Trafalgar Law vs Zagred

[Nierre]

following

 

[Kachon123]

Zagred resists layered powernull

Law can coat his attacks with Haki, which has layered resistance negation.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Law can coat his attacks with Haki, which has layered resistance negation.

Like Zagred would let Law try the same attack again after failing the first time. I don’t even see a first time happening cuz Law dies to hordes of life eating monsters and attack spamming.

 

[Kachon123]

Like Zagred would let Law try the same attack again after failing the first time

Why would Law fail the first time?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Why would Law fail the first time?

You said he will coat his attack with Haki once he realizes Zagred can ignore the powernull from Mes.

And I’m arguing there wouldn’t even be a first time.

 

[Kachon123]

You said he will coat his attack with Haki once he realizes Zagred can ignore the powernull from Mes.

When did I say this

 

[Arkenis]

Is this coating something he'll do off bat? specifically for mes?

 

[Kachon123]

Is this coating something he'll do off bat? specifically for mes?

Yes. I don't think there was ever a moment Post Timeskip where he hasn't used Haki when attacking with his fruit.

Buso is a standard starting tactic for New World fighters anyways.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Are there any other wincon Law has besides that?

 

[Kachon123]

Are there any other wincon Law has besides that?

Law can:

BFR via Shambels teleportation
Incap him via Amputate spatial cuts
Make his soul sleep via Mes

Just to name a few ways.

Would you like me to name some more?

 

[noninho]

Would you like me to name some more?

i unironically would. not that i'm supporting BC or anything, but now that the BC supporters are reading, it'd be very nice

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’m skeptical about the likeliness of these wincons happening tbh.

It’s not like Zagred can’t prevent all of these from happening with his magic.

 

[noninho]

I’m skeptical about the likeliness of these wincons happening tbh.

It’s not like Zagred can’t prevent all of these from happening with his magic.

you'll have to explain more than that my g

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I have.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Law can coat his attacks with Haki, which has layered resistance negation.

And Zagred resists powernull that negates layered powenull Resistance. This can go forever

 

[Arkenis]

Who got the higher layered resistance?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Okay, Zagred doesn’t typically allow anyone to get close to him in character.

Im going to assume you already know Zagred’s ability to speak into reality (doesn’t work directly on the opponent but definitely on their weapons when he feels like).

Thanks to this, striking his body was rare. He would often just spam his magic around his opponents: “Storm of Blades” (self explanatory), “Split open”(usually the ground beneath the feat as a distraction), “Bind” (to trap opponents with black mass), “iron spears” (summoning multiple spears from ground or air to trap opponents by cruxifying them basically), “get back” (moves opponent backwards obviously), “vanish” (whatever he referring to vanishes; like weapons) and so on. The way around his Word Magic was to blitz him before he completes a word/phrase or outrange him cuz his magic needs a little bit of time to reach his opponent far away before he speaks or catch him off guard. The only time he was hit head on was when Asta and Yuno had to go through hordes of attacks to only graze him on the arm. That’s about it.

Also keep in mind that Zagred can summon his life and body eating monsters whenever he feels like. These monsters continue to fill up a lot of space over time. Also Zagred can summon a mouth anywhere on his body so shutting him up doesn’t look like an option.

So are those wanting more explanation on every little thing just going to ignore all what was said here and continue to play victim by acting like their arguments aren’t read?

 

[Epsilon_R]

Who got the higher layered resistance?

I'm having Vietnam flashbacks

 

[Arkenis]

So are those wanting more explanation on every little thing just going to ignore all what was said here and continue to play victim by acting like their arguments aren’t read?

Man drop Zagred's layers I'm tryna see something

 

[Arnoldstone18]

There are easier ways Zagred can win why go through this headache.

I’ll just post this shit on discord so I can be copying and pasting it in situations like these. One sec.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Man drop Zagred's layers I'm tryna see something

Aura power nullification < Mana Skin PN resistance < PN spells (Binding Magic) < Stronger Mana Skin (Elves) < Mana Zone Full Power (MZ users like Mereoleona) < Even Stronger Mana Skin (Elves pouring all their magic into it)… (you get the point) < Forbidden\Devil Magic PN resistance (Ancient Demon, Zagred, etc).

So more than 4 layers. The reason why I say “more than” because within the elves there are those who can resist better than others. Like Elf Luck resisting Binding Magic when lower elves can’t.

Why does Zagred need to resist Power Null? What is the justification for Haki negating Magic like it does for Devil Fruit?

 

[XDragnoir]

Can Shambles even teleport Zagred to outside of the Room's range? Because even Law's largest room seen wouldn't get Zagred far enough that he couldn't get back in a few minutes at worst.

 

[ThanatosX]

After reading the arguments for both of them, I personally think that Law takes this.
First of all, he have a huge range advantage, and considering that, as per SBA, the fight start 4 km away he is more than willing to abuse this advantage by using Amputate to spatially cut him up with ranged slashes and incap him in the process.
He also have an important advantage with Haki, since with that he is able to negate up to Mid-High Regen while Zagred "only" have High-Mid, and since Law uses Haki in every single attack, every attack he will use to cut him up, either spatially or even physically, will render Zagred unable to regenerate.
R-Room Silence is an important factor too, imho. Does Zagred words need to be heard or to spread in the surroundings in order for his magic to work in the first place? Was he ever put in a situation in which his word couldn't physically reach any further than a meter away from him and his magic still worked? Because Law can create a Room directly on the opponent to prevent sound from exiting the area that is contained in that Room, so if Zagred magic is in any way connected to the sound of his word or he doesn't have the feat for his magic to work in such conditions, this would pretty much incap him immediately.
There is also the Mes, which Law can easily use in combination which Shamble by using the latter to quickly get close to him (maybe after cutting him up with ranged Amputates) and then remove his heart, which would result in Zagred instantly getting knocked out as seen with Smoker, and it would be a good way to incap. Zagred resisting Sleep Manipulation doesn't really help him neither, since in this case not only his physical body, but his soul would get knocked out too.
There is also another factor that needs to be taken into consideration imho, which is the size of the mouths Zagred can create. If he is cut into piece of 1 or 2 centimeters, either physically or spatially, and he can't regenerate because of Law's Regeneration Negation, can he create a mouth of only 1 or 2 cm in size to still use his Word Magic? Does he have feats of doing so? Because if not, Law can easily cut him up into small piece, making him unable to regenerate and to use his magic, which would effectively incap him.
I also don't see Zagred hitting Law in general. From what I have seen, he uses his Word Magic to attack physically, and the only really dangerous hax he have is with the trident, but I don't think both of this would work. Law's Kenbun-shoku Haki, aka Precognition, will allow him to predict his moves in advance, and thanks to a far better range and general greater mobility within his Room thanks to Shambles (basically teleportation, which he is more than willing to spam to avoid attacks or to quickly move around in this key), will make him a incredibly hard target for Zagred to hit.
Overall, unless Zagred have ways to instantly win with his Word Magic, I see Law winning most of the times.

 

[XDragnoir]

He also have an important advantage with Haki, since with that he is able to negate up to Mid-High Regen while Zagred "only" have High-Mid, and since Law uses Haki in every single attack, every attack he will use to cut him up, either spatially or even physically, will render Zagred unable to regenerate.

Zagred's regen is natural, Buso can only null non-natural (Marco's).

R-Room Silence is an important factor too, imho. Does Zagred words need to be heard or to spread in the surroundings in order for his magic to work in the first place? Was he ever put in a situation in which his word couldn't physically reach any further than a meter away from him and his magic still worked? Because Law can create a Room directly on the opponent to prevent sound from exiting the area that is contained in that Room, so if Zagred magic is in any way connected to the sound of his word or he doesn't have the feat for his magic to work in such conditions, this would pretty much incap him immediately.

Iirc, he only needs to speak, there is no need for anyone to hear, mainly because his Word Magic doesn't really have a specific and is used to summon things most of the time.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

but his soul would get knocked out too.

Zagred's soul was sealed and he was still conscious

 

[Epsilon_R]

After reading the arguments for both of them, I personally think that Law takes this.
First of all, he have a huge range advantage, and considering that, as per SBA, the fight start 4 km away he is more than willing to abuse this advantage by using Amputate to spatially cut him up with ranged slashes and incap him in the process.

The battle starts at 1km. And it takes physical Stamina to create Larger rooms so he can abuse that. Can as said before, Spatial cuts are not enough in incap Zagred

He also have an important advantage with Haki, since with that he is able to negate up to Mid-High Regen while Zagred "only" have High-Mid, and since Law uses Haki in every single attack, every attack he will use to cut him up, either spatially or even physically, will render Zagred unable to regenerate.

I only negates non natural mid high regen. Law cuts can't do damage to begin with

R-Room Silence is an important factor too, imho.

He wouldn't use that on Zagred right off the bat. Which lets Zagred enough time to create stuffs, and once they are created, he can manipulate them at will without the need to speak.

There is also the Mes, which Law can easily use in combination which Shamble by using the latter to quickly get close to him (maybe after cutting him up with ranged Amputates) and then remove his heart, which would result in Zagred instantly getting knocked out as seen with Smoker, and it would be a good way to incap.

Zagred can survive that, we've been over this already. And all of this is assuming Zagred stands there doing nothing the whole time.

There is also another factor that needs to be taken into consideration imho, which is the size of the mouths Zagred can create. If he is cut into piece of 1 or 2 centimeters, either physically or spatially, and he can't regenerate because of Law's Regeneration Negation, can he create a mouth of only 1 or 2 cm in size to still use his Word Magic? Does he have feats of doing so? Because if not, Law can easily cut him up into small piece, making him unable to regenerate and to use his magic, which would effectively incap him.

Law cannot cut his heart to prevent Zagred from healing in the first place. The heart has Invulnerability.

I also don't see Zagred hitting Law in general. From what I have seen, he uses his Word Magic to attack physically, and the only really dangerous hax he have is with the trident, but I don't think both of this would work. Law's Kenbun-shoku Haki, aka Precognition, will allow him to predict his moves in advance, and thanks to a far better range and general greater mobility within his Room thanks to Shambles (basically teleportation, which he is more than willing to spam to avoid attacks or to quickly move around in this key), will make him a incredibly hard target for Zagred to hit.

And Zagred can do the same teleportation via reality warping. And Law's Room would eventually be filled with Zagred's Sludge, making it easier for him to attack beyond his range

Overall, unless Zagred have ways to instantly win with his Word Magic, I see Law winning most of the times.

The AP gap should already be enough to critically damage Law if not almost one shot him. Add that with the many ways he has to hurt him (Trident, Sludge and RW) while Law has no way to kill Zagred and even incapacitating is far less likely to happen than Zagred just outlasting his Stamina or just nailing him once

 

[Kachon123]

Zagred's soul was sealed and he was still conscious

This doesn't mea anything. Sealing ≠ Sleep Manipulation.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

This doesn't mea anything. Sealing ≠ Sleep Manipulation.

He also resist sleep manipulation

If he can "resist" still having mental activity while sealed and also not being force to be sleep, his soul, which is the same as his devil body, can resist sleep

Also, knocking out a invulnerable heart, I can´t see how you do that with "sleep"

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Voting Zagred FRA.

 

[Kachon123]

The battle starts at 1km

No it doesn't.

And it takes physical Stamina to create Larger rooms so he can abuse that

No it doesn't. (easily created a room that was able to cover the entirety of Onigashima, which is over 57 kilometers wide)

It only negates non natural mid high regen

No it doesn't. It negates regeneration that is boosted from normal regeneration, which Zagred's would fall under.

Zagred can survive that, we've been over this already. And all of this is assuming Zagred stands there doing nothing the whole time.

Zagred's soul would fall asleep. There is no proof that his resistance to sleep manipulation covers his soul as well.

 

[Kachon123]

He also resist sleep manipulation

There is no proof that his resistance to sleep manipulation covers his soul as well.

If he can "resist" still having mental activity while sealed and also not being force to be sleep, his soul, which is the same as his devil body, can resist sleep

That's not how it works.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Zagred's soul would fall asleep. There is no proof that his resistance to sleep manipulation covers his soul as well.

He as a soul still had his powers (half of his powers were done while he was a soul 500 years before the events of the elf arc)

So he as a soul has sleep resistance

And he as a soul could also possess Law Edit: Ignore this if Law willpower is enough to counter this, I did not think about this one I am a busy to argue extensively, I only appear when I finish all my work

 

[Kachon123]

He as a soul still had his powers (half of his powers were done while he was a soul 500 years before the events of the elf arc)

So he as a soul has sleep resistance

And he as a soul could also possess Law

Without pointing out some of the bs you said,

Mana Skin is what resists sleep manipulation according to Zagred's profile. He needs to have it active to resist the sleep. If he gets hit and his soul falls asleep, that's a win for Law via Incap due to Zagred not being able to activate it.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

. He needs to have it active to resist the sleep

Everyone who have learned Mana skin has it active all the time in combat

"It is a basic technique that most Magic Knights have used unconsciously at one point or another. Proper training allows a mage to use it consciously and to greater effect. "

Like Law using Haki on all of his attacks, every mage who knows Mana Skin is gonna use it all the time unless their stamina can´t keep up

 

[Kachon123]

Like Law using Haki on all of his attacks, every mage who knows Mana Skin is gonna use it all the time unless their stamina can´t keep up

I know this. I'm referring to him using it on his soul. You said that as a soul, he can still use his abilities. I find it hard to believe that whenever he uses his powers, he's shooting them from his soul.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Does Zagred words need to be heard or to spread in the surroundings in order for his magic to work in the first place?

Was he ever put in a situation in which his word couldn't physically reach any further than a meter away from him and his magic still worked?

so if Zagred magic is in any way connected to the sound of his word or he doesn't have the feat for his magic to work in such conditions, this would pretty much incap him immediately.

No his words don’t need to be heard. Otherwise everyone would’ve discovered his identity long before his plan was complete.

Why did you ask so many questions about the character and still decide to vote given the lack of knowledge on Zagred.

Also all of what you typed in favor of Law assumes Law has knowledge on Zagred or the fact that Zagred is just going to stand there and do nothing. Debates that are in this manner are my pet peeve.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Till now, nobody has told me how Law is going to do all the things you guys said he will do while simultaneously getting attacked by Zagred’s monsters and summons. While also being weary of Zagred simply deleting his attacks with RW if he SOMEHOW comes close to him or getting killed by Zagred’s matter hax spear.

All I see is Law can do this, and that and this and that and this and that. Can he still do them if Zagred spams moves? Nobody answered.

I personally don’t care about Mes because it’s a very unlikely wincon if at all it works on Zagred’s soul. Cuz Zagred can still use magic in soul form so I don’t see why mana skin couldn’t be used. I honestly just don’t see Law winning unless Zagred doesn’t do anything.

 

[Kachon123]

while simultaneously getting attacked by Zagred’s monsters and summons.

Law can just stop their movement with Takt, or just use Kenbun to avoid them. They aren't an issue at all.

While also being weary of Zagred simply deleting his attacks

With what?

getting killed by Zagred’s matter hax spear.

How does it work?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Law can just stop their movement with Takt, or just use Kenbun to avoid them. They aren't an issue at all.

Show me Law dodging danmaku with Kenbun. Dodging a storm of blades requires not just precog but skill. You can know where shit is coming from but wouldn’t know what to do against it.

With what?

“Vanish” I’ve said this before.

How does it work?

Dura neg. One hit breaks down matter to deal damage. Zagred used it to break off Lumiere’s arm.

 

[Kachon123]

Show me Law dodging danmaku with Kenbun. Dodging a storm of blades requires not just precog but skill. You can know where shit is coming from but wouldn’t know what to do against it.

Here. Law's Kenbun also scales to the likes of Beginning of Timeskip Luffy and should scale above Pre-Timeskip Zoro's senses.

“Vanish” I’ve said this before.

Is there proof that it would work on Law's spatial abilities such as Kroom and Amputate?

Dura neg. One hit breaks down matter to deal damage. Zagred used it to break off Lumiere’s arm.

Law resists deconstruction via Haki.