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Deltarune Kris, Susie, Ralsei as chapter 1 selves and Jevil upgrade
- Thread starter Golden_Jevil
- Start date
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so far it could be either popularity (jevil has never been particularly popular) or freedom (jevil is literally locked in a cage)
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how would [the smooth taste of] neo help spamton get more popular, anyways?
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Being more free could mean not just knowing how the world works, but escaping the world. He talked about surpassing Jevil BEFORE he became Spamton Neo, & after that, he was talking about Heaven & such.
So perhaps Spamton wanted to surpass Jevil in freedom by using the knowledge to leave the world, or "ascend" to whatever he thought the Light World was. He was obsessed with something strongly implied to be the creation of a Lightner.
Popularity/Success is because Jevil was working in the Royal Court, presumably for the monarchs, whereas Spamton just got to live in a place royalty lived (Queen's Mansion.) while he did his job, & even that fell apart before he talks to Kris about surpassing "that clown".
What's the dialogue & context for this, please?
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if spamton really wanted to leave the world and look into heaven why didn't he just kill himself
i fail to see how becoming a giant robot would help him get to the light world
also, jevil has never been particularly free. you could argue that jevil knows about...something, but spamton seems to know about it as well. plus he isn't locked in prison
again, how would becoming a giant robot help him become successful? is he gonna get a new job in the royal court by possessing mettaton's dream body? i kind of doubt that's gonna happen.
what exactly are you asking me for?
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Ironic that for someone arguing we should take vague implications as facts, you're interpreting the Heaven thing very literally.
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i mentioned both interpretations
if he's talking about actual heaven, neo isn't gonna help
if he's talking about the light world, neo isn't gonna help
if he's talking about actual heaven, neo isn't gonna help
if he's talking about the light world, neo isn't gonna help
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We already know why he wanted to become NEO, that part wasn't vague.
He wanted freedom, whatever that means in this context.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's something sort of abstract, since this franchise has already done that with a lot of things like LOVE and DETERMINATION.
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Heaven may not have been a literal afterlife. It may be euphemistic. Keep in mind there's the prophecy. The heroes must "banish the Angel's Heaven"; It wouldn't surprise me if Heaven has a double meaning.
Spamton, in his insanity, & being misguided by his caller, probably thought more power would help him become more free. He reacts with elation when he "realizes" Kris & co. have been cutting his strings so he can be free.
& if he wasn't seeking power for the sake of freedom, then why would taking a SOUL or a Lightner's Creation be any better.
Odds are, he was obsessed with the Lightner's Creation, that robot thing or whatever, because he knew the confines of his world, & wanted to escape them. & knowing Lightners seem to lack those limitations, he became obsessed with a Lightner's creation, & wanted a Lightner's SOUL.
Jevil isn't free in the physical sense, but he claims he's free & everyone else isn't. He acts very knowledgeable, & he says everyone else isn't free. He gives off the vibe that he knows things, & does seem to. Like how he was so sure Kris & co. would encounter stronger, faster enemies in the future.
& Jevil might not be free, physically, but he says "he can do anything". He's more free, & more able to do what he wants, knowing the boundaries of his world, but he knows he's still stuck, whether he can leave his cage or not.
In SnowGrave, Spamton acts like he's taken over the city. He's taken over her mansion. Odds are, his intents were similar with his new power. Perhaps he thought he just needed to retake the city to get his caller back. Or just to get his job in the Mansion back.
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it honestly just sounds like spamton wanted to get as close to the light world as possible, so he went after things he associated with lightners. how is jevil any closer to the light world than spamton is, though?
isn't spamton aware of the same stuff that jevil is
that has nothing to do with him "surpassing" jevil though
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Spamton wanted to surpass Jevil, by getting closer to the Light World. In that sense, he got closer.... After achieving Spamton Neo & saying he wanted to surpass "that clown around town".
Jevil could be considered closer to the Light World because he understood the nature of the world he & other Darkners lived in; If it's "false", then by rejecting it, he's closer to the Light World, sort of.
Basis?
If he wants to surpass Jevil in terms of success or recognition or such, then taking over the Queen's Mansion, when Jevil was once the Court Jester seems like a big step towards that.
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other darkners also seem to know that their world is "false", for example ralsei talks about the light world and acknowledges that all of the darkners are just some pieces of junk
no clue lol i've just heard about it
i kind of assumed it was something in the game that i missed
if he wanted to say he was gonna surpass someone popular, why didn't he mention the king or queen
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Nonetheless, emphasis seems to be placed on Jevil knowing things not typically known.
King was an aggressive tyrant who barely interacted with his citizens, & Queen claims he slept on his throne all day. Doesn't seem popular.
Spamton might not really like Queen; Her mansion was where he used to work before his fall from grace, but now she, or at least, her Swatchlings, were keeping him from the one thing he wanted, the object of his obsession. He barely interacts with her.
Not to mention, it's implied that Queen is kind of insane since seeing The Knight creating The Fountain, & Sweet Cap'n Cakes act a bit unnerved about her. Plus, IIRC, the Darkners in Chapter 2 seem more mixed about Queen.
Jevil is/was a high status entertainer, so he might have been more liked.
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Tbf via being that castle king he would still be popular logically
Especially considering how his people react if you fight him in a non pacifist route
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Eh, a King doesn't have to be popular to stay in power; It's a monarchy. & him being overthrown was in part because the Lightners helped drive the Darkners into action.
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didn't everybody just think he was insane
jevil knows stuff that other people don't but that just makes him sound completely crazy to them, he's essentially what a conspiracy theorist thinks about themselves
jevil went insane and wrought havoc on the kingdom before getting locked up. doesn't seem popular
spamton clearly doesn't like jevil either, as he refers to him as "that damned clown around town"
she still has a bunch of subjects and servants, better than anything jevil ever had
conjecture
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Yes, but Spamton may have given it different consideration than others did. Both of them have themes about freedom in the game.
"Wrought havoc on the Kingdom" may be a disingenuous way to describe it.
- He... was a funny little man. Once, the court jester. I, the court magician.
- A friend...? Could I consider him a friend...? Perhaps, perhaps not.
- But he was the only one who matched me in the games we used to play.
- One day, he met a strange someone... and since then, he began to change.
- He started saying bizarre things that didn't completely make sense -
- But didn't completely not make sense, either.
- Soon, he began to see the world as a game, and everyone as its participants.
- As the court mage, and his only companion, I was forced to lock him away...
- Or, rather, lock US all away, in his own words.
- Since that time, the strange words he's said have stuck inside my cotton...
- And my view of this world has become darker, yet darker.
- Reflecting on these old memories, I think, perhaps - I miss playing games with him.
- And I wonder, if I hadn't been asked to lock him up...
- Would I have found a little more purpose in my life...?
Yes, but you don't have to like someone to envy them, & if he's lost track of Jevil's position, seeing as it's like a position he was in before his fall from grace....
She does, but the fact remains Spamton NEVER talks about her, unlike Jevil, reception of her by the citizens is mixed, & she & her staff are more obstacles to Spamton getting to the Lightner Creation.
& you don't need to be popular to get servants; It could just be because she's powerful. & even if they genuinely are loyal to Queen, that doesn't mean Spamton is aware of it to be envious of; His time in Queen's Mansion was spent making calls & obsessively praying to a machine.
Which part? That a Royal Court Jester is high-status, or that they'd be liked?
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this is starting to become a stretch
based on what we actually saw, jevil is malicious and dangerous. that's probably why he was imprisoned.
same goes for queen
i don't think he'd care. spamton's main goal is to call his own shots. when he forcibly took over the city, that was good enough for him. i don't think it really matters to him if he's well liked.
i think spamton would notice what was happening in the place where he lived lol, he spent a lot of time doing that stuff but it's not like he would only be doing that
second part
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How do you mean?
But what inspired those actions? Presumably, it was the knowledge Jevil gained from interacting with the mysterious stranger.
Yes but again, Spamton never interacts with Queen. He never mentions her.
He does mention Jevil, at least indirectly.
I said what you're replying to to explain that Queen having Swatchlings doesn't necessarily mean she's liked by the whole populace when her Swatchlings are her servants, especially if Queen is stronger than them.
(Also, don't Swatchlings deal with Spamton in off-screen story?)
Being liked is important for a salesman, & when making his "deal" with Kris in battle, he tells them he can't force them, implying he values their consent.
& he wants calls. He especially wants his caller back. So being liked might tie into that.
But perhaps Spamton doesn't care about being liked/popular. But he certainly wasn't seeking power for power's sake, he was seeking it for freedom's sakes; Even after becoming Spamton Neo, he's still focused on freedom.
Except he was described as spending all of his time on the phone, & obsessively praying to the machine; That's not the behaviour of someone who pays attention to other stuff much at all.
GodlyCharmander
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You deliberately excluded the last part.
"The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly"
50% is a mild chance. Your statement is far from being reliable.
The first part is present in the likely chance as well.
You said it yourself.
There is a perfectly plausible chance of being someone else, but it's likely Jevil. But on top of that, we have Spamton's lines being completely unreliable most of the times.
And, as stated above, the term "Surpassing" does NOT mean power necessarily, so your argument is not based off something debatable, it's not worthy of any rating on AP.
GodlyCharmander
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Also, stop with the stupid walls of text. The argument is far too vague for us to use, and one CANNOT prove "surpassing" means power (or that it's meaning is more likely than the others), nor can one cannot give us a reason to trust a mentality unstable character's lines in the first place.
GodlyCharmander
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It's not an explosion and it doesn't hit the ground, otherwise Kris would've taken damage. They don't.
If you want to argue Kris can just tank it, this would make it inferior to the calculated explosions from earlier.
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Fair enough i was thinking an similar situation to big spamton neo explosion
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50% is, like, the maximum for "mild". anything higher than 50% would get a "likely" rating. i'd argue that something like a 25% chance would also count as "notable, but mild."
GodlyCharmander
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Not really. But this is just derailing.
The proposal is not reliable in the first place.
Deleted member 16409
Guest
If you restrict Jevil chaos scythe Explosion..
So, what if you take his "beams" from fallen scythe as an explosion and do same with giant one and add "possibly" or "potential"?
Or maybe if you take even giant one, just plus every result and make it feat?
So, what if you take his "beams" from fallen scythe as an explosion and do same with giant one and add "possibly" or "potential"?
Or maybe if you take even giant one, just plus every result and make it feat?
GodlyCharmander
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We aren't doing that
We already do that.
The giant one never exploded
He did that with multiple attacks, not one.
Deleted member 16409
Guest
Ok guys.
Now you can screw it all up and down.
Spamton did meet Jevil and fought him.
He fought him A LOT and always lose.
If he even theoretically cheated then he will still lose.
Now you can screw it all up and down.
Spamton did meet Jevil and fought him.
He fought him A LOT and always lose.
If he even theoretically cheated then he will still lose.
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what
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The Tweet from Fangamer for the Q&A for the Sweepstakes for context:
On 1 hand, Jevil introduces his battle with The Delta Warriors as a simple numbers game where "if your HP hits 0, you lose".
On the other hand....
Spamton says theoretically, so he may not have cheated at all, & may be saying it as a form of hyperbole, to emphasize how unfair he thinks it is.
Also, considering Jevil is a Jester & the card motif, there's a small possibility the games weren't fights.
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i don't see how spamton neo would allow him to surpass jevil in anything other than a fight
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But the Tweet doesn't mention Spamton Neo.
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when he talks about becoming neo he says "i'll even surpass that clown around town", seemingly referring to jevil. the tweet confirms this.
GodlyCharmander
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"Freedom". Or what Spamton considers Freedom. He is mentally ill, so I wouldn't really try and understand it.
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IIRC, it was deemed unclear what he meant by "surpass". As said, he's insane, & he could've meant in freedom, popularity, success, etc. just as much as power, especially given his reasons for wanting a SOUL.
To his credit, if we assume the only kind of "game" Jevil plays is the "your HP number goes to 0, you lose" (As Jevil describes it.) game, it might make sense Spamton was talking about fighting.
But Spamton also says "games, games, games", implying Spamton thinks Jevil fixates on playing only a great quantity &/or a great variety of games. I'm not sure if he means quantity or variety of games.
There's also the fact that in that same Twitter post where Spamton talks about games with Jevil & never winning, Spamton also ends the message with a phrase that seems to specifically reference an old post/meme on Tumblr meant for sending to your ex; If we're to take that Tweet like that, fighting, presumably to the near-death would be strange behaviour for soon-to-be "exes", of whatever kind we're to believe they are, as opposed to the "games" not being fights but maybe card games or such, giving Jevil's motif?
Arguably, another Tweet implies this sentiment, with Spamton seeming to imply Jevil with resentment. (Source)
Though, to be frank, I find that a little astonishing & strange.
Deleted member 16409
Guest
Yeah.
That's small possibility.
But it won't be known until Seam Shopkeeper would tell us WHAT that games was because Seam was only one who could match Jevil in that game.
And Seam suprises when we say to him that we WON, we WON his game.
His games usually are fights, maybe not to death because HP = 0 doesn't mean death here.
Deleted member 16409
Guest
Btw I dropped this argument about Q&A Sweeptakes because someone told that clown is not Jevil and is prob not even him, so I just dropped this to make sure that he actually talking about Jevil.
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