Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

[Banjo77]

Question: What is the scale between Bee in his complete Biiju form, KCM basic Naruto and 50 Kushina? Can someone tell me?

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

I mean my response to this is basically what I said before. V2 Kurama's Complete Bijuudama>Minato's Rasengan~>V2 Kurama's Incomplete Bijuudama>V2 Kurama's raw chakra

So you believe Minato doesn’t have to overcome the totality of V2 Kurama’s Chakra. Simply Overpowering an Incomplete TBB (Which is possibly only a fraction of its chakra based on the 4th Databook) suffices to suppress the Totality of the Form? What’re you basing that on? Because the series doesn’t support that.

1. Yamato needed the aide of Hashirama’s Chakra Crystal to Overpower and Suppress 4 Tails.
2. SM Hashirama was Greater than Kurama in Totality.
3. 3TM Sasuke was far stronger than Kn0 Naruto.
4. Jiraiya’s sealing tags work via unknown means iirc (My Assumption: Reinforcement Seals that work similarly to the Spiral Seal seal that reinforced Kushina’s seal that she couldn’t step out of or MinTo’s Suppressing Seal he used on Kushina). But even then it only worked up to 3 Tails.

So what in the series suggests to you that overpowering a fraction of the beasts power is sufficient (Note: I say Fraction because the 4th Databook says the Combined power of the 5 Biju Combined TBB uses only a fraction of their power. So TBB are more than likely only fractions of their overall Chakra).

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

He had already used V2 for a while tho and when Kokuo rampaged he returned her to V2 (which as a side note is referred to as bottling up the Bijuu's power) not base

Not really seeing how any of this debunks the notion that V2 is ~ to a Bijū's power.
Keep in mind ~ doesn't necessarily mean dead =. That's why the V2s have an "At most" rating. They're just in the ballpark, the Bijū could still be marginally superior.

 

[Banjo77]

Question: What is the scale between Bee in his complete Biiju form, KCM basic Naruto and Kushina V2 kurama Can someone tell me?

 

[Banjo77]

Not really seeing how any of this debunks the notion that V2 is ~ to a Bijū's power.
Keep in mind ~ doesn't necessarily mean dead =. That's why the V2s have an "At most" rating. They're just in the ballpark, the Bijū could still be marginally superior.

However, the complete biiju is not shown, it is superior to V2

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I just got divine inspiration for a short, and I think you'll love it lmao

 

[MinatoSparkle]

So you believe Minato doesn’t have to overcome the totality of V2 Kurama’s Chakra. Simply Overpowering an Incomplete TBB (Which is possibly only a fraction of its chakra based on the 4th Databook) suffices to suppress the Totality of the Form? What’re you basing that on? Because the series doesn’t support that.

Not just that, but also weakening Kurama by injuring him with the explosion

1. Yamato needed the aide of Hashirama’s Chakra Crystal to Overpower and Suppress 4 Tails.
2. SM Hashirama was Greater than Kurama in Totality.
3. 3TM Sasuke was far stronger than Kn0 Naruto.
4. Jiraiya’s sealing tags work via unknown means iirc (My Assumption: Reinforcement Seals that work similarly to the Spiral Seal seal that reinforced Kushina’s seal that she couldn’t step out of or MinTo’s Suppressing Seal he used on Kushina). But even then it only worked up to 3 Tails.

So what in the series suggests to you that overpowering a fraction of the beasts power is sufficient (Note: I say Fraction because the 4th Databook says the Combined power of the 5 Biju Combined TBB uses only a fraction of their power. So TBB are more than likely only fractions of their overall Chakra).

The raws don't say that.
複数の尾獣がチャクラを一点に集中することで、超巨大な“尾獣玉"を形成することもできる!
By concentrating the chakra of multiple Tailed Beasts into a single point, it's also possible to form an extremely large "Tailed Beast Ball!"

But of course the Bijuudama doesn't have all of their chakra or they'd die after using it. But Minato can defeat Kurama without literally attacking every bit of his chakra. Just overpowering his Bijuudama and incapacitating Kurama with the resulting explosion (think of how Sasuke beat Naruto at VOTE1) is enough.

Not really seeing how any of this debunks the notion that V2 is ~ to a Bijū's power.
Keep in mind ~ doesn't necessarily mean dead =. That's why the V2s have an "At most" rating. They're just in the ballpark, the Bijū could still be marginally superior.

I'd moreso say V2<~Bijuu as V2~Bijuu implies deadass relativity

Question: What is the scale between Bee in his complete Biiju form, KCM basic Naruto and Kushina V2 kurama Can someone tell me?

Personally I think V2 Kurama>>KCM1 Naruto~>BM Bee

I like how this feels targeted at both of them at the same time

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Question: What is the scale between Bee in his complete Biiju form, KCM basic Naruto and Kushina V2 kurama Can someone tell me?

Killer B “might” be a bit stronger than the other Biju at full power (1-7). This is based on him helping charge a Biju Bomb alongside Kurama attack the Ten-tails, but overall he is still in the same ballpark as the other Tailed Beast, as shown in their fight. KCM Naruto at a Base Level is about even with the full powered V2 Biju given his feats against them (Biju 1-7). V2 Kushina with 9-Tails, based on the showings of V2 Biju is “near” Kurama’s full strength but should be slightly weaker… slightly.

 

[Banjo77]

Killer B “might” be a bit stronger than the other Biju at full power (1-7). This is based on him helping charge a Biju Bomb alongside Kurama attack the Ten-tails, but overall he is still in the same ballpark as the other Tailed Beast, as shown in their fight. KCM Naruto at a Base Level is about even with the full powered V2 Biju given his feats against them (Biju 1-7). V2 Kushina with 9-Tails, based on the showings of V2 Biju is “near” Kurama’s full strength but should be slightly weaker… slightly.

I'm confused because the show contradicts V2 ~ full biiju. kurama almost in physical form partially destroyed shibaku tensei unlike V2 mode Yugito decided to use full biiju form instead of V2 to fight kuzan and kakuzu almost always puts full biiju >>> V2

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm confused because the show contradicts V2 ~ full biiju. kurama almost in physical form partially destroyed shibaku tensei unlike V2 mode Yugito decided to use full biiju form instead of V2 to fight kuzan and kakuzu almost always puts full biiju >>> V2

That's because Alive Yugito is fodder in Base, all the Edo Jinchūriki got amped up by Obito as Paths of Pain.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

I'm confused because the show contradicts V2 ~ full biiju. kurama almost in physical form partially destroyed shibaku tensei unlike V2 mode Yugito decided to use full biiju form instead of V2 to fight kuzan and kakuzu almost always puts full biiju >>> V2

Kurama is much stronger than the other Biju. It’s not comparable. The Akatsuki members, in my opinion, are Biju level fighters and V2 forms are near but not 100% equal to the full forms. Enough to fight and hurt them though.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

That's because Alive Yugito is fodder in Base, all the Edo Jinchūriki got amped up by Obito as Paths of Pain.

This too.

 

[Banjo77]

Kurama is much stronger than the other Biju. It’s not comparable. The Akatsuki members, in my opinion, are Biju level fighters and V2 forms are near but not 100% equal to the full forms. Enough to fight and hurt them though.

Kurama is stronger but his mechanics are no different than other biijus. His partial form broke Shibaku Tensei which Naruto V2 didn't. Yugito. She used her full form not V2 when she was cornered. Bee constantly treats Biiju mode as better V2 by a good margin. I doubt Kushina's V2 comes close to Kurama's full form and more so if Obito upgraded his Edo jinchurikis his V2 would be different than normal ones could be why Bee Naruto was having trouble.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Not just that, but also weakening Kurama by injuring him with the explosion

This makes no sense Kurama’s V2 Forms can take their own blasts. Why would a stronger Kurama be unable to do what 6-Tails could?

The raws don't say that.
複数の尾獣がチャクラを一点に集中することで、超巨大な“尾獣玉"を形成することもできる!
By concentrating the chakra of multiple Tailed Beasts into a single point, it's also possible to form an extremely large "Tailed Beast Ball!"

Welp…

But of course the Bijuudama doesn't have all of their chakra or they'd die after using it. But Minato can defeat Kurama without literally attacking every bit of his chakra. Just overpowering his Bijuudama and incapacitating Kurama with the resulting explosion (think of how Sasuke beat Naruto at VOTE1) is enough.

I don’t agree with this. Sasuke was equal with Naruto and won by punching him the chest, not because his Chakra overpowered a portion of Naruto’s. Nothing supports overpowering an incomplete TBB would lead to this and it’s directly contradicted by the 6 Tails example. Hell even the 4 Tails Example tbh.

Plus it doesn’t even make sense.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

This makes no sense Kurama’s V2 Forms can take their own blasts. Why would a stronger Kurama be unable to do what 6-Tails could?

This is Kurama AND Minato's attacks exploding together.

Welp…

I don’t agree with this. Sasuke was equal with Naruto and won by punching him the chest, not because his Chakra overpowered a portion of Naruto’s.

I don't see how that would've been enough considering Naruto could take literally being punctured through the chest. If anything that was just the last straw, the explosion definitely contributed a lot to knocking him out.

Nothing supports overpowering an incomplete TBB would lead to this and it’s directly contradicted by the 6 Tails example. Hell even the 4 Tails Example tbh.

Plus it doesn’t even make sense.

Why doesn't it make sense that the combined explosions of your charged up attack and an attack comparable to that could knock you out?

 

[Testarossa002]

No reason to assume so

Not really since it's an incomplete Bijuudama. I think Minato's Rasengan>V2 Kurama's physicals is fine, and possibly KCM2 Naruto's physicals, but no reason for it to be above KCM2 Naruto's Rasengan

Couldn't believe I was seriously arguing for Kushina>Minato a few days ago
Add that Minato is canonically stated to be attracted to people stronger than him and you've got a nice argument forming

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

This is Kurama AND Minato's attacks exploding together.

Minato would still have to be putting out equal power to achieve that, otherwise he’d have been overpowered and that isn’t proof Kurama would be knocked out or that his power would be suppressed, especially of the Jutsu is nowhere close to majority of it’s chakra. Gyuuki himself has taken his “complete” TBB to the face and survived with Physical injuries but nowhere near enough to be lnocked out. Yet Kurama is being knocked out and fully suppressed by an Incomplete TBB being matched?

That doesn’t make sense and Kurama has been hit with worse than a complete TBB.

I don't see how that would've been enough considering Naruto could take literally being punctured through the chest. If anything that was just the last straw, the explosion definitely contributed a lot to knocking him out.

Nope. Him being specifically knocked out is attributed solely to the punch. Did he sustain Injuries from the explosion? Sure. That isn’t what is attributed with knocking him out.

Why doesn't it make sense that the combined explosions of your charged up attack and an attack comparable to that could knock you out?

You’re attempting to try and take the onus off of Minato having to suppress the chakra. For starters, Kurama has been hit with worse and wasn’t knocked out. Using Gyuuki (A Weaker Tailed Beast) as precedence, he tanked his completed TBB to the face without being knocked out. Why would Kurama be different? While yes, there is precedence to assert a Tailed Beast “Can” be knocked out (3 Tails), with what is given, it’s more than a Completed TBB. Hell, Gyuuki wasn’t even knocked out by a 2x TBB from Momoshiki.

If I were to buy your excuse that Minato + Incomplete TBB somehow knocked out Kurama and lead to his Chakra being Suppressed despite not being a majority of his Chakra, you’d have to prove he could be knocked out by such. The verse has shown us that weaker Biju aren’t even knocked out by Complete/2x Complete TBB. The evidence leans towards my interpretation and that makes the most sense. You have to suppress the entire Chakra and to do that you have to exceed the chakra’s strength or you’ll be overpowered and ineffective. This is literally shown in the same one shot where Kurama overpowers Minato’s Initial Attempt to suppress via a seal as well as Kushina’s Chains.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

@MinatoSparkle
Does the DB “actually” say EMS Sasuke surpasses Itachi in Genjutsu & Ninjutsu when he kills the Original Zetsu?

 

[Nierre]

the transition from kid boruto to teen boruto on the hokage head was fire

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Couldn't believe I was seriously arguing for Kushina>Minato a few days ago
Add that Minato is canonically stated to be attracted to people stronger than him and you've got a nice argument forming

That's almost certainly about mental strength as that's part of your character which is the substance of a relationship. This is consistent with Kushina's dominant personality and Minato canonically never winning an argument against her until his death. Also as the Hokage he's narratively superior to her.

Minato would still have to be putting out equal power to achieve that, otherwise he’d have been overpowered

Ok? When did I say Kurama's Bijuudama there was stronger than Minato's Rasengan?

and that isn’t proof Kurama would be knocked out or that his power would be suppressed, especially of the Jutsu is nowhere close to majority of it’s chakra. Gyuuki himself has taken his “complete” TBB to the face and survived with Physical injuries but nowhere near enough to be lnocked out. Yet Kurama is being knocked out and fully suppressed by an Incomplete TBB being matched?

It's not proof, but it means there's no contradiction. 2x Incomplete Bijuudama vs Complete Bijuudama is unquantifiable. Especially since that Bijuudama pretty much did put Gyuki out of commission anyways.

That doesn’t make sense and Kurama has been hit with worse than a complete TBB.

Like?

Nope. Him being specifically knocked out is attributed solely to the punch. Did he sustain Injuries from the explosion? Sure. That isn’t what is attributed with knocking him out.

This doesn't mean the punch is what knocked him out, he's simply commenting that he won't do that this time. And regardless, this doesn't defeat what I said. The punch being the finishing blow and the explosion being a major factor aren't contradictory. Either way there are other examples of clashes causing great damage, 3 from the same fight in fact .

You’re attempting to try and take the onus off of Minato having to suppress the chakra. For starters, Kurama has been hit with worse and wasn’t knocked out. Using Gyuuki (A Weaker Tailed Beast) as precedence, he tanked his completed TBB to the face without being knocked out. Why would Kurama be different? While yes, there is precedence to assert a Tailed Beast “Can” be knocked out (3 Tails), with what is given, it’s more than a Completed TBB. Hell, Gyuuki wasn’t even knocked out by a 2x TBB from Momoshiki.

Um...he was? He even reverted.

If I were to buy your excuse that Minato + Incomplete TBB somehow knocked out Kurama and lead to his Chakra being Suppressed despite not being a majority of his Chakra, you’d have to prove he could be knocked out by such. The verse has shown us that weaker Biju aren’t even knocked out by Complete/2x Complete TBB. The evidence leans towards my interpretation and that makes the most sense. You have to suppress the entire Chakra and to do that you have to exceed the chakra’s strength or you’ll be overpowered and ineffective. This is literally shown in the same one shot where Kurama overpowers Minato’s Initial Attempt to suppress via a seal as well as Kushina’s Chains.

No? This is going back to our previous argument now. The burden of proof isn't on me, you're making an assertion that Minato's chakra overpowered ALL of V2 Kurama's chakra and I'm providing alternate possibilities which are consistent with other things in the series. Also if Minato just completely overpowered the Bijuudama and his Rasengan blew through all of V2 Kurama's chakra or smthn, why did he get knocked out and bruised all over his body?

@MinatoSparkle
Does the DB “actually” say EMS Sasuke surpasses Itachi in Genjutsu & Ninjutsu when he kills the Original Zetsu?

Yes
移植されたイタチの目は "万華鏡写輪眼" に永遠の光を灯し、 兄をも凌ぐ忍術と瞳術をサスケに与えたのだった。

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I had a thought. Could tail amps be considered at least linear increases in strength? Since it's just another portion of the Bijuu's chakra (and if anything is usually portrayed as more exponential, since 4T Naruto for example is nowhere near 50% Kurama)? In that case, you could say that since 4T Naruto's 4.3 gigatons, 6T Naruto would be at least 6.45 gigatons, 9T Kushina would be 19.35 gigatons, etc. I guess this is ignoring the user's base strength, but for most people that shouldn't really be a large factor.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

It's not proof, but it means there's no contradiction. 2x Incomplete Bijuudama vs Complete Bijuudama is unquantifiable. Especially since that Bijuudama pretty much did put Gyuki out of commission anyways.

You can’t make an argument that he would be knocked out when you have no proof he’d be knocked out from it. It being unquantifiable works against your claim as it is baseless. It’s a nonsense response and also, out of commission =\= knocked out. If Minato is knocked out and Kushina is potentially KO’d as well, Kurama would still be free to control her body and unravel the seal w/o impediment from either, even if he were SEVERELY weakend. So your “scenario” fails either way.

Like?

This. And yes, unlike explosions, it was prolonged exposure to the beam.

This doesn't mean the punch is what knocked him out, he's simply commenting that he won't do that this time.

Brother, i’m not about to argue this. This is blantantly what the context of the comment is about from Sasuke. The Punch defeated Naruto. Naruto acknowledges that, which is why he refers to it when Sasuke talks about defeating him again. You literally cannot argue the context here.

And regardless, this doesn't defeat what I said. The punch being the finishing blow and the explosion being a major factor aren't contradictory.

It does. You attempted to use that to support your claim, which it doesn’t. The explosion didn’t knock Naruto out. The explosion isn’t even attributed to it nor mentioned as a contributing factor. We can acknowledge it injured Naruto, but you can’t attribute any part of it to having been what knocked Naruto out. That is blatant.

Either way there are other examples of clashes causing great damage, 3 from the same fight in fact .

Remind me where I said Naruto wasn’t damaged? I can wait. Being Damaged =\= being Knocked out and that last part is attributed to something else.

Um...he was? He even reverted.

Except no (3:19). It’s implied in the movie ending he escaped the same way he escape Sasuke. Kodachi and Kishimoto oversaw this. Unless you think he’s dead in the manga, he wasn’t “knocked out” by this attacked.

No? This is going back to our previous argument now. The burden of proof isn't on me

How is it not on you? Your claims hold no weight and are baseless. You can’t even show a single shred of evidence that supports overpowering a fraction of the Biju’s power is enough to suppress the entire totality of it (Which is nonsense). Every instance of suppressing power in the manga has come from vastly stronger opponents and at no point is it ever a thing to be what you’re making out to be. Hashirama, Yamato w/ Crystal, Sasuke, etc. Each instance has showcased superior Chakra suppressing the weaker Chakra. You either can support your claim or you can’t.

you're making an assertion that Minato's chakra overpowered ALL of V2 Kurama's chakra and I'm providing alternate possibilities which are consistent

No, they are not “consistent”. They are nonexistent. You're making arbitrary assertions not supported and passing them off as facts, or “alternatives”, which just headcanon at this point.

Also if Minato just completely overpowered the Bijuudama and his Rasengan blew through all of V2 Kurama's chakra or smthn, why did he get knocked out and bruised all over his body?

He was already significantly injured. Him passing out isn’t far-fetched. Let’s not forget also, Kurama’s chakra is poisonous and highly corrosive and passively exerts significant force (Scan 1 | Scan 2 | Scan 3). And Minato was in prolonged contact / proximity for an extended period of time.

Chakra Strength =/= Physical parity. My points still stand.

Yes
移植されたイタチの目は "万華鏡写輪眼" に永遠の光を灯し、 兄をも凌ぐ忍術と瞳術をサスケに与えたのだった。

Thanks

 

[SlendVeny]

I had a thought. Could tail amps be considered at least linear increases in strength? Since it's just another portion of the Bijuu's chakra (and if anything is usually portrayed as more exponential, since 4T Naruto for example is nowhere near 50% Kurama)? In that case, you could say that since 4T Naruto's 4.3 gigatons, 6T Naruto would be at least 6.45 gigatons, 9T Kushina would be 19.35 gigatons, etc. I guess this is ignoring the user's base strength, but for most people that shouldn't really be a large factor.

Oh god, is 4T Tenchi Bridge Naruto Bijuu level? Please tell me he isn't. I actively buried my face in my hands after seeing this.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Also, more support in the manga (And yes, we can battle over context throughout the entirety of the series for every instance of it if you like):

 

[SlendVeny]

Hey, @UchihaSlayer96, quick question because I forgot, how much did you go into the other students in your Jiraiya video? I personally think the Rain trio might be an equally good example for how good of a teacher he is.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Hey, @UchihaSlayer96, quick question because I forgot, how much did you go into the other students in your Jiraiya video? I personally think the Rain trio might be an equally good example for how good of a teacher he is.

Yeah, I touched on the Ame orphans a little bit.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I had a thought. Could tail amps be considered at least linear increases in strength? Since it's just another portion of the Bijuu's chakra (and if anything is usually portrayed as more exponential, since 4T Naruto for example is nowhere near 50% Kurama)? In that case, you could say that since 4T Naruto's 4.3 gigatons, 6T Naruto would be at least 6.45 gigatons, 9T Kushina would be 19.35 gigatons, etc. I guess this is ignoring the user's base strength, but for most people that shouldn't really be a large factor.

It's a possibility. Arc even came up with a way to calculate it, maybe. It's also not necessarily inconsistent.
I'm just not sure if it has enough support in the story. But an argument could be made for sure.

Oh god, is 4T Tenchi Bridge Naruto Bijuu level? Please tell me he isn't. I actively buried my face in my hands after seeing this.

He is.

 

[Padaruyos]

Oh god, is 4T Tenchi Bridge Naruto Bijuu level? Please tell me he isn't. I actively buried my face in my hands after seeing this.

Yes. 4T Nard almost killed Jiraiya. All the Sannins are 4.3 GT.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It's a possibility. Arc even came up with a way to calculate it, maybe. It's also not necessarily inconsistent.
I'm just not sure if it has enough support in the story. But an argument could be made for sure.

I feel like it's intuitive enough that it doesn't really need an explicit statement. It's pretty much 1 + 1 = 2

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I feel like it's intuitive enough that it doesn't really need an explicit statement. It's pretty much 1 + 1 = 2

Well, I didn't outright refuse it, now did I?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Well, I didn't outright refuse it, now did I?

Didn't outright agree either

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Didn't outright agree either

It's all about how the argument is presented if/when it gets to the CRT stage.
Until then I'm just kinda neutral on it tbh.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Yeah, I touched the Ame orphans a little bit.

 

[SlendVeny]

"Oh, who's that guy with the orange hair and the piercings?"

"Nagato, also known as Pain because he was an edgy little fella, notably had a plan in which he would capture a team and a half of Pokémon people to stop the fighting because Yin Hitler and Yang Hitler killed his pet ginger, but then he murdered thousands of innocent people, and also knocked a frog over, and I did not like that."

"What?"

"Now, his body was horribly crippled when he summoned the ugly-ass version of those cool justice statues(boy, keep the blindfold on, amiright?), and ended up essentially crucifying himself. So, he took his dead friend's corpse and used it as a puppet like I'm going to do to you after you die, and then did the same to several other people who formerly served him. Then, when he died doing a reverse kamikaze attack, in which his death let others live(for some reason he was the only one to ever die using this technique), his soul was turned into a puppet, and that was deeply ironic. He also had a lady working with him who was a complete angel."

"Oh. Real nice, huh?"

"Not especially."

"Wh-"

"She could turn into paper."

"Oh, cool. What can he d- wait, did you say you were going to use my corpse as-"

"Well, since he uses the 6 Paths, he has 7 abilities: Penetrating Rods, Gravity Manipulation but only kind of, Summoning animals and himself and his terrifying partner, calling the literal King of Hell, soul fatalities, absorbing energy, and arms."

"Arms as in weapons or limbs?"

"Yeah."

 

[SlendVeny]

Yes. 4T Nard almost killed Jiraiya. All the Sannins are 4.3 GT.

I want to eat my own eyes now.

 

[SlendVeny]

Yeah, I touched on the Ame orphans a little bit.

At least you touched on adult orphans.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

I’m dropping my Minato / Kurama argument. I feel like I was getting too heated and raising the temp on aggression. Nobody needs that this weekend. It’s all passion at the end of the day, and disagreements are unavoidable sometimes.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

 

[Testarossa002]

Naruto has the ability to make a bajillion clones
Enough said

 

[HelloThere1089]

Delta is best girl. No competition.