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Big Alien X Downgrade (Wait…haven't we been here before?)

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Idk if this matters, but the Contumelia say that the Extra-dimensional barrier is specifically designed to protect them from the Annihilaargh’s activation, and they also describe it as an “upcoming release of energy”. This means the Big Bang has two instances of being able to significantly harm beings (with one instance being against higher dimensional beings) and an instance of being absorbed by an energy manipulator. Skurd’s Celestialsapien arm is also consistently shown to be the only thing there that scales to the Big Bang physically.

I mention this because if that big bang thread is ruled as a “case-by-case” thing, then I think in this case the Big Bang should definitely be something someone can physically scale to.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The point is that, in both cases, both are not full Celestialsapiens. Aggregor would be even less then if anything because of the Osmosian method. And both wouldn’t be considered physically as strong as one. Aggregor only having 1/10th the power of a Celestialsapien because of that drawback from Osmioans ability absorption is explicit proof that he can’t get the full power of a Celestialsapien. Only a fraction of it. But despite that, he is still considered to have their “Omnipotence”.
Click to expand...
Like you also said , Omnipotence can't be divided , even if we agree with
infinite power of Alien X, then still 1/10th and 100% will be considered same because is can't be divided

As for atomic X thing , he doesn't have 1/2 of Alien X 's abilities but rather has his half DNA (rest half is Atomics' DNA) , so he would logically inherit their half characteristics as well (means he have traits and alleles of a 3D being) this is what makes him vulnerable to time


As for "not scaling high physically" we can still use that feat of Celestialsapien DNA sword to scale his physical abilities , ap and reality wrapping equal
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
Idk if this matters, but the Contumelia say that the Extra-dimensional barrier is specifically designed to protect them from the Annihilaargh’s activation, and they also describe it as an “upcoming release of energy”. This means the Big Bang has two instances of being able to significantly harm beings (with one instance being against higher dimensional beings) and an instance of being absorbed by an energy manipulator. Skurd’s Celestialsapien arm is also consistently shown to be the only thing there that scales to the Big Bang physically.
Click to expand...

The problem with this, however, is that there’s a few things you have to remember about big bangs.

One thing is that there are still things about a big bang that can still be lethal about it that don’t have anything to do with energy. Such as the heat generated by it and radiation, which could still harm Ben and the others without protection. So a big bang doesn’t necessarily have to output the same level of destructive output as its creation in order to still cause harm to targets.

But the second thing, that’s even more problematic with this, is that we’re saying an action of creation can also simultaneously have destructive output relative to it. Which doesn’t make any sense. Power that is used to create something also can’t simultaneously have the destructive force behind it to destroy you, because it’s doing literally the exact opposite of destruction. It’s not destroying anything, but creating, so what destructive output would there be? And while power that’s used to create can most certainly be put into destruction, that’s only when it’s specifically converting that power into an actual destructive action, because of UES shenanigans.

Example: You poof a universe into existence and then convert that very same energy into an energy blast, or convert it to you physically punching someone. That’s scaling the destructive AP. But not while the creation is happening.

Not to mention, something I take confusion and issue with, is that if you argue a creation feat still has the destructive output aspect to it at the same time, then you are also essentially saying that a creation feat automatically scales to destruction on the same level without needing to fulfill the requirements that our Creation feat standards go through the efforts of establishing in the first place. Which is something that is obviously a concern.

Ghengiroo115 said:
I mention this because if that big bang thread is ruled as a “case-by-case” thing, then I think in this case the Big Bang should definitely be something someone can physically scale to.
Click to expand...

Hopefully this can get clarified in that thread.

Note: might be my last response for a little while. Just another heads up.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The problem with this, however, is that there’s a few things you have to remember about big bangs.

One thing is that there are still things about a big bang that can still be lethal about it that don’t have anything to do with energy. Such as the heat generated by it and radiation, which could still harm Ben and the others without protection. So a big bang doesn’t necessarily have to output the same level of destructive output as its creation in order to still cause harm to targets.

But the second thing, that’s even more problematic with this, is that we’re saying an action of creation can also simultaneously have destructive output relative to it. Which doesn’t make any sense. Power that is used to create something also can’t simultaneously have the destructive force behind it to destroy you, because it’s doing literally the exact opposite of destruction. It’s not destroying anything, but creating, so what destructive output would there be? And while power that’s used to create can most certainly be put into destruction, that’s only when it’s specifically converting that power into an actual destructive action, because of UES shenanigans.

Example: You poof a universe into existence and then convert that very same energy into an energy blast, or convert it to you physically punching someone. That’s scaling the destructive AP. But not while the creation is happening.

Not to mention, something I take confusion and issue with, is that if you argue a creation feat still has the destructive output aspect to it at the same time, then you are also essentially saying that a creation feat automatically scales to destruction on the same level without needing to fulfill the requirements that our Creation feat standards go through the efforts of establishing in the first place. Which is something that is obviously a concern.
Click to expand...
The thing about the Big Bang in the context of Ben 10 though is that they put a lot of emphases on it functioning as a physical burst of energy. It can be absorbed by Feedback (who can only absorb different forms of energy), the explosion threatens incorporeal fifth-dimensional beings (might be a moot point but I’m not sure if stuff like extreme heat or radiation could threaten a being like that) and the exposition about the ED barrier specifically mentions the “upcoming release of energy” (implying it’s the energy itself that threatens the Contumelia and not some other property about it).

Obviously the real-life Big Bang functions differently than that (admittedly I’m not well-versed on how it’s believed to work), however in the context of Ben 10 it seems to be treated as simply a burst of energy. Not only is the Ben 10 Big Bang caused by an artificial device rather than natural causes, but it’s also fiction so it doesn’t necessarily have to follow our rules if it doesn’t want to. Hell Paradox says that different universes in Ben 10 have their own laws of physics, so the device that created all of them also following different laws isn’t that farfetched.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Note: might be my last response for a little while. Just another heads up.
Click to expand...
No problem, take all the time you need.
 
Sorry for getting back to this late. The weekend was busy for me and then yesterday because of work.

Ghengiroo115 said:
The thing about the Big Bang in the context of Ben 10 though is that they put a lot of emphases on it functioning as a physical burst of energy. It can be absorbed by Feedback (who can only absorb different forms of energy), the explosion threatens incorporeal fifth-dimensional beings (might be a moot point but I’m not sure if stuff like extreme heat or radiation could threaten a being like that) and the exposition about the ED barrier specifically mentions the “upcoming release of energy” (implying it’s the energy itself that threatens the Contumelia and not some other property about it).

Obviously the real-life Big Bang functions differently than that (admittedly I’m not well-versed on how it’s believed to work), however in the context of Ben 10 it seems to be treated as simply a burst of energy. Not only is the Ben 10 Big Bang caused by an artificial device rather than natural causes, but it’s also fiction so it doesn’t necessarily have to follow our rules if it doesn’t want to. Hell Paradox says that different universes in Ben 10 have their own laws of physics, so the device that created all of them also following different laws isn’t that farfetched.
Click to expand...

I mean, maybe? Im not really certain how it being a physical energy burst would mean it wouldn’t have those other properties.

But this response doesn’t give an explanation for the real problem with this here:


ProfessorKukui4Life said:
But the second thing, that’s even more problematic with this, is that we’re saying an action of creation can also simultaneously have destructive output relative to it. Which doesn’t make any sense. Power that is used to create something also can’t simultaneously have the destructive force behind it to destroy you, because it’s doing literally the exact opposite of destruction. It’s not destroying anything, but creating, so what destructive output would there be? And while power that’s used to create can most certainly be put into destruction, that’s only when it’s specifically converting that power into an actual destructive action, because of UES shenanigans.

Example: You poof a universe into existence and then convert that very same energy into an energy blast, or convert it to you physically punching someone. That’s scaling the destructive AP. But not while the creation is happening.

Not to mention, something I take confusion and issue with, is that if you argue a creation feat still has the destructive output aspect to it at the same time, then you are also essentially saying that a creation feat automatically scales to destruction on the same level without needing to fulfill the requirements that our Creation feat standards go through the efforts of establishing in the first place. Which is something that is obviously a concern.



Hopefully this can get clarified in that thread.
Click to expand...

Even if we take into account this big bang being a physical energy burst, the problem of how that energy acts and its level of output is still a major issue for how I pretty much explained the problem above.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Sorry for getting back to this late. The weekend was busy for me and then yesterday because of work.
Click to expand...
No worries, I’m responding late too lol

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I mean, maybe? Im not really certain how it being a physical energy burst would mean it wouldn’t have those other properties.
Click to expand...
It’s not to say that those other properties don’t exist, just that they exist in conjunction with the burst of energy.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Even if we take into account this big bang being a physical energy burst, the problem of how that energy acts and its level of output is still a major issue for how I pretty much explained the problem above.
Click to expand...
it just works on different laws of physics. Admittedly the Big Bang in Ben 10 has contradictions no matter which way you put it, but since it’s a fictional world I feel it makes more sense to go by their rules rather than our own rules in this case.

I also want to bring up the implications of the Big Bang being unable to break through the ED barrier. Doesn’t that imply that the ED barrier can contain a possibly 1-B structure expanding within it? Wouldn’t that make it scale to the Big Bang’s creation by default? This isn’t rhetorical, I’m genuinely not sure here but thought I should mention it.
 
Just to mention that we do allow fictional stuff to have energy beyond what allowed by physics, since physics caps at high 3-A, but we still allow 1-C, 1-B, 1-A attack potency, and attack potency is basically energy/time. So by default greater than high 3-A AP.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Can you elaborate on which points of contention held the most sway to your opinion so we may focus on that topic further?
Click to expand...
Others didn't elaborate on why they disagree, why I need to elaborate on why a agree?

Naw I'm playing, give me a bit. I got another thread somewhere wanted me to look over, after that I'll bring up the points I'd like to discuss.
 
Okay, sooooo I the two main points I agree with the OP on are.

The Statements (Not all)

To explain exactly were I stand in agreement with OP, I 100% without question agree that Alien X and it's kind scale above the Chronosapien Time Bomb, Chrono Navigator and so on in terms of their "power" given the statements/feats (by power, I mean creation, reality warping, and erasure since that last one can be used as AP given the staff thread). However, I don't find "some" of those scans worth much in terms of their physical prowess being at such a level (like the forge of creation having the greatest power were ideas become real) those types of statements "can" refer to someone's abilities rather than their actual physical might. Now this isn't to say their is nothing that backs it up, I think the fear of cutting through the extra dimensional barrier works in a way but that falls in line to the whole big bang stuff being discussed which is out of my field. But this is just what put me on the neutral side of things (I'd prefer just not using some of those statements). Below is what leans me towards agreeing with the OP.

Atomic X (Yeah this fraud)

The Atomic X scaling, and yes, I've seen few (not all) of the arguments pertaining to it and I don't find them convincing enough. Now this isn't to say I believe others are wrong in regards to the scaling of Atomic X to Alien X (I think I took part in a past discussion about this) but the way I see it, it's an anti-feat to Alien X physicals. For example, an argument I recall is that fusion aliens like that are weaker but to me, that's vague because Atomic X is currently several Infinities weaker than Alien X but if we assumed such a drop is because fusions are the issue then every other one becomes infinitely weaker than the individual aliens, or is such a drop in power only related to Alien X fusions because.... Reasons? Another argument is, it's only taking the DNA not the power, but then that goes against the physicals of Alien X being comparable to its power. Now the other interpretation is it's DNA doesn't provide the physical statistics either... Then I ask, what is the point of Atomic X? Like seriously, if he's not getting the physiology boost or powers that make Alien X strong then there is no point in the fusion other than Ben 10000 looking like an idiot for fusing them just to try a box with the death wall and got erased.

Now I do apologize if people already provide proper arguments to these, I haven't been able to keep up with every point made regarding this topic so if you have, you can just quote it and I'll take a look when I can. But just to make clear, my point is that I haven't seen a definitive reason the Atomic X anti feat in depth. Now if someone with that knowledge can provide me with the exact reasonings I'd be in favor of disagreeing with the downgrade or returning to neutral at minimum. I would also like it if only one or two user responds, because I can't discuss something with like three users commenting the same. (So whoever are the two Ben 10 experts, whenever you have the time, can you explain the Atomic X arguments)
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
Another argument is, it's only taking the DNA not the power, but then that goes against the physicals of Alien X being comparable to its power. Now the other interpretation is it's DNA doesn't provide the physical statistics either... Then I ask, what is the point of Atomic X? Like seriously, if he's not getting the physiology boost or powers that make Alien X strong then there is no point in the fusion other than Ben 10000 looking like an idiot for fusing them just to try a box with the death wall and got erased.
Click to expand...
DNA combination does provide them some specific boosts from each species that combining but doesn't necessarily on the same lvl as individual or even comparable to them but mainly a single DNA that is based of DNA of both species but provide specific traits with lose of one or another. There's statement regarding Duncan as well that DNA's in biomatrix are diluted but keeping it aside. We have Bigchuck struggling against regular minions of Eon and infact is being taken down by them with pure physical force, also way smaller in height and definitely not comparable to waybig we know of who can passively take on entire army at any day and time.
 
I think Professor Paradox's words about the omnipotence of Alien X are very true, as is the fact that he is the most powerful being in the entire franchise, too. Moreover, he was the only one who showed the ability with which he could distort reality in the entire cartoon. This scales up to the very top of the verse and cannot be lower than the level of other characters and technologies.
 
I'll be making one more comment to make sure I've properly delivered what I want to say regarding fusions; I'm not saying that fusions will be definitely weaker/stronger/not-comparable/comparable- but that it can be any of them. But just not necessarily single one of them, depending upon how far of loss in one abilities from individual species fusion has suffered- it's drop or increase in potential of certain haxes or raw power due to altered/re-written DNA. As seen during Atomic X or Bigchuck, they're far weaker- but some fusions are stronger- knowing this I'd rather judge them based on their feats than to guess. Also that Ben has told Rook once when he was telling him to go to Alien X that "Alien X is entirely different thing" but yet we see Ben 10000 continusely turning into Atomic X on regular basis (Literally to bully lost, weakened Vilgax). We also saw in vilgax attack game (accepted as canon) that how when Ben when wanted to turn into Alien X to save earth from getting destroyed since it was too late to stop vilgax, professor paradox immediately stopped him from using it saying "It's not the right time to use Alien X".
 
Reiner04 said:
I'll be making one more comment to make sure I've properly delivered what I want to say regarding fusions; I'm not saying that fusions will be definitely weaker/stronger/not-comparable/comparable- but that it can be any of them. But just not necessarily single one of them, depending upon how far of loss in one abilities from individual species fusion has suffered- it's drop or increase in potential of certain haxes or raw power due to altered/re-written DNA. As seen during Atomic X or Bigchuck, they're far weaker- but some fusions are stronger- knowing this I'd rather judge them based on their feats than to guess. Also that Ben has told Rook once when he was telling him to go to Alien X that "Alien X is entirely different thing" but yet we see Ben 10000 continusely turning into Atomic X on regular basis (Literally to bully lost, weakened Vilgax). We also saw in vilgax attack game (accepted as canon) that how when Ben when wanted to turn into Alien X to save earth from getting destroyed since it was too late to stop vilgax, professor paradox immediately stopped him from using it saying "It's not the right time to use Alien X".
Click to expand...
wouldn't the fact that maltruant clapping atomic-x while not being able to open the barrier, nor tank the big bang show atomic-x is fodder
 
OMNIVERSAL-KING said:
We can cancel this via simplest logic of genetics aka having traits and alleles of both beings (Alien X and atomics)
He is bounded by time due to Atomics' traits and alleles
Click to expand...
I don't understand at all why we compare Alien X and aliens who have a piece of his DNA. There are a lot of examples in the cartoon when the carrier of a DNA particle is much weaker than a DNA donor. This is perfectly noticeable at the moment when Chromastone could not break the extradimension barrier with his bare hands, but with a fraction of X's strength he could. It's literally like comparing which is stronger, 1/10 of the strength or 1?
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
it just works on different laws of physics. Admittedly the Big Bang in Ben 10 has contradictions no matter which way you put it, but since it’s a fictional world I feel it makes more sense to go by their rules rather than our own rules in this case.
Click to expand...
and what is the contradiction? We have always been shown moments with the Big Bang, when it is already in a state after leaving the singularity. I think it scales perfectly.
 
While discussing btw each other in crt's can be done I think its not a good idea to do it in a CRT that is nearing it's 7th page regardless if it's 3rd page as per old standard, since it's still impact readability of a CRT. It's quite unnecessary to express dissatisfaction towards something more than once or twice (but please refrain from any further). This crt is nearing it's conclusion too. So ig making use of Ben 10 general discussion thread might be a good idea. It's better to let Griffin make his stance clear after clarification provided, then discussion can be continued if one wish to but let's keep the things readable here for him so that he feel comfortable regarding the topic/thread.
 
Sorry for the delay but I will respond sometime today. I've been mentally exhausted currently due to irl issues and I'm backed up with like 10 different verse reworks with a couple of evaluation requests that I still need to get to but this thread has been bumped to my to do list for today because I know you guys want to get things moving.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
Sorry for the delay but I will respond sometime today. I've been mentally exhausted currently due to irl issues and I'm backed up with like 10 different verse reworks with a couple of evaluation requests that I still need to get to but this thread has been bumped to my to do list for today because I know you guys want to get things moving.
Click to expand...
NP. Take care and don't be stressed.
 
@LordGriffin1000 my apologies for doing one more comment when u specifically told to not make it lengthy and since your health is not good currently but I just happen to have a doubt regarding which may affect this thread, not necessarily tho incase it seems that "Greatest power", "Infinite power", "Omnipotent" must be referring to only reality warping or if that makes way more sense than otherwise or scaling it to his general statistics as whole- but I'm fine either way. Only thought to bring it up separately in notice I apologise again. (But you can choose to ignore this post if u find it not being of worth noticing or unconvincing, that's understandable too).

My point was if we can simply go with likely rating regarding Celestial sapiens scaling above Chrinosapien timebomb or chrononavigator due to being consistently represented as being superior to everything in the verse or smth?

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be favourable. This term should be used sparingly.
Click to expand...

But as i said before, don't be stressed and feel free to state ur opinion, and sorry if my continuous post annoyed u I'm dumb to not think of everything since beginning uggghhhhh.
 
Last edited:
Reiner04 said:
DNA combination does provide them some specific boosts from each species that combining but doesn't necessarily on the same lvl as individual or even comparable to them but mainly a single DNA that is based of DNA of both species but provide specific traits with lose of one or another. There's statement regarding Duncan as well that DNA's in biomatrix are diluted but keeping it aside. We have Bigchuck struggling against regular minions of Eon and infact is being taken down by them with pure physical force, also way smaller in height and definitely not comparable to waybig we know of who can passively take on entire army at any day and time.
Click to expand...

Reiner04 said:
I'll be making one more comment to make sure I've properly delivered what I want to say regarding fusions; I'm not saying that fusions will be definitely weaker/stronger/not-comparable/comparable- but that it can be any of them. But just not necessarily single one of them, depending upon how far of loss in one abilities from individual species fusion has suffered- it's drop or increase in potential of certain haxes or raw power due to altered/re-written DNA. As seen during Atomic X or Bigchuck, they're far weaker- but some fusions are stronger- knowing this I'd rather judge them based on their feats than to guess. Also that Ben has told Rook once when he was telling him to go to Alien X that "Alien X is entirely different thing" but yet we see Ben 10000 continusely turning into Atomic X on regular basis (Literally to bully lost, weakened Vilgax). We also saw in vilgax attack game (accepted as canon) that how when Ben when wanted to turn into Alien X to save earth from getting destroyed since it was too late to stop vilgax, professor paradox immediately stopped him from using it saying "It's not the right time to use Alien X".
Click to expand...
Now I think get it. They basically become their own alien at that point, just a fusion that takes traits but not always function at the capacity of the original, possibly having drawbacks or advantages the singular aliens wouldn't which clearly involve statistics as well. Do I understand the point you're trying to make correctly?

Reiner04 said:
@LordGriffin1000 my apologies for doing one more comment when u specifically told to not make it lengthy and since your health is not good currently but I just happen to have a doubt regarding which may affect this thread, not necessarily tho incase it seems that "Greatest power", "Infinite power", "Omnipotent" must be referring to only reality warping or if that makes way more sense than otherwise or scaling it to his general statistics as whole- but I'm fine either way. Only thought to bring it up separately in notice I apologise again. (But you can choose to ignore this post if u find it not being of worth noticing or unconvincing, that's understandable too).

My point was if we can simply go with likely rating regarding Celestial sapiens scaling above Chrinosapien timebomb or chrononavigator due to being consistently represented as being superior to everything in the verse or smth?


But as i said before, don't be stressed and feel free to state ur opinion, and sorry if my continuous post annoyed u I'm dumb to not think of everything since beginning uggghhhhh.
Click to expand...
It's something I'm just on the fence about but like I said, it's not something I completely agree or disagree with, and it's not like Alien X doesn't have some reasonable statements. I just think specific statements shouldn't be used to support physicals scaling.

With that said. If I understand the argument regarding those fusions correctly, I'll change my overall stance to disagreeing with the OP on the downgrade but i still think we shouldn't use some statements (to back physical scaling) given their interpretation. Now depending on how the Big Bang stuff turns out and the OP replies, i might change my stance but i think I can safely say the fusion Atomic X ain't an issue for me anymore. Anyway, I've got a other threads I need to checkout before I tap out for today, y'all stay civil.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
Do I understand the point you're trying to make correctly?
Click to expand...
Yup. That's what I meant.
LordGriffin1000 said:
It's something I'm just on the fence about but like I said, it's not something I completely agree or disagree with, and it's not like Alien X doesn't have some reasonable statements. I just think specific statements shouldn't be used to support physicals scaling.

With that said. If I understand the argument regarding those fusions correctly, I'll change my overall stance to disagreeing with the OP on the downgrade but i still think we shouldn't use some statements (to back physical scaling) given their interpretation.
Click to expand...
I'm kind of fine with this tbh. I mostly think it's just how one interprets these statements and how one don't based on context/feats/showings/etc. so as much as I'm against it for reasons I've stated, I think i can understand why PPL have contrary opinions on it too. Also don't be stressed and rest.
 
As much i love to see these types of aftermath discussions in crt's, go to general discussion and tier 4 crt 🐘 shu shu.
 
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