Rule Violation Reports (New forum)

[Moritzva]

Also, for all the people who don't seem to get it, Social Influencing is the most overrated and overhyped ability on the wiki. You don't 'resist' social influencing, it's literally just the ability to talk well.

inb4 "but what about (x) character?" Make a thread on Social Influencing, the ability is suspect anyways. That's not the issue, BigSmoke has watched Better Call Saul and knows full well that Saul doesn't have magical or supernatural charisma hax, he's just a really good lawyer.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

is it against the rules to have bad common sense

 

[ImmortalDread]

The rule doesn't, and this is a heavy repeat offender violating basic common sense. Not to mention the problems with the CRT (adding an unapproved calc to an OP without noting such) that is further in bad faith.

As said earlier, it's nothing severe, but given BigSmoke's history and how it would only take the tiniest bit of common sense to avoid placing the funny Better Call Saul guy against Goku, keeping him from creating versus threads at a minimum seems more than reasonable.

Which rule are we talking about? Is “common sense” not a subjective term somewhat? And having bad common sense is violable?
You are adding his past violations and making them relevant to this one. Seems unfair to the user. His past has nothing to do with this thread. I may understand his behavior after he opened a new one because the first one was closed without giving any apparent reason or rule violation.
The match was showing incon rather than a real stomp; if you had arguments about this matter, it was better to drop them there and discuss them with others.
I don't know the user personally, neither defending his side much. But I am curious which rule he violated according to the wiki? Agnaa mentioned the rule is old and needs to be changed. Are there any rules? If they are, mind quoting them?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/sba-state-of-mind-minor-reword.141839/ ~ the minor rewording is now in appeal. The user did not break any rules or used the rule as an unfair argument.

 

[Agnaa]

After having the actual social influencing feat explained to me, I find it hard to believe that BigSmoke didn't realise how useless it would be for a match like this. While other people in the thread just reading the arguments (such as myself) could've been legitimately convinced by the vague descriptions.

For context, the feat was Saul convincing a dude to break some kids' legs instead of killing them.

If Saul actually applied that to the fight against Goku, he would have his legs broken, which seems like it'd reasonably enough count as an incap loss, due to being incapable of properly fighting after that.

Either BigSmoke lacks common sense to the point where he thinks Saul having his legs broken and Goku being content with that would count as an "inconclusive" result, or he was misrepresenting things.

For a lapse in common sense that egregious, I don't think he could be trusted to make other BCS/BB threads. I wouldn't even be against the topic ban spreading wider than that.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

The rule doesn't, and this is a heavy repeat offender violating basic common sense.

i haven't broken rules for like two years, let it go

you're bringing up cool cat bro i havent done that shit in years

Not to mention the problems with the CRT (adding an unapproved calc to an OP without noting such) that is further in bad faith.

nah, it wasn't in bad faith. you can't assume that. anyone could've gone on there and noticed that it wasn't accepted. i put it on there so that it could be seen and evaluated.

As said earlier, it's nothing severe, but given BigSmoke's history and how it would only take the tiniest bit of common sense to avoid placing the funny Better Call Saul guy against Goku, keeping him from creating versus threads at a minimum seems more than reasonable.

i didn't do anything

this hurts absolutely no one. it breaks zero rules. if anything, you were abusing permissions by closing valid threads for no reason aside from your made-up definition of "common sense". since when did the ******* vs community follow common sense? i'm sorry if you were harmed by my lack of common sense, but i fail to see any issues here. if you disagreed with me, you could've debated on the thread. but instead you closed it on sight and ran off to report me when your stance was even slightly challenged.

what purpose does this serve in the first place? how does this improve the wiki? how does it allow any of the other users to have a better experience here? it doesn't. you are wasting everyone's time just so that you can degrade the experience of one guy.

BigSmoke has watched Better Call Saul and knows full well that Saul doesn't have magical or supernatural charisma hax, he's just a really good lawyer.

i never said he did. i said he can convince people not to kill him. he's done it before. it's reasonable to assume he can do it again. other people agreed with me, and i don't see them getting reported for crimes against common sense.

After having the actual social influencing feat explained to me, I find it hard to believe that BigSmoke didn't realise how useless it would be for a match like this. While other people in the thread just reading the arguments (such as myself) could've been legitimately convinced by the vague descriptions.

For context, the feat was Saul convincing a dude to break some kids' legs instead of killing them.

that "dude" was a violent and insane meth addict who once beat his own friend to death for a extremely minor perceived insult.

 

[Moritzva]

The "violent meth addict" also wasn't trying to kill Saul, while Goku would be. Similarly, Saul actually had some basic knowledge of Tuco's character, goals, and values, which he wouldn't have with Goku.

Not to mention, when Saul was legitimately held up in the desert and was about to be killed, he had absolutely no way to talk the assassins out of killing him. Clearly, Saul is not capable of talking people down from killing him, specifically, with ease and without context. While other users may not know that, you should, as you actually watched the show.

 

[Therefir]

Resistance to Social Influence

I've seen it all, not only is it a ridiculous statement since this "ability" in many quotes is just about being charismatic, but also said character has neither the feats nor the intelligence to be able to convince Goku to stop fighting before being turned to ashes in the first 2 seconds of the fight.

It shouldn't even be an ability to begin with, it should be on the intelligence section, but that's another issue.

For once I agree that a topic ban for BigSmoke would be enough to stop the creation of these ridiculous fights, I find it hard to believe that there are more people who thought this was a good idea when to begin with.

As for the characters themselves, their profiles seem to be in bad shape and poorly rated, so I'll take them to the profile deletion thread and see if they need to be deleted outright.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

The "violent meth addict" also wasn't trying to kill Saul

he did, saul talked him out of it

Similarly, Saul actually had some basic knowledge of Tuco's character, goals, and values, which he wouldn't have with Goku.

in terms of his personality, goku makes tuco look like the nicest guy on earth. saul has prior knowledge on goku's appearance, and would therefore deduce that he is a martial artist.

Not to mention, when Saul was legitimately held up in the desert and was about to be killed, he had absolutely no way to talk the assassins out of killing him.

before they took him out into the desert, saul actually convinced tuco to let him go. one of the twins messed it up, resulting in all of them nearly being killed.

While other users may not know that, you should, as you actually watched the show.

neko and girronki have both seen the show.

 

[Moritzva]

I have to sleep, so I can’t go back and forth on how Tuco really didn’t care about Saul all that much and only wanted to kill the two kills, but I do have to mention how… that’s not the same scene. I’m talking about the other scene, with Lalo’s money.

And let’s not also mention the other Lalo scene, where Saul’s “social influencing” meant nothing.

There’s not a single example of Saul doing anything close to talking Goku down in the 2 seconds he has before being immediately blasted into oblivion, even assuming he attempts to lead with it despite SBA. The one most similar scenario with unknown Colombian gang member getting ready to execute him ended with Mike saving him, as Saul would’ve absolutely died otherwise.

(This is most similar because Goku and an unknown Colombian gang member would both be complete foreign enemies to Saul that he would have no info on and no time to mentally prepare for, and both would have the sole goal of killing him. Saul failed to convince the Colombians, he’d fail to convince Goku.)

You should know this.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

For once I agree that a topic ban for BigSmoke would be enough to stop the creation of these ridiculous fights, I find it hard to believe that there are more people who thought this was a good idea when to begin with.

What? One mildly amusing dumb thread, and suddenly I'm Charles Manson?!?

stop bringing up incidents from years ago to paint me as a repeat offender. i made one stomp match.

As for the characters themselves, their profiles seem to be in bad shape and poorly rated, so I'll take them to the profile deletion thread and see if they need to be deleted outright.

or you could just have the most recent crt reverted. you can argue about it here.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

I have to sleep, so I can’t go back and forth on how Tuco really didn’t care about Saul all that much and only wanted to kill the two kills, but I do have to mention how… that’s not the same scene. I’m talking about the other scene, with Lalo’s money.

goku is not lalo. lalo chopped a guy's leg off and bludgeoned an innocent person to death. goku does not do that.

The one most similar scenario with unknown man getting ready to execute him ended with Mike saving him, as Saul would’ve absolutely died otherwise.

the unknown man didn't speak english, so

You should know this.

maybe i should. so what? being dumb does not warrant punishment. you are trying to permanently take away my permissions because i was wrong on a vs thread. i'm sorry, but this is absurd.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

(This is most similar because Goku and an unknown Colombian gang member would both be complete foreign enemies to Saul that he would have no info on and no time to mentally prepare for, and both would have the sole goal of killing him. Saul failed to convince the Colombians, he’d fail to convince Goku.)

the columbians did not speak the same language as saul, and were much more willing to kill innocent people than goku is.

whether or not i was right on the thread doesn't matter, though. this is not a vs thread. we are not here to argue about vs debates. my main issue is that there is no reason for me to be punished for this.

 

[Agnaa]

If you don't know all the reasons that Goku vs Saul would be unworkable (Goku being able to nuke Saul from 4km away as soon as the match starts, dearth of information on Goku's motivations and no way to stall for time to discover them, Goku being able to power up and speed blitz, Saul's convincing taking time that he doesn't have, Saul's convincing having worked in limited situations and still resulted in bodily harm coming to the people involved to the extent of probably being ruled an incap loss, Saul's convincing having numerous anti-feats), despite knowing one of the verses involved well, then you can't really be trusted to make reasonable matches involving that verse.

 

[Damage3245]

If you don't know all the reasons that Goku vs Saul would be unworkable (Goku being able to nuke Saul from 4km away as soon as the match starts, dearth of information on Goku's motivations and no way to stall for time to discover them, Goku being able to power up and speed blitz, Saul's convincing taking time that he doesn't have, Saul's convincing having worked in limited situations and still resulted in bodily harm coming to the people involved to the extent that an incap loss, Saul's convincing having numerous anti-feats), despite knowing one of the verses involved well, then you can't really be trusted to make reasonable matches involving that verse.

I have to agree with Agnaa on this.

 

[Armorchompy]

SBA isn't "willing to kill" by default anymore boys, read up on the new rulings, it was changed a few months ago. You can very well argue that in character Goku would just take the time to listen to Saul. Regardless, a memey fight isn't grounds for punishment especially when it's not a blatant spite match, which this wasn't meant to be.

And you can't really topic ban someone for CRTs that were accepted, no matter how ... well, disagreeable they are. In fact you absolutely shouldn't topic ban someone for making wrong or even misinformed/poorly laid out CRTs either.

 

[Agnaa]

It's not "willing to kill", but it is "willing to win". Would Goku, when trying to win, really just not power up, slowly walk up to the opponent, and have a conversation with them?

From a quick glance at his matches, I think a fair few would need to be redone if casually walking up is how he'd open matches.

 

[Armorchompy]

He also sees Saul as just a random human who's trying to kill him, and I really don't think Goku would instagib some random human just because he wants him dead.

Not that it really matters, the fact that we're having this debate shows that the match is not an obvious stomp, I don't care what the result is.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

It's not "willing to kill", but it is "willing to win". Would Goku, when trying to win, really just not power up, slowly walk up to the opponent, and have a conversation with them?

speed was equal, so saul would probably immediately start blubbering before goku could get to him. the fight took place in freddy fazbear's pizzaria, so they would've been close enough to talk.

 

[ImmortalDread]

He also sees Saul as just a random human who's trying to kill him, and I really don't think Goku would instagib some random human just because he wants him dead.

Not that it really matters, the fact that we're having this debate shows that the match is not an obvious stomp, I don't care what the result is.

I agreed, simply banning topic the person, and we are still arguing if it is really obvious stomp or not, does not sit with me.
I am still asking myself which rules he violated against wiki rules. None has been mentioned so far.

 

[Therefir]

You can very well argue that in character Goku would just take the time to listen to Saul. Regardless, a memey fight isn't grounds for punishment especially when it's not a blatant spite match, which this wasn't meant to be.

Yeah, no, this doesn't makes sense, Goku would need to be close to even be able to listen Saul, and by the time he gets closer he is already prepared to finish the fight, it won't even give Saul time to say something meaningful.

And that's assuming Goku doesn't just throw an energy ball from kilometers away.

 

[Agnaa]

@Dread

Regular members aren't allowed to post in this Rule Violation Reports thread, unless they are making a report here, have direct involvement in a report, or have relevant information about a report that has not been brought up yet, in order to not derail or delay the processing of the reports, or worse instigate further rule violations. Repeated violations will be followed with a strict warning, followed by a threadban for one week to a site ban for some duration, depending on the severity of their conduct.

You're not making a report, you don't have direct involvement in it, and you don't have relevant new information.

Could a discussion mod/admin please delete Dread's post?

 

[BigSmoke4269]

@Dread



You're not making a report, you don't have direct involvement in it, and you don't have relevant new information.

Could a discussion mod/admin please delete Dread's post?

dread was participating in the thread so he was kind of involved

 

[BigSmoke4269]

Yeah, no, this doesn't makes sense, Goku would need to be close to even be able to listen Saul, and by the time he gets closer he is already prepared to finish the fight, it won't even give Saul time to say something meaningful.

And that's assuming Goku doesn't just throw an energy ball from kilometers away.

the fight took place in freddy fazbear's pizzaria, so they would've been close enough to talk.

epic fail

 

[Armorchompy]

Can we stop talking about the match? It really doesn't matter who "wins".

 

[BigSmoke4269]

hes true

again, being wrong on a vs thread doesn't warrant punishment

 

[Armorchompy]

I wouldn't act too smug about this, Smoke, you could really use to treat the situation with a hint of seriousness.

 

[Therefir]

The distance between them is the least of the problems I have with this match, but at this point we're just cluttering up the thread, so let's stop it.

I would leave it to others if only a warning would suffice in this case.

 

[Agnaa]

Max separation in a restaurant =/= close enough to talk.

I don't think the rule in the OP grants license for every single person that participated in a thread where a rule violation took place to comment about it here. I believe it more means "The person making the report, the person being reported, and the person the violation was directed towards."

Match is relevant since the point of relevance is whether he should've known that it was a stomp or not.

It's not about being wrong in a vs thread, it's about creating a vast mismatch.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

Match is relevant since the point of relevance is whether he should've known that it was a stomp or not.

It's not about being wrong in a vs thread, it's about creating a vast mismatch.

i havent seen anyone get punished for making a stomp thread before, and the fact that people were discussing it means that it wasn't absolutely obvious. i didn't make a stomp match intentionally. actually, my intention was to have a fair match between goku and saul goodman, since it would be funny to see on their profiles. that's it.

 

[Therefir]

i havent seen anyone get punished for making a stomp thread before.

I've seen plenty of those actually, specially if they are repeated offenders (not saying you are currently).

Stop talking from an ignorant point of view, it doesn't help your case.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

are you talking about spite matches? because punishing someone for multiple spite matches makes sense to me. it doesn't make sense for stomps, since those are usually unintentional.

 

[Therefir]

It's hard to discern when someone is making stomp matches on purpose, whatever be it for fun, trolling or hate, or if they are simply being ignorant.

If previous, similar cases of yours were from years ago then I don't think a topic ban is necessary, but someone would need to check on that.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

i did recently make a stomp match for walter as well, attempting to restrict his opponent's abilities. they apparently couldn't be restricted, which made it a stomp. i think that's it.

my previous problems had nothing to do with stomp matches anyways, they were about being obnoxious and making cool cat profiles.

 

[Agnaa]

The only difference between Spite Threads and Stomp Threads is intentionality, but that's hard to discern.

Still, the Spite Thread page provides guidelines.

Stomps are usually done by new users, by users who don't know the powers of the characters.

Spite threads are usually done by regular users who know the powers of the characters.

I think it leans more onto spite territory since you should know that Goku has ki attacks, stat amps, and you should know about the limitations of Saul's SI, the amount of knowledge he'd have to utilize, and the time he'd have to adjust to this situations.

EDIT: Like, if you didn't overhaul the BB/BCS profiles, it was a more obscure character than Goku, or a more obscure ability that led to Goku's win, I wouldn't view it as a violation.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

I think it leans more onto spite territory since you should know that Goku has ki attacks, stat amps

stat amps would only give saul more time to convince goku not to kill him

and you should know about the limitations of Saul's SI, the amount of knowledge he'd have to utilize, and the time he'd have to adjust to this situations.

well, i still think saul would be able to convince goku not to kill him. we seem to have different views on saul's social influencing, and you're acting like yours is an objective fact.

EDIT: Like, if you didn't overhaul the BB/BCS profiles, it was a more obscure character than Goku, or a more obscure ability that led to Goku's win, I wouldn't view it as a violation.

saul was winning lol

 

[BigSmoke4269]

i don't really think we need to go over this. two other people were voting for saul, so it clearly wasn't completely absurd for him to be capable of winning. i think we just overlooked the range problem.

 

[Moritzva]

Some of the people voting Saul have made it very clear they didn't know shit about Saul and were simply swayed by misinformation.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Some of the people voting Saul have made it very clear they didn't know shit about Saul and were simply swayed by misinformation.

Mori, as one of the people who voted for Saul, stop trying to claim that those who voted for him were "swayed by misinformation" like we're at fault for agreeing with the evidence provided at the time.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

Some of the people voting Saul have made it very clear they didn't know shit about Saul and were simply swayed by misinformation.

who said that? infiniteday just said that they weren’t, and i haven’t seen girronki say anything. those were the only people who voted for saul.

 

[Moritzva]

Mori, as one of the people who voted for Saul, stop trying to claim that those who voted for him were "swayed by misinformation" like we're at fault for agreeing with the evidence provided at the time.

Objectively, what I said places zero blame on people who vote for Saul (or people who are unsure about it being a stomp, as I expressed above) without knowing much about Saul. An individual that was swayed by misinformation is not to blame, because how would they know? The entire point is that they are not at fault, as they wouldn't know and would simply believe the arguments presented.

Anyone who was watched Better Call Saul or Breaking Bad has absolutely zero excuse whatsoever, as the show very blatantly does not support such a conclusion whatsoever. Full stop. The evidence is so incredibly obvious and the situations are so telling that it is remarkably hard for me to believe that anyone could unironically believe it isn't a stomp outside of intentional ignorance or bad faith. As Agnaa implied above, even if we are to believe that it is possible for someone to believe that, someone that remarkably unaware absolutely should not be allowed to make further versus matches with the verse. Period.

It's harsh, but true. This conclusion is far too obvious for anyone to both know Better Call Saul and unironically believe.

Please, actually read what I'm saying before commenting. I'll be deleting further comments that derail pointlessly.