Happy New Year From Kishimoto

[Arc7Kuroi]

yall need to stop coping over the fact KT and Damage disagree fr fr

 

[Damage3245]

yall need to stop coping over the fact KT and Damage disagree fr fr

Thanks.

And I know some people may not believe me, but if the databooks went the full opposite direction and said twice that "Kirin is hypersonic in speed" then I would still vehemently disagree with it. My disagreement has nothing to do with it being an upgrade or a downgrade.

 

[Godernet]

Damage and Tempest have their opinions and while I don't agree I will respect them.

Complaining won't change their minds or get the thread accepted any faster.

If you want to help try messaging a staff wall or two. Arc and I have both tried.

 

[Deceived3596]

I mean....... i'm already here

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I messaged Griff, so let's just be patient.

 

[Godernet]

I mean....... i'm already here

 

[Deceived3596]

@Arc7Kuroi He doesn't understand.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi He doesn't understand.

It's your cruel dispassionate fascism and joyless nihilism that is a totally accurate reference and depiction of Bleach that's confusing him

 

[Godernet]

me when mfs talk about Bleach

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

me when mfs talk about Bleach

See I was right

 

[KingTempest]

Just remove my vote and input altogether

 

[Godernet]

See I was right

Tite Kubo's Finest Work

 

[Deceived3596]

me when mfs talk about Bleach

I'm going to school-yard bully you, giving you all kinds of atomic wedges, purple nerples and wet willies.

Just remove my vote and input altogether

May i ask why you want your vote removed?

 

[Damage3245]

I will prepare a final post on this tomorrow when I have the time. I ask that other staff hold off from giving final evaluations until I've made my final argument explaining my position.

 

[Godernet]

I'm going to school-yard bully you, giving you all kinds of atomic wedges, purple nerples and wet willies.

Deceived when he finds out I bench 225

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Deceived when he finds out I bench 225

Damn you wouldn’t even be able to budge Deceived an inch

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I will prepare a final post on this tomorrow when I have the time. I ask that other staff hold off from giving final evaluations until I've made my final argument explaining my position.

Ig can you ping the participating staff when you drop your message so they’re easily notified of it, in case they stopped following or miss the normal thread notif

 

[Testarossa002]

The funniest thing is that if the author's statement was something that nerfed what he presented in the manga, certain staff members here would go to nerf...

Bruh
When the Kirin stuff was being calced, Damage was of the opinion to use the average lightning speed rather than Zetsu's timeframe because he was skeptic about zetsu's reliability
Now that there's something that makes the jutsu scale higher, zetsu suddenly becomes reliable

 

[Testarossa002]

If you want to help try messaging a staff wall or two. Arc and I have both tried.

The naruto supporters mods are either unavailable or have given their input
Reached out to others though

 

[Antvasima]

@LordTracer @Shadowbokunohero @KingTempest @Damage3245

What are your conclusions here so far?

 

[Damage3245]

@LordTracer @Shadowbokunohero @KingTempest @Damage3245

What are your conclusions here so far?

From what I can tell, Shadow is in favor of a "possibly Lightspeed" rating for Kirin.

LordTracer is neutral on it.

KingTempest has retracted his vote on it but I'll ask him to comment once I've made my final argument.

And I'm against the lightspeed proposal for Kirin, and will leave a final argument later today on my position.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @DemonGodMitchAubin @UchihaSlayer96 @LordGriffin1000 @KLOL506

Your input would also be appreciated here.

 

[Antvasima]

From what I can tell, Shadow is in favor of a "possibly Lightspeed" rating for Kirin.

LordTracer is neutral on it.

KingTempest has retracted his vote on it but I'll ask him to comment once I've made my final argument.

And I'm against the lightspeed proposal for Kirin, and will leave a final argument later today on my position.

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

It seems best if I read through your argument later then.

 

[KLOL506]

@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @DemonGodMitchAubin @UchihaSlayer96 @LordGriffin1000 @KLOL506

Your input would also be appreciated here.

No. Keep me out of Naruto threads.

 

[Damage3245]

To me, everything we know about Kirin from the original manga supports an MHS+ rating over a lightspeed rating.

To start off with, Sasuke hypes up the jutsu in Chapter 390 by claiming that it only lasts an instant and much like the Amaterasu, it cannot be evaded. The emphasis on it is for its speed but we don't get clarification on exactly what he means by that until the next chapter.

What Zetsu mentally questions this claim. He doesn't understand what the jutsu is yet.

Black Zetsu has an epiphany as they notice the thundercloud overhead and realizes that this is what Sasuke has been gearing up for with his earlier jutsu. He's been forming a thundercloud which will be the source of his next jutsu.

White Zetsu still doesn't get it, so Black Zetsu explains what is happening. Since Sasuke is so low on chakra, he is going to take advantage of the enormous ambient atmospheric energy that is present in order to execute a lightning style jutsu more powerful than any other. This is important because the source of this jutsu, is a natural phenomena which will produce real, natural lightning. This is not lightning formed via chakra; this is not lightning imbued with chakra; this is not lightning amped by chakra. The resulting destruction is overwhelmingly powerful because there is a large amount of energy present, but everything about the lightning itself is natural.

Sasuke makes the next crucial statement when he directly explains the mechanics of the jutsu. The jutsu "guides the lightning striking down from the heavens", in short, Sasuke "merely directs its power" towards Itachi. This is so direct and simple; Sasuke is guiding an enormous amount of natural lightning from the thundercloud to his target. He even says he is merely "directing its power." That is all he is doing.

Black Zetsu then makes the connection back to what Sasuke said earlier. Remember how Sasuke said that the jutsu cannot be evaded? Black Zetsu explains to White Zetsu that the reason it cannot be avoided is because of the speed of lightning. He gives a direct timeframe too to highlight its speed. Nothing about it being augmented. Why else would he even mention this at all if the speed of natural lightning isn't supposed to be considered fast?

Thinking about this from a meta perspective for a moment, why is Black Zetsu getting all of these thought bubbles? Is it crucial for the story that White Zetsu understands what is going on? It's a bit obvious, but the reason why this explanation is appearing on the page at all is because Black Zetsu and White Zetsu are vehicles for Kishimoto to speak to the audience. What benefit is there to lie to the audience and make it so that the explanation that the Kirin's impressive speed comes from the speed of lightning.... when it actually have absolutely nothing to do with that and it's lightspeed instead?

All the implications and statements from the Kirin jutsu, from Sasuke the originator or the jutsu, and Black Zetsu, one of the most knowledgeable and observant characters in Naruto, indicate that the Kirin is natural lightning, and it is as fast as lightning because it is lightning.

Databook statements after the fact may very well just be hype text and metaphor. We've all heard the frequent metaphor that a character is "lightning speed" without the character literally being MHS+; it's just an expression to indicate that their speed is on another level. So too could this easily be the case with "the jutsu rushes toward the target at lightspeed." Hell, the databook once described Itachi's Water Bullets as being lightspeed (Admittedly, this may be a mistranslation as old scans are rife with that). It's not unreasonable to simply dismiss the databook statements in this case (which we take on a case-by-case basis anyway) and go with the more consistent explanation straight from the manga.

I can understand if some people still disagree with me, but this is my thought process regarding the Kirin which I hope people will get a bit more now that I've laid it out.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Damage3245.

I am not the best person to evaluate your arguments though, and have limited free time available, so it would probably be best if I unsubscribe from this thread, as I have called for other staff members to help out here.

 

[Tomboy11]

To me, everything we know about Kirin from the original manga supports an MHS+ rating over a lightspeed rating.

To start off with, Sasuke hypes up the jutsu in Chapter 390 by claiming that it only lasts an instant and much like the Amaterasu, it cannot be evaded. The emphasis on it is for its speed but we don't get clarification on exactly what he means by that until the next chapter.

What Zetsu mentally questions this claim. He doesn't understand what the jutsu is yet.

Black Zetsu has an epiphany as they notice the thundercloud overhead and realizes that this is what Sasuke has been gearing up for with his earlier jutsu. He's been forming a thundercloud which will be the source of his next jutsu.

White Zetsu still doesn't get it, so Black Zetsu explains what is happening. Since Sasuke is so low on chakra, he is going to take advantage of the enormous ambient atmospheric energy that is present in order to execute a lightning style jutsu more powerful than any other. This is important because the source of this jutsu, is a natural phenomena which will produce real, natural lightning. This is not lightning formed via chakra; this is not lightning imbued with chakra; this is not lightning amped by chakra. The resulting destruction is overwhelmingly powerful because there is a large amount of energy present, but everything about the lightning itself is natural.

Sasuke makes the next crucial statement when he directly explains the mechanics of the jutsu. The jutsu "guides the lightning striking down from the heavens", in short, Sasuke "merely directs its power" towards Itachi. This is so direct and simple; Sasuke is guiding an enormous amount of natural lightning from the thundercloud to his target. He even says he is merely "directing its power." That is all he is doing.

Black Zetsu then makes the connection back to what Sasuke said earlier. Remember how Sasuke said that the jutsu cannot be evaded? Black Zetsu explains to White Zetsu that the reason it cannot be avoided is because of the speed of lightning. He gives a direct timeframe too to highlight its speed. Nothing about it being augmented. Why else would he even mention this at all if the speed of natural lightning isn't supposed to be considered fast?

Thinking about this from a meta perspective for a moment, why is Black Zetsu getting all of these thought bubbles? Is it crucial for the story that White Zetsu understands what is going on? It's a bit obvious, but the reason why this explanation is appearing on the page at all is because Black Zetsu and White Zetsu are vehicles for Kishimoto to speak to the audience. What benefit is there to lie to the audience and make it so that the explanation that the Kirin's impressive speed comes from the speed of lightning.... when it actually have absolutely nothing to do with that and it's lightspeed instead?

All the implications and statements from the Kirin jutsu, from Sasuke the originator or the jutsu, and Black Zetsu, one of the most knowledgeable and observant characters in Naruto, indicate that the Kirin is natural lightning, and it is as fast as lightning because it is lightning.

Databook statements after the fact may very well just be hype text and metaphor. We've all heard the frequent metaphor that a character is "lightning speed" without the character literally being MHS+; it's just an expression to indicate that their speed is on another level. So too could this easily be the case with "the jutsu rushes toward the target at lightspeed." Hell, the databook once described Itachi's Water Bullets as being lightspeed (Admittedly, this may be a mistranslation as old scans are rife with that). It's not unreasonable to simply dismiss the databook statements in this case (which we take on a case-by-case basis anyway) and go with the more consistent explanation straight from the manga.

I can understand if some people still disagree with me, but this is my thought process regarding the Kirin which I hope people will get a bit more now that I've laid it out.t to

This is just the same agrument but in a longer format ,everything u said now has already been refuted in older messages

But if that is your final take nothing any one can do about it

 

[45Saef]

To me, everything we know about Kirin from the original manga supports an MHS+ rating over a lightspeed rating.

To start off with, Sasuke hypes up the jutsu in Chapter 390 by claiming that it only lasts an instant and much like the Amaterasu, it cannot be evaded. The emphasis on it is for its speed but we don't get clarification on exactly what he means by that until the next chapter.

What Zetsu mentally questions this claim. He doesn't understand what the jutsu is yet.

Black Zetsu has an epiphany as they notice the thundercloud overhead and realizes that this is what Sasuke has been gearing up for with his earlier jutsu. He's been forming a thundercloud which will be the source of his next jutsu.

White Zetsu still doesn't get it, so Black Zetsu explains what is happening. Since Sasuke is so low on chakra, he is going to take advantage of the enormous ambient atmospheric energy that is present in order to execute a lightning style jutsu more powerful than any other. This is important because the source of this jutsu, is a natural phenomena which will produce real, natural lightning. This is not lightning formed via chakra; this is not lightning imbued with chakra; this is not lightning amped by chakra. The resulting destruction is overwhelmingly powerful because there is a large amount of energy present, but everything about the lightning itself is natural.

Sasuke makes the next crucial statement when he directly explains the mechanics of the jutsu. The jutsu "guides the lightning striking down from the heavens", in short, Sasuke "merely directs its power" towards Itachi. This is so direct and simple; Sasuke is guiding an enormous amount of natural lightning from the thundercloud to his target. He even says he is merely "directing its power." That is all he is doing.

Black Zetsu then makes the connection back to what Sasuke said earlier. Remember how Sasuke said that the jutsu cannot be evaded? Black Zetsu explains to White Zetsu that the reason it cannot be avoided is because of the speed of lightning. He gives a direct timeframe too to highlight its speed. Nothing about it being augmented. Why else would he even mention this at all if the speed of natural lightning isn't supposed to be considered fast?

Thinking about this from a meta perspective for a moment, why is Black Zetsu getting all of these thought bubbles? Is it crucial for the story that White Zetsu understands what is going on? It's a bit obvious, but the reason why this explanation is appearing on the page at all is because Black Zetsu and White Zetsu are vehicles for Kishimoto to speak to the audience. What benefit is there to lie to the audience and make it so that the explanation that the Kirin's impressive speed comes from the speed of lightning.... when it actually have absolutely nothing to do with that and it's lightspeed instead?

All the implications and statements from the Kirin jutsu, from Sasuke the originator or the jutsu, and Black Zetsu, one of the most knowledgeable and observant characters in Naruto, indicate that the Kirin is natural lightning, and it is as fast as lightning because it is lightning.

Databook statements after the fact may very well just be hype text and metaphor. We've all heard the frequent metaphor that a character is "lightning speed" without the character literally being MHS+; it's just an expression to indicate that their speed is on another level. So too could this easily be the case with "the jutsu rushes toward the target at lightspeed." Hell, the databook once described Itachi's Water Bullets as being lightspeed (Admittedly, this may be a mistranslation as old scans are rife with that). It's not unreasonable to simply dismiss the databook statements in this case (which we take on a case-by-case basis anyway) and go with the more consistent explanation straight from the manga.

I can understand if some people still disagree with me, but this is my thought process regarding the Kirin which I hope people will get a bit more now that I've laid it out.

Since this is your take on the matter and as further addressed by Tomboy11, it’s basically the same thing u dropped earlier on before but in much further “context”, so I can’t disprove since it’s ur decision. We’ll have to wait for the final verdict/a staff input on the matter as well.

 

[Tomboy11]

To me, everything we know about Kirin from the original manga supports an MHS+ rating over a lightspeed rating.

To start off with, Sasuke hypes up the jutsu in Chapter 390 by claiming that it only lasts an instant and much like the Amaterasu, it cannot be evaded. The emphasis on it is for its speed but we don't get clarification on exactly what he means by that until the next chapter.

What Zetsu mentally questions this claim. He doesn't understand what the jutsu is yet.

Black Zetsu has an epiphany as they notice the thundercloud overhead and realizes that this is what Sasuke has been gearing up for with his earlier jutsu. He's been forming a thundercloud which will be the source of his next jutsu.

White Zetsu still doesn't get it, so Black Zetsu explains what is happening. Since Sasuke is so low on chakra, he is going to take advantage of the enormous ambient atmospheric energy that is present in order to execute a lightning style jutsu more powerful than any other. This is important because the source of this jutsu, is a natural phenomena which will produce real, natural lightning. This is not lightning formed via chakra; this is not lightning imbued with chakra; this is not lightning amped by chakra. The resulting destruction is overwhelmingly powerful because there is a large amount of energy present, but everything about the lightning itself is natural.

Sasuke makes the next crucial statement when he directly explains the mechanics of the jutsu. The jutsu "guides the lightning striking down from the heavens", in short, Sasuke "merely directs its power" towards Itachi. This is so direct and simple; Sasuke is guiding an enormous amount of natural lightning from the thundercloud to his target. He even says he is merely "directing its power." That is all he is doing.

Black Zetsu then makes the connection back to what Sasuke said earlier. Remember how Sasuke said that the jutsu cannot be evaded? Black Zetsu explains to White Zetsu that the reason it cannot be avoided is because of the speed of lightning. He gives a direct timeframe too to highlight its speed. Nothing about it being augmented. Why else would he even mention this at all if the speed of natural lightning isn't supposed to be considered fast?

Thinking about this from a meta perspective for a moment, why is Black Zetsu getting all of these thought bubbles? Is it crucial for the story that White Zetsu understands what is going on? It's a bit obvious, but the reason why this explanation is appearing on the page at all is because Black Zetsu and White Zetsu are vehicles for Kishimoto to speak to the audience. What benefit is there to lie to the audience and make it so that the explanation that the Kirin's impressive speed comes from the speed of lightning.... when it actually have absolutely nothing to do with that and it's lightspeed instead?

All the implications and statements from the Kirin jutsu, from Sasuke the originator or the jutsu, and Black Zetsu, one of the most knowledgeable and observant characters in Naruto, indicate that the Kirin is natural lightning, and it is as fast as lightning because it is lightning.

Databook statements after the fact may very well just be hype text and metaphor. We've all heard the frequent metaphor that a character is "lightning speed" without the character literally being MHS+; it's just an expression to indicate that their speed is on another level. So too could this easily be the case with "the jutsu rushes toward the target at lightspeed." Hell, the databook once described Itachi's Water Bullets as being lightspeed (Admittedly, this may be a mistranslation as old scans are rife with that). It's not unreasonable to simply dismiss the databook statements in this case (which we take on a case-by-case basis anyway) and go with the more consistent explanation straight from the manga.

I can understand if some people still disagree with me, but this is my thought process regarding the Kirin which I hope people will get a bit more now that I've laid it out.

But

To me, everything we know about Kirin from the original manga supports an MHS+ rating over a lightspeed rating.

To start off with, Sasuke hypes up the jutsu in Chapter 390 by claiming that it only lasts an instant and much like the Amaterasu, it cannot be evaded. The emphasis on it is for its speed but we don't get clarification on exactly what he means by that until the next chapter.

What Zetsu mentally questions this claim. He doesn't understand what the jutsu is yet.

Black Zetsu has an epiphany as they notice the thundercloud overhead and realizes that this is what Sasuke has been gearing up for with his earlier jutsu. He's been forming a thundercloud which will be the source of his next jutsu.

White Zetsu still doesn't get it, so Black Zetsu explains what is happening. Since Sasuke is so low on chakra, he is going to take advantage of the enormous ambient atmospheric energy that is present in order to execute a lightning style jutsu more powerful than any other. This is important because the source of this jutsu, is a natural phenomena which will produce real, natural lightning. This is not lightning formed via chakra; this is not lightning imbued with chakra; this is not lightning amped by chakra. The resulting destruction is overwhelmingly powerful because there is a large amount of energy present, but everything about the lightning itself is natural.

Sasuke makes the next crucial statement when he directly explains the mechanics of the jutsu. The jutsu "guides the lightning striking down from the heavens", in short, Sasuke "merely directs its power" towards Itachi. This is so direct and simple; Sasuke is guiding an enormous amount of natural lightning from the thundercloud to his target. He even says he is merely "directing its power." That is all he is doing.

Black Zetsu then makes the connection back to what Sasuke said earlier. Remember how Sasuke said that the jutsu cannot be evaded? Black Zetsu explains to White Zetsu that the reason it cannot be avoided is because of the speed of lightning. He gives a direct timeframe too to highlight its speed. Nothing about it being augmented. Why else would he even mention this at all if the speed of natural lightning isn't supposed to be considered fast?

Thinking about this from a meta perspective for a moment, why is Black Zetsu getting all of these thought bubbles? Is it crucial for the story that White Zetsu understands what is going on? It's a bit obvious, but the reason why this explanation is appearing on the page at all is because Black Zetsu and White Zetsu are vehicles for Kishimoto to speak to the audience. What benefit is there to lie to the audience and make it so that the explanation that the Kirin's impressive speed comes from the speed of lightning.... when it actually have absolutely nothing to do with that and it's lightspeed instead?

All the implications and statements from the Kirin jutsu, from Sasuke the originator or the jutsu, and Black Zetsu, one of the most knowledgeable and observant characters in Naruto, indicate that the Kirin is natural lightning, and it is as fast as lightning because it is lightning.

Databook statements after the fact may very well just be hype text and metaphor. We've all heard the frequent metaphor that a character is "lightning speed" without the character literally being MHS+; it's just an expression to indicate that their speed is on another level. So too could this easily be the case with "the jutsu rushes toward the target at lightspeed." Hell, the databook once described Itachi's Water Bullets as being lightspeed (Admittedly, this may be a mistranslation as old scans are rife with that). It's not unreasonable to simply dismiss the databook statements in this case (which we take on a case-by-case basis anyway) and go with the more consistent explanation straight from the manga.

I can understand if some people still disagree with me, but this is my thought process regarding the Kirin which I hope people will get a bit more now that I've laid it out.

Another thing on the hyper text stuff?
If the statement is not written in an hyperbolic like manner examples"as fast as light" or like a flash of light why would anyone take it as hyperbolic or metaphoric
It just state at light speed/ second statement say at the "speed of light "
When did people start taking
Light speed/ at the speed of light as hype text or metaphoric! Especially in a fictional world / especially when speed of light statement are mentioned multiple times
And on the Itachi water bullet stuff If the statement literally say his attacks are light speed why would anyone take it as hyperbolic?
Damage I don't want this to sound like I am poisoning the well but this is just an observation form my own part u tend to like to dismiss scans if it doesn't follow your particular line of reasoning without even fully understanding the agrument
.even with Manga canon scan you also tried to tell us we should dismiss the hokages fighting kinishiki and momoshike
At a point I think u made a statement that u guys at Vs Wiki dismiss scans all the time which became like a big as meme in the debating communities ( people told me there was context behind that statement but I was available during most of the thread and it seemed like that was what u where trying to purpose after most of your agrument when refuted ) I could be mistaken tho !
Maybe it is just the way u skeptically reason
But at times this make u look disingenuous

As I stated if that is your final reasoning on the matter then that's okay from me especially when most of the things u drop as already been mostly addressed

 

[Testarossa002]

To start off with, Sasuke hypes up the jutsu in Chapter 390 by claiming that it only lasts an instant and much like the Amaterasu, it cannot be evaded. The emphasis on it is for its speed but we don't get clarification on exactly what he means by that until the next chapter.

Before this gets glossed over
The implications of this statement is that Kirin would be much faster than anything else
Including a Kid Kakashi that could react to naturally occuring lightning
And a 3T Itachi who could keep up in combat against a much stronger Kakashi

White Zetsu still doesn't get it, so Black Zetsu explains what is happening. Since Sasuke is so low on chakra, he is going to take advantage of the enormous ambient atmospheric energy that is present in order to execute a lightning style jutsu more powerful than any other. This is important because the source of this jutsu, is a natural phenomena which will produce real, natural lightning. This is not lightning formed via chakra; this is not lightning imbued with chakra; this is not lightning amped by chakra. The resulting destruction is overwhelmingly powerful because there is a large amount of energy present, but everything about the lightning itself is natural.

Again
Zetsu is giving his assertion based off what he's seeing in real time
Kirin is not a naturally occuring lightning
The very fact that supernatural energy is in it's creation makes it open to being amped or nerfed
If you attribute the enormous energy for it's 2 billion+ amp in AP, why are you ruling out the possibility of said energy amping the speed
Iiirc @Arc7Kuroi mentioned something sciency earlier on how the KE is affected

Sasuke makes the next crucial statement when he directly explains the mechanics of the jutsu. The jutsu "guides the lightning striking down from the heavens", in short, Sasuke "merely directs its power" towards Itachi. This is so direct and simple; Sasuke is guiding an enormous amount of natural lightning from the thundercloud to his target. He even says he is merely "directing its power." That is all he is doing.

Again
Not a naturally occuring "heaven"

Black Zetsu then makes the connection back to what Sasuke said earlier. Remember how Sasuke said that the jutsu cannot be evaded? Black Zetsu explains to White Zetsu that the reason it cannot be avoided is because of the speed of lightning. He gives a direct timeframe too to highlight its speed. Nothing about it being augmented. Why else would he even mention this at all if the speed of natural lightning isn't supposed to be considered fast?

Yeah
Lightning coming down from a cloud would move at the speed of lightning
Any bystander could have as well make that conclusion
In this case however, we see that this lightning or the clouds it's coming from are in no way your regular cloud
That alone faults the assertion of it just being just lightning

Thinking about this from a meta perspective for a moment, why is Black Zetsu getting all of these thought bubbles? Is it crucial for the story that White Zetsu understands what is going on? It's a bit obvious, but the reason why this explanation is appearing on the page at all is because Black Zetsu and White Zetsu are vehicles for Kishimoto to speak to the audience. What benefit is there to lie to the audience and make it so that the explanation that the Kirin's impressive speed comes from the speed of lightning.... when it actually have absolutely nothing to do with that and it's lightspeed instead?

Nobody here is saying they lied
Zetsu is simply speaking from his PoV
Which is unreliable as he is only drawing his conclusion based off what he's seeing
"Oh cloud", "Oh the lightning from a cloud is this"
Same way you can predict the speed of lightning during a thunderstorm
He's not the jutsu creator nor was he involved when the jutsu was being invented
If the source was Orochimaru or Kabuto who apart from being sciency witnessed sasuke invent the jutsu, then you would have a point

Hell, the databook once described Itachi's Water Bullets as being lightspeed. It's not unreasonable to simply dismiss the databook statements in this case (which we take on a case-by-case basis anyway) and go with the more consistent explanation straight from the manga.

Arc translated the raws and got lightning speed
I could've mentioned it earlier as a supporting arguement but you would've replied with "are you ware that lightning speed varies"

In conclusion
A. Zetsu is not the most reliable character in this context
B. Something moving at lightning speed prior to that point were nothing new
1. Raikiri's Lore
2. False Darkness(apart from the assumptions made for raiton, it's stated to be a lightning bolt)
3. Itachi's water bullet
4. Water guy's water pistol(can't remember his name rn)
The first 2 were actually dealt with with pure speed
C. Not 1 but 2 Jutsu guides which are WoG put kirin at LS
D. It's the shape of a freaking giraffe

 

[Damage3245]

Damage I don't want this to sound like I am poisoning the well but this is just an observation form my own part u tend to like to dismiss scans if it doesn't follow your particular line of reasoning without even fully understanding the agrument
.even with Manga canon scan you also tried to tell us we should dismiss the hokages fighting kinishiki and momoshike
At a point I think u made a statement that u guys at Vs Wiki dismiss scans all the time which became like a big as meme in the debating communities ( people told me there was context behind that statement but I was available during most of the thread and it seemed like that was what u where trying to purpose after most of your agrument when refuted ) I could be mistaken tho !
Maybe it is just the way u skeptically reason
But at times this make u look disingenuous

You can take your observations and you can kindly keep them to yourself instead of derailing this thread with them. Thank you.

 

[Damage3245]

The implications of this statement is that Kirin would be much faster than anything else
Including a Kid Kakashi that could react to naturally occuring lightning
And a 3T Itachi who could keep up in combat against a much stronger Kakashi

This is irrelevant.

Kid Kakashi does not have to be as fast as lightning in order to cut it with Raikiri; Kid Kakashi is not stated to be fast enough to evade lightning. It is not a counter in any way.

Zetsu is giving his assertion based off what he's seeing in real time
Kirin is not a naturally occuring lightning
The very fact that supernatural energy is in it's creation makes it open to being amped or nerfed
If you attribute the enormous energy for it's 2 billion+ amp in AP, why are you ruling out the possibility of said energy amping the speed
Iiirc @Arc7Kuroi mentioned something sciency earlier on how the KE is affected

Kirin is naturally occuring lightning. If you didn't get that from my breakdown of what Kirin is, then you're just not reading my post.

Lightning coming down from a cloud would move at the speed of lightning
Any bystander could have as well make that conclusion
In this case however, we see that this lightning or the clouds it's coming from are in no way your regular cloud
That alone faults the assertion of it just being just lightning

So you acknowledge that Kirin is lightning speed?

Nobody here is saying they lied
Zetsu is simply speaking from his PoV
Which is unreliable as he is only drawing his conclusion based off what he's seeing
"Oh cloud", "Oh the lightning from a cloud is this"
Same way you can predict the speed of lightning during a thunderstorm
He's not the jutsu creator nor was he involved when the jutsu was being invented
If the source was Orochimaru or Kabuto who apart from being sciency witnessed sasuke invent the jutsu, then you would have a point

The "liar" that I was referencing this case would be Kishimoto, who wrote Black Zetsu's thought bubbles.

Why would he mention the speed of lightning, if he intended for it to be the speed of light?

 

[Tomboy11]

You can take your observations and you can kindly keep them to yourself instead of derailing this thread with them. Thank you.

 

[Tomboy11]

This is irrelevant.

Kid Kakashi does not have to be as fast as lightning in order to cut it with Raikiri; Kid Kakashi is not stated to be fast enough to evade lightning. It is not a counter in any way.


Kirin is naturally occuring lightning. If you didn't get that from my breakdown of what Kirin is, then you're just not reading my post.


So you acknowledge that Kirin is lightning speed?


The "liar" that I was referencing this case would be Kishimoto, who wrote Black Zetsu's thought bubbles.

Why would he mention the speed of lightning, if he intended for it to be the speed of light?

Kishimoto is writing zetus as a character who is seeing an attack for the first time and is guessing
Didnt like 4 order people post scans on zetus not even knowing Kirin would use all the Energy in the clouds and was shocked
That it was a one time thing
As I said alot of refutation as been made to your stuff but have been skipped

It is not like any thing we say is gonna change your vote
As arc stated before let us stop repeating the same agruments over and over again
and Just wait for other admins

If we Keep talking and talking
Especially when it is like a 7 v 1
It would just be hard for the other to evaluate+ this is starting to feel way to personal and heated up even from my own part

Let's every body just rest

 

[Damage3245]

As arc stated before let us stop repeating the same agruments over and over again
and Just wait for other admins

Okay, that's fine with me.

 

[Tomboy11]

Before this gets glossed over
The implications of this statement is that Kirin would be much faster than anything else
Including a Kid Kakashi that could react to naturally occuring lightning
And a 3T Itachi who could keep up in combat against a much stronger Kakashi


Again
Zetsu is giving his assertion based off what he's seeing in real time
Kirin is not a naturally occuring lightning
The very fact that supernatural energy is in it's creation makes it open to being amped or nerfed
If you attribute the enormous energy for it's 2 billion+ amp in AP, why are you ruling out the possibility of said energy amping the speed
Iiirc @Arc7Kuroi mentioned something sciency earlier on how the KE is affected


Again
Not a naturally occuring "heaven"

Yeah
Lightning coming down from a cloud would move at the speed of lightning
Any bystander could have as well make that conclusion
In this case however, we see that this lightning or the clouds it's coming from are in no way your regular cloud
That alone faults the assertion of it just being just lightning


Nobody here is saying they lied
Zetsu is simply speaking from his PoV
Which is unreliable as he is only drawing his conclusion based off what he's seeing
"Oh cloud", "Oh the lightning from a cloud is this"
Same way you can predict the speed of lightning during a thunderstorm
He's not the jutsu creator nor was he involved when the jutsu was being invented
If the source was Orochimaru or Kabuto who apart from being sciency witnessed sasuke invent the jutsu, then you would have a point

Arc translated the raws and got lightning speed
I could've mentioned it earlier as a supporting arguement but you would've replied with "are you ware that lightning speed varies"

In conclusion
A. Zetsu is not the most reliable character in this context
B. Something moving at lightning speed prior to that point were nothing new
1. Raikiri's Lore
2. False Darkness(apart from the assumptions made for raiton, it's stated to be a lightning bolt)
3. Itachi's water bullet
4. Water guy's water pistol(can't remember his name rn)
The first 2 were actually dealt with with pure speed
C. Not 1 but 2 Jutsu guides which are WoG put kirin at LS
D. It's the shape of a freaking giraffe

This is your final conclusion
Then let it be the last thing
Before other admins come and give their votes

I feel all agruments has been addressed so
Let's every one cool down and just wait
If the other admin agree or don't agree / go with arc proposal which seems like the most neutral point

So this thread can Just end ( can't believe I came out from retirement to debate because of LS Kirin )

zues go nearly sware for me if I tell am I no dey debate again

 

[45Saef]

This is your final conclusion
Then let it be the last thing
Before other admins come and give their votes

I feel all agruments has been addressed so
Let's every one cool down and just wait
If the other admin agree or don't agree / go with arc proposal which seems like the most neutral point

So this thread can Just end ( can't believe I came out from retirement to debate because of LS Kirin )

zues go nearly sware for me if I tell am I no dey debate again

Funny enough, u go see say ur head Dey on top cross

 

[Tomboy11]

Funny enough, u go see say ur head Dey on top cross

Person wey just dey look for how we go debate Naruto Vs natus
I no go fall for e trap

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm neutral, I am not really sure. The manga I know is a primary canon while databook is secondary, but at the same time, the latter is more recent. But I think it should probably depend on the translation legitimacy. I have seen lightspeed translated inaccurately as "Lightning speed" for a different verse before. Likewise, I might have also heard of the opposite happening; lightning bolt speed being treated as lightspeed.

 

[Godernet]

I'm neutral, I am not really sure. The manga I know is a primary canon while databook is secondary, but at the same time, the latter is more recent. But I think it should probably depend on the translation legitimacy. I have seen lightspeed translated inaccurately as "Lightning speed" for a different verse before. Likewise, I might have also heard of the opposite happening; lightning bolt speed being treated as lightspeed.

We have gone over translation legitimacy if you would like to get a full idea of our current stance Arc has the best interpretation so far.

So I’m going to give my two cents regarding Kirin based on all the evidence presented. First let’s look at the facts, before diving into the more subjective interpretations.

The correct translation of the databook for Kirin states the following:

光速の一撃は回避不能であり、瞬きする間もなく敵を消し去る‼︎
The light speed strike is unavoidable, it blows away the opponent with no time to even blink!!

In Naruto Fanbook 2 it also states:

麒麟 (サスケ)
Kirin (Sasuke)
雷をも使役シ‼︎
Employing lightning as well!!
イタチを倒すために、サスケが生み出した究極の術。伝説の霊獣・麒麟を象った雷撃が、光速で相手に迫る様は圧巻の一言‼︎
For the sake of bringing down Itachi, Sasuke created this ultimate technique. Being struck by lightning taking the form of the legendary sacred beast Kirin, approaching the opponent at light speed it's superb!!

And lastly we all know Zetsu says this:

Which is why it cannot be evaded… The speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second…

Lastly, Zetsu indicates that all of the cloud’s energy is utilized in created the Kirin lightning bolt. Which is supported by the cloud dissipating after Kirin is used.

When evaluating the opposing side’s interpretation, we have that Kirin being called natural lightning and Zetsu saying lightning travels from the sky to the ground in 0.001s indicates that Kirin is lightning speed.

Now I don’t think this interpretation is objectively wrong, it’s where I get my sub-rel Kirin speed calc from, I don’t think it is inherently superior to the following interpretation.

Kirin is stated twice to be light speed in 2 separate databooks/fanbooks. Kirin utilizes all of the cloud’s energy in one single bolt of lightning,
meaning it’d have a far greater amount of kinetic energy than your average lightning bolt. Considering no irl/normal lightning uses all of the cloud’s energy in a single strike, Kirin should far surpass the KE of any lightning bolt seen normally in nature, and thus it being faster than any normal lightning is sensible and not contradicted by the Jutsu mechanics. Furthermore, when Zetsu speaks, he speaks broadly about lightning. He has never seen the Kirin jutsu and thus when he sees a storm cloud, realizing Sasuke tamed lightning, he has no reason to assume the Jutsu would use all of the cloud’s energy to produce one bolt. Meaning that Zetsu’s comment is referring to your average lightning bolt. In which case his comment about the speed of lightning isn’t wrong, it just means that the assumption of Kirin being normal lightning was wrong. Then regarding Kirin being natural, that just means it comes from nature, which it does. Sasuke took that lightning from a storm cloud. But being natural =/= being normal. Also, Zetsu saying “it’s impossible to evade” is asinine considering people evade lightning speed lightning style jutsu all the time and Zetsu has witnessed a prime Kaguya (who would be far above Naruto) fight and that caliber of character can evade light speed attacks. So the notion that lightning speed is impossible to dodge is just wrong.

Considering we have two descriptive narrator statements of Kirin being light speed, and the Zetsu statement does not inherently mean Kirin is lightning speed, as my interpretation indicates, I believe my interpretation is most consistent with the information we have. I also don’t believe the light speed statements are hyperbolic, given two separate sources reiterate the same thing, and I don’t want to debate semantics. However, I can understand the skepticism, especially regarding consistency. Although tmk no one scales to Kirin outside of Itachi’s perception/reaction speeds, which doesn’t inherently mean his movement speed scales. For those reasons I believe that Kirin should be “MHS+, likely SoL”. Given we have due evidence to suggest it can be the speed of light, although it’s not exactly 100% objective.