• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread



Only once is the Dead Zone ever referred to as a "[type of] black hole"; all other times, the Dead Zone is referred to as a "space", a "dark space", a "hellish space", and a "hyperspace". A black hole is a celestial body, though, not a separate space, or realm, or dimension, or even a hyperspace.

A black hole is a concentration of matter, condensed into a infinitesimally small area, and when an object is condensed enough, its matter achieves near-infinite densities, subsequently producing near-infinite mass and, thus, a near-infinite gravitational pull, drawing in and then further condensing nearby matter.

The Dead Zone is an entirely different dimension, though, sucking in nearby matter into the depths of its space.
 
Nullflowerblush said:


Only once is the Dead Zone ever referred to as a "[type of] black hole"; all other times, the Dead Zone is referred to as a "space", a "dark space", a "hellish space", and a "hyperspace". A black hole is a celestial body, though, not a separate space, or realm, or dimension, or even a hyperspace.
Click to expand...

Tier 1 let's goooo!!!! OvO m8!
 
Nullflowerblush said:


Only once is the Dead Zone ever referred to as a "[type of] black hole"; all other times, the Dead Zone is referred to as a "space", a "dark space", a "hellish space", and a "hyperspace". A black hole is a celestial body, though, not a separate space, or realm, or dimension, or even a hyperspace.

A black hole is a concentration of matter, condensed into a infinitesimally small area, and when an object is condensed enough, its matter achieves near-infinite densities, subsequently producing near-infinite mass and, thus, a near-infinite gravitational pull, drawing in and then further condensing nearby matter.

The Dead Zone is an entirely different dimension, though, sucking in nearby matter into the depths of its space.
Click to expand...

not tier 1, i will give it universal level...but tha twill be a big outlier because...UNIVERSAL GOHAN SINCE THE SAIYAN SAGA???
 
Guy, just to play safe, I think we should remove the 3-B Grand Kai planet thingy from Toei Buu's profile cuz it's kinda contentious unlike Heaven which is indeed represented as a metaphorical visual in the sense (kek, no way in hell a Planet level sized realm would be able to hold all the souls throughout the entirety of the Universe).

We don't need a CRT for this regardless as it wouldn't affect the already existing ratings, and thus is just a justification removal.
 
Last edited:
Can you explain how it's contentious? Episode 269's direct side by side screenshot of the planet and Heaven wouldn't be enough on its own, but it's more than enough when coupled with Episode 195's depiction (It being behind the visible curvature of Heaven).

There's also the whole Grand Kai Mansion being big enough to fit a starry dimension in one of its rooms.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Can you explain how it's contentious? Episode 269's direct side by side screenshot of the planet and Heaven wouldn't be enough on its own, but it's more than enough when coupled with Episode 195's depiction (It being behind the visible curvature of Heaven).

There's also the whole Grand Kai Mansion being big enough to fit a starry dimension in one of its rooms.
Click to expand...
yeah that just seems to be light balls and thats it.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Can you explain how it's contentious? Episode 269's direct side by side screenshot of the planet and Heaven wouldn't be enough on its own, but it's more than enough when coupled with Episode 195's depiction (It being behind the visible curvature of Heaven).

There's also the whole Grand Kai Mansion being big enough to fit a starry dimension in one of its rooms.
Click to expand...
You are right, a dude on discord just argued the Grand Kai Planet isnt 3-B nor infinite cuz visually you could still see the buildings from afar and the like. Also, didnt know Grand Kais planet had starry dimensions inside, cool
 
Last edited:
Nullflowerblush said:
I wonder why Dragon Ball never gets databooks anymore. The Chōzenshū (2013) were re-edited Daizenshuu with tidbits of post-Daizenshuu info added and the Super Start Guide (2015) was equal parts design sheet collection and recap of the original story everybody knows. The closest we have gotten in recent years is, like, the "Saiyan Super Strongest Comics" insert in Saikyō Jump or that random Universe Survival Saga magazine included with stickers from, like, Brazil.
Click to expand...
Databooks aren't as popular as they used to be probably. Only explanation I can think of. They should still make more don't get me wrong, but like that's probably why. Only die hard DB fans would get that stuff.
 
Question, can we say that post-Super 17 arc base form Goku is SSJ4 level?

I know he only managed to defeat 17 by attacking him while the latter was absorbing energy, but you still need the sufficient AP piercing abilities to perform such feat.
And the dragon fist is made out of pure Ki, something that in DB is tied to physicals.
It doesn't make sense, I know. But just like DBS, it's GT we are talking about. Like, a weaker character wouldn't been able to do that. Especially when later on Goku finished him off with a Kame hame ha.

So imagine, Base GT Goku post-Super 17 saga being SSJ4 level in base.
 
Last edited:
Ruphas_Mafahl123 said:
Yet, he still killed 17 with a Kame hame ha
Click to expand...
After punching a hole through him and attacking within said hole...
Dude was probably beyond just a tad weakened at that point.

And Dragon Fist itself is insanely beyond Goku's standard kit, it was able to obliterfuck Omega Shenron iirc, who was otherwise mauling tf out of him. Like, more damage compared to even what Gogeta was doing.
 
Chariot190 said:
After punching a hole through him and attacking within said hole...
Dude was probably beyond just a tad weakened at that point.

And Dragon Fist itself is insanely beyond Goku's standard kit, it was able to obliterfuck Omega Shenron iirc, who was otherwise mauling tf out of him. Like, more damage compared to even what Gogeta was doing.
Click to expand...
Let's disregard the dragon Fist point then.


Talking about the Kame hame ha Goku fired at the Android to kill him.

He still needs certain AP to pierce through a SSJ4 level oponent, there is no evidence a massively weaker being would be able to erase 17 with a Kame hame ha like, even if weakened a bit. Do you think a bullet would be able to kill 17 while he's absorbing energy just becouse he is vulnerable? No, not kill him, you need an attack strong enough to finish the job.

Is GT, you can't expect coherent powerscaling, if post Super 17 GT base Goku scales to SSJ4 levels it wouldn't be that far fetched, you got Cabba, and literally most random dudes in DBS upscaling from SSG Bog Goku, regardless.

And no, Androids cannot get tired, so 17 didn't lose any stamina or strenght at all when Goku fired the kame hame ha at him.
 
Last edited:
Ruphas_Mafahl123 said:
He still needs certain AP to pierce through a SSJ4 level oponent, there is no evidence a massively weaker being would be able to erase 17 with a Kame hame ha like, even if weakened a bit.
Click to expand...
You're right, but he didn't pierce him with a KHH, he blew a massive gaping hole in him with an attack that legitimately scales well over millions of times his usual strength, and then fired it into said wound created by said attack.
Ruphas_Mafahl123 said:
Do you think a bullet would be able to kill 17 while he's absorbing energy just becouse he is vulnerable? No, not kill him, you need an attack strong enough to finish the job.
Click to expand...
He wasn't absorbing shit though? After the Dragon Fist basically already dealt a lethal blow, he just stopped doing his absorbing thing. It's evident simply visually. If you need to chalk it up to something, chalk it up to the fact the blast struck him internally. Might even be why Goku did the DF into KHH combo to begin with, but regardless, he was no longer draining energy after he was hit by DF.
Ruphas_Mafahl123 said:
Is GT, you can't expect coherent powerscaling, if post Super 17 GT base Goku scales to SSJ4 levels it wouldn't be that far fetched, you got Cabba, and literally most random dudes in DBS upscaling from SSG Bog Goku, regardless.
Click to expand...
This isn't an argument. GT's scaling is coherent enough to where that doesn't fly, and using that as an argument to push scaling that doesn't make sense to begin with, also doesn't work. You can't just yap about ****** up scaling, argue GT has bad scaling so it's ok, when said bad scaling is only a thing because you're trying to push something that falls flat to begin with. Like yeah it's wrong, but it ain't GT's fault, it's yours.

And Super isn't GT, Super's scaling is actually all over the place, but even that doesn't work as an excuse within Super itself because the goal is to try to make it as fair and legit as possible. Outliers, inconsistencies, etc can all still exist.
Ruphas_Mafahl123 said:
And no, Androids cannot get tired, so 17 didn't lose any stamina or strenght at all when Goku fired the kame hame ha at him.
Click to expand...
Bro, he had a giant gaping hole in him. This has nothing to do with infinite energy. If anything the fact the attack hit him internally, while he was basically already dying, should have stopped this from even being a thought.

Also a Goku who is explicitly weakened isn't gonna be stronger than his fresh self from 10 seconds ago before getting put on his ass and being weakened. Like zenkais and stuff exist, but this ain't that, he'd need to rest a lil at least. Idk why you're arguing this when there's a self-evident, and likely intended solution to what happened, instead of assuming Goku eclipsed his SSJ4 self in about 5 seconds when he was weakened to the point he couldn't go SSJ4.
 
Chariot190 said:
You're right, but he didn't pierce him with a KHH, he blew a massive gaping hole in him with an attack that legitimately scales well over millions of times his usual strength, and then fired it into said wound created by said attack.
Click to expand...
The point is he pierced through his stomach again with a Kame hame ha and oblirated him entirely, that's literally ap, nothing suggest a massively weaker being like Krilin would've achieved such a feat.
Chariot190 said:
This isn't an argument. GT's scaling is coherent enough to where that doesn't fly, and using that as an argument to push scaling that doesn't make sense to begin with, also doesn't work. You can't just yap about ****** up scaling, argue GT has bad scaling so it's ok, when said bad scaling is only a thing because you're trying to push something that falls flat to begin with. Like yeah it's wrong, but it ain't GT's fault, it's yours.

And Super isn't GT, Super's scaling is actually all over the place, but even that doesn't work as an excuse within Super itself because the goal is to try to make it as fair and legit as possible. Outliers, inconsistencies, etc can all still exist
Click to expand...
Just becouse it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it's not legit. The whataboutism I'm talking about comparing it to DBS is that both scaling chains literally do not make sense, but we still accept them, so there is no problem accepting another scaling chains other than not making sense for the fans. And if this is an outlier, then literally any random fodder, even Krilin, being stronger than SSG Bog Goku in DBS is an outlier, heck, we even have master roshi comparable to SSG, is that an outlier too?. Let's stop with the double standarts.

No, in GT, the scaling is insane, that's it, just like in Super. So, two wrongs can make one right if that's the case.


Chariot190 said:
Bro, he had a giant gaping hole in him. This has nothing to do with infinite energy. If anything the fact the attack hit him internally, while he was basically already dying, should have stopped this from even being a thought.

Also a Goku who is explicitly weakened isn't gonna be stronger than his fresh self from 10 seconds ago before getting put on his ass and being weakened. Like zenkais and stuff exist, but this ain't that, he'd need to rest a lil at least. Idk why you're arguing this when there's a self-evident, and likely intended solution to what happened, instead of assuming Goku eclipsed his SSJ4 self in about 5 seconds when he was weakened to the point he couldn't go SSJ4
Click to expand...
Regardless, Super Android 17 didn't lose any power or energy at all thanks to his Android nature.

And again, I repeat, by our standarts you need the required AP to put someone like Super 17 down, there is no proof, I repeat, no proof of a massively weaker being replicating Goku's feat despite 17's vulnerability at the time, that's like saying a human with a gun would be able to kill 17 while he's absorbing energy, that's utter Madness and a complete NLF
 
Last edited:
Ruphas_Mafahl123 said:
The point is he pierced through his stomach again with a Kame hame ha and oblirated him entirely, that's literally ap, nothing suggest a massively weaker being like Krilin would've achieved such a feat.
Click to expand...
He literally didn't do that. He pierced him with Dragon Fist first.

Also that's a non-argument. Who gives a shit about Krillin? It was sufficient enough to enable a massively weaker Goku to do so because that's what happened. Whether someone even weaker could do so doesn't matter, it's completely irrelevant.
Ruphas_Mafahl123 said:
Just becouse it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it's legit. The whataboutism I'm talking about comparing it to DBS is that both scaling chains literally do not make sense, but we still accept them, so there is no problem accepting another scaling chains other to not making sense for the fans.
Click to expand...
That isn't how this works.

If they don't make sense, we change them. We don't accept shit that you actively coneede makes no sense, and then use that as an excuse to shove even more blatantly wrong agendas and scaling. If anything that's outright ban worthy.
Ruphas_Mafahl123 said:
And if this is an outlier, then literally any random fodder, even Krilin, being stronger than SSG Big Goku is an outlier, heck, we even have master roshi comparable to SSG, is that an outlier too?. Let's stop with the double standarts.
Click to expand...
The hell are you talking about? Nobody said it was an outlier, you're just ignoring the very blatant caveat to the feat, in that Goku used a move literally millions of times stronger than his base state to blow a hole through the dude, and THEN fired off a KHH, into said gaping wound.

But even then, I don't give a damn about Super. You think those don't check out? Be my guest, go downgrade them. That's what you should be doing if you think they're outliers instead of using dogshit scaling to justify even more dogshit scaling, because that's literally your argument at this point.
Ruphas_Mafahl123 said:
No, in GT, the scaling is insane, that's it, just like in Super. So, two wrongs can make one right if that's the case.
Click to expand...
No. In fact say that again and I'm legit reporting you. This thought process is an active detriment to this wiki. You're acknowledging it isn't accurate, it's bad, and instead of fixing it, you want to make it even worse? Not even the same thing mind you but a completely different thing worse?

And the worst part? You're not even right.
There being insane power cliffing and jumps doesn't make something wrong, if the interconnected scaling between things is still consistent, well then it is what it is. But that isn't what's happening here, you're straight up just ignoring the whole scene and going "a Goku explicitly weaker than his SSJ4 form from a few seconds ago, killed S17 with a KHH so he scales to his SSJ4 form from a moment ago", all while ignoring the entire context of that scene and the numerous caveats that make it not the case.
Ruphas_Mafahl123 said:
Regardless, Super Android 17 didn't lose any power or energy at all thanks to his Android nature.
Click to expand...
If you rip a Android in half and they're on the ground literally dying, they're not gonna be as strong as they would be at fresh health. You're confusing having infinite energy with literally everything else. They're not even real androids, they're cyborgs ffs.
Ruphas_Mafahl123 said:
And again, I repeat, by our standarts you need the required AP to put someone like Super 17 down, there is no proof, I repeat, no proof of a massively weaker being replicating Goku's feat despite 17's vulnerability at the time, that's like saying a human with a gun would be able to kill 17 while he's absorbing energy, that's utter Madness and a complete NLF
Click to expand...
The proof is he did it. The reason he did it is because 17 had his torso blown out by an attack that does scale to SSJ4 Goku based on SSJ4 Goku's very own usage of said move eclipsing his own fusion. And said KHH hit him internally on top of that while said gaping wound is there. All while he stopped draining energy.

A gun isn't Goku. Would a bullet hurt him? We don't know. But was he weakened enough to where a 3-A attack could still kill him? Yes, because that's what happened. These arguments aren't even worth my time.

You're acting like Goku just fired one off and killed him, that isn't what happened, the fact I even need to explain this to you is asinine. Our standards don't agree with you because our standards say to actually consider context and not ignore it to wank, which, evidently, you're deliberately attempting to do given your yap about how two wrongs make a right.
 
Chariot190 said:
He literally didn't do that. He pierced him with Dragon Fist first.

Also that's a non-argument. Who gives a shit about Krillin? It was sufficient enough to enable a massively weaker Goku to do so because that's what happened. Whether someone even weaker could do so doesn't matter, it's completely irrelevant.

That isn't how this works.

If they don't make sense, we change them. We don't accept shit that you actively coneede makes no sense, and then use that as an excuse to shove even more blatantly wrong agendas and scaling. If anything that's outright ban worthy.

The hell are you talking about? Nobody said it was an outlier, you're just ignoring the very blatant caveat to the feat, in that Goku used a move literally millions of times stronger than his base state to blow a hole through the dude, and THEN fired off a KHH, into said gaping wound.

But even then, I don't give a damn about Super. You think those don't check out? Be my guest, go downgrade them. That's what you should be doing if you think they're outliers instead of using dogshit scaling to justify even more dogshit scaling, because that's literally your argument at this point.

No. In fact say that again and I'm legit reporting you. This thought process is an active detriment to this wiki. You're acknowledging it isn't accurate, it's bad, and instead of fixing it, you want to make it even worse? Not even the same thing mind you but a completely different thing worse?

And the worst part? You're not even right.
There being insane power cliffing and jumps doesn't make something wrong, if the interconnected scaling between things is still consistent, well then it is what it is. But that isn't what's happening here, you're straight up just ignoring the whole scene and going "a Goku explicitly weaker than his SSJ4 form from a few seconds ago, killed S17 with a KHH so he scales to his SSJ4 form from a moment ago", all while ignoring the entire context of that scene and the numerous caveats that make it not the case.

If you rip a Android in half and they're on the ground literally dying, they're not gonna be as strong as they would be at fresh health. You're confusing having infinite energy with literally everything else. They're not even real androids, they're cyborgs ffs.

The proof is he did it. The reason he did it is because 17 had his torso blown out by an attack that does scale to SSJ4 Goku based on SSJ4 Goku's very own usage of said move eclipsing his own fusion. And said KHH hit him internally on top of that while said gaping wound is there. All while he stopped draining energy.

A gun isn't Goku. Would a bullet hurt him? We don't know. But was he weakened enough to where a 3-A attack could still kill him? Yes, because that's what happened. These arguments aren't even worth my time.

You're acting like Goku just fired one off and killed him, that isn't what happened, the fact I even need to explain this to you is asinine. Our standards don't agree with you because our standards say to actually consider context and not ignore it to wank, which, evidently, you're deliberately attempting to do given your yap about how two wrongs make a right.
Click to expand...
You know, let's agree to disagree. I know my scaling is pretty much contentious so I rather not take the risk of a potential flamewar (This is Dragon Ball) by making a CRT.

So yeah, forget what I said and I apologise for my circular and stubborn arguments plus behaviour on this one.
 
RinneItachi said:
Databooks aren't as popular as they used to be probably. Only explanation I can think of. They should still make more don't get me wrong, but like that's probably why. Only die hard DB fans would get that stuff.
Click to expand...
same things happened with Game Manuals and Guidebooks... they just went away suddently
 
Hasty12345 said:
Didn’t the Toei website post a comment from Toriyama where he said he put more effort into Daima then usual, wouldn’t that constitute it’d at least as canon as DBS?

I don’t really see how Daima could be secondary canon.
Click to expand...
you don't see the contradictions?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Alternate Universe: Haxgon Ball Z
Replies
0
Views
300
ALEPHGOAT
Killerdrone123
  • Locked
Quick GT Goku addition
Replies
24
Views
3K
Vietthai96
Vietthai96
FoxySonicMaster108
Dragon Ball Z: Anime and Movies being one thing?
Replies
2
Views
886
JustANormalPerson01
JustANormalPerson01
The_Impress
Our Own Dragon Ball Saga (Round 1): Goku vs. Stegron (Marvel) (7-0-0; Grace and Ended)
Replies
25
Views
3K
The_Impress
The_Impress
M3X_2.0
  • Locked
Dragon Ball Z Multiplier Removal
2 3 4
Replies
144
Views
21K
Qawsedf234
Qawsedf234
Back
Top