Possible Downgrade for LN Rimuru CM type 2.

[DeusExMachine001]

Where is "regeneration" that Elde has asked?

Where is the " fighting as a Abstract " part

By the way here

Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction.

This is from AE page this one goes for either AE1 , AE2

 

[ImmortalDread]

Where is the " fighting as a Abstract " part

Unrelated to the topic when Elde was asking

Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction.

This is from AE page this one goes for either AE1 , AE2

No it does not. In fact this is a general introduction to abstract existence. So you proved my point. Thanks

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This thread has become so complicated that it seems that it will not reach a conclusion.

Probably, a new thread should be created in which all the statements, arguments and scans are combined.

You , i and Celestial Pegasus agreed with limited abstract existence. I believe we can just conclude with that. It's just small change. I will ask ant regarding this wait.

 

[DeusExMachine001]

Unrelated to the topic when Elde was asking

No it does not. In fact this is a general introduction to abstract existence. So you proved my point. Thanks

Nope you prove my points yes that's general introduction for AE which can be used for either type.

It's not unrelated, actually his point is unrelated because we already Answered those questions multiple times . He should know the answer.

And my point is you dont need to fight as a Abstraction type 1 to get AE1 , while we have seen tensura characters fight as a abstraction in Spiritual world so they can fight as a abstraction and exist in material world and utilize their powers in Material world. But cant physically intract with the material world but still can use their magic and skills

 

[DeusExMachine001]

You , i and Celestial Pegasus agreed with limited abstract existence. I believe we can just conclude with that. It's just small change. I will ask ant regarding this wait.

It's not limited , That's straight AE1

 

[CodeCCLL]

You , i and Celestial Pegasus agreed with limited abstract existence. I believe we can just conclude with that. It's just small change. I will ask ant regarding this wait.

They need material body as Veldora states. Otherwise he would eventually disappear and reborn into seperate being

You ignored the two comments that this is not the case, so I don't know if we agree.

I think you completely misunderstanded. As seen in this scan after the scan I shared, Spiritual Life Forms will later transcend this restriction and can leave their physical bodies behind if they wish.

Spiritual lifeforms think with only their soul, and can continue existing as just that

As the Celestial Pegasus stated, they can exist as soul forever.

The key takeaway here is that there are eight kinds of elemental souls, each higher up than elemental spirits. The highest ranked among them are the True Dragons.
So the True Dragons stand at the pinnacle of all elemental souls, and it’s safe to say that Benimaru had evolved into a similar existence. Flamesoul Ogres are spiritual life-forms, but they also have physical bodies that let them properly interact with the material world. With their infinite life span, calling people like him god-ogres wouldn’t be pushing it at all. (Volume 14, Chapter 4)

True Dragons should probably be limited abstracts too just like Beni, not full on abstracts, they do indeed need a physical body to interact with the world, but they have no attachment to it, as in what they truly are, are souls, so even if their physical bodies where destroyed, they would continue to exist as a soul, and can regenerate from that.

This comment I agree with.

But there are those who disagree with this, so it might be good to get an opinion from another staff .

 

[DeusExMachine001]

This comment I agree with.

They need a physical body to intract physically with the material world ,they can already utilize all of their powers.
Because skills are inscribed into Nucleic Heart ( Thing that soul covers )

 

[Starfeldway]

It's not Fighting instead existing of course.

Here is the thing. If Veldora is put into a place where his Physical body would constantly gets erased where he only need to exists as abstraction can he exists as abstraction for eternity? No of course not he would erased and reborn if he exists as abstraction for longer time. So check the scan in the OP. It's clearly mentions of True Dragons lacks body their abstraction would be erased.

what is veldanava doing

 

[Starfeldway]

fr you guys should have knowledge before making a debunk

 

[Starfeldway]

they can become abstract for eternity their own manifestation is decided by them alone lol, Feldway now wants to force Veldanava coming back by either destroying the world (in other to get stopped by him)or creating a suitable physical vessel for his manifestation

 

[Starfeldway]

if you didn't read the novels of course you won't understand

 

[Starfeldway]

VELDANAVA DOESNT EVEN HAVE A SOUL

 

[Starfeldway]

let's break it down
“Lord Veldanava! If you want to punish me, then punish me. That is what I want. Now, hurry or there will be no more worlds.” (Volumd 16 prologue)

it simply entails atleast Veldanava exist and is aware of the situations going on

«There is no reason to come back. In the first place, Veldanava should be capable of regenerating his body himself if he intends to return.»

simply speaking if Veldanava wishes to return he can create his own physical body

Kufufufu. They seem to believe that if they take in the power of the three “True Dragons,” Veldanava-sama will be revived with all of the Dragon Factors. I think it is foolish, but can we be absolutely sure that it wouldn’t work?”

in addition to that

Yes, that made sense. They think he’ll be resurrected after he’s eaten, just like I did. In doing so, the memories would be inherited, so whether or not the personality would change was simply not a matter of concern.

like rimuru, what rimuru did was devour the dragon factor of a true dragon and became a true dragon, so that means in this context even the soul doesn't matter because it'll him creating his own soul all over again
the factors will be used to create a suitable body for that to be possible

 

[Starfeldway]

The Ego is contained within the Nucleic Heart (which is the innermost part of an entity and it is made of information particles), and the Ego is one's will, personality, desire, sense of self, consciousness. It is also an entity's "self" as well as a wavelength and it is wrapped around by the Membrane/Core which is the collective form of the information particles.

Soul is the crystallized energy covering the Membrane/Core. The information etched in the soul is the source of the exercise of power and the source of one's strength.

Astral Body is the vessel of the Soul and the direct projection of the Ego, as it is the thought process, so it acts as the faculty of imagination.

Spiritual Body is the information processor and it is the thing that can allow one to interact with things outside one's self as well as being the memory, a recorder and vessel for the produced thoughts. But it is only a virtual memory not a permanent storage. Therefore, the Material Body exists to act as so.

Magic Circuits are the things that circulates Magic Power or Mana and contains magical and spiritual energies and handles movement of internal energies

Mana or Magical Power/Force is the ability to control magical and spiritual energies

Spiritual Power/Force is the ability to calculate/analyze/identify/compute/etc and/or just mental capabilities in general.


Veldora states true dragons don't even need a core when core exist deeper than the soul.
if you destroy a true dragon soul they can reform another one lmao.
perfect example Veldora who got annihilated by Velzard multiple times (which includes his soul)
to true dragons soul,core and nucleic heart doesn't matter in all sense of the word just that their personality would be reset a little, they can also choose whenever they revive

 

[Starfeldway]

all you guys arguments for limited abstract existence makes no sense you decided to just jump the gum cuz rimuru got upgraded lol

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Cool you've proven that they are abstract.
But it was stated time and time that they still need physical or spiritual body to interact with the world.

Thats still limited because although they choose when or how they are reborn. Thats still the only thing they have shown to do.

They would get full AE 1 IF they do not need any form whether they are spiritual or physical just to interact. Basically saying they can do what they can do like they have a physical body like interacting. Which they can only do when they have spiritual body and physical.

Your example of Velzard with erasing Veldora also proves that because Veldora after being erased can no longer fight and had to recreate his entire body whether that body is a spiritual body or physical body is irrelevant if you cannot do things as if you have a physical body while an abstracts then you are limited

 

[ImmortalDread]

So in fact, in terms of fights, the person needs body to fight, this is nowhere AE type 1

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This thread is three pages long, and not exactly doing any favors. A new thread should be made, summarizing both arguments and leaving it to staff.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This thread is three pages long, and not exactly doing any favors. A new thread should be made, summarizing both arguments and leaving it to staff.

Let me see. I dropped CM type 2 abstraction argument. Now we are just debating it as limited or permanent AE.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

let's break it down
“Lord Veldanava! If you want to punish me, then punish me. That is what I want. Now, hurry or there will be no more worlds.” (Volumd 16 prologue)

it simply entails atleast Veldanava exist and is aware of the situations going on

«There is no reason to come back. In the first place, Veldanava should be capable of regenerating his body himself if he intends to return.»

simply speaking if Veldanava wishes to return he can create his own physical body

Kufufufu. They seem to believe that if they take in the power of the three “True Dragons,” Veldanava-sama will be revived with all of the Dragon Factors. I think it is foolish, but can we be absolutely sure that it wouldn’t work?”

in addition to that

Yes, that made sense. They think he’ll be resurrected after he’s eaten, just like I did. In doing so, the memories would be inherited, so whether or not the personality would change was simply not a matter of concern.

like rimuru, what rimuru did was devour the dragon factor of a true dragon and became a true dragon, so that means in this context even the soul doesn't matter because it'll him creating his own soul all over again
the factors will be used to create a suitable body for that to be possible

So you need to merge 3 dragons to recreate Veldanova? Also Regenerating body is just Regeneration feat or Immortality. We are talking about abstraction for Veldora not Veldanova from you scan

Kufufufu. They seem to believe that if they take in the power of the three “True Dragons,” Veldanava-sama will be revived with all of the Dragon Factors. I think it is foolish, but can we be absolutely sure that it wouldn’t work?”

Veldanova is combination of all 3 Dragons. Correct me i am wrong.

 

[ImmortalDread]

A real AE existence, needs something to form it. Lol-

 

[Catpija]

So you need to merge 3 dragons to recreate Veldanova?

Veldanova is combination of all 3 Dragons. Correct me i am wrong.

Nah.
Feldway & Michael was just getting desperate for bringing their master back that they tried anything they could even think of. It was pretty clear that this won't work as some of the smartest character in the series mocked this idea.

“No, I doubt that, but that's okay. I was just curious about Michael's thoughts. How is he going to bring Veldanava back?”

Guy pressed me to tell him what I knew.

‘How the hell should I know?’—is what I was about to say when I remembered something.

“Oh, now that I think about it, he was saying something about that.”

“Yeah. He mentioned it.”

I muttered, and Veldora, who was listening along, nodded.

Yes, I think—”

“Kufufufu. They seem to believe that if they take in the power of the three “True Dragons,” Veldanava-sama will be revived with all of the “Dragon Factors.” I think it is foolish, but can we be absolutely sure that it wouldn’t work?”

Diablo explained it before I could remember.

That’s right, I remembered it was something like that. I had forgotten about it because it didn't seem realistic at the time and I didn't think such a method would be successful.

In the first place, the “Dragon Factor” was the key.


«If it’s about “Dragon Factor,” Master has also acquired it»



Oh, I've become a “True Dragon” of sorts, haven't I? So then, it's not surprising that I have the “Dragon Factor.”

Be that as it may…

Velzard, Velgrynd, and Veldora. Even if you collect the “Dragon Factor” from all three True Dragons, it's meaningless if the most important factor, Veldanava's, is missing.

If the soul is different, then it's a different person.

According to Diablo, it's not impossible, though.

“Ah? It’s absurd, that theory. Even if you could recreate him, it would only be a pseudo-body, and while they might be able to imitate his skills, they wouldn't have anything to do with the soul which is the most essential part.”

Guy interjected, seemingly to be of the same opinion as I was. (Volume 18, Chapter 1)

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

So you need to merge 3 dragons to recreate Veldanova? Also Regenerating body is just Regeneration feat or Immortality. We are talking about abstraction for Veldora not Veldanova from you scan

Veldanova is combination of all 3 Dragons. Correct me i am wrong.

It was the theory that Manas: Michael believed in to resurrect Veldanava.

Ciel itself has denied that where he stated that Veldanava could regenerate his body if he wanted to.

In case you didn't know (Spoiler alert), Manas: Michael is an abstract existence born from the Ultimate Skill 'Justice King Michael' which used to be Veldanava's skill. Long ago, Veldanava exchanged Michael with Uriel for Rudra. And after Veldanava's 'death', Michael developed his ego and then he was born as Manas (Information Particle Entity). Then he planned to revive Veldanava by gathering all the skills and dragon factor.

 

[CodeCCLL]

So in fact, in terms of fights, the person needs body to fight, this is nowhere AE type 1

A real AE existence, needs something to form it. Lol-

From this point on, I'm starting to think you're doing this on purpose.

Is this a troll or something else?

Are you going to keep ignoring Staff's comments, members' arguments, and scans and repeat the same thing?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am not ignoring anything, I am still entitled that this is limited. AE type 1 existence don't need body to interact to anyone. In fact, others needs to feat to interact with abstract beings.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Nah.
Feldway & Michael was just getting desperate for bringing their master back that they tried anything they could even think of. It was pretty clear that this won't work as some of the smartest character in the series mocked this idea.

Thanks for Clarifying. My main problem comes from this. I agree for Veldanova being AE type 1 without any limitations if he can Regenerate his body anytime. But this scan regarding Veldora kinda shows they do material body to exists. Otherwise they would cease to exist then reborn into some new dragon. So it would be limited for atleast Veldora and other true dragons. Thry wouldn't die but they can't exists purely as abstraction. That's my problem here.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

 

[CodeCCLL]

I am not ignoring anything, I am still entitled that this is limited. AE type 1 existence don't need body to interact to anyone. In fact, others needs to feat to interact with abstract beings.

I was still thinking you were going to say "This is AE Type 2" ok then it's fine.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

I agree for Veldanova being AE type 1 without any limitations if he can Regenerate his body anytime. But this scan regarding Veldora kinda shows they do material body to exists. Otherwise they would cease to exist then reborn into some new dragon. So it would be limited for atleast Veldora and other true dragons. Thry wouldn't die but they can't exists purely as abstraction.

Bruh

Veldanava is one of the four True Dragons (Now five because of Rimuru)

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Bruh

Veldanava is one of the four True Dragons (Now five because of Rimuru)

But scan literally Contradicting what you guys are saying. So Veldora existed alongside Veldanova before even World was created by Veldanova?

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

You set Veldanava apart from other True Dragons, even though they weren't that different physiologically.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You set Veldanava apart from other True Dragons, even though they weren't that different physiologically.

It does matter. Because Veldanova doesn't need physical body so he has solid AE type 1. I agree but Veldora case is different. It stated he needs physical body otherwise he would reborn into some new existence. If Veldora was born after Veldanova created the world then there is a possibility that he has some different kind of physiology.

Even if it's not big abstraction existence for both has different statements.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

You set Veldanava apart from other True Dragons, even though they weren't that different physiologically.

They are both True Dragons

If you think Veldanava is different, you need to prove that Veldanava as True Dragon is physiologically different from other True Dragons.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I was still thinking you were going to say "This is AE Type 2" ok then it's fine.

No I have changed my mind after looking at evidences.

Unlike others, I do change my mind constantly, if I find something convincing.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

They are both True Dragons

If you think Veldanava is different, you need to prove that Veldanava is physiologically different from other True Dragons.

It does matter. Because Veldanova doesn't need physical body so he has solid AE type 1. I agree but Veldora case is different. It stated he needs physical body otherwise he would reborn into some new existence. If Veldora was born after Veldanova created the world then there is a possibility that he has some different kind of physiology.

Even if it's not big abstraction existence for both has different statements.

I already proved that both abstraction is Contradicting with each other's scans. So it's your burden to show me a scan for Veldora existing as abstraction on same level as Veldanova or just show me some statement.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

It does matter. Because Veldanova doesn't need physical body so he has solid AE type 1. I agree but Veldora case is different. It stated he needs physical body otherwise he would reborn into some new existence. If Veldora was born after Veldanova created the world then there is a possibility that he has some different kind of physiology.

Even if it's not big abstraction existence for both has different statements.

Proof or headcannon?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Proof or headcannon?

Not my Burden. You need to show me scan for Veldora existing as pure Abstraction with no limitations like Veldanova.

I already shown the scan for him Disappearing and reborn as some new existence it's not my burden. You need to prove that proof not words.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

Also

We're at VSB, we prove things with scans/feats. Not with a headcannon that looks funny to those who understand Tensura.

Prove that Veldanava as a True Dragon is physiologically different from other true dragons.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Also

We're at VSB, we prove things with scans/feats. Not with a headcannon that looks funny to those who understand Tensura.

Prove that Veldanava as a True Dragon is physiologically different from other true dragons.

Dude . Read what I wrote about. You are just appealing to ignorance at this point. I even sent scans.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

Dude . Read what I wrote about. You are just appealing to ignorance at this point. I even sent scans.

The scan that says they're physiologically different?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Thunderian, you are going into circles for simply not proving a claim.
You claimed Veldora exists as abstraction without any weakness/limitations because the default assumption is that they are required a physical body to interact.
Him being different is too vague without some context.

You simply need to prove this.