Chaos Force Type 5 Acausality

[Everything12]

Well that's wrong, someone should probably downgrade that if that's the only "evidence". As I can't see any upgrade thread for her, I'm guessing her profile was created with Acausality Type 5 on and no one noticed it because of her having more important aspects to review and that was lost among it all.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I am neutral overall, but using other verses as a example isn’t a good thing to compared to the verse.



Also technically that does stems from the statements regarding the nature of the individual it seems.

I’m aware. I was just giving an example of a type 5 where cause and effect isn’t mentioned in response to what Everything said. I’m not saying the contexts are the same.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Well that's wrong, someone should probably downgrade that if that's the only "evidence". As I can't see any upgrade thread for her, I'm guessing her profile was created with Acausality Type 5 on and no one noticed it because of her having more important aspects to review and that was lost among it all.

Yeah, that profile needs a review regarding specifics of that profile’s acausality type.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Well that's wrong, someone should probably downgrade that if that's the only "evidence". As I can't see any upgrade thread for her, I'm guessing her profile was created with Acausality Type 5 on and no one noticed it because of her having more important aspects to review and that was lost among it all.

I don’t know anything about the verse and my intent wasn’t to compare verses, I just saw it had type 5 so from what I could see, directly mentioning cause of effect, while preferred isn’t completely necessary.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I think the issue might be the acausality page in general. The type 5 description is pretty barebones, which is why I had to search through various threads and profiles to get an idea about what would qualify. It should probably go into more details about what the requirements are to have it.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I think the issue might be the acausality page in general.

I would have to agree. The description of Type 5 existing as it is does sounds like Archie qualifies.

 

[Sniper670]

Not exactly.

Not exactly. Theres context:

Strangely enough, as Alovenus herself had said, there was no concept of strength in a battle of this level anymore. Concepts, providences, laws, and even limits were all things that had been created by God. Therefore, there were no such things in the realm of God. They would just have to create their own based on their whims. They were like trying to paint their own colors on a blank white canvas and enforce their own truths. Alovenus could do that, so there was no reason why they couldn’t do it themselves. After all, they were residents of the world that had been created by Alovenus. For the same reason, natural laws didn’t apply to them. In hindsight, this was probably why the laws of physics didn’t apply to them at all.

 

[Everything12]

Not exactly. Theres context:

That alone would still not be enough, not unless it specified somewhere that providence or laws specifically include causality in a earlier or later part of the story.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Not exactly. Theres context:

You missed the point.

Everything: Causality must be directly mentioned to get type 5.

Me: Gives example of a profile with type 5 that doesn’t directly mention causality.

I didn’t say there wasn’t context for it, but it doesn’t directly mention causality, which is what Everything is saying is needed for type 5.

 

[Sniper670]

One of the laws in the verse is causality hax.... Of which some attacks can completely ignore.

Unique skills bypass causality to always hit, regardless of what you do

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

If we are going to use examples from other series, in Doctor Who, The Lords of Gallifrey has at least 4 declarations of being out of conventional time and casuality, in addition to the fact that they true nature is incomprehensible and only understandable by other transcendental beings.

all that with the Ultimate Sanction only gives Type 4 to the time lords

It took a ton of such ******* direct Evidence to make The Celesties(A faction of the Timelords) go Acasuality type 5 and with them the Memeovore obtained Acasuality Negation

 

[Sniper670]

It's clear as day why they're type 4
Type 4 is irregular causality, of which they are:

"They're outside the normal chain of causal events"

So it's just irregular acausality. Not transcendent Acausality

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Ya that seems better, they are more outside of causal events than normal Type 4, however strong enough Causality Manip can still just overpower it.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

that's just the wording of the profile coming from a simplified explanation, plus even then, the Ultimate Sanction which is to basically destroy the entire casuality in its entirety and transcend it is just type 4.

Generally in doctor who when someone overpower it, is because they are a transcendental beings(Aka high God tier) or because they literally chain and create casuality (as the Time lords did in Dark times)

but my point is, just suprassed casuality and time sometimes isn't enough for type 5, it's just another deep level of type 4

 

[Sniper670]

but my point is, just suprassed casuality and time sometimes isn't enough for type 5, it's just another deep level of type 4

Type 5 requires you to exist outside the causality system of your verse, not just a section of it.

These Timelord guys are no different from Chaos Force existing outside the causal events of the main multiverse and needing a part of himself to beat him. I see no difference at all

If you transcend the law of cause and event of an entire cosmology(not a part of it), it's type 5

 

[ShakeResounding]

The moment other profiles are brought into question shows that Type 5 may need some work on how it's presented in the Acausality page. Especially if somebody has to do this-

-which is why I had to search through various threads and profiles to get an idea about what would qualify. It should probably go into more details about what the requirements are to have it.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Type 5 requires you to exist outside the causality system of your verse, not just a section of it.

You mean like this?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

unfortunately, i believe the wiki takes a stance to keep time and causality separated from each other. At least that's what i encountered in the past. At most, the wiki only goes as far as Type 4 for specific and certain time shenanigan's.

about 3 years ago (or maybe 2?) I tried to argue time and causality are inextricably linked together. At that time i didn't understand fully the difference between type 4 and 5. but now i do

anyways, when i argued that on a thread staff basically agreed that transcending time in anyway doesn't give acausality type 5

 

[ElixirBlue]

on a thread staff basically agreed that transcending time in anyway doesn't give acausality type 5

Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system. Even interacting with them normally may prove virtually impossible.

Something needs to be done if this definition is not communicating its intent for the wiki

 

[Sniper670]

You mean like this?

That's just existing in a higher plane with 0 references to the law of cause and effect. No. That's just 5D, making you more complex than 4D, but not necessarily existing outside of cause and effect in its entirety.

 

[Sniper670]

anyways, when i argued that on a thread staff basically agreed that transcending time in anyway doesn't give acausality type 5

I believe it's because causality still works even outside of time. At least as portrayed by most verse on the wiki
A lot of verse where time don't exist won't necessarily make you immune to causality hax

 

[Everything12]

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system. Even interacting with them normally may prove virtually impossible.

I guess maybe

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality are completely independent of cause and effect, existing outside all systems of causality. Even interacting with them normally is virtually impossible, as they are uneffected by anything that relies on causality to enact change.

Note: Being independent of time or laws; or similar forces, does not make you independent of causality without the relationship between these forces and causality being stated.

Probably not the best, but it works as an example of how I believe the conditions for Acausality Type 5 can be explained.

 

[ElixirBlue]

So, I'm not seeing what makes Arceus different than Archie on his page.

 

[Sniper670]

So, I'm not seeing what makes Arceus different than Archie on his page.

Predates, Transcends.

It's simple

 

[ElixirBlue]

Transcends

1. Transcending reality doesn't give you Acausality type 5

 

[Everything12]

Acausality (Type 5; Created, exists beyond and transcends the Pokémon reality and the Distortion world. As such he isn't bound to the logic/laws of both worlds. One of which follows normal logic and causal laws, and the other of which defies logic. Its Avatar being able to freely overturn these laws)

Direct mention of causality basically.

 

[Sniper670]

Not without context?

 

[Everything12]

Well of course not, but if you don't have any mention of causality directly then you are no getting Acausality Type 5 no matter how you transcend reality.

 

[Sniper670]

I don't want to be biased, Digimon characters were given type 5 a few days ago for the same reasons as Chaos Force. Kind of why I conceded. Because there were Admins there

 

[Everything12]

Can I see the thread?

 

[Sniper670]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/digimon-revisions-hybrids-darkness-some-updates.139181/

 

[Everything12]

I'm just going to hope that the people their only read the Power and Abilities section and didn't open the imgur link to check if it actually mentioned causality, or perhaps they have knowledge on the series that wasn't mentioned that would be sufficient evidence.

 

[Sniper670]

Your Proposal on Acausality type 5 description is great

Many people are confusing existing in a higher plane to mean automatic type 5 Acausality.

 

[Tatsumi504]

The Next Evolution is a higher plane of existence above physical reality. It serves as an afterlife for the deceased spirits of the Brotherhood of Guardians. Beings from the Next Evolution, such as Mathias view the concept of time as being irrelevant to them. In context as described in the next panel, it refers to how Mathias transcended his physical form and entered the higher plane, that being Next Evolution. This is also demonstrated by their ability to freely travel through time, as shown by Hawking following his death and ascension. This would make Next Evolution spirits acausal by nature due to being outside the linear flow of time, and the Chaos Force is transcendent over the Next Evolution.

Transcending time ≠ transcending casuality. Even if it qualifies in this case its just type 4.

During the events of Worlds Collide, Eggman and Wily aimed to use the Genesis Wave to rewrite the entire Archieverse. The Second Genesis Wave is able to rearrange events across past, present, and future on a multiversal scale. It can also bend, cheat, and rewrite the rules of reality. Note that the Chaos Force has been unaffected at this point. It’s not until the Super Genesis Wave/Super Sonic’s botched Chaos Control that the Chaos Force is affected and nuked from existence. The Chaos Force not being affected until that point goes to how it transcends physical reality and so its laws do not apply to it, including causality as altering past, present, and future had no effect on the Chaos Force.

Resisting causality hax ≠ any type of acasuality.
Also all I see here is the chaos force being outside the causality of the real world via being HDE. This is the same as type 4.

They are stated to be far beyond the comprehension of normal beings. Beings on the transcendental Next Evolution also cannot see them. In addition, the Chaos Force deity Aurora states that she can only be perceived how others can imagine her, as her true nature is incomprehensible to them, hence why Knuckles sees her as an echidna.

Once again, this is HDE. All I see is type 4 scaling chain via being higher dimensional.

Disagree with this.

 

[Sniper670]

Tbh being in a higher plane doesn't give type 4 Acausality.

You're automatically more complex than a lower plane. I don't think we hand out type 4 acausality just because of hde

 

[Tatsumi504]

Tbh being in a higher plane doesn't give type 4 Acausality.

You're automatically more complex than a lower plane. I don't think we hand out type 4 acausality just because of hde

It deserves type 4 if the said HDE is above normal causality but still operates under a different system of casuality

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I’m going to suggest putting this CRT on hold until a clear criteria is established for type 5, such as whether or not you need direct statements of causality to receive type 5. @Everything12 should make a thread pitching his proposal where other knowledgeable members on the subject can give their input.

If the consensus is that you need direct statements of causality to get type 5, then Archie won’t qualify. If not, it could still be debated on.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Causality is an aspect of time. Cause and Effect, are essentially chronological events in linear continuums. I don't know why we need to regard it as a separate conception from temporal continuum when it isn't

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Time=causality, I don't see why tier 1 beings that get their rating via transcending time and space on a higher plane (and not via infinite big size or something similar) can't get acausality type 5. And not to mention Chaos Force beings transcend both causality and acausality. So I agree with this.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Causality is an aspect of time. Cause and Effect, are essentially chronological events in linear continuums. I don't know why we need to regard it as a separate conception from temporal continuum when it isn't

Causality - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Time is considered a part of Causality