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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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Kairach said:
Can you show me a statement from every SCP writer saying that they don't care about scaling?
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Do you also want me to grab statements from writers that have died, quit the internet, or just left writing SCP in general?

Or are you keeping to the far-more-reasonable request of getting personal assurances from all 1000 active writers that they don't care about power scaling?
 
As much as I don't like some of the higher tier SCPs for mostly being wanked for the sake of being wanked (looking at you 682) acting like every SCP writer cares about powerscaling isn't accurate. The wiki having a shit ton of them isn't because it's the majority, it's just because those are the ones people wanted to make profiles for, some cause they're high tier but that's besides the point
 
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
Blackcurrant has asked Ultima directly and Ultima said yes from what he recalled of the cosmology

If anything we get upgraded since the Low 1-A layer we have for the Warp would just be bumped to a full 1-A
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For real I'm very surprised the Warp isn't 1-A+ or even High 1-A.

Phoenks said:
The moment the tiering system changes and the verse gets downgraded we going to see an ultimate monad thing in SCP guaranteed 🤣
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Probably.
 
Agnaa said:
Do you also want me to grab statements from writers that have died, quit the internet, or just left writing SCP in general?

Or are you keeping to the far-more-reasonable request of getting personal assurances from all 1000 active writers that they don't care about power scaling?
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The latter, if you can show me that there aren't any SCP writers that don't do power scaling then you got me there.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
If this is supposed to be the case, precise evidence is needed for this. Where's it?
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Why are you treating this like a debate/CRT? This is a casual talk about a verse I haven't battleboarded in 4 years.

If you actually want to approach it this way, to make sure I'm not wasting my time, what "precise evidence" would you want for a claim like that?
 
Eseseso said:
Probably.
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If an average internet person tried to write one, it would get hacked off the site in less than a day. I cannot stress this enough, but though SCP has a few dozen Tier 1 and 0 profiles here, such characters are absolutely the exception to the rule. The vast majority of the over 7000 SCPs are weaker than modern IRL human technology. The SCP site has very high quality control standards, and you could probably count the authors skilled and reputable enough to write such powerful stuff on two hands. Also, even if a reputable author tried to write one there, PlaceholderMcD's meta-gimmick of making every canon a "mega-universe" is bound to ruin it.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
If an average internet person tried to write one, it would get hacked off the site in less than a day.

The SCP site has very high quality control standards, and you could probably count the authors skilled and reputable enough to write such powerful stuff on two hands.
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Generally, but sometimes hot garbage like this slips through, and stays up.
The Creator had countless aspects, avatars, incarnations, and manifestations across all of the infinite layers of existence, innumerable layers of nonexistence, and the numberless layers of transcendent reality beyond the conceptual duality and distinction between existence and nonexistence.
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This was not some renowned user. It was this author's first contribution to the site. Their two other attempts in a similar vein were quickly downvoted and deleted, and never left the draft stage, respectively.
 
Will an SCP that's treated like a monad happen? Possibly. Will it be soon? Most likely no. There'd have to be something more to it than just "oh this is a monad look at how cool it is". It'd have to be at least semi-original and on top of that people have to actually like it enough for our whole like-system to let it be usable.
 
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
Will an SCP that's treated like a monad happen? Possibly. Will it be soon? Most likely no. There'd have to be something more to it than just "oh this is a monad look at how cool it is". It'd have to be at least semi-original and on top of that people have to actually like it enough for our whole like-system to let it be usable.
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Maybe, if the SCP writers don't write something stronger than it.
 
Agnaa said:
To be replaced by:
  1. Your verse doesn't have things beyond time and space!
  2. Your verse doesn't have R>F!
  3. Your verse doesn't have platonic concepts!
  4. Your verse doesn't have jungian archetypes!
  5. Your verse doesn't have divine simplicity!
  6. Your verse doesn't have apophatic theology!
  7. Your verse doesn't have omnipotence!
Type IV multiverses are still going to be Low 1-A, btw, so that'll get thrown around a lot too.

As far as I can tell, there will not be more proof to reach high tiers. Ultima is vastly loosening the burden of proof for being beyond dimensions, allowing R>F to automatically jump to beyond dimensions, and allowing multiple philosophical concepts that we didn't previously tier to reach tier 0.

I am very confident that there will be more 1-A and High 1-A characters, and think there will be more tier 0 verses, but not characters, due to SCP getting screwed over by the monad requirement.
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How will the concept of "omnipotence" be treated as fundamental? Also, will beings that are beyond space-time, that are currently tier 1, will they be directly 1-A in this system? Ultima had a list for that and almost all of the characters were at least 1-A or higher, but I don't know more details
 
Georredannea15 said:
How will the concept of "omnipotence" be treated as fundamental? Also, will beings that are beyond space-time, that are currently tier 1, will they be directly 1-A in this system? Ultima had a list for that and almost all of the characters were at least 1-A or higher, but I don't know more details
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Assuming you're referring to BDE type 2, nah it's not automatically 1-A, that's just good supporting evidence for that under his system. Though, like Ultima said iirc, most stories that already have evidence for BDE type 2 accidentally write it in a way that works for 1-A also.
 
Georredannea15 said:
How will the concept of "omnipotence" be treated as fundamental?
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I don't know what you mean by this.
Georredannea15 said:
Also, will beings that are beyond space-time, that are currently tier 1, will they be directly 1-A in this system?
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Characters that have BDE Type 2 (and actually qualify; Ultima found that a fair few don't) will be Low 1-A at minimum. If they also have indications of being more real, as most would, they'd be 1-A.
 
Agnaa said:
I don't know what you mean by this.
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I mean, if a character in a series is called "omnipotent", does that character scale minimum to Low 1-A or higher? How will the wiki handle this?
Agnaa said:
Characters that have BDE Type 2 (and actually qualify; Ultima found that a fair few don't) will be Low 1-A at minimum. If they also have indications of being more real, as most would, they'd be 1-A.
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Wow, in this system, be tier 1 and also being beyond/transcends the space-time... 1-A seems a little easy in the new system.:unsure:
 
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
Assuming you're referring to BDE type 2, nah it's not automatically 1-A, that's just good supporting evidence for that under his system. Though, like Ultima said iirc, most stories that already have evidence for BDE type 2 accidentally write it in a way that works for 1-A also.
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So you are saying that besides the BDE type 2 statements, they also have a few things that go to 1-A or Low 1-A.
 
Georredannea15 said:
So you are saying that besides the BDE type 2 statements, they also have a few things that go to 1-A or Low 1-A.
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Yeah iirc Ultima initially had BDE type 2 as one of the ways to get into 1-A but then it changed so BDE type 2 is just a good piece of evidence but you need an ontological difference also I think
 
Georredannea15 said:
I mean, if a character in a series is called "omnipotent", does that character scale minimum to Low 1-A or higher? How will the wiki handle this?
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We haven't really talked about this yet, since we're saving omnipotence for a later thread. It sounds like the answer is "no", but as that will be an easy-to-misinterpret fundamental part of our highest tier, I still expect to see wank like that on other sites.
Georredannea15 said:
Wow, in this system, be tier 1 and also being beyond/transcends the space-time... 1-A seems a little easy in the new system.:unsure:
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You don't really need to be tier 1 in other ways. You could be tier 2 under the current system, and still make it there that way.
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
Yeah iirc Ultima initially had BDE type 2 as one of the ways to get into 1-A but then it changed so BDE type 2 is just a good piece of evidence but you need an ontological difference also I think
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BDE Type 2 will get to Low 1-A. It's now intended as the tier for all sets in ZFC/Type IV multiverses/BDE-2.
 
Agnaa said:
We haven't really talked about this yet, since we're saving omnipotence for a later thread. It sounds like the answer is "no", but as that will be an easy-to-misinterpret fundamental part of our highest tier, I still expect to see wank like that on other sites.
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I see.
Agnaa said:
You don't really need to be tier 1 in other ways. You could be tier 2 under the current system, and still make it there that way.
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But Ultima said that in order to have BDE type 2, you must first be tier 1 in this system, because you must be ontologically above to the space-time.
 
Georredannea15 said:
I mean, if a character in a series is called "omnipotent", does that character scale minimum to Low 1-A or higher? How will the wiki handle this?
Click to expand...
There would have to be proof for a character to be omnipotent rather than just a name-drop, even if said character was omnipotent you would then have to prove what is possible for them to do, that's just my understanding and take on the topic. Also there are limits to omnipotent characters, they are just the peak of their verse at the end of the day.
 
Georredannea15 said:
But Ultima said that in order to have BDE type 2, you must first be tier 1 in this system, because you must be ontologically above to the space-time.
Click to expand...
Hm, I was just thinking about cases I've seen of R>F being rated at tier 2. So I assumed that something similar would still bump up to (Low) 1-A.

If the thing the character is ontologically superior to is vague (i.e. is maybe just a finite amount of space), characters with ontological differences can just be tier 2.
 
Robo432343 said:
no wtf
it will be even more harder to get 1-A now
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I don't think so, it seems to have gotten easier, but the requirements and details of things like BDE, R>F and "omnipotence" will be discussed in another thread, maybe they can make the requirements stricter and more difficult there. I don't know, I may have spoken too soon.
 
Georredannea15 said:
I don't think so, it seems to have gotten easier, but the requirements and details of things like BDE, R>F and "omnipotence" will be discussed in another thread, maybe they can make the requirements stricter and more difficult there. I don't know, I may have spoken too soon.
Click to expand...
it will not be easier or harder, just a different metric.
 
Agnaa said:
Hm, I was just thinking about cases I've seen of R>F being rated at tier 2. So I assumed that something similar would still bump up to (Low) 1-A.
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Ahhh... Then I misunderstood you, I meant BDE type 2 not R>F.
Agnaa said:
If the thing the character is ontologically superior to is vague (i.e. is maybe just a finite amount of space), characters with ontological differences can just be tier 2.
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Then i guess a lot of it depends on the context of the verse.
Kairach said:
it will not be easier or harder, just a different metric.
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But this changing metric makes things easier than they used to be. But as I said, there will be another thread to discuss for the requirements, so we'll have to wait for that. Because this thing is still not finished
 
Georredannea15 said:
But this changing metric makes things easier than they used to be.
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I don't understand what you were trying to say with this. I can make a system where characters who follow philosophy scale higher, I can also make a system where characters who follow math scale higher, neither of them are easier because they favor towards a certain things, it will not be easier just different.
 
Kairach said:
I don't understand what you were trying to say with this. I can make a system where characters who follow philosophy scale higher, I can also make a system where characters who follow math scale higher, neither of them are easier because they favor towards a certain things, it will not be easier just different.
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A system where every character with more than 2 vowels in their name is tier 0 would be different, and it would be easier.

Ultima's idealised system is easier since it adds many paths to higher tiers which weren't viable before, and lowers the requirement for previously-viable routes. While it does place a lower cap on math-based verses, series purely based on that weren't very common, and so the impact of that change is relatively minor.
 
Agnaa said:
A system where every character with more than 2 vowels in their name is tier 0 would be different, and it would be easier.

Ultima's idealised system is easier since it adds many paths to higher tiers which weren't viable before, and lowers the requirement for previously-viable routes. While it does place a lower cap on math-based verses, series purely based on that weren't very common, and so the impact of that change is relatively minor.
Click to expand...
You can make statements that the system we have right now is easier or harder, but you would need valid proof for the claim. Something that hasn't come to light yet you can't make judgment on, as on paper it might sound easier but we still need to see it in practice, if it is somehow worse in practice then we can always make another revision and change the system to either a new one or the one we have now. No system will ever be perfect so why don't we push systems that make everyone happy rather than a select few?
 
Kairach said:
You can make statements that the system we have right now is easier or harder, but you would need valid proof for the claim. Something that hasn't come to light yet you can't make judgment on, as on paper it might sound easier but we still need to see it in practice, if it is somehow worse in practice then we can always make another revision and change the system to either a new one or the one we have now. No system will ever be perfect so why don't we push systems that make everyone happy rather than a select few?
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Agnaa has already said that if a solution cannot be found for this, the right of veto should be used or different requirements should be introduced. But, I think it can be done and ridiculous wanks and chaos and assumptions can be avoided
 
Georredannea15 said:
Agnaa has already said that if a solution cannot be found for this, the right of veto should be used or different requirements should be introduced. But, I think it can be done and ridiculous wanks and chaos and assumptions can be avoided
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I think you're misinterpreting what I said.

I said that, to enforce the standards that Ultima sees as ideal in terms of which R>F standards qualify, it may be a good idea to implement some measures to make sure people don't accidentally evaluate by old standards. Such as by only letting certain people evaluate, or letting certain people "veto" certain upgrades from being accepted.
 
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