Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[FantaRin_The_First]

Nice.

And would say the latter works better since, well... as you stated, Mugino almost died from it, so disqualifies it as a resistance by default, methinks. Edit: or perhaps, it is just a minor resistance to electricity, but idk for sure.

... Speaking of ITEM spinoff, it is now getting a manga adaption... which makes me dumbfounded as to why since we already have a LN about it, but more toaru stuff is fine, I suppose.

 

[XDragnoir]

It's a minor resistance, normal people would probably be dead in that situation.

Also, I saw no mention of her redirecting electricity in that particular case so I doubt that would be a good explanation.

 

[Alsotime]

Speaking of ITEM spinoff, it is now getting a manga adaption

I think the manga was announced like just a bit before the light novel came out to, even more bizarre

 

[DontTalkDT]

Made an item spin-off revision thread

https://vsbattles.com/threads/toaru-anbu-no-item-revisions.153337/

and a calc that puts Mitori up to 8-B for at least one technique

Mitori Metal Drop calc

vsbattles.fandom.com

That aside, my tree breaking calc got approved, so we can now talk about where characters should get put with the 8-B thing gone.
Wanted to discuss it for a bit here before I make a big CRT on it.
So, Kuroko downscales from Arei, as depicted in past threads. So I guess she's lower-end wall level.
Tsurigane scales to Kuroko.
Arei can be scaled to Ritoku.
Where does the scaling continue from there? Do we have a good reason to scale Touma?

 

[XDragnoir]

That aside, my tree breaking calc got approved, so we can now talk about where characters should get put with the 8-B thing gone.
Wanted to discuss it for a bit here before I make a big CRT on it.
So, Kuroko downscales from Arei, as depicted in past threads. So I guess she's lower-end wall level.
Tsurigane scales to Kuroko.
Arei can be scaled to Ritoku.
Where does the scaling continue from there? Do we have a good reason to scale Touma?

Fanta had already made a calc for this feat and also got it approved, so a CGM thread would be needed to discuss which calc should be used.

Other than that, there was also a 9B+ and two 8C durability feats in one CRT and an other CRT had yet another 9A Feat.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Fanta had already made a calc for this feat and also got it approved, so a CGM thread would be needed to discuss which calc should be used.

Didn't know that existed. I guess I can do a thread on that.

Other than that, there was also a 9B+ and two 8C durability feats in one CRT and an other CRT had yet another 9A Feat.

The problem with that 9-A feat is that it scales to nobody. Tobio is scaling wise completely isolated from everyone else, since she only fought her sister and Accelerator. And her sister only fought her. Tobio also fought Anti-Skill guys, but she curb-stomped them, so they don't scale to her in any capacity either. (I also maintain that she was using her ability for that, but it doesn't really matter)
So that scaling chain gets us nowhere.

Can you link the other feats?

 

[XDragnoir]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/to-aru-revision-a-certain-magical-revision-new-testament.146399/

The 3 are in this thread at the bottom of the feats list.

 

[DontTalkDT]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/to-aru-revision-a-certain-magical-revision-new-testament.146399/

The 3 are in this thread at the bottom of the feats list.

Let's see through all of those.

The Junko one obviously scales just to Junko. Or at least I'm not sure who else would scale to a peak strength feat of hers.

Accelerator Manga Part 8 feats has the problem again that the scaling chain just goes nowhere. (Same for other Accel Manga feats)

Touma Kamijou Feats Part 3 has the issue that the calculation assumes marble, based on the novel, but the anime depicts the floor as wood, which would need much less energy to fragment. So it doesn't pass the tertiary canon criteria. I checked whether the manga version is better (Chapter 56), but not really. (Although in the manga the hole is smaller at that)

I'm not sure if Seike's feat would scale to anyone but him. Also I'm also fairly sure that calc has issues, as I can't imagine that the thickness of the sheet of (what is maybe) steel is not a factor in what energy value this gives. Denting 5mm steel plates should obviously take less effort than denting 5cm thick steel plates, no? If that calc method is widely used I might need to make a thread on that. (Edit: Looking at the panels in Chapter 17 after the feat, I'm also fairly sure the dent isn't as deep as the calc assumes)

Then there's the Yumiya calc, which is obviously impressive. (Although, I would take a smaller window size, as that window is clearly smaller than the rest) That said, I don't buy using that feat for durability scaling. Like, that she survived that with just her jaw blown off makes no sense from a durability standpoint and just seems like Kamachi not wanting to kill characters again. One could also argue that an unknown amount of AC medical super tech was involved, which could somewhat explain it. (Although, really, if he jaw is exploded off then her brain should be mush)

 

[XDragnoir]

Then there's the Yumiya calc, which is obviously impressive. (Although, I would take a smaller window size, as that window is clearly smaller than the rest) That said, I don't buy using that feat for durability scaling. Like, that she survived that with just her jaw blown off makes no sense from a durability standpoint and just seems like Kamachi not wanting to kill characters again. One could also argue that an unknown amount of AC medical super tech was involved, which could somewhat explain it. (Although, really, if he jaw is exploded off then her brain should be mush)

IMO, that feat is better used for downscaling than Yumiya (or anyone else) directly scaling to it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Meh, don't really like High 8-C for that either. It just makes no sense that an explosion in the mouth would obliterate the jaw, but keep her upper head intact, even if she had the durability. And in general "the attack blew off large body parts, but they didn't turn to mush and somehow survied off-screen via super medicine" isn't my favourite kind of durability reasoning.
One could do "At most 8-B", I guess. Although pushing that through the whole scaling chain is kinda annoying.
Personally, I would just keep it in mind as supportive evidence towards other feats in this realm that scale to those characters, if we get such things.

 

[XDragnoir]

Meh, don't really like High 8-C for that either. It just makes no sense that an explosion in the mouth would obliterate the jaw, but keep her upper head intact, even if she had the durability. And in general "the attack blew off large body parts, but they didn't turn to mush and somehow survied off-screen via super medicine" isn't my favourite kind of durability reasoning.
One could do "At most 8-B", I guess. Although pushing that through the whole scaling chain is kinda annoying.
Personally, I would just keep it in mind as supportive evidence towards other feats in this realm that scale to those characters, if we get such things.

Yeah, I don't like "at most" being used most of the time, so...

There were explosions outside of her mouth too, right? Can't we just scale her to the sum of the bombs that were outside of her mouth as those didn't damage her? From what I saw in the calc there was already an specific value for how strong each of the 7 bombs were, 5 of them didn't damage her "in the slightest" (when compared to the other 2) and the two that did were literally inside of her.

Or like, scale her to the value of a single bomb, tho this one doesn't make as much sense as scaling to the 5 she tanked, but it's still a value we can use if need be, I guess.

 

[Churronzon]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/toaru-removing-one-of-coronzons-high-1-c-ap-justifications.153497/

 

[Aseka]

Why is Accelerator only get Extraordinary Genius rating despite he can fight tier 1 characters with his ability? Shouldn't he get Supergenius rating?

 

[Doggo]

Why is Accelerator only get Extraordinary Genius rating despite he can fight tier 1 characters with his ability? Shouldn't he get Supergenius rating?

...that's not enough for supergenius lol

In fact I'm not a fan of Aleister being a supergenius

 

[Ped2018]

Doggo

 

[Doggo]

Doggo

yeah?

 

[Aseka]

In fact I'm not a fan of Aleister being a supergenius

Why? Even though he created AAA for killing Magic Gods.

 

[XDragnoir]

In fact I'm not a fan of Aleister being a supergenius

Didn't Aleister say something about having all technologies from AC stored in his mind? That's more than enough for Supergenius given AC is 30 years (way more than 30, actually) ahead of us in technology.

 

[Doggo]

Didn't Aleister say something about having all technologies from AC stored in his mind? That's more than enough for Supergenius given AC is 30 years (way more than 30, actually) ahead of us in technology.

Characters like batman and Iron man only have extraordinary genius at best and they are way smarter than Aleister.

Supergenius is like creating reality warping technology on at least a universal scale. Think of someone like the Doctor or Anti spiral

Alot of Aleister's crazy hax comes from magic not tech, so it's hard to place him there.

Why is Accelerator only get Extraordinary Genius rating despite he can fight tier 1 characters with his ability? Shouldn't he get Supergenius rating?

Said tier 1 characters were nerfed to his level. lol

 

[Aseka]

Said tier 1 characters were nerfed to his level. lol

Coronzon

Characters like batman and Iron man only have extraordinary genius at best and they are way smarter than Aleister.

Aleister can calculate coordinate of something that doesn't exist, non-existent numbers.

 

[XDragnoir]

Coronzon

Coronzon wasn't tier 1 either... and how exactly does fighting help someone's intelligence stat?

Characters like batman and Iron man only have extraordinary genius at best and they are way smarter than Aleister.

Supergenius is like creating reality warping technology on at least a universal scale. Think of someone like the Doctor or Anti spiral

Alot of Aleister's crazy hax comes from magic not tech, so it's hard to place him there.

I agree but technically, Aleister knows how to create espers, who are reality warping humans, but overall he doesn't have much for a super genius, yeah.

Also, saying Batman and Iron Man are way smarter than Aleister is crazy, Bruce and Tony specialize in different fields from one another and Aleister in yet another field, the wiki doesn't exactly measure magical knowledge for Intelligence, but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid type of "smartness"... and even then I doubt Batman has better technology than Academy City and Aleister in 90% of his incarnations.

 

[XDragnoir]

Didn't Aleister say something about having all technologies from AC stored in his mind

Found ot GT4 Epilogue:

“Good grief.” Everyone was shocked to see what was obviously a golden retriever answer the mysterious woman. “Did you choose to make your deadly toy out of the universally-disliked fly as a tribute to the Decomposer and the Carrier?”

“Those twins did not have exclusive rights to such things. Director Yakumi Hisako used bugs too, if you recall.”

The golden retriever sighed and cut a new cigar.

You could maybe accept being killed by a venomous bug, like a wasp, spider, or scorpion, but having countless maggots devouring all of the soft tissue below your skin had to be a horrific way to go. It was an obvious case of using empathy in a more detached fashion.

“He said he doesn’t want any of it anymore,” casually replied the woman, twirling the small gas-powered water gun. She winked and tapped her temple with her other hand. “So I’ll be taking all that ‘dark side’ technology for myself. That means all the technology needed for Five Overs, military clones, androids, nanodevices, artificial ghosts, artificial muscle enhancement, AIM diffusion fields, and even making dogs speak. But most importantly, that includes esper development. I don’t even need the Bank. I have all the official and unofficial Academy City tech stored right in here. The only thing not in the palm of my hand would be that right hand.”

 

[Aseka]

and how exactly does fighting help someone's intelligence stat?

Like Doggo said, but actually Accel is different tho. He didn't use tech to fight tier 1 characters.

 

[Churronzon]

Niang-Niang knew Coronzon's secret handshake and thus her intelligence clears all.

“The path to the heliport must be the elevator in the central storeroom, but that alone is
not enough. The doors and corridors leading to all of the other rooms act as a stereotypical
password. But it is more than just the order in which you open and close the doors. How
you hold the knobs must require the secret handshakes often used in magic cabals.”

This group had no way of knowing this, but Hamazura Shiage had been entirely oblivious
to just how hidden away a space Coronzon had led him.

You would never find the path to the heliport by opening all of the doors in the ship and
searching every nook and cranny of every cabin. It was doubtful you would even see that
giant elevator there. If you failed the authorization process and were rejected, you might
just find a thick storeroom wall instead.

“I am Reading Thoth 78, a tarot deck created by you, my administrator. I would be willing
to brute force the answer.” Black Cat Witch Mina Mathers was still holding baby Lilith.
“But if it is true that Coronzon created her own tarot and incorporated it into her fighting
force, there is a good chance she will obstruct any attempt made with this method. Would
you like to rely on a different method, such as geomancy?”

“No.” Aleister grinned. “I would actually appreciate it if she goes out of her way to obstruct
our methods. Make it real flashy and make a note of what areas get the strongest reaction.
Those are the places she least wants us to find. Connect those points and we will have the
correct path to take. And there are only so many secret handshakes since they are limited
by the five-fingered structure of the human hand. Once we have a decent hint, this should
not be too difficult.”

With Niang-Niang, it was hard to tell whether she was joking or not.

...And she was apparently losing on purpose.

[...]

The sink was not the only part of the kitchen that had been destroyed.

The industrial refrigerators had been knocked over, the countertops broken in two, and
the large door to the central storeroom pierced by several metal fragments.

And to those with the proper knowledge, all of the damage formed braille-like signs
indicating elemental symbols.

It provided the information on the proper secret handshakes to use on the doorknobs.

Aleister had no words.

But these signs of destruction were undoubtedly a divine oracle, just like the cracks on a
tortoise shell heated over a flame.

“...Why are you helping us?”

“Don’t ask me. I’m not interested in good or evil. I just want to have fun fighting. You gave
me what I wanted by challenging me head on instead of running around trying to be tricky.
You didn’t bother holding back even as that wound in your gut tore open. Do I really look
rude enough to run off without paying the bill when I’m served what I ordered?”

There was no need to go along with this nonsense any longer.

Niang-Niang had incredible power, but she only ever used it for her own purposes.

Aleister could only call it sad. Hers was a satisfied solitude very different from Aleister
Crowley who had been libeled by the third-rate papers and criticized by the public who
did not bother questioning what they read. But the silver girl felt no envy. This was like
seeing a pathetic old man who could not tell the difference between having money and
only having money.

Reminds me I have to add like two or three more Coronzon weaknesses eventually.

 

[Aseka]

Have any of you read GT 8?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I just rewatched the beach episode of the anime... man that room has better reality warping than the Beginning Child... Change of temperature, weather, creating various landscapes that look and feel real, creating an ocean, driving a boat through it suggesting that the room was made bigger from the inside, actual fish in the ocean indicating the creation of life, making the prepared actual food appear from nowhere at the desired time...
Wait... does that make the beach episode room a FIVE_Over Modelcase_"BEGINNING_CHILD"?!

 

[XDragnoir]

Have any of you read GT 8?

I waiting for Js to finish translating it.

I don't like Touma's route of helping Anna that started in GT7 so not my favorite Vol. so far, but without a doubt not a bad Vol. either.

 

[Aseka]

I just rewatched the beach episode of the anime... man that room has better reality warping than the Beginning Child... Change of temperature, weather, creating various landscapes that look and feel real, creating an ocean, driving a boat through it suggesting that the room was made bigger from the inside, actual fish in the ocean indicating the creation of life, making the prepared actual food appear from nowhere at the desired time...
Wait... does that make the beach episode room a FIVE_Over Modelcase_"BEGINNING_CHILD"?!

Which episode?

 

[Aseka]

I don't like Touma's route of helping Anna that started in GT7 so not my favorite Vol. so far, but without a doubt not a bad Vol. either.

Sure, I don't like it either.

Mind if I put some spoiler here?

 

[XDragnoir]

Sure, I don't like it either.

Mind if I put some spoiler here?

From the end of chapter 3 onwards? Well, no problem IMO, just put them under the spoiler tag, but I won't read them anyway (I have not even seen the illustrations yet, I am trying to read it spoiler free for once).

 

[XDragnoir]

Btw, what do y'all think should be the stats of the Transcends from what we have seen so far?

As we discussed before they are really strange when compared to everyone else (they have 5B scaling, but over all they seem barely saint level in stats)

 

[Aseka]

As we discussed before they are really strange when compared to everyone else (they have 5B scaling, but over all they seem barely saint level in stats)

Mut Thebes can withstand Aleister attack while he borrowing 333 Dispersion name, Coronzon.

 

[Alsotime]

I know it’s more so based off of skepticism, but I genuinely don’t see how a standard saint like kanzaki could beat a transcendent when we take all the things they can do, and all the things they’ve been stated to be able to do at face value

 

[Piamma]

Mut Thebes can withstand Aleister attack while he borrowing 333 Dispersion name, Coronzon.

Btw, what do y'all think should be the stats of the Transcends from what we have seen so far?

As we discussed before they are really strange when compared to everyone else (they have 5B scaling, but over all they seem barely saint level in stats)

Gt7's Transcends's Risk 4 describes that they can cutting a one universe, compressing a one universe.
but gt8's Mut Risk4 didn't give me that description.

Mut's abilities are similar to Kamisato's.
She can absorb weapons through her shadow and use them as her own power.

It's a clear overstatement that they can win against Mgs.
But that doesn't mean they're such a weak group that they can only lose to Saints.

 

[XDragnoir]

I know it’s more so based off of skepticism, but I genuinely don’t see how a standard saint like kanzaki could beat a transcendent when we take all the things they can do, and all the things they’ve been stated to be able to do at face value

It's not that Saints can beat Transcendents, I was only talking about stats (AP, Dura, speed) which the TDs seem below the Saints most of the time (I don't remember them going supersonic at any moment, for example, but it's been a long time since GT7)

 

[Aseka]

Aleister's Archetype Controller was qualified as Conceptual Manipulation, but which type that concept fall into? Is it type 3?

 

[Piamma]

btw where did the claim that higher Aeons ignore everything in the lower Aeons come from?

Curtana is the power of Osiris as a Christ.
And Aiwass has been mentioned countless times as living in the time of Horus.

However, Curtana is said to be able to kill Aiwass, who hides in the purest phase of physics, if she can hit it right.
If Aeons are absolute, then the normal outcome is that Aiwass should be unharmed, even if you hit it with Curtana.

At this point, the absolute law of Aeons had a counterexample.

 

[Aseka]

btw where did the claim that higher Aeons ignore everything in the lower Aeons come from?

Aiwass' statement.

 

[GunTish]

Aeons have only ever mattered to Aiwass and Coronzon from what I remember. They never said it applies to everyone.

 

[Piamma]

Aiwass' statement.

That's because just black wing is weak.

There's no reason it should apply to all Aeons.
I already gave a counterexample.