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Dreams Within Dreams Upgrade

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Hello and welcome, everyone, to our team’s latest effort in proving and solidifying the existence of High 1-A Godzilla. Following our unsuccessful attempt at establishing 1-A+ in our previous CRT, I alongside Yayady, with additional insights drawn from past contributors such as Arceus0x, CitrusReality, and many others firmly believe we have now uncovered concrete evidence supporting High 1-A Godzilla Singular Point. So, without further ado, we present to you…

Godzilla Singular Point H1-A and High 1-A+ Upgrade

First, let me clarify: since this analysis involves considerable Japanese text interpretation, to avoid misunderstandings, we will use IT to refer to both the entity itself and its manifestations. Although we are accustomed to calling its manifestation "Ultima," in fact, this term refers to a specific stage of a three-dimensional body that a lower-level IT takes in a lower-dimensional context. Neither the anime nor the novel uses the word "Ultima", only the original designation IT《それ》 and the name humans gave it, Godzilla ゴジラ.

First, this passage:

《それ》は夢から醒さめる夢から醒め、またその夢から醒める夢を見ていた。夢の中で夢を見てまた夢見ていた。どこまでいってもその繰り返しに果てはなく、《それ》が見ているものは決して醒めることのできない夢で、誰も入り込むことのできない夢とも言え。

Let’s analyze this Japanese sentence carefully.

夢の中で夢を見てまた夢見ていた

First, look at the first part:

夢の中で夢を見て

This means “to dream within a dream.” The question is, who is dreaming within the dream? If 《それ》(IT)is dreaming, then who is the one dreaming inside the dream of IT?

The answer is obvious. It is still IT.

It can be seen that there are two distinct hierarchical levels of IT, and the lower-level IT exists within the dream of the higher-level IT. According to the text, this IT within the dream is itself still dreaming, and this process is endless (その繰り返しに果てはなく). This indicates that IT does not merely have two levels. In principle, it possesses infinite levels.

Why do we first emphasize this point?

Because various descriptions related to IT appear in the text. If we fail to recognize that there are different hierarchical levels of IT, descriptions about IT may be conflated. For example, descriptions like “a hyper-spatial tree,” “a Gödel universe,” “countless battles,” or “infinite dimensions” are indeed descriptions of IT or the physical environment within its dreams but which IT? Which level?

We do not need to specify exactly, but we know it must be a IT at a certain level. However, for any given level of IT, there are infinitely many IT above it and infinitely many IT below it because this is a 決して醒めることのできない夢 (a dream that can never be awakened from), and also a 誰も入り込むとのできない夢 (a dream that no one can enter).

Let’s further argue this point by returning to the first sentence of the original text:
《それ》は夢から醒さめる夢から醒め、またその夢から醒める夢を見ていた
Here, IT is repeatedly awakening.
夢から醒め
This means IT awakens from a dream. What dream did it have?
夢から醒さめる夢
It dreamed of awakening from a dream.

Thus, this is a process of continual awakening. Unlike the previous process that is dreaming within a dream, which is a descent deeper into dreams, awakening from a dream is an ascent to higher dream levels. So there are two directional axes here.

After describing these two axes, the text states:
どこまでいってもその繰り返しに果てはなく

Meaning: “No matter how far you go, this repetition has no end.”

繰り返し means repetition. There were two types of repetition mentioned earlier: one is continual awakening, and the other is continual dreaming within dreams. Both are endless. This is the fundamental structure of the dream hierarchy.

Now, having clarified the dream hierarchy, let’s address a few issues.

First, there has long been a notion that the dream hierarchy corresponds to dimensional hierarchy. However, this notion completely contradicts the original text above.
We know that a dimensional hierarchy is one where there can be infinite levels above any given dimension, but only finite levels below it.

For example, a 5th dimensional space has only five levels below it. Yet the description of dreams in the text clearly states that dreaming within a dream can continue infinitely meaning there are infinite levels in the direction of descending deeper into dreams. Therefore, the dream hierarchy cannot possibly be a dimensional hierarchy.

The root cause is that a dimensional hierarchy always has a starting point. A minimum dimension, such as 0 dimensional. But the text explicitly states that dreams can descend infinitely and there is no lowest dream level.

The fact that dimensions have a starting point can also be clearly seen from the differentials in Grassmann algebra, where serves as the starting basis element.

ufD8sNb.png


Next, let's look at Toh Enjoe's expanded descriptions of dreams.

First, examine this passage from the beginning of the novel:

In the first three parts of this passage, IT dreams in different places and sometimes in the abyss of the sea, sometimes high in the sky, sometimes deep underground. But after each of these three descriptions, the following phrase is added:

今も見ている

Translated, this means "even now, it is dreaming there."

This clearly implies that at the same time, across different spatial points, different dreams are taking place. Different IT exist in different locations, experiencing different dreams.

Then, a rather peculiar kind of dream appears, though this dream narrative also has a starting point.

Look at the first sentence:

《それ》は、過去の夢を見ており

As written here, the starting point is IT dreaming of the past. This is entirely different from the later infinite hierarchical structure of both endlessly awakening and endlessly descending into deeper dreams.

The original text then continues: dreaming of the future in the past, and in the future, dreaming of dreaming of the future in the past. For it, the "present" is the aggregate of all dreams in which past and future intertwine, exhausting all possibilities.

This can be understood as a collection of dreams that exhaust all possible pasts and futures. Dreaming of the past is the starting point; from this past, it dreams of the future, and from there, everything unfolds.

We can contrast this dream description with a previous one:

時間の底で夢を見ていた

Here, IT is neither in the past nor the future and it is dreaming at the "bottom of time."

It should be noted that all the above descriptions related to dream structures appear before the description of infinite dream layers.

Thus, let's summarize the overall expansion of dream-related structures:

The first three sentences of the novel state that IT dreams at different spatial points. Then, along the timeline, it is sometimes in the past, sometimes in the future, and finally, it exhausts all possibilities of interwoven pasts and futures. Before this, there is also mention of dreaming at the "bottom of time"—a place outside the timeline. After all this, the author further expands the dream hierarchy, introducing the description of infinite dream layers.

Here, we see an expansion process: from space → to time → to all possible pasts and futures (including the "bottom of time," a place outside time) → and finally, to infinite dream layers.

Finally, let’s discuss the two directions of dreams and their meanings:

Regarding the two directional descriptions of the infinite layers of IT, one is infinitely upward (awakening), and the other is infinitely downward (descending deeper into dreams).

The infinite upward direction clearly corresponds to evolutionary ascent. However, the infinite downward direction requires further explanation.

If an infinite upward direction implies something originally below ascending upward, then an infinite downward direction implies something already above, looking down from a perspective that transcends, descending into the depths of dreams. It does not need to evolve; what evolves are the IT within the dreams. The awakening of these ITs within the dreams corresponds to an upward evolution. However, these dreams are ultimately impossible to awaken from (決して醒めることのできない夢). This means that no matter how infinitely the ITs inside the dreams evolve, they can never reach the transcendent being that exists outside. Such an IT is not attained through evolution, an evolution simply cannot reach it, as it already resides at a higher plane from the beginning.

Thus, dreams can be viewed from two perspectives: one as an upward evolutionary hierarchy, and the other as a downward hierarchy of a transcendent being.

Therefore, while at the Omega Point it remains at L1-A, tearing through the Omega Point elevates it to 1-A.

The IT that continuously awakens within dreams reaches 1-A+.

And the IT that serves as the dreaming entity transcends all dreams. No matter how many times the lower-level ITs awaken, this entity never truly awakens—it remains an existence they can never reach. This places it at least at H1-A.

High 1-A+ Dreams

Let’s first examine this passage:
あるいはえそれは、古今東西の伝奇をいっしょくたに混ぜ込んだ事典のようでもあり、その時代時代の空想科学小説における「理論」の図鑑のようでもあった。生命の本質は、火水風地の四大元素であり、電磁気でありえ、ただのDNAでありえ、アモルファス金属でありえ、情報でありえ、宇宙の形は、地球を中心として太陽が周囲を経めぐるものでありえ、何層もの殻に包まれた卵のようなものでありえ、虚空にウェディングケーキのように聳そびえる山でありえ、超光速移動を用いても辿り着くことのできない、無数の浄土の配置でありえた。

それらの宇宙は可能であったが、単純に、それが存在することは選び取られなかったという理由によって存在していなかった。
The main point here is to illustrate which universes are possible.

Among these are the following two sentences:

First, this line:
古今東西の伝奇をいっしょくたに混ぜ込んだ事典のようでもあり
Means: Like an encyclopedia that jumbles together legends from all times and places.

Then this line:
その時代時代の空想科学小説における「理論」の図鑑
At first glance this might seem odd because the same word 時代 appears twice, but it is not a printing error—this is a reduplication in Japanese.
時代時代 actually means “each era” or “every age.”

Next, 空想科学小説 appears. What is 空想科学小説 exactly?

We see that it is a translation of “science fiction,”

Thus, the meaning of the original sentence is:

A pictorial guide of the “theories” appearing in the science-fiction novels of each era.

The original text then lists some examples and finally concludes:
それらの宇宙は可能であったが、単純に、それが存在することは選び取られなかったという理由によって存在していなかった。
This means: Those universes were possible, but they did not exist simply because their existence was not chosen.

In other words, the theories appearing in the science-fiction novels of every era are possible universes. The legends and tales from all times and places are also possible universes and they do not currently exist only because they were not selected to exist.

Now let’s look at this paragraph:

そこではあらゆることが起こりえて、想像可能なあらゆることが同時に起こったところで意外とするほどのことではなくなっていた。

Earlier it was stated that possible universes do not exist because they were not chosen.

But here the description changes:

そこではあらゆることが起こりえて

あらゆること means “everything.” and 起こりえて means “can happen.”

Thus, the meaning of this sentence is that: In that place, everything can happen.

This implies that all those things which were possible but not selected earlier, whether the theories from each era’s science fiction or the fantasy stories from all times and places can now occur.

The author goes even further in the following text:

想像可能なあらゆることが同時に起こったところで意外とするほどのことではなくなっていた。

Here, 想像可能なあらゆること means “everything that can be imagined.”

So the whole sentence means:

Even if everything imaginable happened simultaneously, it would no longer be surprising.

To summarize:

This cosmology shifts from a state where universes exist selectively to a state where everything is possible. Everything imaginable, be it the fantasy tales from all ages or the theories from each era’s science fiction can happen. Considering that Toh Enjoe himself is a science-fiction writer, this is quite intriguing.

@That_moron2 @GodzillavsRayquaza @Planck69 @TyranoDoom30
 
Last edited:
Hello and welcome, everyone, to our team’s latest effort in proving and solidifying the existence of High 1-A Godzilla. Following our unsuccessful attempt at establishing 1-A+ in our previous CRT, I alongside Yayady, with additional insights drawn from past contributors such as Arceus0x, CitrusReality, and many others firmly believe we have now uncovered concrete evidence supporting High 1-A Godzilla Singular Point. So, without further ado, we present to you…

Godzilla Singular Point H1-A and High 1-A+ Upgrade

First, let me clarify: since this analysis involves considerable Japanese text interpretation, to avoid misunderstandings, we will use IT to refer to both the entity itself and its manifestations. Although we are accustomed to calling its manifestation "Ultima," in fact, this term refers to a specific stage of a three-dimensional body that a lower-level IT takes in a lower-dimensional context. Neither the anime nor the novel uses the word "Ultima", only the original designation IT《それ》 and the name humans gave it, Godzilla ゴジラ.

First, this passage:



Let’s analyze this Japanese sentence carefully.



First, look at the first part:



This means “to dream within a dream.” The question is, who is dreaming within the dream? If 《それ》(IT)is dreaming, then who is the one dreaming inside the dream of IT?

The answer is obvious. It is still IT.

It can be seen that there are two distinct hierarchical levels of IT, and the lower-level IT exists within the dream of the higher-level IT. According to the text, this IT within the dream is itself still dreaming, and this process is endless (その繰り返しに果てはなく). This indicates that IT does not merely have two levels. In principle, it possesses infinite levels.

Why do we first emphasize this point?

Because various descriptions related to IT appear in the text. If we fail to recognize that there are different hierarchical levels of IT, descriptions about IT may be conflated. For example, descriptions like “a hyper-spatial tree,” “a Gödel universe,” “countless battles,” or “infinite dimensions” are indeed descriptions of IT or the physical environment within its dreams but which IT? Which level?

We do not need to specify exactly, but we know it must be a IT at a certain level. However, for any given level of IT, there are infinitely many IT above it and infinitely many IT below it because this is a 決して醒めることのできない夢 (a dream that can never be awakened from), and also a 誰も入り込むとのできない夢 (a dream that no one can enter).

Let’s further argue this point by returning to the first sentence of the original text:

Here, IT is repeatedly awakening.

This means IT awakens from a dream. What dream did it have?

It dreamed of awakening from a dream.

Thus, this is a process of continual awakening. Unlike the previous process that is dreaming within a dream, which is a descent deeper into dreams, awakening from a dream is an ascent to higher dream levels. So there are two directional axes here.

After describing these two axes, the text states:


Meaning: “No matter how far you go, this repetition has no end.”

繰り返し means repetition. There were two types of repetition mentioned earlier: one is continual awakening, and the other is continual dreaming within dreams. Both are endless. This is the fundamental structure of the dream hierarchy.

Now, having clarified the dream hierarchy, let’s address a few issues.

First, there has long been a notion that the dream hierarchy corresponds to dimensional hierarchy. However, this notion completely contradicts the original text above.
We know that a dimensional hierarchy is one where there can be infinite levels above any given dimension, but only finite levels below it.

For example, a 5th dimensional space has only five levels below it. Yet the description of dreams in the text clearly states that dreaming within a dream can continue infinitely meaning there are infinite levels in the direction of descending deeper into dreams. Therefore, the dream hierarchy cannot possibly be a dimensional hierarchy.

The root cause is that a dimensional hierarchy always has a starting point. A minimum dimension, such as 0 dimensional. But the text explicitly states that dreams can descend infinitely and there is no lowest dream level.

The fact that dimensions have a starting point can also be clearly seen from the differentials in Grassmann algebra, where serves as the starting basis element.

ufD8sNb.png


Next, let's look at Toh Enjoe's expanded descriptions of dreams.

First, examine this passage from the beginning of the novel:

In the first three parts of this passage, IT dreams in different places and sometimes in the abyss of the sea, sometimes high in the sky, sometimes deep underground. But after each of these three descriptions, the following phrase is added:



Translated, this means "even now, it is dreaming there."

This clearly implies that at the same time, across different spatial points, different dreams are taking place. Different IT exist in different locations, experiencing different dreams.

Then, a rather peculiar kind of dream appears, though this dream narrative also has a starting point.

Look at the first sentence:



As written here, the starting point is IT dreaming of the past. This is entirely different from the later infinite hierarchical structure of both endlessly awakening and endlessly descending into deeper dreams.

The original text then continues: dreaming of the future in the past, and in the future, dreaming of dreaming of the future in the past. For it, the "present" is the aggregate of all dreams in which past and future intertwine, exhausting all possibilities.

This can be understood as a collection of dreams that exhaust all possible pasts and futures. Dreaming of the past is the starting point; from this past, it dreams of the future, and from there, everything unfolds.

We can contrast this dream description with a previous one:



Here, IT is neither in the past nor the future and it is dreaming at the "bottom of time."

It should be noted that all the above descriptions related to dream structures appear before the description of infinite dream layers.

Thus, let's summarize the overall expansion of dream-related structures:

The first three sentences of the novel state that IT dreams at different spatial points. Then, along the timeline, it is sometimes in the past, sometimes in the future, and finally, it exhausts all possibilities of interwoven pasts and futures. Before this, there is also mention of dreaming at the "bottom of time"—a place outside the timeline. After all this, the author further expands the dream hierarchy, introducing the description of infinite dream layers.

Here, we see an expansion process: from space → to time → to all possible pasts and futures (including the "bottom of time," a place outside time) → and finally, to infinite dream layers.

Finally, let’s discuss the two directions of dreams and their meanings:

Regarding the two directional descriptions of the infinite layers of IT, one is infinitely upward (awakening), and the other is infinitely downward (descending deeper into dreams).

The infinite upward direction clearly corresponds to evolutionary ascent. However, the infinite downward direction requires further explanation.

If an infinite upward direction implies something originally below ascending upward, then an infinite downward direction implies something already above, looking down from a perspective that transcends, descending into the depths of dreams. It does not need to evolve; what evolves are the IT within the dreams. The awakening of these ITs within the dreams corresponds to an upward evolution. However, these dreams are ultimately impossible to awaken from (決して醒めることのできない夢). This means that no matter how infinitely the ITs inside the dreams evolve, they can never reach the transcendent being that exists outside. Such an IT is not attained through evolution, an evolution simply cannot reach it, as it already resides at a higher plane from the beginning.

Thus, dreams can be viewed from two perspectives: one as an upward evolutionary hierarchy, and the other as a downward hierarchy of a transcendent being.

Therefore, while at the Omega Point it remains at L1-A, tearing through the Omega Point elevates it to 1-A.

The IT that continuously awakens within dreams reaches 1-A+.

And the IT that serves as the dreaming entity transcends all dreams. No matter how many times the lower-level ITs awaken, this entity never truly awakens—it remains an existence they can never reach. This places it at least at H1-A.

High 1-A+ Dreams

Let’s first examine this passage:

The main point here is to illustrate which universes are possible.

Among these are the following two sentences:

First, this line:

Means: Like an encyclopedia that jumbles together legends from all times and places.

Then this line:

At first glance this might seem odd because the same word 時代 appears twice, but it is not a printing error—this is a reduplication in Japanese.
時代時代 actually means “each era” or “every age.”

Next, 空想科学小説 appears. What is 空想科学小説 exactly?

We see that it is a translation of “science fiction,”

Thus, the meaning of the original sentence is:

A pictorial guide of the “theories” appearing in the science-fiction novels of each era.

The original text then lists some examples and finally concludes:

This means: Those universes were possible, but they did not exist simply because their existence was not chosen.

In other words, the theories appearing in the science-fiction novels of every era are possible universes. The legends and tales from all times and places are also possible universes and they do not currently exist only because they were not selected to exist.

Now let’s look at this paragraph:



Earlier it was stated that possible universes do not exist because they were not chosen.

But here the description changes:



あらゆること means “everything.” and 起こりえて means “can happen.”

Thus, the meaning of this sentence is that: In that place, everything can happen.

This implies that all those things which were possible but not selected earlier, whether the theories from each era’s science fiction or the fantasy stories from all times and places can now occur.

The author goes even further in the following text:



Here, 想像可能なあらゆること means “everything that can be imagined.”

So the whole sentence means:

Even if everything imaginable happened simultaneously, it would no longer be surprising.

To summarize:

This cosmology shifts from a state where universes exist selectively to a state where everything is possible. Everything imaginable, be it the fantasy tales from all ages or the theories from each era’s science fiction can happen. Considering that Toh Enjoe himself is a science-fiction writer, this is quite intriguing.
I dont see High 1A let alone High 1A+

No comment to 1A+ since I dont hold knowledge about IT Godzilla.

Transcending supposed to be 1A+ isnt High 1A. From your arguments i didnt see quality change
 
Transcending supposed to be 1A+ isnt High 1A. From your arguments i didnt see quality chchange
Where does it scale then? Cause frok what I've seen, transcending 1-A+ is High 1-A. The avatar is 1-A+, it goes through infinite R>F SCP-3812 style. The true form exists outside of the dream entirely, being unreachable, and dreaming up the setting, it should qualify for High 1-A
 
Where does it scale then? Cause frok what I've seen, transcending 1-A+ is High 1-A. The avatar is 1-A+, it goes through infinite R>F SCP-3812 style. The true form exists outside of the dream entirely, being unreachable, and dreaming up the setting, it should qualify for High 1-A
You have to prove quality change for High 1A

Simply "transcending whole framework" might be 1A+ +1 layer. High 1A works on quality change

I dont even know if it is OTL accepted in first place just in first glance it seems not enough to be High 1A
 
You have to prove quality change for High 1A

Simply "transcending whole framework" might be 1A+ +1 layer. High 1A works on quality change

I dont even know if it is OTL accepted in first place just in first glance it seems not enough to be High 1A
It seems enough to be High 1-A if the avatar is 1-A+. The dreams are 1-A+, and IT is the dreamer of the entire reality, it dreams up the entire setting including the 1-A+ dreams.

Basically, the 1-A+ dreams are still the "fictional" part to IT, since, well its just dreams. The True IT is the actual "real" part, existing outside of the dream hierarchy entirely.

The Leviathan from The Unwritten gets to High 1-A for something very similar. And "Layers into 1-A+" is a thing I've never seen before, lol.
 
You have to prove quality change for High 1A

Simply "transcending whole framework" might be 1A+ +1 layer. High 1A works on quality change

I dont even know if it is OTL accepted in first place just in first glance it seems not enough to be High 1A
But all the layers of 1-A are capped by the framework itself how would it be a layer into it if it's going beyond the framework of 1-A itself
 
It seems enough to be High 1-A if the avatar is 1-A+. The dreams are 1-A+, and IT is the dreamer of the entire reality, it dreams up the entire setting including the 1-A+ dreams.

Basically, the 1-A+ dreams are still the "fictional" part to IT, since, well its just dreams. The True IT is the actual "real" part, existing outside of the dream hierarchy entirely.

The Leviathan from The Unwritten gets to High 1-A for something very similar. And "1 layer into 1-A+" isn't a thing
so basically you are saying IT is dreamer of that dreams meaning still same algorithm. Good job you refuted argument of High 1A yourself.

There can be layers of 1A+. Read this: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/DC_Comics_Cosmology
 
But all the layers of 1-A are capped by the framework itself how would it be a layer into it if it's going beyond the framework of 1-A itself
Read this:

Characters or objects who operate on a different, superior qualitative framework from 1-A entities. That is to say: If there is a hierarchy of 1-A layers, each of which operates within the same framework, with the same "algorithm" dictating the difference between them, a High 1-A character would transcend the framework entirely, and instead operate on a different, higher hierarchy, governed by another, likewise higher algorithm. In other words, whereas 1-A is a qualitative superiority, High 1-A represents a "meta"-qualitative superiority.

In another words "Algorithm" change.
 
This thread is really hard to read.

For now, I’ll just briefly comment on the High 1-A+ part, because honestly, having another debate about the dream argument is incredibly tiring. I swear I already debunked that in the previous thread, but oh well, it doesn’t matter.

This means: Those universes were possible, but they did not exist simply because their existence was not chosen.

In other words, the theories appearing in the science-fiction novels of every era are possible universes. The legends and tales from all times and places are also possible universes and they do not currently exist only because they were not selected to exist.

This is not High 1-A+, not even close. It doesn't even serve as support for High 1-A+, it’s just a completely irrelevant part of the text that seems to be there just for filler.

This implies that all those things which were possible but not selected earlier, whether the theories from each era’s science fiction or the fantasy stories from all times and places can now occur.

Okay, so?

Here, 想像可能なあらゆること means “everything that can be imagined.”

So the whole sentence means:

Even if everything imaginable happened simultaneously, it would no longer be surprising.

To summarize:

This cosmology shifts from a state where universes exist selectively to a state where everything is possible. Everything imaginable, be it the fantasy tales from all ages or the theories from each era’s science fiction can happen. Considering that Toh Enjoe himself is a science-fiction writer, this is quite intriguing.

Nowhere close to High 1-A+. "Everything possible" is an extremely generic label that indicates the totality of elements in a set, but it doesn’t establish how encompassing the set actually is. Therefore, it’s impossible to treat it as a maximal modal set without engaging in mental gymnastics worthy of an Olympic competitor.

Go back and reread what High 1-A+ is on the wiki.
 
It seems enough to be High 1-A if the avatar is 1-A+. The dreams are 1-A+, and IT is the dreamer of the entire reality, it dreams up the entire setting including the 1-A+ dreams.

Basically, the 1-A+ dreams are still the "fictional" part to IT, since, well its just dreams. The True IT is the actual "real" part, existing outside of the dream hierarchy entirely.

The Leviathan from The Unwritten gets to High 1-A for something very similar. And "1 layer into 1-A+" isn't a thing

According to VSBW's Q&A list:

Q: Is transcending an 1-A character to the same degree they transcend normal humans High 1-A?
A: Generally speaking, no. The first level of 1-A is obtained by surpassing the composition of a lower reality, such that no union, combination or permutation of things within it, no matter how numerous, can attain to the higher level. The next level up repeats this pattern, so that no union, permutation or combination of things in the previous level can attain to it. And so on and so forth. As such, this proportion is already covered by a single additional level.

However, depending on the context, it can be High 1-A or supporting evidence for it, indeed. Specifically, if the statement is not meant to be inform the actual proportion between the powers of two characters, but simply their relative position in a cosmology. As, in a certain respect, it is valid to say that "High 1-A transcends 1-A in the same way 1-A transcends lower tiers," insofar as High 1-A transcends the generic quality defining a hierarchy or potential hierarchy of qualitative layers, just as 1-A transcends the qualities defining all conceivable dimensional spaces.
IT seeing the entire 1A+ structure as "a dream" doesn't quite qualify enough for H1A, as 1A+ can be achieved through having an infinite series of R>F. In the same sense with dimensional scaling having a separation between H1B and H1B+ despite both having "infinite dimensions" (countable vs uncountable), 1A+ can also have characters who are larger degrees of infinite R>F over other 1A+ (as stupid/ridiculous as that sounds).

Infinite R>F vs Infinite R>F + 1 essentially. IT specifically has to operate on a completely separate framework, or else it's just infinity + 1 R>F over the rest of the structure.

As for the example you used...

The Leviathan from The Unwritten gets to High 1-A for something very similar. And "1 layer into 1-A+" isn't a thing

Then maybe someone could check if the Leviathan's CRT shows actual proof it operates on a separate superior framework instead of just (potentially) being another R>F layer over the infinite hierarchy. However, that would derail the thread and should be made separately for another argument since it's for a completely different verse.
 
so basically you are saying IT is dreamer of that dreams meaning still same algorithm. Good job you refuted argument of High 1A yourself.
Nope, because IT is the Dreamer, the real part, the dreams are just dreams. The novel makes it explicit: no matter how many dreams there are, no matter how deep they go, it will not wake up IT. No matter how far the avatar traverses into the dreams, it will not wake up true form. The same statements about there being infinite dreams, and same hierarchy containing "every possible dream" And again. The Unwritten is High 1-A on this site, from something very similar to IT.
 
Nope, because IT is the Dreamer, the real part, the dreams are just dreams. The novel makes it explicit: no matter how many dreams there are, no matter how deep they go, it will not wake up IT. No matter how far the avatar traverses into the dreams, it will not wake up true form. The same statements about there being infinite dreams, and same hierarchy containing "every possible dream" And again. The Unwritten is High 1-A on this site, from something very similar to IT.
Why dreams are 1A+ then? For R > F through others?
 
Asking what quality does have supposed to be 1A hierarchy
The OP made a confusing thread to be honest. There was another argument that we were using, about surpassing the Omega Point being 1-A, due to the statement of Godzilla growing beyond dimensions and the context for OP being Low 1-A already. Then it starts going through infinite dreams, r>f over it. But I feel like we should start over and make a better post not gonna lie
 
Is there even evidence that each dream is trivialized as nonexistent from the higher dream?

R>F is only 1-A if you can demonstrate that each layer transcends the total composition of the lower layer.

Anyways, even granting that line of scaling IT would be at max 1-A+, not High 1-A, since he would be the upper bound of that "hierarchy".
 
The OP made a confusing thread to be honest. There was another argument that we were using, about surpassing the Omega Point being 1-A, due to the statement of Godzilla growing beyond dimensions and the context for OP being Low 1-A already. Then it starts going through infinite dreams, r>f over it. But I feel like we should start over and make a better post not gonna lie
I agree with this thread being confused, but with this args if we assume just Dreams within dreams 1A+ meaning R > F IT cant be High 1A with this reasoning since he has R F over R F hierarchy. Unless I am mistaken about dreams 1A+ reasoning i genuinely dont see High 1A there
 
Is there even evidence that each dream is trivialized as nonexistent from the higher dream?

R>F is only 1-A if you can demonstrate that each layer transcends the total composition of the lower layer.

Anyways, even granting that line of scaling IT would be at max 1-A+, not High 1-A, since he would be the upper bound of that "hierarchy".
I mean yeah, the dreams are stacked within each other infinitely a dream that contains a dream, that goes on infinitely.

But i feel like I explained how it can be High 1-A with this. IT exists OUTSIDE of it.
Nope, because IT is the Dreamer, the real part, the dreams are just dreams. The novel makes it explicit: no matter how many dreams there are, no matter how deep they go, it will not wake up IT. No matter how far the avatar traverses into the dreams, it will not wake up true form. The same statements about there being infinite dreams, and same hierarchy containing "every possible dream".
 
I agree with this thread being confused, but with this args if we assume just Dreams within dreams 1A+ meaning R > F IT cant be High 1A with this reasoning since he has R F over R F hierarchy. Unless I am mistaken about dreams 1A+ reasoning i genuinely dont see High 1A there
Even if the IT dreams up the entire setting and is stated to exist outside of it and cannot be reached through it
 
I mean yeah, the dreams are stacked within each other infinitely a dream that contains a dream, that goes on infinitely.

That's not what I asked, read again my message.

Is there even evidence that each dream is trivialized as nonexistent from the higher dream?

R>F is only 1-A if you can demonstrate that each layer transcends the total composition of the lower layer.

Quoting the Tiering System:

A 1-A character or realm, on the other hand, fundamentally surpasses lower states of existence, with their sheer superiority not being expressible as the sum, union or permutation of anything in these lesser states. They, in other words, transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness.

I need evidence of something like this.
 
That's not what I asked, read again my message.



Quoting the Tiering System:



I need evidence of something like this.
I know what you asked, I'm saying that each dream is contained within each other, since they're infinite stacked basically. Each dream contains a dream within itself basically
 
I know what you asked, I'm saying that each dream is contained within each other, since they're infinite stacked basically. Each dream contains a dream within itself basically

My guy, that’s not evidence that each dream is above the composition of every possible lower level.

You can use the "dreams within dreams" analogy to express quantitative superiorities or simply dimensional differences.

If there isn’t any evidence to support that, then I disagree with the entire thread.
 
My guy, that’s not evidence that each dream is above the composition of every possible lower level.

You can use the "dreams within dreams" analogy to express quantitative superiorities or simply dimensional differences.

If there isn’t any evidence to support that, then I disagree with the entire thread.
Well, I mean, there is already some evidence that the dreams explicitly are not dimensional
 
I share opinion with Bern. Moreover even if we assume thats 1A+ evidence isnt enough for High 1A.

Put me on disagree also
 
you said that IT only exists in the upper bound of that "hierarchy", yet I have tried to explain that it exists outside of it completely. I feel like an infinite stack of dreams with the context already entailing they are beyond-dimensional would be enough for 1-A+
 
Read this:

Characters or objects who operate on a different, superior qualitative framework from 1-A entities. That is to say: If there is a hierarchy of 1-A layers, each of which operates within the same framework, with the same "algorithm" dictating the difference between them, a High 1-A character would transcend the framework entirely, and instead operate on a different, higher hierarchy, governed by another, likewise higher algorithm. In other words, whereas 1-A is a qualitative superiority, High 1-A represents a "meta"-qualitative superiority.

In another words "Algorithm" change.
It requires algorithm changes in context to superiority which is granted by conceptually transcending the framework of 1-A
It can't operate in the he same algorithm if it's transcendent to it
 
It requires algorithm changes in context to superiority which is granted by conceptually transcending the framework of 1-A
It can't operate in the he same algorithm if it's transcendent to it
I feel like you misunderstood what they meant by "algorithm"
 
Well, I mean, there is already some evidence that the dreams explicitly are not dimensional
you said that IT only exists in the upper bound of that "hierarchy", yet I have tried to explain that it exists outside of it completely. I feel like an infinite stack of dreams with the context already entailing they are beyond-dimensional would be enough for 1-A+
so are we just going to not reply to what I said
 
you are repeating what we argued before so I dont see how it counters neither my nor Bern's argument so lets wait staff instead
I'm not really repeating, just rewording what I said differently to try and explain my thought process better.
 
originally our argument was slightly different, it would be more like this, I think we should try and start over and make a new thread. Because this one is not that good, tbh...
 
What would it be then?
Algorithm refers to a sequence of rules generally
Reason why it is qualitative. In other words, if hierarchy is based on r > f, you have to transcend it with another quality, not R > F, to be High 1A. Which is not the case, cuz it argues dreams upon dreams (R > F) and you are telling IT dreams this all(Exact same R F) meaning it is just same algorithm thus no quality change, same algorithm, thus no High 1A
 
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