Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[MysticMania]

Now we just need confirmation it affected the Boom continuity. That would inadvertantly make the games share a cosmology with Archie (and Sonic X, I guess)

A cosmology could work, but Archie and Mainline would need to be in different multiverses due to Worlds Collide's ending I think.

 

[MysticMania]

I know we've discussed this topic to death and back, but Sega wanting the cast to never grow in power fails to make sense when there's 15+ instances that infer a member of the cast growing in strength. Battle alone has like half a dozen, we've had half a dozen more within the past three mainline games, etc., Shadow Gens included now cuz of Metal Overlord.
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Although I agree to the idea of the cast not growing in time, your frustration is understandable for sure. What you are expressing is frustration with how SEGA is handling aspects of Sonic characters and continuity, if I'm understanding it properly, and I would feel I can empathize with you.
I am sorry if I'm misunderstanding though.

 

[SJG13673]

Although I agree to the idea of the cast not growing in time, your frustration is understandable for sure. What you are expressing is frustration with how SEGA is handling aspects of Sonic characters and continuity, if I'm understanding it properly, and I would feel I can empathize with you.
I am sorry if I'm misunderstanding though.

Yeah, cast not growing in power, at least not to major degrees makes far more sense to me, as there are just as many instances of that being the case as those fairly often vague statements of them getting much stronger and stronger, infinitely into higher dimensions, leaving no room for callbacks and fun stories like Scrapnik Island or even Generations, which I think is more important

 

[SJG13673]

But what if.......i cross scale the Emeralds from both and make Movie Sonic tier 2?

Eggman claimed that he could take over the multiverse with Master Emerald, so, that's already a possibility

 

[SJG13673]

Yeah, cast not growing in power, at least not to major degrees makes far more sense to me, as there are just as many instances of that being the case as those fairly often vague statements of them getting much stronger and stronger, infinitely into higher dimensions, leaving no room for callbacks and fun stories like Scrapnik Island or even Generations, which I think is more important

Oh yeah, there is also Silver, if he is from the far future, I wonder why he doesn't one-shot anyone due to scaling infinitely higher than everyone else

 

[Theuser789]

Silver being from the future wouldn't make him one-shot everyone. Sonic cast grows stronger because of training, not age.

 

[SJG13673]

Silver being from the future wouldn't make him one-shot everyone. Sonic cast grows stronger because of training, not age.

Sonic grows stronger by doing literally nothing, with his allies And his enemies always being able to by varying degrees keep up with him due to story needing that, by that logic, Silver, a fighter, should be hundreds of thousands if not infinite amount of times stronger than anyone from the current cast, by the logic powerscaling follows

 

[Omegabronic]

Sonic grows stronger by doing literally nothing, with his allies And his enemies always being able to by varying degrees keep up with him due to story needing that, by that logic, Silver, a fighter, should be hundreds of thousands if not infinite amount of times stronger than anyone from the current cast, by the logic powerscaling follows

No since he wouldn't be alive for hundreds of years.......following your logic, he would only grow for 14 years

 

[SJG13673]

No since he wouldn't be alive for hundreds of years.......following your logic, he would only grow for 14 years

Even if he starts to wear down at his 40-50's, that's still massive amount of potential considering things he did as just a teen

 

[Alexander]

Why the Characters growing in power is a problem?it seems to make more sense to me rather than not

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I'd be able to somewhat understand SEGA's desire to not have Sonic characters grow in strength if, you know, they weren't constantly making new villains that are stronger than the last or having the modern characters do crazy shit compared to their past versions. I mean even in the upcoming Sonic x Shadow Generations, Shadow is capable of fighting very competitively against Metal Overlord, the same boss that fought against Super Sonic and a Chaos Emerald empowered Tails and Knuckles.

Don't mistake me though: the power scaling for Sonic can be very eyebrow raising, especially in cases like Mecha Sonic still being comparable to Modern Sonic, but what SEGA and the IDW comics are showing goes against what they're telling.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Why the Characters growing in power is a problem?it seems to make more sense to me rather than not

I don't think it's a problem, it's moreso the issues that sprout from both sides of the coin.

Btw I don't NEED the cast to grow stronger or anything. Sonic is more than a muscle-hungry shonen. I'd just like them to stop signalling both ways, cuz unironically Frontiers and Shadow Gens is only continuing to push the narrative of some type of growth lol.

Although I agree to the idea of the cast not growing in time, your frustration is understandable for sure. What you are expressing is frustration with how SEGA is handling aspects of Sonic characters and continuity, if I'm understanding it properly, and I would feel I can empathize with you.
I am sorry if I'm misunderstanding though.

Nah man, you didn't misunderstand, that's perfectly on-point. And I can see why you and SJG believe they DON'T grow in power, since there are occasions where no power growth makes more sense at times (Scrapnik Island). Either way, as long as good stories are being told, I couldn't care less.

 

[Omegabronic]

Even if he starts to wear down at his 40-50's, that's still massive amount of potential considering things he did as just a teen

........what is your point? Silver isn't 40, he never reached that age in the games

 

[Alexander]

........what is your point? Silver isn't 40, he never reached that age in the games

And will never reach it

 

[Omegabronic]

I'd be able to somewhat understand SEGA's desire to not have Sonic characters grow in strength if, you know, they weren't constantly making new villains that are stronger than the last or having the modern characters do crazy shit compared to their past versions. I mean even in the upcoming Sonic x Shadow Generations, Shadow is capable of fighting very competitively against Metal Overlord, the same boss that fought against Super Sonic and a Chaos Emerald empowered Tails and Knuckles.

They were Super there

 

[Alexander]

Nah man, you didn't misunderstand, that's perfectly on-point. And I can see why you and SJG believe they DON'T grow in power, since there are occasions where no power growth makes more sense at times (Scrapnik Island). Either way, as long as good stories are being told, I couldn't care less.

Why with Scrapnik is a problem?

 

[SJG13673]

........what is your point? Silver isn't 40, he never reached that age in the games

I'm talking about Sonic, as long as he is capable of fighting and growing in power, everyone around him essentially will be of that level of power, leading to Silver, an Extraordinary Genius combatant in his own right logically be pretty much infinitely stronger than anyone from the present due to power creep leading into the future

 

[SJG13673]

Why with Scrapnik is a problem?

Mecha Sonic was defeated in the classic era and got stranded on a island with other old and outdated Badniks, having no ways of growing stronger, yet still be considered a threat to modern cast who are by Wiki's stats are infinitely stronger than their classic counterparts

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

They were Super there

If only SEGA was courageous enough to depict Knuckles and Tails as being in their Super forms instead of having that golden shield, those ******* cowards

But yeah, you're right. And it actually makes it worse since SxS Shadow is fighting against a boss that fought three Super characters in the past. So again: if SEGA wants to convince me that these characters aren't growing in power whatsoever, they got to stop showing shit like this.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I'm talking about Sonic, as long as he is capable of fighting and growing in power, everyone around him essentially will be of that level of power, leading to Silver, an Extraordinary Genius combatant in his own right logically be pretty much infinitely stronger than anyone from the present due to power creep leading into the future

All the characters in Sonic’s era are either long dead or sealed away by the time Silver is born, so he’d have no future versions of those characters to scale to.

Mecha Sonic was defeated in the classic era and got stranded on a island with other old and outdated Badniks, having no ways of growing stronger, yet still be considered a threat to modern cast who are by Wiki's stats infinitely stronger than their classic counterparts

Tbf Mecha being equal to Modern makes little sense regardless of whether or not the characters grow in power, as due to his damaged state he would probably be weaker and would absolutely be slower than he was before. Not to mention Modern is still way more skilled than before even if he wasn’t any stronger. I don’t think that’s really a power creep issue so much as it is Mecha just being written to be more dangerous for the sake of plot.

 

[SJG13673]

All the characters in Sonic’s era are either long dead or sealed away by the time Silver is born, so he’d have no future versions of those characters to scale to.

I mean he potencially would considering that there could be more unseen characters that are either born with Sonic's cast being middle aged, gaining scaling from them and then would fight younger character etc etc until Silver's time, keeping up the scaling chain, your fairly regular civilians are already capable of keeping up with the likes of Infinite, like Tangle or Avatar

 

[Alexander]

Mecha Sonic was defeated in the classic era and got stranded on a island with other old and outdated Badniks, having no ways of growing stronger, yet still be considered a threat to modern cast who are by Wiki's stats are infinitely stronger than their classic counterparts

Aleka and Miss:i will ignore that

 

[Omegabronic]

I'm talking about Sonic, as long as he is capable of fighting and growing in power, everyone around him essentially will be of that level of power, leading to Silver, an Extraordinary Genius combatant in his own right logically be pretty much infinitely stronger than anyone from the present due to power creep leading into the future

huh.....no? what kind of logic is that? like......i can't see any connection between any of the points here for me to even talk about at all

Also, no, everyone doesn't need to have the same growth rate as Sonic, Battle pretty much confirmed this as he is the only one capable of stopping Awakened Emerl, so yeah

 

[Omegabronic]

I mean he potencially would considering that there could be more unseen characters that are either born with Sonic's cast being middle aged, gaining scaling from them and then would fight younger character etc etc until Silver's time, keeping up the scaling chain, your fairly regular civilians are already capable of keeping up with the likes of Infinite, like Tangle or Avatar

that is you assuming their offspring would still scale to them for some reason, or that they would even have offspring to begin with, or that any of the younger generation would scale to them at all for no reason

 

[SJG13673]

huh.....no? what kind of logic is that? like......i can't see any connection between any of the points here for me to even talk about at all

Also, no, everyone doesn't need to have the same growth rate as Sonic, Battle pretty much confirmed this as he is the only one capable of stopping Awakened Emerl, so yeah

Everyone still scales to him to Low 2-C/2-C, infinitely higher than Emerl at his peak, so yes, yes they do

 

[SJG13673]

that is you assuming their offspring would still scale to them for some reason, or that they would even have offspring to begin with, or that any of the younger generation would scale to them at all for no reason

I am talking about any characters in general, Tangle is a civilian and can fight Rough and Tumble that gave some problems to Sonic and Knuckles

 

[Omegabronic]

Everyone still scales to him to Low 2-C/2-C, infinitely higher than Emerl at his peak, so yes, yes they do

yeah.......which they gained by off screen growth in power in between the time these games are apart, yes.............again, your point just doesn't have any connection with itself to make sense, specially with chars like Infinite talking about how surprised he is that Sonic got much stronger so quickly in Forces

I am talking about any characters in general, Tangle is a civilian and can fight Rough and Tumble that gave some problems to Sonic and Knuckles

a "civilian" with a mutation to have her tail grow several dozens of meters, aka not a normal civilian, who need wispons and such to actually fight


if you think they don't grow at all......explain Sonic Battle, Sonic Forces, Sonic Frontiers, Sonic 2, Sonic Generations, etc..........no matter how you cut it, they not growing makes much less sense that the opposite

 

[BlastX]

Starting to think most of the problems with power growth exist because IDW is considered canon

 

[SJG13673]

yeah.......which they gained by off screen growth in power in between the time these games are apart, yes.............again, your point just doesn't have any connection with itself to make sense, specially with chars like Infinite talking about how surprised he is that Sonic got much stronger so quickly in Forces

Literally proving my point that the stronger Sonic gets, everyone around him especially become just as strong.

a "civilian" with a mutation to have her tail grow several dozens of meters, aka not a normal civilian, who need wispons and such to actually fight

Whisper is comparable to her, being able to take hits from Surge and as far as I know she doesn't have any mutations. Regular civilians partake in a battle against clones of Shadow, Chaos, Metal and Zavok, suffering no losses.

Me believing Silver should be infinitely stronger than everyone else has nothing to do with my belief of them not growing in power

 

[SJG13673]

Starting to think most of the problems with power growth exist because IDW is considered canon

Nah, Forces are a part of that too

 

[Omegabronic]

Literally proving my point that the stronger Sonic gets, everyone around him especially become just as strong.

some do by training off screen......not inherently a he gets stronger

Whisper is comparable to her, being able to take hits from Surge and as far as I know she doesn't have any mutations.

......she has training with the Wisps, so she has good enough justifications

Regular civilians partake in a battle against clones of Shadow, Chaos, Metal and Zavok, suffering no losses.

proof of that?

Me believing Silver should be infinitely stronger than everyone else has nothing to do with my belief of them not growing in power

......? when have i said it did? again, you presented no connected argument for why that would be the case

Nah, Forces are a part of that too

explain Sonic's first fight with Infinite vs their second fight then

 

[Causalist]

Mecha Sonic was defeated in the classic era and got stranded on a island with other old and outdated Badniks, having no ways of growing stronger, yet still be considered a threat to modern cast who are by Wiki's stats are infinitely stronger than their classic counterparts

This is the best argument against power growth, and it comes from IDW, a source which is specifically stated by Ian to have inconsistancies that should be dismissed if they contradict the games

 

[SJG13673]

This is the best argument against power growth, and it comes from IDW, a source which is specifically stated by Ian to have inconsistancies that should be dismissed if they contradict the games

I mean there is also Gens and Forces that have Classic Sonic on par with Modern so, consistent, i guess

 

[Ghengiroo115]

This is the best argument against power growth, and it comes from IDW, a source which is specifically stated by Ian to have inconsistancies that should be dismissed if they contradict the games

Oh yeah, forgot Ian also said that.

On the topic of Scrapnik Island though, Mecha is able to casually manhandle both Tails and Mecha Knuckles with little effort while Eggman’s programming is active. Considering how a less skilled Tails and also Knuckles (the latter of which is slower and less agile than the former) are both able to take on Mecha in the past, Scrapnik Island seems to portray Mecha as stronger than before regardless of whether you consider the characters in general to grow in power.

I mean there is also Gens and Forces that have Classic Sonic on par with Modern so, consistent, i guess

Those are the same two games with the most blatant instances of Sonic growing stronger.

 

[Causalist]

I mean there is also Gens and Forces that have Classic Sonic on par with Modern so, consistent, i guess

The canon timeline split solved that problem, until it was retconned, but it's not like they retconned the power growth along with it since they only continued to emphasize it during and after all those instances. Not to mention the lack of a timeline split results in so many story-breaking pararoxes that are just dismissed that there's no reason not to also dismiss the power-scalling paradoxes.

 

[SJG13673]

Those are the same two games with the most blatant instances of Sonic growing stronger.

Yeah, which in turn make it have even less sense, Classic Sonic growing from 5-A to Low 2-C to one-shot Chaos 0 and fight Egg Dragoon is... bleh

 

[Causalist]

Yeah, which in turn make it have even less sense, Classic Sonic growing from 5-A to Low 2-C to one-shot Chaos 0 and fight Egg Dragoon is... bleh

Your disbelief is not an argument

 

[Omegabronic]

The canon timeline split solved that problem, until it was retconned, but it's not like they retconned the power growth along with it since they only continued to emphasize it during and after all those instances. Not to mention the lack of a timeline split results in so many story-breaking pararoxes that are just dismissed that there's no reason not to also dismiss the power-scalling paradoxes.

Ian said in Bumblekast that the timeline "self corrects" enough for events to play out nearly the same way

 

[Omegabronic]

Yeah, which in turn make it have even less sense, Classic Sonic growing from 5-A to Low 2-C to one-shot Chaos 0 and fight Egg Dragoon is... bleh

considering other instances of Sonic's AD.......it isn't that unbelievable tbh

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Yeah, which in turn make it have even less sense, Classic Sonic growing from 5-A to Low 2-C to one-shot Chaos 0 and fight Egg Dragoon is... bleh

Classic Sonic is a walking paradox, and in the case of Forces (where the main issues lie) is purely there for nostalgia bait. If the same games he’s in repeatedly explicitly shows us that Sonic grows stronger over time, which side should be taken as more reliable?

At the absolute worst/best (depending on which side you’re arguing for) they would just cancel each other out, but in that case you still have all the stuff outside of Gens and Forces which support the power growth.