BC: Ability revisions

[Epsilon_R]

Lucius should gain a layer of power modification, life, mind and soul manip as his Soul Magic works on Devils and Devil hosts, who already have resistance to these effects as listed on their physiology.

Edit: I noticed the Devil Physiology page doesn't have life manip, soul manip and power modification, so here we are.

Soul Manipulation

• One's Mana is said to be the origin of the soul, with the shape of the soul being the one's magic itself. This idea is also backed up by Mereoleona's latest power up.
• Negative Mana affects its user's quality of magic, which can even make them lose their ownership of their grimoire (which is linked to one's soul). In some extreme cases their mana is affected and they become ancient demons.

Life Manipulation

The soul, while being the source of mind and magic, is also the source of life. Since Mana > Soul and Soul > Life, Mana should also be able to affect life. Now here's more concrete evidence.

• Absorbing Mana can make the user younger, losing mana does the opposite.
• Salamander brought Fuegoleon back from his comatose state by pouring Mana into him.
• Negative Mana can physically alter its user.
• Mana is said to dwell in life itself.

Power Modification
As for Power Modification, it's straightforward, negative Mana literally turned Lolopechka's support type water magic into an offensive type Devil Water Magic.
Inb4, in BC attack mages can hardly learn support type spells and vice versa. In Lolopechka's case, she wasn't even able to cast a single offensive spell prior to her modification.

Since Negative Mana gains the aforementioned abilities, Devils and Devil Hosts – who wield tremendous amounts of Negative Mana without being affected – should naturally resist them.

Additional Stuff
I also wanted to talk about Naamah being able to burn light in a place where light is non existent as well as Nacht's spell, which is physically nonexistent. but I'm unsure what ability it would grant.

Edit: Their CM just changes from type 3 to type 2, Nacht also gets CM type 2 to create a world devoid of these concepts (read post #28 for the justification).

Edit 2: I added additional justifications


Agree: Did not count but 1 staff agreed (Duedate)
Neutral:
Disagree:

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Agree

Burning light is burning electromagnetic radiation or photons, so his fire can affect to macro-quantum or quantum level , I don't know which one is right now

 

[Epsilon_R]

Agree

Burning light is burning electromagnetic radiation or photons, so his fire can affect to macro-quantum or quantum level , I don't know which one is right now

Damn you're fast asl, didn't even have the time to send it to yall

Sure, but the thing is that Light doesn't exist in Nacht's world, so he technically burned something that wasn't even there ?

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Damn you're fast asl, didn't even have the time to send it to yall

Sure, but the thing is that Light doesn't exist in Nacht's world, so he technically burned something that wasn't even there ?

But they are refering to be able to burn/freeze shadows, light and invisible concepts, unless they are wanking themselves, they don't have reasons to point out that

 

[chosen]

Top seems fine

Bottom unsure atm

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Agreed. Could you put buring an and freezing something that doesn't "physically exist" as NPI and CM?

 

[Epsilon_R]

CM, no but I suppose it could count as Non-existent NPI or something, idk

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Lucius should gain a layer of power modification, mind and soul manip as his Soul Magic works on Devils and Devil hosts, who already have resistance to these effects as listed on their physiology page.

I checked the physiology but couldn't find Soul Manipulation resistance. Can you show where it's listed?

I also wanted to talk about Naamah being able to burn light in a place where light is non existent as well as Nacht's spell, which is physically nonexistent. but I'm unsure what ability it would grant.

Isn't this already covers in CM type 3 or 2 which is listed in their profiles.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Damn the profiles are more outdated than I thought, oh well.

Well discard the soul part for now

 

[Epsilon_R]

Isn't this already covers in CM type 3 or 2 which is listed in their profiles.

Nacht mentions light and concepts separately, so he's not referring to the concept of light here (even then, Nacht's world is devoid of light to begin with).

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Damn the profiles are more outdated than I thought, oh well.

Well discard the soul part for now

Well, I don't think it qualifies for layered power modification either because it's also not on the physiology page. Regarding mind hax, I'll be neutral on this because it seems like the method used for overwriting the soul is just overwriting the mind. I don't know if this qualifies for layers. Yeah, the physiology page does have mind manipulation resistance, but I don't know if using different methods, and which acts as side effects, qualifies for mind manipulation layers.

Nacht mentions light and concepts separately, so he's not referring to the concept of light here (even then, Nacht's world is devoid of light to begin with).

No? It's clearly mentioned, "It burns everything & freezes everything," then they continue to say light and darkness and concepts. It's the way of explaining how their power works not that at the time light is burning or freezing where light doesn't exist.

Regarding Burning light and shadow seems like NPI and concepts will give type 3 Concept manipulation.

 

[CodeCCLL]

electromagnetic radiation or photons, so his fire can affect to macro-quantum

While manipulating photons is technicaly quantum level on real life, it's macro quantum level on the wiki standards.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

I also wanted to talk about Naamah being able to burn light in a place where light is non existent as well as Nacht's spell, which is physically nonexistent. but I'm unsure what ability it would grant

In the 3 day training with Asta he mentions that his magic is made of non-existent/lacks substances(depends on the translation) that fit the description of void manipulation
The "invisible concepts" he affected with the twins were the "life and death" that did not exist within the shadow world , that would be CM2 as it is affecting the entire shadow world not just the individuals within it
I was waiting for the next chapters to do a CRT on this since there is a system of duality in the verse between light and shadows, which could yield non-duality to antimagic

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

In the 3 day training with Asta he mentions that his magic is made of non-existent/lacks substances that fit the description of void manipulation

Physically doesn't exist ≠ Void manipulation
Lacking substance ≠ Void Manipulation

Void Manipulation, also known as Nothingness Manipulation is the ability to control and manipulate a void: nothingness or non-existence.

Read the bolded part

The "invisible concepts" he affected with the twins were the "life and death" that did not exist within the shadow world , that would be CM2 as it is affecting the entire shadow world not just the individuals within it.

Independent concepts are treated as type 3 in wiki. Need a feat or statements to show those concepts governs the reality.
Edit: Forget this . I just realised the shadow realm can be considered as seperate reality.
This might qualify for type 2 concepts. But void manipulation is a no-no.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Physically doesn't exist ≠ Void manipulation
Lacking substance ≠ Void Manipulation

The first part of the description for VM qualifications says that manipulating "non-existent substances" fits for void manipulation

Edit : In fact, I doubt that manipulating shadows can qualify as any type of matter manipulation, especially with Nacht's own descriptions of "lack of substances".

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The first part of the description for VM qualifications says that manipulating "non-existent substances" fits for void manipulation

Where?

Void Manipulation, also known as Nothingness Manipulation is the ability to control and manipulate a void: nothingness or non-existence

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Where?

Sorry, it is under possible uses

Manipulation of Nothingness: The primary use of this ability, one's control over a 'nonexistent substance'. Naturally this may allow them to be resistant to the effects of existence erasure, as often interacting with a Void also causes one to be converted into a Void, although this may not always be the case.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Sorry, it is under possible uses

Lacking physical substances is contextually seems like talking about how shadow works. His magic is shadow magic right?

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Lacking physical substances is contextually seems like talking about how shadow works.

I agree , but this is more of a case-by-case situation, as not every verse describes shadows being composed of "non-existent substances"

His magic is shadow magic right?

Yes, and magic in the verse is described as "substance manipulation" which means that Nacht is actually manipulating the lack of substances/non-existent substance

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I agree , but this is more of a case-by-case situation, as not every verse that describes shadows being composed of "non-existent substances"

This has nothing to do with non-existent substance here. What you are saying and what Nacht is saying are completely different sentences and words.
Here's the corrected version:

"My magic is non-existent substance" (Your words) & "My magic lacks substance (physically doesn't exist, aka his Shadow magic)" (Nacht's words).

You're merging Nacht's statement with the Void Manipulation page. Nacht didn't say 'non-existent substance.' He said his magic lacks substance (physically doesn't exist) and backed it up with a statement about his magic. His magic isn't non-existent substance.

Yes, and magic in the verse is described as "substance manipulation" which means that Nacht is actually manipulating the lack of substances/non-existent substance

That scan isn't helping anything. Mana influencing other substances doesn't disapproves Shadows themselves do not have physical substance.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

This has nothing to do with non-existent substance here. What you are saying and what Nacht is saying are completely different sentences and words.
Here's the corrected version:

"My magic is non-existent substance" (Your words) & "My magic lacks substance (physically doesn't exist, aka his Shadow magic)" (Nacht's words).

You're merging Nacht's statement with the Void Manipulation page. Nacht didn't say 'non-existent substance.' He said his magic lacks substance (physically doesn't exist) and backed it up with a statement about his magic. His magic isn't non-existent substance.

This depends on the translation, I'll try to find raws of these scans, but I don't know anyone who can translate

That scan isn't helping anything. Mana influencing other substances doesn't disapproves Shadows themselves do not have physical substance.

They are important when macroquantum manipulation (ray magic, light, photons, etc.) already exists within the verse and has a substance, unlike shadow magic.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Here is the raw, and the translation according to Google is as it is in the English scan, but why wouldn't the "lack of existence" fit the VM as well?

 

[CodeCCLL]

shadow magic

Shadows and darkness basically state in the non-existence of Light, but except from in the verses explaining the relationship between darkness and nothingness, darkness and shadow manipulation are depicted as an incorporeal elemental power/energy that is the counterpart of light manipulation, so it is not described as void manipulation.

 

[Epsilon_R]

オレの魔法を…存在しないものを…破った…

Translates to You broke my magic, something that doesn't exist.

The word substance/physically isn't mentioned, it simply doesn't exist

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Shadows and darkness basically state in the non-existence of Light, but except from in the verses explaining the relationship between darkness and nothingness, darkness and shadow manipulation are depicted as an incorporeal elemental power/energy that is the counterpart of light manipulation, so it is not described as void manipulation.

So is there any ability like "incorporeal manipulation" on the Wiki or is it just like normal shadow manipulation?In fact, doesn't the Wiki treat incorporeality as empty/non-existent according to the non-existent physiology page?

The physical body of every character with this ability has to be nonexistent. That means that users always are Incorporeal, unless maybe they physically qualify for Paradoxical Nonexistence. That means that robots or similar don't qualify for spiritual or mental nonexistence, as they physically exist. Incorporeality alone, however, is not enough. The character has to additionally have at least one combination of the following types:

 

[CodeCCLL]

So is there any ability like "incorporeal manipulation" on the Wiki or is it just like normal shadow manipulation?

Normal shadow manipulation because, as I said, shadow manipulation is basically the manipulation of the absence of light, but in the wiki, we give shadow manipulation or darkness manipulation to the characters that manipulate shadows and darkness instead of void manipulation.

In fact, doesn't the Wiki treat incorporeality as empty/non-existent according to the non-existent physiology page?

Non-existent beings are inherently incorporeal, but incorporeal entities are not inherently non-existent entities, they can still exist as some kind of energy, spirit, mind etc.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

whats the tally now?

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

.

Thanks for the clarification

.

You can add CM2 in the OP for Nacht and NPI CM2 for lilith and Naahama (I don `t know how to write it ) as I explained here and EldemadeDityjon agreed here ,unless he has something else to talk about

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Thanks for the clarification

You can add CM2 in the OP for Nacht and NPI CM2 for lilith and Naahama (I don `t know how to write it ) as I explained here and EldemadeDityjon agreed here ,unless he has something else to talk about

Yeah this works I don't have any problem with CM type 2.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Lucius should gain a layer of power modification, mind and soul manip as his Soul Magic works on Devils and Devil hosts, who already have resistance to these effects as listed on their physiology page.

Edit: I noticed the Devil Physiology page doesn't have soul manip and power modification, so here we are.

Negative Mana should gain Soul Manipulation.
One's Mana is said to be the origin of the soul, with the shape of the soul being the one's magic itself.
Negative Mana affects its user's quality of magic, which can even make them lose their ownership of their grimoire (which is linked to one's soul). In some extreme cases their mana is affected and they become ancient demons.

As for Power Modification, it's straightforward, negative Mana literally turned Lolopechka's support type water magic into an offensive type Devil Water Magic.
Inb4, in BC attack mages can hardly learn support type spells and vice versa. In Lolopechka's case, she wasn't even able to cast a single offensive spell prior to her modification.

I also wanted to talk about Naamah being able to burn light in a place where light is non existent as well as Nacht's spell, which is physically nonexistent. but I'm unsure what ability it would grant.

Edit: Their CM just changes from type 3 to type 2, Nacht also gets CM type 2 to create a world devoid of these concepts (read post #28 for the justification).

About layers, I think it needs to be done in the layer evaluation topic,

Spoiler: Soul hax Lucius

Lucius doesn't need layers, having soul magic would be equivalent to having control over the concept of the soul in BC

 

[Epsilon_R]

About layers, I think it needs to be done in the layer evaluation topic,

The hax evaluation thread is an insurance, you don't need it (and that thread is seriously stagnating to be honest).

At the end of the day, you need a few staff to agree so it doesn't even matter

Spoiler: Soul hax Lucius

Lucius doesn't need layers, having soul magic would be equivalent to having control over the concept of the soul in BC

That's not the case nor how concepts works.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

The hax evaluation thread is an insurance, you don't need it (and that thread is seriously stagnating to be honest).

At the end of the day, you need a few staff to agree so it doesn't even matter

I understand

That's not the case nor how concepts works.

 

[Deceived3596]

I'll check out the Conceptual Manipulation later.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I also wanted to talk about Naamah being able to burn light in a place where light is non existent as well as Nacht's spell, which is physically nonexistent. but I'm unsure what ability it would grant.

Edit: Their CM just changes from type 3 to type 2, Nacht also gets CM type 2 to create a world devoid of these concepts (read post #28 for the justification).

Burning Nacht's spell might just be Non-Physical Interaction and CM Type 3

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Negative Mana should gain Soul Manipulation.
One's Mana is said to be the origin of the soul, with the shape of the soul being the one's magic itself.
Negative Mana affects its user's quality of magic, which can even make them lose their ownership of their grimoire (which is linked to one's soul). In some extreme cases their mana is affected and they become ancient demons.

Isn't Patri got affected because Zagris whatever that devil name is corrupting him (It's been a while I read BC so can't remember the name lol)

As for Power Modification, it's straightforward, negative Mana literally turned Lolopechka's support type water magic into an offensive type Devil Water Magic.
Inb4, in BC attack mages can hardly learn support type spells and vice versa. In Lolopechka's case, she wasn't even able to cast a single offensive spell prior to her modification.

This is after she was turned into devil host or whatever right? How this has anything to do with Mana? (As I said it's been a while I read the series so I forgot the events)

 

[Epsilon_R]

Isn't Patri got affected because Zagris whatever that devil name is corrupting him (It's been a while I read BC so can't remember the name lol)

Basically he was overflowing with negative Mana, just like Licht before (Except Licht resisted it).
The only thing Zagred may have done is, well, make him overflow with Negative Mana.

This is after she was turned into devil host or whatever right?

She's not a devil host, you mistook her for Sister Lily
Regardless, there's also Patry's case.

How this has anything to do with Mana? (As I said it's been a while I read the series so I forgot the events)

Anything that uses Negative Mana is considered Forbidden Magic, so while things like Devils power and all have different name, it's still uses negative Mana.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Bump

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Bump

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Bump

 

[Joshyyy_64]

So uh, what happens next? Are we still waiting on staff for additions?