TenSura LN Major Revision - Monotheistic God (Attempt 2)

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

To be honest, thing like true omnipotence is not established within the canonical framework. The description of God is omnipotence itself, rather than possessing it as a discrete attribute. Veldanava's acquisition of omnipotence, therefore, temporarily positioned him as functionally equivalent to God and that would effect Immutability.

That would not contradict nor effect immutability since Veldanava was just a finite expression of the godhead’s true omnipotence

 

[Mizuki67]

That place was created by veldanava with nihility collapse,who isn't the all in one and also the stellar king is bound by attributes which where also created by veldanava who isn't the all in one.
If the all in one is the veldanava with nihility colapse then the all in one doesn't exist since he lost that power

That was the time veldanava has gave up omnipotence. His perfect form is before he even had turn null. Did you even take the time to read our arguments.

 

[Phantomaxis]

That would not contradict nor effect immutability since Veldanava was just a finite expression of the godhead’s true omnipotence

I'm talking about the moment he attained Omnipotence and Veldanava never was finite.

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

That was the time veldanava has gave up omnipotence. His perfect form is before he even had turn null

My main point is the "stellar king dragon shouldn't be the avatar of the omnipontence " but the veldanava before creation

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

I'm talking about the moment he attained Omnipotence and Veldanava never was finite.

Veldanava never possessed it in the truest sense cuz when he died the world still running and Velgrynd states that Veldanava was never God in the first place and God is the one who is truly omnipotent. It can be said that Veldanava “loss” of his omnipotence is merely God’s reflecting a self-limitation rather than something external taking it away

 

[Phantomaxis]

That would not contradict nor effect immutability since Veldanava was just a finite expression of the godhead’s true omnipotence

You are technically ignoring my points there's not seperate versions of Omnipotence. Saying " Godhead's true omnipotence " is head-canon.

 

[Phantomaxis]

Veldanava never possessed it in the truest sense cuz when he died the world still running and Velgrynd states that Veldanava was never God in the first place and God is the one who is truly omnipotent. It can be said that Veldanava “loss” of his omnipotence is merely God’s reflecting a self-limitation rather than something external taking it away

Volume 16 defined other way and Feldway was theorizing about Veldanava's Omnipotence since his understanding on Omnipotence seems different. His opinion on Omnipotence is kind of Supreme foundation head that can't be die but that's not how Omnipotence works.

God may be the first omnipotent but doesn't mean Veldanava can't be, Veldanava already attained the Omnipotence hood for awhile even tho he gave up, which would contradicted the God = tier 0.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

You are technically ignoring my points there's not seperate versions of Omnipotence. Saying " Godhead's true omnipotence " is head-canon.

No one is ignoring your points, you are just not making any. You can't ignore something that doesn't exist in the first place.

 

[Phantomaxis]

No one is ignoring your points, you are just not making any. You can't ignore something that doesn't exist in the first place.

Yep, It doesn't need to exist in first place. Not existing in first place doesn't downgrade Veldanava. You don't need to existed in first place to be an omnipotent.

 

[Berga14]

Volume 16 defined other way and Feldway was theorizing about Veldanava's Omnipotence since his understanding on Omnipotence seems different. His opinion on Omnipotence is kind of Supreme foundation head that can't be die but that's not how Omnipotence works.

God may be the first omnipotent but doesn't mean Veldanava can't be, Veldanava already attained the Omnipotence hood for awhile even tho he gave up, which would contradicted the God = tier 0.

Bring scans, no point in a useless back and forth.

 

[Phantomaxis]

No one is ignoring your points, you are just not making any. You can't ignore something that doesn't exist in the first place.

It seems like you don't get my point. You also don't need to reject the Veldanava's omnipotency for God.

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

Yep, It doesn't need to exist in first place. Not existing in first place doesn't downgrade Veldanava. You don't need to existed in first place to be an omnipotent.

Saying “it doesn’t need to exist in the first place to be an omnipotent” is very paradoxical and contradictory. This is like an atheist saying God doesn’t exist in first place

 

[Berga14]

Saying “it doesn’t need to exist in the first place to be an omnipotent” is very paradoxical and contradictory. This is like an atheist saying God doesn’t exist in first place

Just ignore him, at least until he starts arguing with scans and not with just claims

 

[Mizuki67]

I find this particular bit quite strange. The thing here seems to be that Ivarage once actually experienced being this perfect All-in-One, and then at some point, this experience terminated. There's a continuity of subjectivity here, hence the text even says things like "She gained intelligence," "The feeling of the ethereal all-encompassingness was gone," "She had no intellect before." This would make no sense if she was just a being produced by the All-in-One; she would never have experienced "once having been" the All-in-One as an avatar, all she would have ever been is herself, not the original God, and these statements would just be unintelligible.

Pair that with the Veldanava scan explicitly defining the All-in-One as something that doesn't exist anymore, and you have a pretty good reason for me to doubt this being Tier 0 at all. Seems like the Veldanava scan even has these things be stated by narration, at that? How would you respond to these things? Laying it out here just to start the conversation.

They thought that Michael's words were said not only in response to his being absorbed by Rimuru, but also in response to own death and coming back to All-One, like Veldanava, who also died.

What happened moment of Michael's death didn't seem very reliable to also me to build on, but...

Ivaraj, who was once a part of All-One like Veldanava, also mentions the same thing, and this confirming that All-One is an being independent of Veldanava and Ivaraj.

Except for Veldanava and Ivaraj, none of the characters have any idea about the Omnipotent God, they just want to bring back (with his true dragon factors) Veldanava, the True Dragon.

I am not knowledgeable about new tiering system.

Sorry for deleting my reply previously. I wanted to leave this discussion to @Astral_Trinity439 but like I mentioned earlier. Veldanava and Ivaraj are seperate from God. Just read this reply

 

[Wesker018]

So we're not going to tell Ultima about the fact that Agnaa said the OP scans shouldn't be used because of their unreliable translation? :V

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

So we're not going to tell Ultima about the fact that Agnaa said the OP scans shouldn't be used because of their unreliable translation? :V

Scans got translated already

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Was the OP updated with the translated scans?
Since Ultima admittedly said he only read the OP

 

[CodeCCLL]

Since Ultima admittedly said he only read the OP

I ask even though I could bet it's that way. Where did he say this?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I ask even though I could bet it's that way. When did he say this?

here

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I find this particular bit quite strange. The thing here seems to be that Ivarage once actually experienced being this perfect All-in-One, and then at some point, this experience terminated. There's a continuity of subjectivity here, hence the text even says things like "She gained intelligence," "The feeling of the ethereal all-encompassingness was gone," "She had no intellect before." This would make no sense if she was just a being produced by the All-in-One; she would never have experienced "once having been" the All-in-One as an avatar, all she would have ever been is herself, not the original God, and these statements would just be unintelligible.

The thing is, said in the scans, as God, Ivarage had no consciousness, desire, emotions or feelings, so even her "feeling" or "remembering" that feeling is, quite literally, impossible if God doesn't have those things to begin with.

The next conclusion we can get from that is that the Avatars become automatically self-consciousness that they are avatars of God, or well, at least that their true form is ultimately the All-in-one, as the same happened to Veldanava as well.

so the "she gained intelligence"(self sentience, not emotions) refers to "when" she was manifested. When is here because ultimately, even if God itself is all-encompassing, the avatars aren't. From external pov, they were manifested at some point.

The whole narration of the novel is in external pov, aka from the house imaginary next person's perspective, except for the things narrated by the characters themselves in quotes. Even for the main character itself, the tone is kept as if the MC is narrating his own past experiences that already happened. So the problem of PoV is also to consider here. Therefore, the "was once God" is most likely just referring to her true form before she was manifested/created.

Pair that with the Veldanava scan explicitly defining the All-in-One as something that doesn't exist anymore, and you have a pretty good reason for me to doubt this being Tier 0 at all.

The whole thing about this is that it's contradicted by many things in-verse:

• Michael was reduced to God, which cannot happen if God does not exist.
• The fact that the whole "illusions converge into the ethereal" is stated as something that "does happen", not "does not happen anymore". (It was translated by the translation staff here at the end)
• Also the fact that the entire "The being is released from the cycle of reincarnation, unbounded by any and all limitations, and travels to the promised land" is also said as if "it happens", rather then it being a thing of the past. (translated here at the end)
• Ultimately, the biggest evidence, the fact that Ramiris is a guide to the Holy One (referring to God) and gives blessing of the Holy Spirit (God) to the heroes. The thing about this is that for a "blessing" to remain true, the superior entity (in this case, God) must exist. This is stated as when Rimuru was BFRed to the end of time and space, the void outside the world, his subordinates thought he has dead AT FIRST, but later on they realized he was not dead at all since they still had his blessing.

All this ultimately means that God still exists.

Seems like the Veldanava scan even has these things be stated by narration, at that? How would you respond to these things? Laying it out here just to start the conversation.

There was only one scan where Veldanava himself narrated something, and that's this one.
And the only thing strange about this is the "when I was born", which is previously already explained before here.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Volume 16 defined other way and Feldway was theorizing about Veldanava's Omnipotence since his understanding on Omnipotence seems different. His opinion on Omnipotence is kind of Supreme foundation head that can't be die but that's not how Omnipotence works.

His interpretation was that since veldanava died AND was prone to cause and effect, he isn't omnipotent. That simply means the omnipotent is changeless/beyond causality.

God may be the first omnipotent but doesn't mean Veldanava can't be, Veldanava already attained the Omnipotence hood for awhile even tho he gave up, which would contradicted the God = tier 0.

First off, Omnipotence cannot be "attained", unless you're referring to the High 1-A+ kind, which we don't have any proof of even existing in-verse. God and Veldanava are ultimately different things, one is the true "God", the other is the avatar that was manifested to create everything. Veldanava is NOT Omnipotent, he himself said so(Answering Guy Crimson: Hahaha, but that's because I'm not Omnipotent and Omniscient"), while God is.

 

[Wesker018]

Scans got translated already

Then why are those in the OP still the same?

 

[Wesker018]

The thing is, said in the scans, as God, Ivarage had no consciousness, desire, emotions or feelings, so even her "feeling" or "remembering" that feeling is, quite literally, impossible if God doesn't have those things to begin with.

The next conclusion we can get from that is that the Avatars become automatically self-consciousness that they are avatars of God, or well, at least that their true form is ultimately the All-in-one, as the same happened to Veldanava as well.

so the "she gained intelligence"(self sentience, not emotions) refers to "when" she was manifested. When is here because ultimately, even if God itself is all-encompassing, the avatars aren't. From external pov, they were manifested at some point.

The whole narration of the novel is in external pov, aka from the house imaginary next person's perspective, except for the things narrated by the characters themselves in quotes. Even for the main character itself, the tone is kept as if the MC is narrating his own past experiences that already happened. So the problem of PoV is also to consider here. Therefore, the "was once God" is most likely just referring to her true form before she was manifested/created.

The whole thing about this is that it's contradicted by many things in-verse:

• Michael was reduced to God, which cannot happen if God does not exist.
• The fact that the whole "illusions converge into the ethereal" is stated as something that "does happen", not "does not happen anymore". (It was translated by the translation staff here at the end)
• Also the fact that the entire "The being is released from the cycle of reincarnation, unbounded by any and all limitations, and travels to the promised land" is also said as if "it happens", rather then it being a thing of the past. (translated here at the end)
• Ultimately, the biggest evidence, the fact that Ramiris is a guide to the Holy One (referring to God) and gives blessing of the Holy Spirit (God) to the heroes. The thing about this is that for a "blessing" to remain true, the superior entity (in this case, God) must exist. This is stated as when Rimuru was BFRed to the end of time and space, the void outside the world, his subordinates thought he has dead AT FIRST, but later on they realized he was not dead at all since they still had his blessing.

All this ultimately means that God still exists.

There was only one scan where Veldanava himself narrated something, and that's this one.
And the only thing strange about this is the "when I was born", which is previously already explained before here.

so you keep using your own translation after all, alr

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

so you keep using your own translation after all, alr

I've linked the translations of the ones that were translated by Wankbreaker in that reply.

The other ones regarding the Holy Spirit, he didn't translate (though they were present atm), so I assume he was fine with em, or he ignored em. Regardless, considering the fact that even the ones I asked atm in the tl thread haven't fully been translated since days, I don't think I'll get any more any time soon if I just link multiple even more scans on top of that.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

so you keep using your own translation after all, alr

Using my friends (who is Japanese) translation (he is translating the whole vol 22 rn

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I ask even though I could bet it's that way. Where did he say this?

apologies i have mistaken this for another thread

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

I've linked the translations of the ones that were translated by Wankbreaker in that reply.

The other ones regarding the Holy Spirit, he didn't translate (though they were present atm), so I assume he was fine with em, or he ignored em. Regardless, considering the fact that even the ones I asked atm in the tl thread haven't fully been translated since days, I don't think I'll get any more any time soon if I just link multiple even more scans on top of that.

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Wanted to add to my last reply, I would appreciate it if you could translate scab 1 first, since it's the last scan I need translated for my next thread. The rest can wait. 🙏 There are some missing parts and written in a kinda exaggerated style in my opinion(like "everything" is called all...

vsbattles.com

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Wanted to add to my last reply, I would appreciate it if you could translate scab 1 first, since it's the last scan I need translated for my next thread. The rest can wait. 🙏 There are some missing parts and written in a kinda exaggerated style in my opinion(like "everything" is called all...

vsbattles.com

not working, seems someone deleted the post.

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

not working, seems someone deleted the post.

I deleted it by mistake

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

not working, seems someone deleted the post.

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Wanted to add to my last reply, I would appreciate it if you could translate scab 1 first, since it's the last scan I need translated for my next thread. The rest can wait. 🙏 There are some missing parts and written in a kinda exaggerated style in my opinion(like "everything" is called all...

vsbattles.com

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Wanted to add to my last reply, I would appreciate it if you could translate scab 1 first, since it's the last scan I need translated for my next thread. The rest can wait. 🙏 There are some missing parts and written in a kinda exaggerated style in my opinion(like "everything" is called all...

vsbattles.com

Send it in pm. Also idk,they said it was Mtl so probably won’t be accepted

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Send it in pm. Also idk,they said it was Mtl so probably won’t be accepted

This is my translation. If you want, come to Discord and take a live screenshot to see how I translate these things. is htl + RWSa

 

[Deleted member 40129]

Spoiler: translate

研究成果を神祖へ捧げる事が叶わなかったのは、ルミナスのせいである。その疑いようもない事実が、ピピンを狂わせた。
← Their inability to present the results of their research to the "Ancestor God" was solely due to Luminous. That undeniable fact was enough to drive Pippin insane.

故に、善悪など考慮もせずに、その怒りの矛先をルミナスへと向けていた。
← Therefore, without any consideration for the concepts of good and evil, he directed all his fury toward Luminous.

そして、自らを生み出した神祖の偉大さを知らしめる為に、世界を支配するという野望に取り付かれているのである。
←Thus, he became consumed by an ambition to dominate the world, in order to demonstrate the greatness of the "Ancestor God" who had created him.

創造神が創り出した最高傑作が「竜種」ならば、それすらも従えて見せようと。
←
If the greatest masterpiece created by the "God of Creation" was the "Dragon Species," then even that species, he would seek to subjugate and prove his superiority over.

そんなピピンがアシュレイやプレリクスと意気投合するのは、実に自然な流れだったと言えるだろう。
←
For that reason, it was no surprise that Pippin found a natural camaraderie with Ashray and Prelix.

そうして三名は、この時、最高の機会を手に入れたのだ。
←
And so, at that moment, the three obtained the greatest opportunity possible.

You are supposed to translate this in the translation request thread, Dawg. This might cause the thread to clog up.

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

You are supposed to translate this in the translation request thread, Dawg. This might cause the thread to clog up.

Should I delete it?

 

[Deleted member 40129]

Should I delete it?

You can move it to the translation thread by copy pasting and delete this, yes. That way, your efforts won't be wasted.

 

[Agnaa]

The thing is, said in the scans, as God, Ivarage had no consciousness, desire, emotions or feelings, so even her "feeling" or "remembering" that feeling is, quite literally, impossible if God doesn't have those things to begin with.

The next conclusion we can get from that is that the Avatars become automatically self-consciousness that they are avatars of God, or well, at least that their true form is ultimately the All-in-one, as the same happened to Veldanava as well.

so the "she gained intelligence"(self sentience, not emotions) refers to "when" she was manifested. When is here because ultimately, even if God itself is all-encompassing, the avatars aren't. From external pov, they were manifested at some point.

The whole narration of the novel is in external pov, aka from the house imaginary next person's perspective, except for the things narrated by the characters themselves in quotes. Even for the main character itself, the tone is kept as if the MC is narrating his own past experiences that already happened. So the problem of PoV is also to consider here. Therefore, the "was once God" is most likely just referring to her true form before she was manifested/created.

The whole thing about this is that it's contradicted by many things in-verse:

• Michael was reduced to God, which cannot happen if God does not exist.
• The fact that the whole "illusions converge into the ethereal" is stated as something that "does happen", not "does not happen anymore". (It was translated by the translation staff here at the end)
• Also the fact that the entire "The being is released from the cycle of reincarnation, unbounded by any and all limitations, and travels to the promised land" is also said as if "it happens", rather then it being a thing of the past. (translated here at the end)
• Ultimately, the biggest evidence, the fact that Ramiris is a guide to the Holy One (referring to God) and gives blessing of the Holy Spirit (God) to the heroes. The thing about this is that for a "blessing" to remain true, the superior entity (in this case, God) must exist. This is stated as when Rimuru was BFRed to the end of time and space, the void outside the world, his subordinates thought he has dead AT FIRST, but later on they realized he was not dead at all since they still had his blessing.

All this ultimately means that God still exists.

There was only one scan where Veldanava himself narrated something, and that's this one.
And the only thing strange about this is the "when I was born", which is previously already explained before here.

I've linked the translations of the ones that were translated by Wankbreaker in that reply.

The other ones regarding the Holy Spirit, he didn't translate (though they were present atm), so I assume he was fine with em, or he ignored em. Regardless, considering the fact that even the ones I asked atm in the tl thread haven't fully been translated since days, I don't think I'll get any more any time soon if I just link multiple even more scans on top of that.

Since some of these have admittedly not been vetted by translation helpers, these should not be taken as evidence until that time comes.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Since some of these have admittedly not been vetted by translation helpers, these should not be taken as evidence until that time comes.

I mean can you get him here for confirmation? As he had all the scans available,yet he says that only the ones he translated were of to note which seems like confirmation that the rest are fine.. ( Also I posted a different translation from astral and it says pretty much the same thing. (And wankbreakers translations honestly weren’t much different than astrals)

I will start with offering my retranslations based on the imgur links given by Astral.



I believe these are all the sections of note.

As of now, I disagree with T0, Veldanava explicitly expresses change, with the loss/gain of qualities like mortality and “omnipotence”

but my opinion on the matter doesn’t count here, probably.

 

[Wesker018]

Since some of these have admittedly not been vetted by translation helpers, these should not be taken as evidence until that time comes.

The whole thing about this is that it's contradicted by many things in-verse:

• Michael was reduced to God, which cannot happen if God does not exist.
• The fact that the whole "illusions converge into the ethereal" is stated as something that "does happen", not "does not happen anymore". (It was translated by the translation staff here at the end)
• Also the fact that the entire "The being is released from the cycle of reincarnation, unbounded by any and all limitations, and travels to the promised land" is also said as if "it happens", rather then it being a thing of the past. (translated here at the end)
• Ultimately, the biggest evidence, the fact that Ramiris is a guide to the Holy One (referring to God) and gives blessing of the Holy Spirit (God) to the heroes. The thing about this is that for a "blessing" to remain true, the superior entity (in this case, God) must exist. This is stated as when Rimuru was BFRed to the end of time and space, the void outside the world, his subordinates thought he has dead AT FIRST, but later on they realized he was not dead at all since they still had his blessing.

Sorry to add fuel to the fire, but is the fact that in the last reply to Ultima, those links go directly to HIS translations and only mentions the staff translations in parentheses, which makes it seem like those translations linked are the ones the staff translated. In my opinion they should be linked to the Wankbreaker translations directly, I don't know why he keeps using the old ones.

 

[ZERGESS]

Using my friends (who is Japanese) translation (he is translating the whole vol 22 rn

Can you send me a pdf or epub after it is done?

 

[Tempestdragon6]

will drop my arguments later for T0