Cloelolo_60021
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TenSura LN Major Revision - Monotheistic God (Attempt 2)
- Thread starter Astral_Trinity439
- Start date
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You can’t bump since it’s not even 8 hours yet
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These seem like good points.
Astral_Trinity439
He/Him- 4,390
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They were already answered, however, with no further response from Phoenks.These seem like good points.
I suppose we can only get to a solid conclusion when Ultima makes their entrance.
CodeCCLL
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Are you considering changing the proposals regarding Ivaraj and Veldanava's relationship with God as mentioned by me and @Berga14?
I want to know this. If you are going to plan ignore these points, I will not waste my time, which is already very little, to follow this thread. Honestly say yes or no.
Also I agree with this. The part about Ramiris should also be rephrased.
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I will say that while I agree with the overall proposal. I disagree with Calling Veldanava and Ivarage "avatars of god" as we have discussed multiple times over on Discord.
A quick summary of my own thoughts and understanding is as Follows. There are 5 main beings in question here, God, Will of God, Veldanava, Ivarage, and Ramiris.
Ramiris I have no personal problem with being called an avatar, even though "apostle is more fitting"
Now the way I see it, Neither Ivarage nor Veldanava qualifies as "avatars of god" since that is simply false, they are simply 2 half of the "Will of god" " and "Will of God" is the actual avatar of "god".
A quick summary of my own thoughts and understanding is as Follows. There are 5 main beings in question here, God, Will of God, Veldanava, Ivarage, and Ramiris.
Ramiris I have no personal problem with being called an avatar, even though "apostle is more fitting"
Now the way I see it, Neither Ivarage nor Veldanava qualifies as "avatars of god" since that is simply false, they are simply 2 half of the "Will of god" " and "Will of God" is the actual avatar of "god".
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Mind that i'm not against them being avatars. "Avatar" is probably what describe them the best if we count the fact that God "wanted to experience change". But i'm against a tier 0 key for them. God profile should be completely separated from Veldenava and Ivarage.
So some sort of "unconventional avatars"? Like beings that are more "aware" of this God and were created for the purpose of "changing".
Dunno how to exactly name them. Still i don't think we should focus on a name to much but instead on their function because this crt is for a tier (of which i don't think Ivarage and Veldenava pose a problem regardless of being literal avatars or not) not for adding abilities.
As for Ramiris i like tier 0 hax the most, she isn't in the same situation as velda and ivarage.
Edit: the "Will of God" thing is logically right but it lacks quite a bit of proof.
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CodeCCLL
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You don't need to create an avatar to experience change. One can also experience change through a piece that breaks away from the unchanging whole.
CodeCCLL
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An avatar always has a true body, and the true body manifests through the avatar. Ramiris' situation has nothing to do with this. So referring to Ramiris as an avatar is just misleading.
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Tecnically everything in verse is still "part" of God due to his encompassing nature. Veldenava and Ivarage are simply aware of him as they were the only 2 that were "directly" created by him.
Also true dragons have a true selves so calling them avatar isn't to wrong in my opinion.
Anyway i think we should wait for Ultima now.
Verlice_tempest
He/Him- 67
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I guess I agree with this, she's more of apostle only also agreeing with "will of god" being a possible avatar while veldanava and ivarage being it's two halves
Cloelolo_60021
Username Only- 163
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Bump
Cloelolo_60021
Username Only- 163
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Bump 
Sebas-S.P-san
He/Him- 340
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Bump…
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Bump (NGL I can smell an attempt 3)
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why the **** did over 5 people contact me about this on and off site 
Anyway, I’ve reviewed the translations used here, and will drop my thoughts in a bit
Anyway, I’ve reviewed the translations used here, and will drop my thoughts in a bit
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Cause We are a big fanbase with lots of scalerswhy the **** did over 5 people contact me about this on and off site
Thank you.
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Thank you very much for helping out.
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I will start with offering my retranslations based on the imgur links given by Astral.
I believe these are all the sections of note.
As of now, I disagree with T0, Veldanava explicitly expresses change, with the loss/gain of qualities like mortality and “omnipotence”
but my opinion on the matter doesn’t count here, probably.
.
“You’re the Creator, aren’t you? If you’re the god who made us, you should be able to steer the world toward whatever outcome you desire. Why do you need to rely on someone like me?”
“Hahaha, that’s because I’m not omnipotent or omniscient. When I was born, only my will existed. Back then, I was complete—unblemished, lacking nothing. A perfect, ‘absolute’ being… a world where only I existed. Doesn’t that sound boring?”
Guy nodded in understanding.
Only someone like Guy could grasp it.
In other words, Verdanava had willingly cast aside his “omnipotence.”
(Makes sense. Being able to foresee every outcome would be mind-numbingly dull.)
Even in his own experience, battles where victory was guaranteed grew tedious.
In the underworld, everyone except one being feared Guy.
No demon dared challenge him anymore—they’d all vanished long ago.
If even Guy, who fell short of Veldanava, felt this way, it was no wonder a god would abandon “omnipotence.”
---
“That guy… he got together with my sister Lucia. They married, and when Lucia became pregnant with Veldanava’s child, they became a true family.”
“A child?! A dragonkin?!”
It was indeed shocking.
But Guy accepted it. If Veldanava, a whimsical being who sought imperfection despite his “absolute” nature, existed, even this was plausible.
“Well, these things happen,” Guy muttered.
“Yeah. If that were all, I’d just congratulate them. But… the real problem starts here.”
Rudra’s following revelation was beyond mere shock—it was critical. Guy shot to his feet, demanding, “Are you serious?!”
Apparently, Veldanava had now become nearly indistinguishable from a human.
He’d laughingly told Rudra that he was now bound by “mortality,” a concept previously foreign to him.
---
The one obsessed with gathering angelic authorities wasn’t Feldway—it was Michael. As a will residing within an authority, Michael believed unifying all authorities would lead to omnipotence.
Omnipotence—in other words, the revival of the omniscient and omnipotent Creator.
While the logic seemed sound, Feldway remained skeptical.
The reason? Veldanava was not omniscient or omnipotent.
After all, Veldanava himself had declared he’d abandoned those traits. There was no room to doubt his words.
In fact, Feldway almost wished it were a lie. If so, Veldanava wouldn’t have lost his power and been killed by humans.
Of course, it was Veldanava who’d granted humans their desires. The consequences were karmic—a self-inflicted fate.
Thus, Feldway never questioned Veldanava’s lack of omnipotence.
For this reason, hunting down the remaining authorities seemed pointless.
Moreover, even if all authorities were gathered, they’d mean nothing without a vessel to contain them.
“You’re the Creator, aren’t you? If you’re the god who made us, you should be able to steer the world toward whatever outcome you desire. Why do you need to rely on someone like me?”
“Hahaha, that’s because I’m not omnipotent or omniscient. When I was born, only my will existed. Back then, I was complete—unblemished, lacking nothing. A perfect, ‘absolute’ being… a world where only I existed. Doesn’t that sound boring?”
Guy nodded in understanding.
Only someone like Guy could grasp it.
In other words, Verdanava had willingly cast aside his “omnipotence.”
(Makes sense. Being able to foresee every outcome would be mind-numbingly dull.)
Even in his own experience, battles where victory was guaranteed grew tedious.
In the underworld, everyone except one being feared Guy.
No demon dared challenge him anymore—they’d all vanished long ago.
If even Guy, who fell short of Veldanava, felt this way, it was no wonder a god would abandon “omnipotence.”
---
“That guy… he got together with my sister Lucia. They married, and when Lucia became pregnant with Veldanava’s child, they became a true family.”
“A child?! A dragonkin?!”
It was indeed shocking.
But Guy accepted it. If Veldanava, a whimsical being who sought imperfection despite his “absolute” nature, existed, even this was plausible.
“Well, these things happen,” Guy muttered.
“Yeah. If that were all, I’d just congratulate them. But… the real problem starts here.”
Rudra’s following revelation was beyond mere shock—it was critical. Guy shot to his feet, demanding, “Are you serious?!”
Apparently, Veldanava had now become nearly indistinguishable from a human.
He’d laughingly told Rudra that he was now bound by “mortality,” a concept previously foreign to him.
---
The one obsessed with gathering angelic authorities wasn’t Feldway—it was Michael. As a will residing within an authority, Michael believed unifying all authorities would lead to omnipotence.
Omnipotence—in other words, the revival of the omniscient and omnipotent Creator.
While the logic seemed sound, Feldway remained skeptical.
The reason? Veldanava was not omniscient or omnipotent.
After all, Veldanava himself had declared he’d abandoned those traits. There was no room to doubt his words.
In fact, Feldway almost wished it were a lie. If so, Veldanava wouldn’t have lost his power and been killed by humans.
Of course, it was Veldanava who’d granted humans their desires. The consequences were karmic—a self-inflicted fate.
Thus, Feldway never questioned Veldanava’s lack of omnipotence.
For this reason, hunting down the remaining authorities seemed pointless.
Moreover, even if all authorities were gathered, they’d mean nothing without a vessel to contain them.
Go ahead and kill me. I’m satisfied. I’ve learned that there’s always someone greater in this world. An endless hierarchy, an unbroken chain of order—and within it, my existence is undeniably woven. Oh great one, I take pride in my defeat at your hands.”
The defeated Guy declared this with pride.
Veldanava offered a wry smile.
“Little one… I love the beings I’ve created. This once-dull world has grown vibrant and thriving. Wise beings emerged, evolving until they could communicate with me. Now, even warriors like you, strong enough to endure battles worthy of note, have come to exist.”
---
A layered magic circle unfolded, forged by high-speed interference with the world.
At its center was the rampaging Gluttony—a pitiful prey stripped of wisdom, intellect, and rational thought, now devouring spirits.
*“Hear my prayer, O divine one. I seek the Holy Spirit’s power. Grant my wish. Let all things crumble! Spirit Particle Collapse: Disintegration!!”
Hinata’s voice, beautiful and resolute, chanted this invocation to the gods.
And her wish was granted.
A power akin to that of a god itself.
The defeated Guy declared this with pride.
Veldanava offered a wry smile.
“Little one… I love the beings I’ve created. This once-dull world has grown vibrant and thriving. Wise beings emerged, evolving until they could communicate with me. Now, even warriors like you, strong enough to endure battles worthy of note, have come to exist.”
---
A layered magic circle unfolded, forged by high-speed interference with the world.
At its center was the rampaging Gluttony—a pitiful prey stripped of wisdom, intellect, and rational thought, now devouring spirits.
*“Hear my prayer, O divine one. I seek the Holy Spirit’s power. Grant my wish. Let all things crumble! Spirit Particle Collapse: Disintegration!!”
Hinata’s voice, beautiful and resolute, chanted this invocation to the gods.
And her wish was granted.
A power akin to that of a god itself.
Kondou’s “soul” was inherited by Carrera through the pistol—though its spiritual core was not included.
Carrera knew this.
The core of a human who had attained enlightenment and become sinless could never be restrained, even if their soul were bound.
Free of all constraints, such beings are liberated from the cycle of reincarnation and journey to the promised realm.
In other words—enlightenment.
---
“Pathetic. That which is negating the wave is itself a wave. Then, you need only envelop it. Understand this: harmonizing with the flow, not resisting it, is the universal truth. Illusions converge into the profound. For one such as I, discerning your fluctuations is child’s play.”
---
Carrera knew this.
The core of a human who had attained enlightenment and become sinless could never be restrained, even if their soul were bound.
Free of all constraints, such beings are liberated from the cycle of reincarnation and journey to the promised realm.
In other words—enlightenment.
---
“Pathetic. That which is negating the wave is itself a wave. Then, you need only envelop it. Understand this: harmonizing with the flow, not resisting it, is the universal truth. Illusions converge into the profound. For one such as I, discerning your fluctuations is child’s play.”
---
I believe these are all the sections of note.
As of now, I disagree with T0, Veldanava explicitly expresses change, with the loss/gain of qualities like mortality and “omnipotence”
but my opinion on the matter doesn’t count here, probably.
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To clarify, which parts of these suggested revisions do you disagree with based on your translations?
Also, which staff members have responded to this thread previously?
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0 and High 1-A. 1-A I am neutral on, for now at least.To clarify, which parts of these suggested revisions do you disagree with based on your translations?
Also, which staff members have responded to this thread previously?
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His translations aren’t really that different tbh, besides stuff like calling it karma instead of causality. He uses different words for the same meaning.tho I do think that context would influence his translations to be more in line with astral translations. As the statement about born doesn’t really fit in the context when he was made by someone else.created seems to be a more fitting translation . Astrals translations seem to simply use words that sound better, like if something were to say unchanging,he would use something like immutable.
Also him changing was already addressed in the previous thread which is supposed to be read before this one. Which is his reasoning for disagreement
Also no staff has showed up yet.Also, which staff members have responded to this thread previously?
Astral_Trinity439
He/Him- 4,390
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- Thread starter
- #107
I think other than the scans, I explained it clearly that "Veldanava" is an avatar of God, and that is how God "abandoned" his omnipotence. That is why Michael, when his consciousness was erased, returned to the all-encompassing completeness.
I think you missed a raw scans about where it was implied that Veldanava was just a means for the omnipotent to experience chance. Though if you can't find it, I'll link it in my next post (not on PC rn).
There are also a few other things that indicate that God still exists. I think a few of my past posts in this thread countering those arguments may help.
But to summarize:
- Ramiris still exists, and can grant God's blessing (she is also one of it's apostles/avatars or whatever you call such a relation). A blessing in tensura is something that can only exist as long as the supposed "deity" whose protection/blessing is being given exists.
- Michael returning to the all-encompassing completeness a state such that "everything was here".
- Feldway literally explaining that Michael's plan on "reviving that omnipotent" wouldn't work to begin with, because "Veldanava" was not omnipotent or omniscient, because he was bound to karma (causality) something Veldanava himself said as well.
- The truth of the World, that all illusions converge into the profound. Tho I don't have the scan right now (not on PC), so I'll send it in my next post, but what you translated as "profound" to which all illusions converge to is also used for God (same Kanji). So if God didn't exist, it wouldn't be that truth to which illusions converge into.
Also, I'm not sure if it's just me, but I can't see the first two scansu linked, they just show as "site can't be reached" to me.
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Share the scans? Though if the omnipotent has a desire to do, act, or wish to experience anything, that still is an anti-feat
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The whole point is that veldanava is the one that was experiencing things and not god.
Btw can you check the translation on the thing I sent?
(Also I don’t see how emotions would debunk high 1-A even if we did say it was god)
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God(Veldanava’s true form) chooses to have a desire or an experience, it is not because it is bound by that desire, but because it wills it into existence. From what I read of the omnipotence page is that A Tier 0 character exists beyond all dualities, including the concepts of need and lack. If a T0 character expresses desire, it is not because it is incomplete, but because it wills itself to experience something. Desire does not impose a limitation on Tier 0 in my opinion rather, it is simply another aspect of a Tier 0 nature.
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for a non tier 0 being, desire implies something is missing something they do not have but want to obtain( in God(tensura)’s case it does not lack anything). However, a Tier 0 being is already beyond all possible limitations, meaning any desire it expresses is simply a part of its existence, not a flaw. It does not lack anything but rather, it chooses to experience desire as an aspect of its tier 0 nature.
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Tier 0 is one thing but H1A and 1A ? Why reject the crt without reading the argument?Thank you. Then I disagree with tiers 0 and High 1-A as well.
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A tier 0 cant just suddenly cause a change in its own nature because that'd kinda just go against it's immutability. The scans just kinda read as Veldanava being content with being omnipotent for a while then deciding it wants to experience something else which is a huge no no for tier 0 as any sort of "desire" has to be wholly consistent with it's own nature.
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That is Veldanava not God it self. There is a difference with the All One and Veldanava and God still exist eventhough Veldanava was incomplete.
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And who is the one who created Veldanava in order to experience not being omnipotent...?
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Look I am not defending tier 0 but you all have to understand it has nothing to do with H1A or 1A.
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No. Delete this shi this is not how it works you are messing stuff up
(I am tripping, I just woke up and reread this,noticed it sounded rude asf.) what I mean is that this isn’t how it works, this is hurting and going against the actual argument so can you please delete this?
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I'm talking to a guy who is defending tier 0 tho
Verlice_tempest
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No the god itself doesn't possess any desires, for that thier must be ego, and god lacks it
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