TenSura LN Major Misleading Revision - Part 3 (Revised)

[Hayato5652]

I was reading the discussions in this thread, and I think it’s not leading anywhere.

We need to wait for the staff members to share their opinions.

 

[PrimeHydra64]

We need a new summary of the Arguments and Counter Arguments

 

[PrimeHydra64]

Also, shouldn't Pre-Halloween Carnival Ivarage be comparable to True Dragons?
Seeing as it is the world-destroying dragon which can eventually bring about the end of the cardinal world, wouldn't that scale to True Dragons by extension?


And the thing about Breakdown Nostalgia, In my opinion is more of a Destructive Range rather than Attack Potency because right before the quote that the planet would disappear and the solar system would get swallowed up, it gave us this quote:

At that moment, Dino's six pairs of twelve black and white wings shined. Dino's twin swords - the Golden Sword (Excalibur) and the Dark Silver Sword (Kali Vaughn) - converged with immense power.

"Fallen Crusade!"

The white light blade and the black shadow blade intersected beautifully at the center of the tetrahedron, leaving an afterglow.

And - at that very moment, the flowers burst forth into bloom unilaterally.

"Prominence Acceleration!"

"End of the World Requiem!"

"Devastator Storm!"

(491-498)


Benimaru's "Prominence Acceleration" is the strongest and most powerful of all.

Diablo's "End of World Requiem" is the ultimate illusionary elemental catastrophe magic, which reproduces the collapse of the world and causes localized destruction. It is a combination of Skill, Art, and Magic, and needless to say, it was Diablo's original and the most powerful and worst secret.

And Zegion's "Devastator Storm," which was also Zegion's most powerful technique, has been transformed into "Dimension Storm" by incorporating the power entrusted to it by Zelanus, and it had evolved to be even more unbelievable. Zegion's most powerful technique, "Dimension Storm," had evolved into something even more vicious.

Each of them demonstrated their maximum power. The numerous superb techniques that were unleashed every inch of the way reached the center of the tetrahedron at exactly the right moment, just as if they were covered by the techniques unleashed by Dino.

In the labyrinthine waste section sitting there, a colorless polar light bloomed, beautifully coloring the subspace. It was beautiful and worthy of being presented.

However, the hidden power of the light was the greatest since the creation of the universe, and it produced a destructive force of utter disaster. The inside of the tetrahedron, which was constructed so as not to miss its power, is filled with the disasters of destruction.

Quartet Skill: Breakdown Nostalgia.

Considering that none of these are large scale AOE type skills and focuses on localised destruction and erasure which is the main goal of that mission to erase those 30 layers which had Vega's cells still in them. One of the key powers that makes it up is End of the World Requiem which replicates the collapse of the world which in this case wouldn't make sense if it was just a planet but a universe but only in AP not range.

While it surpasses Velgrynd in power and destructive capability, it means the overall output of the ability rather than range of its after effects. It doesn't say that it surpasses Velgrynd in scope or range of destruction.

 

[PrimeHydra64]

And, even though it says that it surpasses Velgrynd's strength, its still a feat that Velgrynd similarly can pull off:

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Its not the range that Breakdown Nostalgia surpasses but rather the potency of the attack.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Also, shouldn't Pre-Halloween Carnival Ivarage be comparable to True Dragons?
Seeing as it is the world-destroying dragon which can eventually bring about the end of the cardinal world, wouldn't that scale to True Dragons by extension?

No, because Veldanava needed to intervene and seal Ivarage since he was too much for them. I mean, didn't they all team up to fight him? Also, the eventual destruction of the world doesn't automatically scale to Low 2-C either way. It looks more like an overtime feat.

And the thing about Breakdown Nostalgia, In my opinion is more of a Destructive Range rather than Attack Potency because right before the quote that the planet would disappear and the solar system would get swallowed up, it gave us this quote:

Considering that none of these are large scale AOE type skills and focuses on localised destruction and erasure which is the main goal of that mission to erase those 30 layers which had Vega's cells still in them. One of the key powers that makes it up is End of the World Requiem which replicates the collapse of the world which in this case wouldn't make sense if it was just a planet but a universe but only in AP not range.

While it surpasses Velgrynd in power and destructive capability, it means the overall output of the ability rather than range of its after effects. It doesn't say that it surpasses Velgrynd in scope or range of destruction.

No, if you check my argument above, this is the same Diablo who is stated to be getting cooked by a force that can split stars or celestial objects. Diablo had amps and was going all out against Feldway, so I hope we don't consider that Diablo to be the same in power as the one who contributed to dropping this Quarter Skill. It is consistent as far as I can see. Velgrynd's DC range does not surpass the Solar System.

And, even though it says that it surpasses Velgrynd's strength, its still a feat that Velgrynd similarly can pull off:

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Its not the range that Breakdown Nostalgia surpasses but rather the potency of the attack.

Code already dropped this topic because size of these floors are unknown

 

[Violatas]

No, because Veldanava needed to intervene and seal Ivarage since he was too much for them. I mean, didn't they all team up to fight him?

To clarify here, Feldway fought it 1v1. He couldn't win, but we don't know exactly how the fight went down outside of being described as a "fierce struggle" which does at least imply he didn't get immediately stomped out.
Pre-Halloween Carnival Ivarage has some statements saying it "has power rivalling True Dragons" though given it seemed stronger out the gates compared to the other True Dragons idk how that'd scale out

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

It has already been 5 pages. So how about we conclude with a final summary

 

[Wankbreaker]

Why ignore this?


From what I see from Zorario's perspective, he thought Feldway was trying to resurrect Veldanava, not destroy all of creation. Could you show where Zorario was actually on board with the plan? Because you claimed he would go around destroying dimensions because of that.

So why you are believing Zorario dimension destruction feats are credible?


Volume 16

The scan you posted only mentions 100,000 EP, even with Velgrynd having more EP. It states that it becomes difficult to control power if it exceeds planet.level destruction in the body, so obviously, proof is needed that he can manifest a body that surpasses that level and can wield the power — at least from what I see. Unless I'm misunderstanding something about EP here.

Also, even if we assume he is using his avatar to destroy the world, the main question is what method he is using even if their alter egos don't die,

In this verse, except for Rimuru and Veldanava — who massively scale above Zorario — the only statements about creating a universe involve specific things like Turn Null. So why assume Zorario can just destroy dimensions that are Low 2-C?

Also, even Carrera needs Abyss Annihilation Magic to go beyond planet level, as far as I’m seeing, and Testarossa needs to summon the Void from the underworld. You’re just ignoring how the plot actually displays destruction feats in the verse. Fuse isn’t making every character a Tier 2 expert — he’s giving each character a specific ability to reach beyond planet, solar system, or universal levels. From what I'm seeing he is making it clear who should be around where not any and everyone should scale to highest possible value.

Why are you jumping to conclusions that weaker characters can destroy universes without any specific ability? Didn’t Zorario concede that he couldn’t beat Feldway? Even Feldway thought that a strike capable of splitting a star could split Diablo in half. Diablo, who, according to him, is around Zorario’s level. Or something else here is on the way?



Well needs some translation @Wankbreaker if you don't mind.

And Zarario clicked his tongue in exasperation.
There was no denying Diablo’s strength. Even Zarario, who was struggling himself, had to acknowledge that fact. After all, Diablo’s accumulated skill level surpassed even Zarario’s, proving that raw magical energy alone couldn’t define true power.

Even so.
Even with strength on par with Zarario’s, defeating Feldway was impossible.

“I’ll admit you’re strong—”
Zarario began, but then hesitated. Something felt off.
Diablo was strong. He wasn’t foolish enough to misjudge his own abilities. And if he’d made such a declaration after witnessing Zarario and the others struggle, he must have had some sort of plan.

Perhaps tired of indulging Diablo’s theatrics, Feldway struck.
His blade moved with divine speed, a slash imbued with enough force to cleave a star. It was a monstrous attack—one that could bisect Diablo, reduce him to dust, and still retain power to spare.

And yet—
The ground split. Dust choked the air. The scorched atmosphere reeked of lethal intent.
But the outcome everyone expected never came.

Feldway’s sword thrust forward—
Only to clash directly against Diablo’s defenses.
The shimmering, nebula-like radiance of〈Void〉intersected with the rainbow-glinting Scissor Blades,!holding firm against the strike.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

And Zarario clicked his tongue in exasperation.
There was no denying Diablo’s strength. Even Zarario, who was struggling himself, had to acknowledge that fact. After all, Diablo’s accumulated skill level surpassed even Zarario’s, proving that raw magical energy alone couldn’t define true power.

Even so.
Even with strength on par with Zarario’s, defeating Feldway was impossible.

“I’ll admit you’re strong—”
Zarario began, but then hesitated. Something felt off.
Diablo was strong. He wasn’t foolish enough to misjudge his own abilities. And if he’d made such a declaration after witnessing Zarario and the others struggle, he must have had some sort of plan.

Perhaps tired of indulging Diablo’s theatrics, Feldway struck.
His blade moved with divine speed, a slash imbued with enough force to cleave a star. It was a monstrous attack—one that could bisect Diablo, reduce him to dust, and still retain power to spare.

And yet—
The ground split. Dust choked the air. The scorched atmosphere reeked of lethal intent.
But the outcome everyone expected never came.

Feldway’s sword thrust forward—
Only to clash directly against Diablo’s defenses.
The shimmering, nebula-like radiance of〈Void〉intersected with the rainbow-glinting Scissor Blades,!holding firm against the strike.

Thanks

 

[PrimeHydra64]

Diablo should still have higher AP than his Defence since he can't use End of the World Req as a defensive measure only offense and was used to erase feldway (he regenerated).
And Rimuru said he didn't know if he could win against Feldway and this is after being told he had enough energy to recreate the world tens of thousands of times.

 

[Reiner04]

Opposition make a single summary post. Then I will call the staff to look at it.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Opposition make a single summary post. Then I will call the staff to look at it.

Okay imma do it.

 

[Reiner04]

Okay imma do it.

Better if u all discuss first in discussion thread or PMs on what points should be brought up and what points are generally accepted/common btw you all. There is no rush.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Just wanted to say this before someone drops a long input which might not contribute anything to the thread.

Main purpose of the thread was determining can Zolario destroy Dimensions
Velgrynd stuff is only way of measuring the size of smaller worlds.

I hope no MTL is used next time and gets a better translations.

Code dropped Ramiris' Dimensions Arguments for Velgrynd because there is no proof that the 50 floors she destroyed is the same size as the 95th floor, which contains stars.
So if someone brings that up again, I hope they provide evidence that the 50 floors that were destroyed are the same size as the 95th floor and above, so we don't go around in circles. Unless he changed his mind and gonna start arguing again for that. Beside even if it's gonna scales to Starry sky doesn't address much above my thread either way.

Aside from that, I think we should focus on Velgrynd, because she doesn't scale to the Cardinal Planet or Dragon Nova, which can destroy it. The thread got sidetracked somewhere in the middle. It's meaningless to argue regarding Cardinal Planet Durability. One who scales above Velgrynd can get a seperate higher ratings for thrown own. So I think it's better if supporters provide all possible feats and statements available in the verse for Velgrynd's destruction feats, so we can properly conclude the size of the Otherworlds. Also, some supporting feats and statements for Zorario would be nice to support the claim that he is capable of destroying a Low 2-C structure, rather than just arguing that he was working with Feldway and that his goal was to destroy all of creation. At least provide scans showing that Zorario was aware of this plan and was actively destroying other dimensions, if they are going to claim that's the reason.

 

[Hayato5652]

I carefully re-read the thread.

I agree with the reasoning presented here.
It makes sense that "destroying dimensions" in Zorario's statement is not meant to be taken literally. Considering the kanji can also mean "conquering" and given the context of the Mystics' actions, it seems much more logical that Zorario was conquering other dimensions rather than actually destroying them.

Additionally, there is no clear proof that those dimensions were 2-C in size, or that Zorario destroyed them all at once.
The example with Velgrynd’s destructive capabilities shows that even powerful beings like True Dragons are not necessarily solar-system level, which further supports that not every "world" or "dimension" in Tensura is massive in scale.

Until solid evidence is provided that confirms literal destruction and the actual size of those dimensions, I believe the current scaling based on this statement should be reconsidered.

 

[Violatas]

To give my current thoughts...

1. I agree with the OP that the current reason for 2-C isn't the best since that seems more like conquering based on the context from what I've read while going through the novels, so I'm fine with it being revised.

2. Said this already but idk where people are getting the labyrinth floors being the same size when I'm like 90% sure Rimuru said the floors get bigger the lower you go back when it was being developed. And that was to up the difficulty of traversing it. That, and the environments of the floors are constantly changing to throw people off.

3. I'm neutral on Zorario being 2-C in general though. I'm just waiting for the opposition post since imo they also brought up some good points for True Dragon level scaling.

 

[Voidnether]

Switching my vote to 4-B, I don't see the arguments for Low 2-C convincing enough especially when most of the time it's stated to be around tier 4-ish. Atleast that's how I see the consistency from there, 4-B is fine.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Just wanted to say this before someone drops a long input which might not contribute anything to the thread.

Main purpose of the thread was determining can Zolario destroy Dimensions
Velgrynd stuff is only way of measuring the size of smaller worlds.

I hope no MTL is used next time and gets a better translations.

Code dropped Ramiris' Dimensions Arguments for Velgrynd because there is no proof that the 50 floors she destroyed is the same size as the 95th floor, which contains stars.
So if someone brings that up again, I hope they provide evidence that the 50 floors that were destroyed are the same size as the 95th floor and above, so we don't go around in circles. Unless he changed his mind and gonna start arguing again for that. Beside even if it's gonna scales to Starry sky doesn't address much above my thread either way.

Aside from that, I think we should focus on Velgrynd, because she doesn't scale to the Cardinal Planet or Dragon Nova, which can destroy it. The thread got sidetracked somewhere in the middle. It's meaningless to argue regarding Cardinal Planet Durability. One who scales above Velgrynd can get a seperate higher ratings for thrown own. So I think it's better if supporters provide all possible feats and statements available in the verse for Velgrynd's destruction feats, so we can properly conclude the size of the Otherworlds. Also, some supporting feats and statements for Zorario would be nice to support the claim that he is capable of destroying a Low 2-C structure, rather than just arguing that he was working with Feldway and that his goal was to destroy all of creation. At least provide scans showing that Zorario was aware of this plan and was actively destroying other dimensions, if they are going to claim that's the reason.

I don’t really see a reason for us to even need to use zalario. (Even though I already addressed him being uninvolved with conquering due to feldway being uninvolved)

As all that needs to be done is proving the size and durability of those small worlds.

Just change the reasoning for tier 2 for now. Milim and feldway both can destroy the universe, and have done so.

 

[PrimeHydra64]

Subspace (Gap between dimensions) ≠ OtherWorld (Place where Ivarage and the Cryptids are) so otherworlds vaster than the universe statement still holds up.

Also, Id like to point out that subspace is not the place where the phantoms come from. Subspace has no magicules and The semi-spiritual world that cryptids come from is filled with the magicules from ivarage and because it has no gravity, there is no planets only objects made from condensed magicules which serve the same function of planets.
Scans:

The Kanji used here is 異界 which is used to represent Subspace. Subspace is vaster than universe ofcourse you can check the raws and translation here for that kanji

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

I highIighted the part that had a sIightIy different transIation than yours. Yeah. That part made me think about it quite a bit. Since it says 別次元世界, which literally means "alternate/seperate dimension world". 別次元世界アナザーワールドには似通った世界があるからだ The otl I'm sorry, i don't know what otl is :d

vsbattles.com

While you can check Kanji used where Velgrynd statement comes for describing the other world is different you can check the raws and translation here

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Ngl it’s kinda crazy how Apotheosis and Tayman haven’t become translation helpers lol, they’re carrying this thread harder than Atlas and the Earth I believe VSBW does all their promotions in one huge wave

vsbattles.com

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Bam's instincts, sharpened to an extreme through mimicry with Leviathan, could perceive even the slightest movement of Dumas's muscles or the trembling of each and every hair. However, what he felt from the present Dumas was an 'all-engulfing force' that seemed to devour everything. But what was...

vsbattles.com

So I don't think the vaster than universe is applying to the otherworlds/Alternate dimensions you are trying to say. So I disagree with this point. Seems like a translation issue.

True Dragons should scale to pre-evil god Ivarage (Ivarage's power rivals true dragons) Eldemade said that it took veldanava but there was no other true dragon to my knowledge that was fighting it since velzard was in the star palace and velgrynd was unknown

Breakdown Nostalgia should still have universal Ap despite it's range being solar system (due to it having a hidden power not seen since the creation of the universe and because of Diablo's EOTWR imitating the Collapse of the World.

Yuuki's statement on the Rainbow orb being a world, a universe is literal and them being the same thing but is phrased like that for dramatic effect. and goes on to say they are worlds afterwords. So, that statement still holds up and It also behaves as a universe as they have time flowing inside them.

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Please, someone help me translate this, huhuhu...

vsbattles.com

Full Context:

I'm quite busy today, so It might be tomorrow when I respond.

 

[Reiner04]

You tagged the wrong arguments for me. I'll make a summary on my end tomorrow. Idk why you are rushing

Alight. Mb. Thought the debate has ended.

 

[Berga14]

Alight. Mb. Thought the debate has ended.

Nop, we are making a summary of the counters

 

[Reiner04]

Nop, we are making a summary of the counters

I deleted the comment then. Let me know when summaries are ready.

 

[CodeCCLL]

I'm really boring of having my words picked out and being bombarded with questions for every answer I give. I don't have much time, and I want to make good use of the time I have. That's why I won't extend it.

In general, it seems best to start from the beginning on solid foundations. So I playing the agreement card. However, the OP still does not mention where the characters will be downgraded or what changes will be made to justification of profiles.

If Guy, Velzard, Milim (without Stampede) are considered to be at the solar system level, Velgrynd would only be downscaling a few times due to the multipliers of Ultimate Slime Rimuru and Ultimate Skill users would be also downscaling from the solar system level due to the multipliers. I am sure destroying a star system with a direct explosion is well above baseline 4-B, but it's hard to say certain for now.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

In general, it seems best to start from the beginning on solid foundations. So I playing the agreement card.

Yeah sure I'll try to make a single post about it.

However, the OP still does not mention where the characters will be downgraded or what changes will be made to justification of profiles.

Just to next available feats. Well calculations aren't my forte so I was hoping someone has something to propose here

If Guy, Velzard, Milim (without Stampede) are considered to be at the solar system level, Velgrynd would only be downscaling a few times due to the multipliers of Ultimate Slime Rimuru and Ultimate Skill users would be also downscaling from the solar system level due to the multipliers. I am sure destroying a star system with a direct explosion is well above baseline 4-B, but it's hard to say certain for now.

Can someone from the existing supporters calculate the feats, or do you need help? Just share the scans and references—I'll ask if anyone can help with the calculations. I know at least two people who do calculations, but I'm not sure if they're free enough to help. But let's see.

 

[Hjdjdhf]

bump

 

[CodeCCLL]

I was hoping someone has something to propose here

Okey...

 

[Hayato5652]

We have to wait for those who disagree to present their arguments so that a general conclusion can be made

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

I agree ,the size of dimensions does indeed vary for example the heavenly star palace is only a few miles across but you cant call it a fragile world,i also think inverse usage of the word dimensions could mean different structures depending on context

As for which tier they should be downgraded to am neutral

 

[AlexSamDen]

I'm still wondering, why tf are we arguing for Zalario when most of the profiles got 2C from TD

 

[AlexSamDen]

for example the heavenly star palace is only a few miles across but you cant call it a fragile world

While the palace itself is indeed not THAT big, we have no evidence of the palace being the entire dimension

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

While the palace itself is indeed not THAT big, we have no evidence of the palace being the entire dimension

“So where am I?”
Deeno scowled. “You know it’s not your own world, right? This is kind
of a special place. It’s right next to every world out there, but it’s isolated
from them, too. The origin point. We call it the Celestial Palace.”
It wasn’t a familiar name. But a few keywords stood out to her.
The origin point…? Not the place where Veldanava the Star-King
Dragon was born…?!
The origin point—the place that existed even before all the worlds were
created. A folktale, recorded only within mythology. It was claimed to
exist, but nobody had ever seen it before.

but I guess we’re in this Celestial Palace on another world. Magic
won’t get us out.”

 

[SeijiSetto]

I am sure destroying a star system with a direct explosion is well above baseline 4-B, but it's hard to say certain for now.

this is what baseline 4-B is
energy required to make an explosion starting at the Sun, that expands out to Neptune with enough strength to blow up Neptune at the explosion's edge
if there is more context it could be higher but otherwise you would just call it baseline 4-B

 

[CodeCCLL]

this is what baseline 4-B is
energy required to make an explosion starting at the Sun, that expands out to Neptune with enough strength to blow up Neptune at the explosion's edge
if there is more context it could be higher but otherwise you would just call it baseline 4-B

Why do you assume that the star system refers to the solar system?

Star system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SeijiSetto]

Why do you assume that the star system refers to the solar system?

Star system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

that's entirely fair
a solar system and a star system are two different things, you're right

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

@EldemadeDityjon Can I question how much you are trying to debunk with this? If it's all the characters, I think I can at least make the top tiers get a High 3A rating to stay quite confident stay.

 

[AlexSamDen]

but I guess we’re in this Celestial Palace on another world. Magic
won’t get us out.”

Exactly, Celestial Palace is in the world, not the world itself

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

snip

Snip

Are you 2 willing to ratify this translation?

本来、勇者のユニークスキル『無限牢獄』は、対象を永遠の時間、無限の虚数空間に封じ込めるスキルであり、現実世界への干渉を許す程甘い能力ではないのだそうだ。

The hero's Unlimited Imprisonment could hold its target captive in an infinite imaginary space for all of time.



Only wanna confirm this part, since the other stuff is irrelevant for the argument.

 

[MrTayman616]

本来、勇者のユニークスキル『無限牢獄』は、対象を永遠の時間、無限の虚数空間に封じ込めるスキルであり、現実世界への干渉を許す程甘い能力ではないのだそうだ。

The hero's Unlimited Imprisonment could hold its target captive in an infinite imaginary space for all of time.

It's bad in my opinion. a whole line is missing and wording here is bad (You refer to the entire raw you sent, yes?)

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

It's bad in my opinion. a whole line is missing and wording here is bad (You refer to the entire raw you sent, yes?)

Are you willing to translate it then? It should be obvious what part I am interested in, (And I definitely didn't accidentally just copy and paste too much by accident)

 

[MrTayman616]

The hero's unique skill "attack name(dunno what tensura translated it as :d)"originally seals its target away in an infinite imaginary space for eternity, doesn't seem to be a power lenient enough to allow interference with/to the real world.

Thought about the attack name for like a minute lmao.