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Lucifer, Dream, and Michael downgrade

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I think that Deagonx and LuciferDC099 seem to make much better sense here, and that this argument will not lead anywhere, so we should preferably close this thread as quickly as possible.

Also, we will hopefully be able to apply a split cosmology for DC Comics eventually, which will downgrade these characters, but for the moment they scale from the composite version that stacks all cosmologies on top of each other, so this kind of downgrade is not reasonable at all on that basis.
 
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Also, in what manners are Transcending and Beyond_transcending arguing in bad faith here, Deagonx?
 
Antvasima said:
Also, in what manners are Transcending and Beyond_transcending arguing in bad faith here, Deagonx?
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If you guys are please don't make Yahweh and Divine Presence different tiers. They’re the same just one of them is the form of the Creator making shape and the other is just his boundless state.

We see this analogy during Lucifer #75 with The story of Buddha and the Monkey King. He was notion as the Void, it was made explicitly clear during that whole issue. Of course after the split, whenever that is.
 
Antvasima said:
Also, in what manners are Transcending and Beyond_transcending arguing in bad faith here, Deagonx?
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The bad faith aspect of it is that the discussion cannot make any headway because they are constantly contesting even the most basic information and straight-forward scans by proposing very counter-intuitive and far-fetched interpretations, purely out of contrarianism, and demanding that the intuitive interpretation is proven to an exhaustive degree. This has been happening with almost every single piece of information discussed in the thread.

Now, it is one thing to have a difference in opinion, and to want there to be some supporting evidence or clear reasoning on an ambiguous scan, but that's not what I'm referring to here, I'm almost always more than happy to explain my reasoning and cite my sources. But there needs to be an element of reasonability, not dogmatic skepticism of every piece of information that contradicts the CRT. Even Lucifer has expressed this frustration in the thread:

LuciferDC099 said:
It's insane that some people can't understand something that obvious.
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LuciferDC099 said:
Yeah, just read my posts again. I won't explain it anymore since i'm tired of writing the same things again. It seems like you have problems with reading.
Click to expand...

It's become an extremely tiresome conversation because they refuse to concede to even the most basic and obvious facts and interpretations of DC. Like the fact that the Presence/Source task Supercelestials with creating multiverses, and they act according to it's judgment and will, so he scales above the Supercelestials and probably created them. He argued that the supercelestials probably created themselves, and just because they do the bidding of the Source doesn't mean the Source is stronger than them or scales to them, because humans can hire bodyguards. As if it makes any sense that a race of Multiverse-creating supercelestial beings would do the bidding of a deity who was weaker than them and didn't create them. Especially given how often that bidding is directly intended to result in their deaths.

Like, that's such low-effort nonsense it borders on trolling, but every single piece of information is contested in an equally contrarian and nonsensical way, and when I decided I was tired of proving basic information to a tedious degree, they started claiming I had no evidence and that my complaints were that they asked for evidence.

It's just not worth the effort. Lucifer abandoned ship for the same reason after thoroughly proving his point, but still having tiresome illogical objections being piled onto every piece of information he provided.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that Deagonx and LuciferDC099 seem to make much better sense here, and that this argument will not lead anywhere, so we should preferably close this thread as quickly as possible.

Also, we will hopefully be able to apply a split cosmology for DC Comics eventually, which will downgrade these characters, but for the moment they scale from the composite version that stacks all cosmologies on top of each other, so this kind of downgrade is not reasonable at all on that basis.
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Actually this argument has evolved pretty well. There are multiple people in the thread who disagree with Deagonx and Lucifer’s arguments. In this type of scenario, it makes much more sense to call in other staff for their input rather than just closing the thread because you personally see it as an inconvenience.

Also the whole point of what Transcending is proposing is the idea that even under composite cosmology the justifications for Lucifer, Michael, and Dream being 1-A don’t hold up. So the second part of your comment doesn’t make any sense and kind of makes me believe that you didn’t read the thread and don’t understand what’s going on.
 
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Deagonx said:
It's become an extremely tiresome conversation because they refuse to concede to even the most basic and obvious facts and interpretations of DC. Like the fact that the Presence/Source task Supercelestials with creating multiverses, and they act according to it's judgment and will, so he scales above the Supercelestials and probably created them. He argued that the supercelestials probably created themselves, and just because they do the bidding of the Source doesn't mean the Source is stronger than them or scales to them, because humans can hire bodyguards. As if it makes any sense that a race of Multiverse-creating supercelestial beings would do the bidding of a deity who was weaker than them and didn't create them. Especially given how often that bidding is directly intended to result in their deaths.
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Expect there's no evidence that Source created Supercelestials. You assumed that Source created them because they work for Source, an assumption isn't a fact. You haven't explained how human logic doesn't apply to higher beings... Living Tribunal from Marvel can judge Oblivion, but he's not as powerful.
Deagonx said:
Like, that's such low-effort nonsense it borders on trolling, but every single piece of information is contested in an equally contrarian and nonsensical way, and when I decided I was tired of proving basic information to a tedious degree, they started claiming I had no evidence and that my complaints were that they asked for evidence.
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What "piece of evidence"? We asked you for proof for Presence creating highest Source Wall, you didn't give evidence.
Deagonx said:
It's just not worth the effort. Lucifer abandoned ship for the same reason after thoroughly proving his point, but still having tiresome illogical objections being piled onto every piece of information he provided.
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Appeal to Ridicule.
 
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Beyond_transcending said:
Expect there's no evidence that Source created Supercelestials. You assumed that Source created them because they work for Source, an assumption isn't a fact. You haven't explained how human logic doesn't apply to higher beings.
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This is exactly the kind of nonsense I'm talking about.

It was directly stated that Perpetua was supposed to die and let her energy return to the Source. If her death causes her energy to return to the Source, that means her life energy comes from the Source.

670l0AZ.jpeg


The Supercelestials work for the Source. They abide by its will and judgment. It gives them the materials and energy needed to make multiverses and then they're supposed to die. None of this makes any sense in the context of a race of beings who "created themselves" and who are more powerful than the Source.

This is bad faith arguing because it's so painfully obvious that it shouldn't even require a discussion. And I am refusing to deal with it because every single obvious thing is turning into a pointless argument by someone who refuses to admit when they're clearly wrong.


Beyond_transcending said:
What "piece of evidence"? We asked you for proof for Presence creating highest Source Wall, you didn't give evidence.
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We gave proof that the Source Wall was part of the Presence's creation and that the entire multiversity map is recorded in Destiny's book which covers the Presence's creation.

Instead of accepting the evidence, you pretended we are in some bizarro universe where there's a "true" Source Wall and I need to prove "the Source Wall" is the Source Wall.

It's tedious nonsense that is barely worth acknowledging.


Beyond_transcending said:
Argument from Ridicule
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The fact that you still think naming fallacies you read on Wikipedia is a good way to argue is really silly.
 
Deagonx said:
It was directly stated that Perpetua was supposed to die and let her energy return to the Source. If her death causes her energy to return to the Source, that means her life energy comes from the Source.
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It says her energy returns to the Source. Where does it say her “life energy”? You literally just added that on when the scan doesn’t mention such a thing.
 
Xearsay said:
Where does it say “life energy.” You literally just added that on when the scan doesn’t mention such a thing.
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I never said it says "life energy" on the scan. I said "that means" because I am drawing the obvious conclusion from the evidence. The energy returns to the Source when she dies. That means the energy is her life energy. Otherwise why would her death be needed to return it?
 
Xearsay said:
The Presences creation having a source wall
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There's only one Source Wall. This is the kind of nonsense I'm talking about.

You are performing desperate mental gymnastics because the evidence is obviously and directly against you.
 
Deagonx said:
The energy returns to the Source when she dies. That means the energy is her life energy.
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Why would “energies” returning to the Source after Perpetua dies necessitate that the type of energies are her life energy. It could be literally be the energies she used to create the Multiverse. Which is actually most likely what it is referring to, as they say “energies” and not a single energy.
 
Xearsay said:
Why would “energies” returning to the Source after Perpetua dies conclude that the type of energies are her life energy?
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Why are you asking me a question that is literally answered in the comment you are replying to?
 
Xearsay said:
These super celestials die and give their lives to the baby multiverse they created. So it doesn’t make any sense to assume the energies that go back to the Source is their life energy
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It makes perfect sense. Why are you interpreting "give their lives to the baby multiverse" as referring to life energy? The energy for the multiverse was the connective energy they were given by the Source. So the only energy that could be returning to the Source is their life energy.

This is what I mean. What an incredibly boring slog of a discussion where the obvious meaning of a scan is desperately avoided in favor of increasingly far fetched guesswork so that a character can be downplayed. The Source is obviously scales above the Supercelestials. All these mental gymnastics to pretend that isn't the case won't change that.

Robo said:
Xearsay gonna get slapped by Deagon the 5000th time
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They literally never learn.
 
Deagonx said:
Why are you interpreting "give their lives to the baby multiverse" as referring to life energy? The energy for the multiverse was the connective energy they were given by the Source.
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Because the scan states these Super Celestials die and “give themselves” to the baby Multiverse. And whatever life energy that composes them would be part of their being that they’re giving to the baby Multiverse.
 
Xearsay said:
Because the scan states these Super Celestials “give themselves” to the baby Multiverse. And whatever life energy that composes them would be a part themselves.
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No, that theory contradicts what we know from the other scan. This scan says they "birth a reality and then die. Giving themselves to the baby multiverse." As in, they literally give up their lives in the process of creating the multiverse. There's no mention of "energy" in the part about them dying.

The other scan tells us where their life energy goes, because once they die their energies return to the Source where it came from. We know this isn't the connective energy for the multiverse, because the multiverse has already been created.

Again, all these mental gymnastics just to pretend the Source doesn't scale above the Super Celestials.
 
Deagonx said:
No, that theory contradicts what we know from the other scan. This scan says they "birth a reality and then die. Giving themselves to the baby multiverse." As in, they literally give up their lives in the process of creating the multiverse. There's no mention of "energy" in the part about them dying.
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It’s not a theory and it doesn’t contradict anything. It also doesn’t need to explicitly mention the word energy. As we’re just talking about something that constitutes someone. So the idea that they “give themselves” to the baby Multiverse would already include their life energy.
 
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