Prime Hashirama And Prime EMS Madara Upgrade

[Shining_Cross]

Vote-Madara > JJ-Obito

When revived by Rinnei-Tensei it’s stated that Madara gains a higher degree of his original power

Supported by how Edo-Madara couldn’t escape Hashirama’s Tori-Gates but Revived-Madara easily breaks them

Madara then becomes more powerful absorbing Hashirama’s SM, and is stated to have become a more powerful villain then Obito

This is supported by a weaker Edo-Madara stating with Edo-Hashirama’s Sage Chakra he would beat JJ-Obito:

That same Madara was stated to be regaining his VoTE2-Power, but not there yet:

Meaning VoTE2-Madara > SM-Madara > JJ-Obito.

Prime-Hashirama > VoTe-Hashirama >= Madara:

Hashirama beat Madara, had time to improve

So Prime-Hashirama > VoTe2-Hashirama who was >= VoTe-Madara > SM-Madara > JJ-Obito

JJ-Obito =~ Hagaromo

It’s stated in the Manga/DB/Novel:

This is supported by JJ-Obito ability to use some of Hagaromo’s Best Techniques:

Teen-Hagaromo before even gaining the power of the Bijuu could fight a stronger Kaguya and beat her with the right Jutsu/Strategy:

The Founders who scale above JJ-Obito/Hagaromo, would be able to fight and beat a weaker Kaguya easier.

Win-Cons
Hashirama second type of Tori-Seal; the Head-Tori-Seal which has a hax component to it:

When it lands on an enemies head it prevents conscious thought, so even if the Kaguya has the strength to break it she won’t be able to think to do so:

Another wincon is their ability to rip the Bijuu-chakra out of Kaguya. When Kaguya gets hit from attacks with Bijuu-Chakra, their chakra leaks out:

Hashirama and Madara can use moves containing Bijuu-chakra and initiate a tug of war, and in these instances weaker characters can steal chakra from stronger ones:

Founders can defeat her like JJ-Obito was defeated:

This scale Prime Hashirama and Prime EMS Madara to God Tiers above Hagoromo.

 

[karzen]

follow

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Doesn't this contradict the statement that Ten Tails Madera was approching Hagomoro's power? If Alive Madara was above Hagomoro, why would he try to obtain power on Hagomoro's level?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don’t think Alive SM Madara being at that Juubito level or beyond is too crazy, so count me neutral leaning agree on that for the time being, but Juubito being on Hag’s level is blatantly wrong.

A few things, as Griff pointed out, Juubidara with one eye (who is objectively above Juubito) was only approaching Hag’s power and not at it. So, Hag > one eye Juubidara > Juubito, aka Hag >> Juubito. Second, when it says Obito obtained the same power as Hag, it’s talking about power in the sense of abilities/power set. Which is obvious considering Juubito had Hag’s special techniques like the Sword of Nunoboko as you point out. The statement is not talking about stats, but rather that by becoming the Juubi Jin, Obito got abilities similar to Hag, which makes sense since Hag was the Juubi Jin at one point too. So count me as disagree on any of the Hag scaling you mentioned.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

the first half of this is low key super based but the Juubito = Hagoromo part is a big no, theres an entire thread dedicated to why it's not valid

 

[Deceived3596]

Hashirama really do be folding Kaguya ong fr fr

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Hashirama really do be bending Kaguya over ong fr fr

Hashi's got that Wood Dragon

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, count me in disagreement too for the reasons given above.

 

[theultimate5105]

Disagree with the Jubbito scaling to Hagoromo part
neutral on the rest

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

Vote-Madara > JJ-Obito

When revived by Rinnei-Tensei it’s stated that Madara gains a higher degree of his original power

Supported by how Edo-Madara couldn’t escape Hashirama’s Tori-Gates but Revived-Madara easily breaks them

Madara then becomes more powerful absorbing Hashirama’s SM, and is stated to have become a more powerful villain then Obito

This is supported by a weaker Edo-Madara stating with Edo-Hashirama’s Sage Chakra he would beat JJ-Obito:

That same Madara was stated to be regaining his VoTE2-Power, but not there yet:

Meaning VoTE2-Madara > SM-Madara > JJ-Obito.

Prime-Hashirama > VoTe-Hashirama >= Madara:

Hashirama beat Madara, had time to improve

So Prime-Hashirama > VoTe2-Hashirama who was >= VoTe-Madara > SM-Madara > JJ-Obito

JJ-Obito =~ Hagaromo

It’s stated in the Manga/DB/Novel:

This is supported by JJ-Obito ability to use some of Hagaromo’s Best Techniques:

Teen-Hagaromo before even gaining the power of the Bijuu could fight a stronger Kaguya and beat her with the right Jutsu/Strategy:

The Founders who scale above JJ-Obito/Hagaromo, would be able to fight and beat a weaker Kaguya easier.

Win-Cons
Hashirama second type of Tori-Seal; the Head-Tori-Seal which has a hax component to it:

When it lands on an enemies head it prevents conscious thought, so even if the Kaguya has the strength to break it she won’t be able to think to do so:

Another wincon is their ability to rip the Bijuu-chakra out of Kaguya. When Kaguya gets hit from attacks with Bijuu-Chakra, their chakra leaks out:

Hashirama and Madara can use moves containing Bijuu-chakra and initiate a tug of war, and in these instances weaker characters can steal chakra from stronger ones:

Founders can defeat her like JJ-Obito was defeated:

This scale Prime Hashirama and Prime EMS Madara to God Tiers above Hagoromo.

Does this place have any rules regarding plagiarism?

Official Debate Aegon vs Turrin

Aegon - Kaguya (When First Revived in 4th War, no chakra absorbed from Planet). Turrin - Prime Living Hashirama + Prime VoTe 2 Madara w/ Kurama Battlefield - VoTe —— Rules: Format - 300 Word Intro Post, 400 Word 1st Rebuttal, and 500 Word Final Rebuttal. Judgment: Winner will be decided...

www.fanverse.org

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Agree with Alive Madara and Hashirama upgrade, but Juubito ain’t that guy chief.

 

[Halkum145]

Here is a phrase that says if madara gains the wise power he can stop the obito

Here, on the back of the manga cover, he is mentioned as the strongest man the shinobi world has ever seen for the alive sm madara.

sage mod is madara's "trump card" against obito

the 'greatest enemy'

plans to stop juubi obito with sage mod

his orginally strenght filed every corner of his body

greater power than edo madara

easyl stopped sasuke and mopped kurama avatar naruto

i agree with alive sm madara > juubito. I disagree with juubito > hagoromo

 

[Damage3245]

Here is a phrase that says if madara gains the wise power he can stop the obito

It doesn't say he could defeat Obito. It's just that Madara's intention is to take the Sage power from Obito. Confidence feats are not regarded too highly typically.

 

[Shining_Cross]

Obito is comparing himself to the Hagaromo of Myth/Legend who had the Juubi’s Chakra and the Yang Seal. However Hagaromo is comparing Madara to his current Transmigrant self who somehow has both the Yin Yang Seal.

I would simply say one possibility is that Yin Yang Seal Hagaromo is > 10-Tails Hagaromo, which is evident in the fact that Yin Yang Seal can seal Kaguya who is > 10-Tails Hagaromo. So Madara is getting closer to this Yin Yang seal Hagaromo but has already surpassed by at least a tiny bit the 10-Tails Hagaromo >=~ JJ Obito

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Obito is comparing himself to the Hagaromo of Myth/Legend who had the Juubi’s Chakra and the Yang Seal. However Hagaromo is comparing Madara to his current Transmigrant self who somehow has both the Yin Yang Seal.

I would simply say one possibility is that Yin Yang Seal Hagaromo is > 10-Tails Hagaromo, which is evident in the fact that Yin Yang Seal can seal Kaguya who is > 10-Tails Hagaromo. So Madara is getting closer to this Yin Yang seal Hagaromo but has already surpassed by at least a tiny bit the 10-Tails Hagaromo >=~ JJ Obito

What evidence is there that Juubi Jin Hag < ghost Hag outside of your equal interpretation tho, like anything in the manga or databooks that state or imply so

 

[TheGod]

It doesn't say he could defeat Obito. It's just that Madara's intention is to take the Sage power from Obito. Confidence feats are not regarded too highly typically.

from Obito? the text seems clear he is talking about using Hashirama's sage power to stop Obito

 

[Damage3245]

from Obito? the text seems clear he is talking about using Hashirama's sage power to stop Obito

Yes, he'd use Hashirama's Senjutsu to fight Obito as that is what Obito is vulnerable to, but just because that's his intention doesn't mean he'd succeed.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yes, he'd use Hashirama's Senjutsu to fight Obito as that is what Obito is vulnerable to, but just because that's his intention doesn't mean he'd succeed.

I agree with this sentiment in a vacuum, but I think the additional preponderance of evidence with stuff like volume backings calling him “the most powerful foe” lends some credence to that interpretation that Alive SM Madara should be in that similar vein of power. Because while SM does allow you to bypass Juubi Jin invuln, it isn’t like an ultimate dura neg. Juubito still could block nature energy attacks, as seen with his TSO shields and whatnot. Which would mean Madara would need to be somewhat comparable in the power department to deal any damage to Juubito.

 

[Damage3245]

Personally, I don't put a lot of stock into the volume backings for any series tbh.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Fair enough, do we know if Kishimoto writes the summaries/backings? I assume so since it’s released officially with his manga, it’s there if you go buy the book from a library. But idk if someone has evidence otherwise

 

[Halkum145]

It doesn't say he could defeat Obito. It's just that Madara's intention is to take the Sage power from Obito. Confidence feats are not regarded too highly typically.

The fact that there are expressions such as the strongest man supports the expression there.

 

[Godernet]

Ayo

I disagree with the Hags stuff for basically the same reasons already given.

Sage Madara/Alive Madara and Alive Sage Hashirama being somewhat near Juubito is very possible. Madara watched Juubito wipe the four Hokage, and his entire fight with BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke and still thought he could do it. I'm neutral but leaning agree with that one.

 

[Shining_Cross]

What evidence is there that Juubi Jin Hag < ghost Hag outside of your equal interpretation tho, like anything in the manga or databooks that state or imply so

Has Yin Yang Seal.

Also has better scaling via the statements themselves.

What evidence is there that Ghost Hagaromo isn’t stronger?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Has Yin Yang Seal.

Also has better scaling via the statements themselves.

What evidence is there that Ghost Hagaromo isn’t stronger?

Yin Yang seal doesn't mean he's stronger. Those statements are vague and don't inherently refer to ghost Hag, rather they more likely refer to Juubi Jin Hag because whenever they talk about gaining Hag's power it's either the Rinnegan or being a Juubi Jin. Onus is on you to prove ghost Hag is stronger not me to prove he's not.

 

[TheGod]

Yes, he'd use Hashirama's Senjutsu to fight Obito as that is what Obito is vulnerable to, but just because that's his intention doesn't mean he'd succeed.

his entire plan revolves around him defeating, weakening and taking the Juubi from Juubito.

for which he needs Hashirama's sage mode , which is a decision he made logically after witnessing Juubito's power.

and the idea which multiple statements from Madara give us , Alive SM > Juubito , is pretty consistent with the statements of him being the most powerful enemy ninja word ever faced and him being called the greatest enemy.

now matter how we look at it , there is far more evidence of alive SM Madara > Juubito then there is the other way around.

 

[Damage3245]

@TheGod; that's like saying "Naruto's plan is to use Sage Mode to fight Obito, so SM Naruto > Juubito". We don't just rank characters higher than each other because they want to beat each other.

 

[TheGod]

@TheGod; that's like saying "Naruto's plan is to use Sage Mode to fight Obito, so SM Naruto > Juubito". We don't just rank characters higher than each other because they want to beat each other.

Naruto's merely used SM to test out his theory of Sage energy countering sage energy , Madara actually saw Obito and decided he can beat him with Hashirama's power on top of him , Madara doesn't merely want to beat Obito but he is almost certain that he can.

 

[Shining_Cross]

Yin Yang seal doesn't mean he's stronger. Those statements are vague and don't inherently refer to ghost Hag, rather they more likely refer to Juubi Jin Hag because whenever they talk about gaining Hag's power it's either the Rinnegan or being a Juubi Jin. Onus is on you to prove ghost Hag is stronger not me to prove he's not.

Hagaromo uses the present tense

The only Hagaromo we know has both seals is Ghost, so the onus is on someone else to prove he had it before

 

[RanaProGamer]

Ok, I agree with the first half of scaling Alive Madara to Juubito but disagree with Juubito scaling to Hagoromo FRA.

 

[Nierre]

Following

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Hagaromo uses the present tense

The only Hagaromo we know has both seals is Ghost, so the onus is on someone else to prove he had it before

I’m not trying to prove he had the seals before…

 

[TauanVictor]

I agree with the first half of scaling Alive Madara to Juubito but disagree with Juubito scaling to Hagoromo FRA.

 

[LordTracer]

There’s no references anywhere, so I disagree with the entire thread

Unironically though, neutral on SM Madara scaling to Juubito, hard disagree on Juubito scaling to Hagoromo.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

I guess Sasuke's Sword would scale, since it was able to pierce Alive SM Madara's arm, and the Tailed Beast as well, since they were able to harm that Madara with their attacks, and their combined attack shattered his Susanoo and ripped his arm off. They were even able to take attacks from Alive Rinnegan SM Madara.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Madara say he was fighting recklessly intentionally cuz he wanted to get that blood flowing, literally

 

[Damage3245]

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Madara say he was fighting recklessly intentionally cuz he wanted to get that blood flowing, literally

I reread the chapters recently and I don't think he says that.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Madara say he was fighting recklessly intentionally cuz he wanted to get that blood flowing, literally

So he lowered his own Durability along with his Susanoo's Durability then?

No, it was because he had Hashirama's healing factor

 

[RanaProGamer]

I agree with the first half of scaling Alive Madara to Juubito but disagree with Juubito scaling to Hagoromo FRA.

Did… did you just copy paste my comment?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I reread the chapters recently and I don't think he says that.

So he lowered his own Durability along with his Susanoo's Durability then?

No, it was because he had Hashirama's healing factor

This is what I’m referring too, Madara was being careless since he knew he could just regen so there’s no need for him to fight on guard per se. I think that’s on his profile too atm?

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

This is what I’m referring too, Madara was being careless since he knew he could just regen so there’s no need for him to fight on guard per se.

So he intentionally lowered his Durability and the Durability of his Susanoo so that both could be damaged?