Eden_Warlock99
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Kamehamehas being like way more powerful than normal attacks is like an accepted thing
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Cell is getting nerfed. (Dragon Ball)
- Thread starter Nullflowerblush
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The whole point is that this UES argument everyone's using is flawed.
They use the same energy to attack, defend, and charge attacks.
They don't use the same AMOUNT of energy.
It's like scaling a toaster to a generator cause they both use electricity
They use the same energy to attack, defend, and charge attacks.
They don't use the same AMOUNT of energy.
It's like scaling a toaster to a generator cause they both use electricity
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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The Final flash also didn't explode. Seems like it can still do damage. Implying that Vegeta only took a part of the blast when he should have died outright is ridiculous.
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I'm just saying he didn't take all of it. He did a lot better against it than other characters, but this isn't a thread to downgrade Vegeta anyway.
Serlock_Holmes
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If they didn't then they would only throw dumb big blasts at each other. We have seen however that strikes still work. And they can even take attacks stronger than their charged ones like Frieza did two times and
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They don't always throw big dumb blasts at each other because dodging is a concept.
Piccolo needed Goku to occupy Raditz to charge his attack.
Goku needed Piccolo to occuy Frieza to charge his attack.
Etc, etc.
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I don't think you get it
The UES law is flawed.
If they scale via feats, they scale via feats.
The people in the OP DON'T SCALE VIA FEATS, so they won't scale.
Stop bringing up unrelated incidents. It doesn't support the case
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Ah I see, go ahead. Go up to 100% then, with a singular arm being 50%. Or just ditch this idiotic argument and do us both a favor, cause i'm pretty sure you know well that no one is gonna even try to back it up here
Guacamolefletcher
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Bruh, if they can strike people who tank chi blasts and deal damage, that's a striking strength/ physical feat
Eden_Warlock99
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Guacamolefletcher
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he's basically firing it at point-blank range, anyways. It's not like it's a massive difference
Isn't this like complete headcanon tho? That's HxH logic
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Please we already do this kind of thing on our profiles, like for Vegeta:
Attack Potency: Planet level (Much stronger than Nappa and superior to Goku with Kaio-ken x2. Stated that he was going to turn the Earth to ashes), higher with Galick Gun (Matched Goku's Kaio-ken x3 Kamehameha until he used Kaio-ken x4)
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That’s energy logic
If you charge your entire body with energy, then you focus all that split up energy into one spot, the energy of that focused in one spot will be superior to the energy you split up
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Right, and every time someone fires off a Kamehameha they get put on a stretcher and wheeled out since they've used 100% of their Ki
Guacamolefletcher
Username Only- 2,232
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I think you might be thinking too hard, man. I get what you're tryna say, that when they're not using energy to amp their physicals or for other shit
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Ki Multiplying
Most, if not all, cases where an attack would scale above physical stats either relates to using external energy (Spirit Bomb, Sword of Hope) or consuming life force (Tri-Beam, Final Explosion, Granolah's blast against Gas towards the end of the saga) which goes past safe Ki reserves and can kill the user. We've already brought up in the 22nd Budokai revision that Goku's Super Kamehameha multiplies power but he scales to it physically because Piccolo can tank it and harm Goku with physical strikes despite having a similar power level. That's the standard we should follow for the vast majority of techniques.
Power Scaling
For Cell's Solar Kamehameha, I don't quite understand why Vegeta and Piccolo are even mentioned when last I recall they were fodder in this fight. Not to mention Gohan was stated to only be at half power and defeated Cell with his own Super Kamehameha by going past his initial limits.
My take
The main points here are that techniques can multiply Ki and that Cell stated he accumulated power to destroy the Solar System but I have no reason to think Cell's Solar Kamehameha is any different from a Super Kamehameha (especially given it was overpowered by a Super Kamehameha) and Cell didn't charge the Kamehameha that much longer than most characters usually do from what I tell.
Okay, so multiplying Ki? If it's just a Super Kamehameha then we already know physical stats scale to it to an extent. Piccolo in the 23rd Budokai could take Goku's Super Kamehameha yet was harmed by Goku's strikes. Same thing on Namek, X20 Super Kamehameha is endured by 50% Freeza and Goku could harm Freeza. So clearly Super Kamehameha doesn't multiply power that dramatically.
What about the part where Cell 'accumulated' enough power? Well, it seems the main source for that is riddled with grammatical errors and doesn't make sense in some parts. I don't speak Spanish so I would like it if someone who does could take another look at it and clarify what exactly is being translated as 'accumulated' from the guidebook. In the Viz translation of the chapter he uses it he just says "I have enough Chi to blow away the entire Solar System!" Which can simply refer to his Super Perfect power.
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Conclusion
Despite all of that do I disagree with a downgrade? Not exactly. Ki techniques DO multiply your power. And some techniques multiply your power exponentially (via cutting life force or external energy being used). Virtually every character in DB can be 'higher' or even 'far higher' with certain techniques. What I just wonder is how big this downgrade should actually be when the only known multiplier for Super Kamehameha is around 2.3x power level and we know characters can endure it with similar base power level to the user.
For added clarification, Toriyama explains how Ki works and it's stated that 'Courage' (Yuki) is an important component to it, as well as that people can give you power or energy by 'cheering you on'. Meaning Gohan was gaining power by Goku's encouragement. Hence overpowering Cell despite being at half power and everyone (but Goku) believing he was at his limits.
Gohan started that clash as much weaker than Cell and came out of it far stronger. By gaining confidence in his strength via Goku's encouragement.
Most, if not all, cases where an attack would scale above physical stats either relates to using external energy (Spirit Bomb, Sword of Hope) or consuming life force (Tri-Beam, Final Explosion, Granolah's blast against Gas towards the end of the saga) which goes past safe Ki reserves and can kill the user. We've already brought up in the 22nd Budokai revision that Goku's Super Kamehameha multiplies power but he scales to it physically because Piccolo can tank it and harm Goku with physical strikes despite having a similar power level. That's the standard we should follow for the vast majority of techniques.
Power Scaling
For Cell's Solar Kamehameha, I don't quite understand why Vegeta and Piccolo are even mentioned when last I recall they were fodder in this fight. Not to mention Gohan was stated to only be at half power and defeated Cell with his own Super Kamehameha by going past his initial limits.
My take
The main points here are that techniques can multiply Ki and that Cell stated he accumulated power to destroy the Solar System but I have no reason to think Cell's Solar Kamehameha is any different from a Super Kamehameha (especially given it was overpowered by a Super Kamehameha) and Cell didn't charge the Kamehameha that much longer than most characters usually do from what I tell.
Okay, so multiplying Ki? If it's just a Super Kamehameha then we already know physical stats scale to it to an extent. Piccolo in the 23rd Budokai could take Goku's Super Kamehameha yet was harmed by Goku's strikes. Same thing on Namek, X20 Super Kamehameha is endured by 50% Freeza and Goku could harm Freeza. So clearly Super Kamehameha doesn't multiply power that dramatically.
What about the part where Cell 'accumulated' enough power? Well, it seems the main source for that is riddled with grammatical errors and doesn't make sense in some parts. I don't speak Spanish so I would like it if someone who does could take another look at it and clarify what exactly is being translated as 'accumulated' from the guidebook. In the Viz translation of the chapter he uses it he just says "I have enough Chi to blow away the entire Solar System!" Which can simply refer to his Super Perfect power.
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Conclusion
Despite all of that do I disagree with a downgrade? Not exactly. Ki techniques DO multiply your power. And some techniques multiply your power exponentially (via cutting life force or external energy being used). Virtually every character in DB can be 'higher' or even 'far higher' with certain techniques. What I just wonder is how big this downgrade should actually be when the only known multiplier for Super Kamehameha is around 2.3x power level and we know characters can endure it with similar base power level to the user.
Piccolo didn't believe Gohan could do it with how low his Ki was (halved) but Goku encouraged Gohan to tap into his true power, telling him he 'hadn't used it all yet' and that he was 'afraid to destroy the Earth' and it's not like Vegeta was the only reason Gohan won, Piccolo was shocked Gohan managed to win and pretty clearly knew Vegeta helped out. So in other words, Gohan was at half power and likely would have died to the Solar Kamehameha but Goku's encouragement let him unleash more power that he hadn't shown before out of fear. More than Piccolo or anyone else believed he had. Or even Gohan himself since he said he was 'giving it all he had' when Goku was telling him to go further.
For added clarification, Toriyama explains how Ki works and it's stated that 'Courage' (Yuki) is an important component to it, as well as that people can give you power or energy by 'cheering you on'. Meaning Gohan was gaining power by Goku's encouragement. Hence overpowering Cell despite being at half power and everyone (but Goku) believing he was at his limits.
Gohan started that clash as much weaker than Cell and came out of it far stronger. By gaining confidence in his strength via Goku's encouragement.
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Based on what Null said earlier, it'd just be 10x downgrade for the characters involved.
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Not literally a hundred percent I’m saying they’re using a large amount of the ki in their body to attack
I ain’t say that
I said they use the same type of energy
But they don’t use the same amount
Simple
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Yep, people tend to forget how much Gohan's power is affected by his emotions. He had just come out of thinking he had doomed the earth to destruction, then crying and mourning the death of his father, then having his arm ****** up while all of the people around him thought that they were done for.
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Okay, so are we going to claim that Super Kamehameha can reach up to 10x AP then? Because it is categorised as a Super Kamehameha. That would apply to any Super Kamehameha user and perhaps any other attack equal or superior to Super Kamehameha (Nova Strike, Final Flash, Gamma Burst Flash for example)
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Ah so if it's not a literal 100% or beyond their ki limits, then their physicals would be able to scale right? What's stopping them from using that same ammount ki into a punch?
Your argument is just flawed, man.
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Ughhhhhhhh
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What are you talking about.
If I use the ki in my hand, shoulder, and arm to blast somebody, would that scale to the average ki I put in my hand?
What is so hard to understand. They don’t use the same amount of ki naturally.
They CAN, but they don’t
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,611
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Pretty sure a multiplier actually has to be stated somewhere to be used
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We can't reason out multipliers like that for other pages.
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Bro
Their limbs don't have individual ki generators in them, this is just your headcanon. Either present a source or just stop saying this
They choose how much strength to put into each of their attacks
If you think every single punch thrown in the series by the respective character is the same in strength, you're just plain wrong
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This makes no real sense to me but I'm not going to argue it.
Nullflowerblush
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- #188
The word "acumuló" is being translated into "accumulated".
And Herms says "I’ve already gathered enough ki...".
Strength Checker • Kanzenshuu
www.kanzenshuu.com
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Who tf said they have ki generators??? You’re not reading.
They charge their entire body with energy right?
They use energy from their entire body right?
Why would the energy they take from the vast majority of their body and focus in 1 spot be the same amount of energy they use in individual spots?
CAN they put their full energy in 1 spot? Yes. See Goku vs King Piccolo.
Do they always? No
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Alright, that's fair then. that would confirm Cell was gathering tons of Ki via the Super Kamehameha.The word "acumuló" is being translated into "accumulated".
And Herms says "I’ve already gathered enough ki...".
Strength Checker • Kanzenshuu
Nullflowerblush
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- #191
Blue Goku is eclipsed by Fusion Zamasu. Requires Perfected Blue, which is 10x stronger, to fight equally with Zamasu. Can damage Fusion Zamasu with a Kamehameha in Blue.
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your argument boils down to 'can they punch at their hardest if they want to? Yes. Do they always? No. Guess their physicals don't scale to their hardest punch, then!'
It's ridiculous, this self limiting logic isn't applied in any verse, and shouldn't be
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"Can they put the ki they use for their strongest attacks in one spot? Yes"
"Do they always? No"
When Goku said he's putting his all into the punch he used against King Piccolo that speared through him, was that a regular punch now?
We're talking about energy. A kamehameha is all the energy in the body focused into one spot. We wouldn't scale a hand to the energy of an attack that's contributed by the hand, foot, knee, shoulder, elbow, stomach, chest, head, and more.
You need to check out more verses then
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can you at least stick to one lmao
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okay, here's one.
They use more energy in the kamehameha than they use to punch and kick.
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Usually.
But they can also choose to use more or equal energy in their punches and kicks than Kamehamehas, therefore their physicals scale.
Eden_Warlock99
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Don't they one-shot lads comparable to em when they do that tho?
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That's incredibly misleading on the profiles if we say that their Striking Strength is always equal to their most powerful Chi blasts when the fighters almost never do that.
Same for the characters durability. If the characters durability was that high then evenly matched characters would never hurt each other.
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Even if they don't always do it, as long as they can do it with their physicals then it must be on their profiles.
Unless you want to specify a character is 'Tier X, Y when punching really hard, Y with named technique' which would just be ridiculous.
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