Question about cross-verse One-shots and Upscaling

[Planck69]

Something that came up in a match between Obito Uchiha and Ji Ning. I'll illustrate it with a basic situation is as follows;

Alice is from verse A. There, regular demons are 7-A+, specifically 600 Megatons. She's slightly superior to the average one.

Bob is from Verse B. Foot soldiers are 560 Megaton 7-A+s. Colonels one-shot them, generals oneshot colonels and Kings oneshot colonels. Bob oneshots Kings but there's no higher tier calc or specific gap stated so he remains 7-A+.

My question is this; Can Bob oneshot Alice despite them both being still within 7-A or not?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

"Scaling chains are useful to have an idea of how strong a characters is, but we've never given any actual number to characters because of scaling chains.
And all vs matches work under this assumption, you take the first calc a character scales to, as use it as a basis to compare their stats to those of the opponent, and take in account scaling chains only to give an idea of how much stronger than that they theoretically are.

But these are rules that are accepted and applied since a long time, both for vs matches and for indexing, which is why you see characters that have supe duper long scaling chains behind them but remain in the same tier of the character at the bottom.

The Attack Potency page explains better some of the aforementioned things, especially the "additional terms" section"

SamanPatou said this in another vs thread.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

If you can prove an absurd gap in strength using scaling for Bob then he'd breach into the higher tier.

But I believe they'd still be within the same ballpark in terms of physical AP.

 

[Rikimarox2]

So in this case, Bob wouldn't be able to one shot Alice despite the scaling chain?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Personally I'd say something like:

If character A is > character B naturally but character B has a massive scaling chain, they are even.

But if character A is > character B naturally and character A has a scaling chain made up of one-shots, then character A can one-shot character B.

 

[Baken384]

The difference between Bob and Alice's AP is like 1.1x, even less than that.
With the context that Alice is only slightly stronger than demons and Bob has like two to three or even four if I counted it correctly one shots under his scaling chain.
In my opinion, I think Bob can one shot Alice here.

 

[Planck69]

If you can prove an absurd gap in strength using scaling for Bob then he'd breach into the higher tier.

But I believe they'd still be within the same ballpark in terms of physical AP.

If I may ask, what would consistute an absurd gap? A part of the chain in Ji Ning's case is just him killing a dude with one sword swing and another is him leaving someone completely helpless with a gesture. Would stuff like that be enough or do we need like, numbers and such?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

We've never really quantified it but personally I believe that if you can reliably prove that a character who has a numbered feat is no threat to a stronger character in the slightest, that latter character can breach into a higher tier.

Of course this is all under the assumption of our rules for tier breaching past +.

 

[XDragnoir]

Personally I'd say something like:

If character A is > character B naturally but character B has a massive scaling chain, they are even.

But if character A is > character B naturally and character A has a scaling chain made up of one-shots, then character A can one-shot character B.

So you're saying someone who is, for example, >>>>9MTs will at best be even with someone =10MTs but someone that is as much as >10MTs will one shot someone =9MTs?

That makes no sense, a better scaling chain should give someone an advantage not be limited cause "we can't gauge" it or whatever.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

In real life, a 1.5x strength difference can make or break a fight. This is not always true in fiction. So if we apply a lowball to a proverbial "stomp" or "one-shot", it would barely even be 2x an AP difference. You can try stacking that as many times as you want in a chain, but chances are you will still not be beyond an AP stomp by our site's standards (which is a 7.5x AP difference).

As such, the model I'm working on makes more sense technically. Having a scaling chain against someone naturally stronger requires mental gymnastics to prove physical superiority. However, someone who already has a feat of stomping someone in a lower AP ballpark will always carry over logically, objectively so in fact.

 

[XDragnoir]

In real life, a 1.5x strength difference can make or break a fight. This is not always true in fiction. So if we apply a lowball to a proverbial "stomp" or "one-shot", it would barely even be 2x an AP difference. You can try stacking that as many times as you want in a chain, but chances are you will still not be beyond an AP stomp by our site's standards (which is a 7.5x AP difference).

I mean, idc if it is or isn't an AP stomp if i stack it 100x in the same scaling chain, but it needs to be something cause you're saying it's nothing, maybe 5 one shots in the same scaling chain would result in a 3x AP increase or barely 2x but that's still better than "a massive scaling chain will lead to both being even"

As such, the model I'm working on makes more sense technically. Having a scaling chain against someone naturally stronger requires mental gymnastics to prove physical superiority. However, someone who already has a feat of stomping someone in a lower AP ballpark will always carry over logically, objectively so in fact.

I understand your logic, but i don't agree with that route.

 

[Planck69]

The logic being discussed is weird because in these instances the power gap between the values themselves is barely a thing. Like, the above example in my original post has the values in verse A be only 1.07x that of B.

So I find it weird that a scaling chain on the lower value would only even things out with the higher one.

The main issue I'm curious to know is when the actual values are almost the same or even the same but one has a oneshot scaling chain but is still within the same tier and both are + values. Would the latter be one-shotting be other characters who have AP similar to the former, can Bob upscale or since they're still technically less than 2x apart due to being in the same tier, it wouldn't count.

 

[XDragnoir]

Bump