This is how I see it and basically how I will always see it because anything else to me would go against basic logic

 

[KLOL506]

I largely agree with Flashlight's points.

 

[Agnaa]

They would have to look away from the attack that's coming (rotating away), and then either start leaning over or squating to then start jumping away... That's not even close counting as just "reaction speeds"

You don't need to squat down or lean over to jump, you can simply push off the front of your feet, lifting off from the back first. You could also twist while doing this. I think that very easily lands as reaction speed.

Definitely could, that would be easier and require much less movements than the above feat

As I said elsewhere in my post

I'd say that the deciding factor is it being "a short movement", as contrasted with "several movements".

A feint and then counterpunch like that would involve multiple movements, placing it as combat speed.

Most dodging and stuff alike would be moving your body much slower than that (You can never move your body faster than a punch (Fastest punch = 20.1168 m / s vs fastest top running speed = 12.219444 m / s)

That reasoning you provide does not justify your claim. Running in a sprint is not equivalent to every form of dodging.

So basically reactions speed in general should be about how fast you reacted to something beforehand (Perception speed) to then you starting your movement... Which would be any slight movement coming/noticed from your body, doesn't matter the outcome of your movement

This is ludicrous. If you have two characters, who each move 50 m/s to dodge a bullet. One of them notices when the bullet is 4 km away, and so moves earlier. The other notices when the bullet is 40 m away, and so moves later. The former does not have higher reaction speed. You would get absurd results if you tried to quantify things that way.

You physically moving while in the same timeframe as something else is moving should automatically count as combat speed, would make no sense and completely lack logic if things like that counts as your reaction speeds

All movements outside of stopped time involve moving while in the same timeframe as something else. Your criteria makes no sense.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

This is ludicrous. If you have two characters, who each move 50 m/s to dodge a bullet. One of them notices when the bullet is 4 km away, and so moves earlier. The other notices when the bullet is 40 m away, and so moves later. The former does not have higher reaction speed.

If both have the same perception/processing and the other starts moving first, they have higher reaction speed

That's what I'm saying... It isn't at all ludicrous.

You don't need to squat down or lean over to jump, you can simply push off the front of your feet, lifting off from the back first. You could also twist while doing this. I think that very easily lands as reaction speed.

You definitely do... You would get no air time if you didn't squat (vertical jump) and you wouldn't be moving forward at all if you didn't lean forward (horizontal jump)... What are you even trying to say?

As I said elsewhere in my post
A feint and then counterpunch like that would involve multiple movements, placing it as combat speed.

I know that already, the feat we are talking about definitely is multiple movements... But 1 whole movement can still be classified as travel or combat so that still makes no sense as a classification for reaction speeds.

All movements outside of stopped time involve moving while in the same timeframe as something else. Your criteria makes no sense.

I don't see how your point here goes against with what I said...

 

[FinePoint]

What would the point of reaction speed be, then?

The speed someone can dodge occasional attacks at is relevant.

The speed at which someone can turn their head at is irrelevant. The speed at which someone can turn their eyes is nigh-incalculable. We already have perception speed for being able to process events but not move in response, and for that we use a timeframe, since there's no movement to measure against.

Well if the whole system is on trial, then to me:
Perception Speed is how fast your brain can receive information from your senses.
Reaction Speed is how long it takes before you actually start moving in response to that information.
Combat Speed is how fast your individual limbs move (except the head and eyes for looking).
Travel Speed is how fast you can move your entire body across any given distance.

 

[Agnaa]

If both have the same perception/processing and the other starts moving first, they have higher reaction speed

That's what I'm saying... It isn't at all ludicrous.

I see quite a few flaws in this idea:

• Moving earlier requires less speed. A character who has to immediately start gunning it to avoid an attack, and a character who can wait until the last moment to sidestep it, have vastly different speeds, and the one who moves later is faster. This is why aimdodging is something we have to look out for.
• Most of the time we can't actually separate out perception/processing and movement. We have an initial distance before the character could've dodged, and a distance showing them dodging. Generally, it is impossible in principle to determine what you're looking for.
• Currently, since we can't separate out perception/processing and movement, we kinda lump them together for reaction speed. We assume that the character starts moving at the first moment after we last saw them stationary. This assumption is necessary; if they could've started moving arbitrarily late into the feat, then their movement speed could get arbitrarily high. Maybe they only finished processing and started moving to dodge when the attack was only one planck length away. If we actually try to separate these out, then we can't possibly balance these; being careful with one would immensely wank the other.
• It's even more difficult to distinguish between time-to-processing and time-to-movement, you're saying that minimising that difference is what defines high reaction speed, but that would very rarely be able to be calculated.

You definitely do... You would get no air time if you didn't squat (vertical jump) and you wouldn't be moving forward at all if you didn't lean forward (horizontal jump)... What are you even trying to say?

I did. Myself, physically in person. Before writing my last post, and before writing this one. In my last post, I explained exactly how I did that. You did not rebuke which part of my explanation was wrong, you're just saying it's wrong.

I don't know what more you'd want me to do to demonstrate this point. Do you expect me to send you a video of me jumping without squatting?

And on top of that, your jumps are independent of which way your body is leaning. That's just the orientation of the object doing the jumping, what matters for the direction travelled is the direction that force is applied in. If you apply more force in one direction than the other, you will move in that direction when jumping.

I know that already, the feat we are talking about definitely is multiple movements... But 1 whole movement can still be classified as travel or combat so that still makes no sense as a classification for reaction speeds.

I can't think of any feats that would, outside of flight speed by jumping sufficiently far. But if there are some, that's fine, feats can fall into multiple movement categories.

I don't see how your point here goes against with what I said...

• You: If you move in the same timeframe as something else, that's combat speed, not reaction speed.
• Me: Unless time is stopped, that would apply to literally every movement.

My point goes against what you said, because what you said would only allow reaction speed to apply during stopped time. Which I think is an absurd idea.

Well if the whole system is on trial, then to me:
Perception Speed is how fast your brain can receive information from your senses.
Reaction Speed is how long it takes before you actually start moving in response to that information.
Combat Speed is how fast your individual limbs move in order to address that information (except the head and eyes for looking).
Travel Speed is how fast you can move your entire body across any given distance.

There are very very few series that would give us sufficient information to separate perception speed and reaction speed by that criteria.

And most combat speed feats would be travel speed feats by that criteria.

 

[FinePoint]

Honestly, I think that we must've gone very wrong somewhere to be applying velocity to something called "Reaction Speed" - which in literally every other context is measured in time.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I would still usually treat short burst movement speed as combat speed rather than travel speed. Such as leaping to dodge or intercept an attack, or speed via tackling/bodyslamming type of attacks. Travel speed is what we typically define as traveling from starting point to destinations over prolonged distances whether it be via running or flying.

 

[FinePoint]

And most combat speed feats would be travel speed feats by that criteria.

I would still usually treat short burst movement speed as combat speed rather than travel speed. Such as leaping to dodge or intercept an attack, or speed via tackling/bodyslamming type of attacks. Travel speed is what we typically define as traveling from starting point to destinations over prolonged distances whether it be via running or flying.

Alright, I agree, so revised:
Perception Speed is how fast your brain can receive information from your senses.
Reaction Speed is how long it takes before you actually start moving in response to that information.
Combat Speed is how fast your individual limbs move, or short bursts of body movement in order to address that information (except the head and eyes for looking).
Travel Speed is how fast you can move your entire body across any given distance (except short bursts like dodges which are Combat Speed).

 

[Agnaa]

Honestly, I think that we must've gone very wrong somewhere to be applying velocity to something called "Reaction Speed" - which in literally every other context is measured in time.

Understandable, but such a big change would need to be taken with care. I'd guess that we usually did movement because that was far more easily measurable. We only introduced perception speed far later; we didn't have an official separation until 2022.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I see quite a few flaws in this idea:

I'm not even basing it from an idea... That's literally the definition basically... How fast you react

Reaction speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action.

Which comes from this; Reaction Time

How your eqating reaction speeds make no sense and goes against logic so it's difficult to argue against you your mindset is completely different and doesn't follow reality in my view

Moving earlier requires less speed

... What? No. You need faster reactions speeds to move earlier... Look at the concept from above

A character who has to immediately start gunning it to avoid an attack, and a character who can wait until the last moment to sidestep it, have vastly different speeds, and the one who moves later is faster. This is why aimdodging is something we have to look out for.

That's completely different and situational... That's like saying one guy can travel at the speed of light but then this time he didn't and only moved at the speed of sound...

You just can't calculate his actual speed at that point..

I can't currently speak much anymore but I'll try to quickly respond to most of what you said

I did. Myself, physically in person. Before writing my last post, and before writing this one. In my last post, I explained exactly how I did that. You did not rebuke which part of my explanation was wrong, you're just saying it's wrong.

It's wrong because it is wrong... I don't have to do it physically in person right but I've done it before many times as well (And now as well)

If you're in a stationery position... You cannot jump and get air time if you don't squat in any way and you cannot jump forward if you are not leaning forward

I don't know what more you'd want me to do to demonstrate this point. Do you expect me to send you a video of me jumping without squatting?

Unless you are already moving, using momentum and jumping up and down from that point onwards otherwise it's practically impossible to jump without squating in some way and leaning forward to jump forward in a stationary position... You are either leaning or squatting by jumping forward otherwise your just taking steps

And on top of that, your jumps are independent of which way your body is leaning. That's just the orientation of the object doing the jumping, what matters for the direction travelled is the direction that force is applied in. If you apply more force in one direction than the other, you will move in that direction when jumping.

Your talking about a 1 percent situation... 99% of the time to jump far forwards or upwards, you have to lean forward or squat... come on

• You: If you move in the same timeframe as something else, that's combat speed, not reaction speed.
• Me: Unless time is stopped, that would apply to literally every movement.

My point goes against what you said, because what you said would only allow reaction speed to apply during stopped time. Which I think is an absurd idea.

what? I don't think you understood what I said... If you physically and consciously are moving your limbs in the same timeframe as something else... That should be combat speed, and reactions speeds applies the starts of your movements within that timeframe... That's all I was saying, idk where time stop comes in on this

Understandable

sorry for not explaining it better

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not even basing it from an idea... That's literally the definition basically... How fast you react

Which comes from this; Reaction Time

How your eqating reaction speeds make no sense and goes against logic so it's difficult to argue against you when your mindset is completely different and doesn't follow reality in my view

Yeah, that's the general definition, but not the one in use on the wiki. I'm talking about implementation issues with using that approach.

I thought you were still talking about the way of measuring it that we do on the wiki, but that you were vaguely gesturing towards a way to make starting movements earlier give a higher result.

... What? No. You need faster reactions speeds to move earlier... Look at the concept from above

That's completely different and situational... That's like saying one guy can travel at the speed of light but then this time he didn't and only moved at the speed of sound...

You just can't calculate his actual speed at that point..

Less of a delay before reacting, gives you more time to physically move, requiring less movement speed.

It's wrong because it is wrong... I don't have to do it physically in person right but I've done it before many times as well (And now as well)

If you're in a stationery position... You cannot jump and get air time if you don't squat in any way and you cannot jump forward if you are not leaning forward

Unless you are already moving, using momentum and jumping up and down from that point onwards otherwise it's practically impossible to jump without squating in some way and leaning forward to jump forward in a stationary position... You are either leaning or squatting by jumping forward otherwise your just taking steps

Your talking about a 1 percent situation... 99% of the time to jump far forwards or upwards, you have to lean forward or squat... come on

Is this the difference? That you don't consider jumping 10cm off the ground to be "getting air time" even though you absolutely do?

Like yeah, obviously squatting and reorienting your body can help you jump further, but they're not requirements to jump at all, and when we're talking about fictional characters that are jumping at a quarter of the speed of light, we can't be certain about their form just based on the results.

what? I don't think you understood what I said... If you physically and consciously are moving your limbs in the same timeframe as something else... That should be combat speed, and reactions speeds applies the starts of your movements within that timeframe

As long as you are not in an empty universe, or in a state where time isn't flowing, you will be moving in the same timeframe as something else.

So your definition is ludicrous.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yeah, that's the general definition, but not the one in use on the wiki. I'm talking about implementation issues with using that approach.

I thought you were still talking about the way of measuring it that we do on the wiki, but that you were vaguely gesturing towards a way to make starting movements earlier give a higher result.

Less of a delay before reacting, gives you more time to physically move, requiring less movement speed.

Is this the difference? That you don't consider jumping 10cm off the ground to be "getting air time" even though you absolutely do?

Like yeah, obviously squatting and reorienting your body can help you jump further, but they're not requirements to jump at all, and when we're talking about fictional characters that are jumping at a quarter of the speed of light, we can't be certain about their form just based on the results.

As long as you are not in an empty universe, or in a state where time isn't flowing, you will be moving in the same timeframe as something else.

So your definition is ludicrous.

... , I'm not going to continue arguing at this point as one is misunderstandings and the other is just off topic