KIngdom Hearts Conceptual Light/Darkness->Hearts and Nobody NEP

[Bobsican]

Okay, we've gone forward enought to go further on the plans.
Gonna leave here this blog, now talk on what to do over this.
Another CRT after this one may be done over what's accepted (aka, how it impacts profiles).
But yeah, in a nutshell this is arguing that light, darkness and by extension Hearts are of conceptual nature (type 1), and also for Nobody NEP out of lacking certain existencial aspects.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Hearts are a fairly important part of the lore of the franchise and there are characters who have manipulated and used them for their own purposes as such it's about time that we actually decide as what sort of ability we qualify manipulating hearts as. I recall that the last time the topic of hearts being concepts was discussed that there was an issue of there being a lack of a universal scope with individual hearts though given that Conceptual Manipulation went through changes to reduce its reliance on universal range this shouldn't be as much of an issue anymore. Hearts are separate from the body and the soul, so we know for a fact that anything physical or Soul Manipulation doesn't account for a heart.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Alright, so to continue the debate from the comments in the blog post:

So your concern is that it appears that the Heart in here appears to be simply meant in a figurative sense? Well, the thing is that it doesn't only apply to sentient beings, but to all things as explicitly noted in the 7th footnote.

Yes, but the world being exceptional in objects having a heart (and in the quote in the footnote it sounds like this is definitely something not expected to be the case in the real world) doesn't confirm or deny anything regarding the nature of heart in the universe. Objects having a magical source of compassion and memories in them isn't unimaginable for fiction.

Yes, Nobodies aren't non-corporeal, yet they simply behave as intangible out of their nonexistence sometimes. You may remember I told you I knew a verse where this rare case of NEP with this detail respectively, and it's this one, if there's something missing/questionable to fit for type 3 NEP out of not being non-corporeal after this, please clarify.

By the rules they would need to behave physically nonexistent in regard to all physical attacks due to their nonexistence, like I said back then. Being only sometimes intangible alone wouldn't suffice.

Also, memories happen to be a component of Hearts, but they aren't inherently necessary so-to speak, as everyone is born with one after birth.

As the quotes put it "a heart without memories is already an empty shell" (footnote 15). So it's at minimum like 99% memories, which doesn't go in favour of it being a concept.
Actually, saying that the heart explicitly doesn't exist before birth, isn't much in favor of conceptual existence IMO. And at the moment of birth people technically have memories (at minimum the one's from the instant of being born).

More specifically, while hearts have made up reality before the universe, a new individual one is born for every being, but they're all still tied to the rest, aka, Kingdom Hearts itself, so it's a quite weird case. IIRC souls in DMC were accepted as type 1 concepts for similar reasons even if they had a similar case.

I can't comment on that as I know nothing about DMC or that revision of it. All hearts being connected in some way alone shouldn't prove that something is a concept. Code Geass for example has a common subconsciousness of all humans and I dare say that would quite obviously be more of a mental thing, than a conceptual one. (there are also universal hive minds in some verses...)

As for light and darkness being a figurative for ying and yang, while I can see the parallel, it's stated that hearts were born from darkness, multiple times in fact.
There's also the matter that Nobodies being rejected by "good" and "evil" (), rather than the existencial concepts of light and darkness (as mentioned shortly after in the same scan where "the world's made of light and darkness" is) raises more questions and thus seems more assumptive. For context, "yet choose to live in the light" refers to the Realm of Light, aka, the part of the universe where most Worlds are, and light is fairly prominent. (Excessive) darkness just happens to have negative effects on Hearts, but that's a bit off-topic.

Alright, I will concede that light and arkness aren't yin and yang in literal sense. However, in my understanding of what's shown in these links, there are places made/filled with "darkness" and places likewise made from "light". That brings me to the question: Why can they not just be a fundamental substance?

Being the component from which matter, energy and heart are created doesn't mean it's more abstract than these things in themself are.

For the record, Kingdom Hearts itself is described as:



https://www.khwiki.com/Xehanort%27s_Report#Xehanort's_Report_III



"Kingdom Hearts could be described as an aggregate of hearts. Worlds, too, have hearts, just like people; each world's heart is concealed from sight, beyond a hidden door. By gathering all the hearts of all the worlds in a single place, one may complete Kingdom Hearts"



I'd also recommend to check the 5th and 6th footnotes as well. The 10th footnote also overall implies that light and darkness define existence, and so can't be within emptiness, which ties well with the other presented statements for light and darkness making up existence and Nobodies having NEP.

Don't worry I have read all the footnotes.
What footnote 6 is concerned, though.

The heart of worlds was a great heart that gathered everything that formed those worlds: the natural things such as the trees in the forests, the oceans and rivers, the flowers and such.

How is it gathering to be interpreted? Did it literally gather flowers and rivers or is the gathering here to be considered figuratively?

Now to Murphys comment:

After reading this, i notice quite a few problems with the idea of the heart being metaphorical in the case of Kingdom Hearts, allow me to elaborate, the first thing to clarify is that the english dub of kingdom hearts was stated to be more of a direct and blunt translation in order to avoid misinterpretation, so chirithy's claim should indeed be taken at face value.

No, the translation can not outweigh the original. It's still just a translation, even if a direct translation was attempted. It can't be more canon than the original text.
Especially, since the English text in itself is open for interpretation. One can understand "conceptually" in the context of the quote to be used in a figurative sense and that would be what the original text supports if it mentions no concepts there. "Concept" is a word that can take many meanings and many of them do not qualify for concept manipulation. This is very clearly a case of that.

With that out of the way let's get into why hearts being purely metaphorical wouldn't apply here. One of the key things that come to mind to disprove them being metaphorical is that all hearts have an incorporeal form with instances like ansems heart (not his body) appearing to sora in Kingdom Hearts 1

I think you misunderstand what I mean when I say heart in a metaphorical sense. I don't mean that there is no heart. But you know how one says that someone "has a lot of heart", to mean that they are very compassionate and stuff? What I mean is that heart is used in that sense. As being a term to mean things like feelings and compassions and stuff.

And yeah, of course, things like compassion and feelings can have an incorporeal form in fiction. Minds very often have an incorporeal form in fiction and in your average verse emotions would be counted as part of the mind.

I have no doubts that the heart exists as an incorporeal thing in people, but what I argue is that it isn't a concept but of similar nature to incorporeal minds instead.

The problem with this statement is that the body isnt needed to feel emotion at all

The purpose of a scissor is to cut things, yet you can cut things without using a scissor.
Something's purpose being to aid with something, doesn't mean that something can't be achieved without the aid.

All of this with the crowning jewel that a characters heart can carry over to their next incarnation after death

Is the reincarnation exactly the same person? 'cause if not that might be more of an argument against it being a concept IMO. Two conceptually identical things should be identical and all that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was asked to share this comment from my friend Plozible

This might be my only comment depending on how this is received, mainly because I don't want to keep bothering DDM in regard to sending messages (thanks tho man).

I will say that I fully disagree with the heart being conceptual. I've done some thorough research (beyond even just this franchise), and I believe you will understand this sentiment once it's fully conveyed. The real problem here is that the way we have attempted to define mind/soul and heart on the wiki is simply just not accurate. However, this is understandable given we've been thinking about these terms in Western civilization. I would like to highlight one of the quotes shared in the blog that actually proves this.

"–What is the definition of a heart in Kingdom Hearts?

Nomura: It is the theme of the series. To explain it simply, a person has a body, a soul, and a heart. As an image, the soul is the life source, without it a person would be dead. Since the heart doesn’t have a form, memories play an important part in forming a heart. Also, the heart isn’t limited to people, but to all things. I tried to explain this concept to Disney, and they merely said that it must be an Eastern way of thinking. It may be interesting how overseas players think of it."

We misunderstand these terms because Nomura bases these ideas off of Shintoism. To quote from Shinto: A History, "...the word "tama" refers to a spiritual power infusing a material object while preserving the integrity of both itself and the object. Hence it can sometimes be thought of as resembling the Western ideas of "soul" or spirit."" Tama would be what we consider the soul in Kingdom Hearts. It's not really the same type of "soul" we think about as it's essentially just life energy. Kokoro, which is what the heart is in Japanese, is basically what controls an animate object. It's the capacity for feelings, emotions, and other cognitive processes that gives uniqueness to an object.

I'll cut the boring lectures short though because that's now what we're here for. Basically, this very much redefines how we think about the soul/mind and heart. The soul/mind are actually just metaphysical life energy while the heart is much more in line with what a soul actually would be to us. This all largely still works with what's in the blog too. Kokoro is essentially the essence of your being in Shintoism, it is different from tama (the soul/mind), and you would not be "you" without it. The only thing that might be hard to reconcile is the conceptually in pieces statement. However, I feel this can be chalked up as not being able to adequately express these ideas in English since this stems from Eastern thinking or being figurative as DontTalk suggested. What I'm saying here is in line with what Nomura says in this interview himself, just elaborated upon.

As for True Kingdom Hearts itself, it is fine to be Type 1 conceptual. It is directly the source of all hearts existing period, helps define the Kingdom Hearts reality on a fundamental level, and exists independently of the objects its tied to (predates reality + doesn't share the same constraints as a normal heart like being able to be shaped through memory shenanigans).

Nobodies are hard to reconcile when we consider the information on Shintoism. On one hand, you can argue that they should be clearly physical. They are the body and spirit left behind after a heart leaves. It's literally just the body continuing to go on because its life energy propels it to. We know this is the case as well because really the only difference between Lingering Will and nobodies is that nobodies already have a vessel to continue pushing while Lingering Will has to assemble armor for a physical form. Organization Members very clearly can express physical pain through nerve receptors, and we have instances where normal people can stiller interact with these nobodies.

On the other hand, there are a couple mentions of legitimately provable nothingness in the franchise. The one that sticks out most notably is the data entry where Terra's heart ends up in a place that very clearly does follow what actual nothingness would be. Most descriptions of nonexistence in KH don't really do a good job at selling nobodies being truly conceptually nonexistent physiologically. In terms of statements of being rejected by light and darkness, this just comes down to them not having hearts. Hearts are what have both light and darkness, so nobodies lack these qualities since they don't have hearts. This comes more down to lacking a sense of self rather than actually proving a conceptual NEP. Some of the entries in the blog just further this idea too. "Embodiments of emptiness" very clearly refers to their lack of emotional capacity. Notice how a lot of mentions of them being nonexistent are followed by not feeling emotions too? It's all very cumulative.

So technically, they should qualify for a type of NEP. I would say they fit Material Nonexistence well with an added possibly Idealistic Nonexistence when accounting for Terra's statement. As for what aspects of nonexistence they'd have, spiritual is a given since we've redefined kokoro, mental should be likely given nobodies lack emotion and can't have things like memories tampered with due to lacking a heart, and possibly information(?) given manipulating memories in Kingdom Hearts actually alters reality itself due to how the heart works (and nobodies obviously aren't affected by that).

So overall, this is what my thoughts are:

• No to conceptual hearts, they are just souls
• Yes to Type 1 True Kingdom Hearts
• Yes and no to NEP for Nobodies, they aren't conceptually nonexistent but have other types of nonexistence that should still be added (They should have Material Nonexistence, possibly Idealistic Nonexistence as their natures)

 

[Bobsican]

Yes, but the world being exceptional in objects having a heart (and in the quote in the footnote it sounds like this is definitely something not expected to be the case in the real world) doesn't confirm or deny anything regarding the nature of heart in the universe. Objects having a magical source of compassion and memories in them isn't unimaginable for fiction.

Okay, I'll cover this with stuff in the other parts below.

By the rules they would need to behave physically nonexistent in regard to all physical attacks due to their nonexistence, like I said back then. Being only sometimes intangible alone wouldn't suffice.

All physical attacks... hmmm... on second thought, this is indeed the case. Cases where "normal" stuff hits them is quite explicitly exceptional (See the whole KHII novel description of the in-game events over Roxas being unable to hit a Nobody until he got a mean to do so (A Keyblade)), or can be explained by other means (Luxord being affected by Jack's breath can be covered by how he has a fragment of Xehanort's Heart within him, and so he's "existent" regardless).

As the quotes put it "a heart without memories is already an empty shell" (footnote 15). So it's at minimum like 99% memories, which doesn't go in favour of it being a concept.

Actually, saying that the heart explicitly doesn't exist before birth, isn't much in favor of conceptual existence IMO. And at the moment of birth people technically have memories (at minimum the one's from the instant of being born).

I suppose this is a valid point.

I can't comment on that as I know nothing about DMC or that revision of it. All hearts being connected in some way alone shouldn't prove that something is a concept. Code Geass for example has a common subconsciousness of all humans and I dare say that would quite obviously be more of a mental thing, than a conceptual one. (there are also universal hive minds in some verses...)

Well, the thing is that true KH is made of all Hearts there are in existence, with itself being a thing before the universe, leading into individual Hearts being part of a universal concept, even if they happen to only define a single being or World's existence and other aspects on their own.

Alright, I will concede that light and arkness aren't yin and yang in literal sense. However, in my understanding of what's shown in these links, there are places made/filled with "darkness" and places likewise made from "light". That brings me to the question: Why can they not just be a fundamental substance?

Being the component from which matter, energy and heart are created doesn't mean it's more abstract than these things in themself are.

Can you explain what you mean in particular here with "fundamental substance"?

Don't worry I have read all the footnotes.
What footnote 6 is concerned, though.

The heart of worlds was a great heart that gathered everything that formed those worlds: the natural things such as the trees in the forests, the oceans and rivers, the flowers and such.

How is it gathering to be interpreted? Did it literally gather flowers and rivers or is the gathering here to be considered figuratively?

In an indirect manner. A World in itself has a Heart, and such Heart forms "everything" within it as explained there, which is what implies that Hearts are of conceptual nature. In fact, when a World loses its Heart, it's reported that they blink out of the sky (And yes, Worlds are visible in the sky in this manner, that was already accepted in another CRT, more specifically this part), in fact, we do see Destiny Islands appearing within End of the World (which is what the KH of Worlds sustained), which previously went there out of having its Heart taken.

Regardless, I'd rather clarify to not mix up the KH of Worlds with true KH. The KH of Worlds is an artificially made one that only holds the Hearts of all Worlds, rather than of people and other objects as well. True KH holds all Hearts there are in existence at once, and has existed before the universe as said before unlike it.

No, the translation can not outweigh the original. It's still just a translation, even if a direct translation was attempted. It can't be more canon than the original text.
Especially, since the English text in itself is open for interpretation. One can understand "conceptually" in the context of the quote to be used in a figurative sense and that would be what the original text supports if it mentions no concepts there. "Concept" is a word that can take many meanings and many of them do not qualify for concept manipulation. This is very clearly a case of that.

I suppose this is fair as well.

Is the reincarnation exactly the same person? 'cause if not that might be more of an argument against it being a concept IMO. Two conceptually identical things should be identical and all that.

I'd have commented more on the rest of what Murphy brought up and got addressed, but not much else sticks out to me.
Uh... I'd rather avoid using Player for this, their case is pretty vague at the moment, and for all we know Player's Heart simply became a part of Xehanort's at around the time of his birth, so it isn't really reincarnation either.

Now, over Ploz's stuff... while I support true KH being a type 1 concept out of its known details, I'm neutral on the rest at the moment, however, for Hearts simply being souls for our purposes, not only they also define the existence of what anything is in the series (we don't say that someone lacking a soul is inherently erased from existence/nonexistent, do we?), going by the idea of "Tama" as mentioned, the "soul" goes against the Heart being independent from it, as Hearts are independent of said "soul". The mentioned soul can even linger and continue having a mind while lacking a Heart (most notably with Lingering Will).
The soul is even indirectly called a mind (See from the start of the video if you want context), and for that matter, LW even being a Nobody at all is also up to debate as it's never formally considered as one.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

"Nobodies can phase through attacks, especially when they're attacking, or at will."

We have this regarding Intangibility on the Nobody Physiology page.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

@QuasiYuri @Executor_N0 @Elizhaa @Pain_to12 @Starter_Pack I was asked to ping you since you are listed as knowledgeable members in regards to concepts and Nonexistent Physiology and this thread could use some more activity.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I will go through this later

 

[Executor_N0]

I basically agree with Plozible.

First of all, as I usually say, don't think about the names. Names are useless and trying to fit things between a fictional work and our system understanding due to same names, isn't something that will always work. As I said before, just because something is called an Outerverse doesn't mean it's our Tier 1 stuff.

In the same way, Hearts and Souls being "different things" in KH matters nothing, because the names are useless. What matters is the structure that is being named, not the name. If KH called "soul" a physical heart and a Heart a metaphysical soul, we would consider them by what they are, not by name. So when you are talking about "But in KH Souls and Hearts are different", look at what Plozible is stating a soul to be, not at the name.

Especially in relation to metaphysical essences, the naming is one of the worst things to base reasonings on because many different ideologies and translations mix up names a lot.

Take for example a game as "Digimon Story: Cyber Sleuth Hacker's Memory", the entire focus of the game is in "Memories", however, the stuff that Memories make up is called "Mind Data" in the English language is called "精神データ" (Seishin dēta). If you look into what that means, the kanjis "精神" is mostly translated as "Spirit", but in the end, is more because of the consciousness around the concept than anything else. In the end, words for heart, soul, spirit, mind, all seem to overlap in various languages and contexts and that is why it's necessary to look at the structure than anything else.

About the Heart stuff, unless there's more information on that, I really see that no different than a variation of something like an Aristotelian understanding of the "Soul" that is divided into three parts that manage different things on a being. There are various systems like that, sometimes they have a hierarchy between each other, other times they are independent of each other.

The necessity of things being "souls" or "minds" or even "concepts" is a bit confusing when a system based on allowing multi-layered personal "metaphysical essences" would be enough to explain things, without the need to include the vague understanding of "concept" on it. I thought that the current changes on the Conceptual Manipulation page would fix that, but I wasn't able to notice anything for that as well.

Anyway, my current understanding from what I could see on the blog is a metaphysical essence for the beings that are separated between the soul as a life force that keeps something alive and a heart that lets someone be its own self, to "exist". The heart is of course much more important in this setting, but that is everything that I could see.

 

[Bobsican]

While I can see the parallels with Hearts and the western understanding of a soul, there's one notable matter to mention...

Davy Jones wanted as a payment the soul of Jack Sparrow, and he's killed in the process. Sora also remarks after leaving Davy Jones' Locker that they're back on the land of the living, and they clearly still had a Heart the whole time for all we know in the same manner as Sora and others do out of falling to Davy Jones' Locker for other reasons (even displaying stuff like emotions without having to resort to memory). This same World also denotes the difference between the "metaphysical" Heart and the organ

While a Heart may have some features that would be within the western understanding of a soul, I think classifying Hearts as a (Western) soul is inappropiate as they're considered as separate things given the above, respectively.

 

[Executor_N0]

I think there was a lack of understanding here, as I said, names are useless and I'm not saying that they are one and the same (Although a series saying that they are different without elaborating on that wouldn't really say much, a structure stated in the show is basically the only way to be sure of what something "is").

What I said was entirely based on what was on that Nomura's interview. "To explain it simply, a person has a body, a soul, and a heart. As an image, the soul is the life source, without it a person would be dead. Since the heart doesn’t have a form, memories play an important part in forming a heart."

This general explanation does simply seems to state that what they call "soul" is the life force and what they call heart is the sense of self, what makes them them.

How we name them is useless. In the end, even just giving a generic "Metaphysical Essence" name would mean nothing, because that is exactly what a soul is, what a spirit is, what a mind is. Having different names for basically the same generic thing still puts that as the same generic thing. As I said, names are useless and structure and function are all that matter.

If needed to have a different naming on the profile to differentiate things, then be it. I do think that a revision on "Souls/Metaphysical Essences" to acknowledge the existence of multilayered systems would be a good way of fitting KH with its system and our own, that can't be confused by "concept something" (That was a problem that only now I noticed for the time I wanted a Metaphysical Essence page, people just wanted a way to get Conceptual Manipulation-like things out of that).

However, having the soul as a generic life force and the heart as "memories, feelings, sense of self" already explains basically anything in the setting that I could see. Maybe except by the fact that a body and soul can't "exist" without a Heart, except a Nobodies "nonexistence".

Plozible also gave a good explanation of the overall problem and how the application of "Nobodies' nonexistence" is a bit inconsistent, but I agree with having something for that. However even that I don't think would mean "conceptual manipulation".

That understanding might be from our pages stating how "a concept is necessary to something to exist" or "a concept is supposed to predate what it makes", but those are just generic information necessary to be there because it gives the easiest way to have something be "conceptual manipulation". Something can have all those characteristics or some of them and still not be conceptual manipulation, yet something else can not fit anywhere at that, yet the overall setting and structure are exactly what Conceptual Manipulation is.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I think there was a lack of understanding here, as I said, names are useless and I'm not saying that they are one and the same (Although a series saying that they are different without elaborating on that wouldn't really say much, a structure stated in the show is basically the only way to be sure of what something "is").

What I said was entirely based on what was on that Nomura's interview. "To explain it simply, a person has a body, a soul, and a heart. As an image, the soul is the life source, without it a person would be dead. Since the heart doesn’t have a form, memories play an important part in forming a heart."

This general explanation does simply seems to state that what they call "soul" is the life force and what they call heart is the sense of self, what makes them them.

How we name them is useless. In the end, even just giving a generic "Metaphysical Essence" name would mean nothing, because that is exactly what a soul is, what a spirit is, what a mind is. Having different names for basically the same generic thing still puts that as the same generic thing. As I said, names are useless and structure and function are all that matter.

If needed to have a different naming on the profile to differentiate things, then be it. I do think that a revision on "Souls/Metaphysical Essences" to acknowledge the existence of multilayered systems would be a good way of fitting KH with its system and our own, that can't be confused by "concept something" (That was a problem that only now I noticed for the time I wanted a Metaphysical Essence page, people just wanted a way to get Conceptual Manipulation-like things out of that).

However, having the soul as a generic life force and the heart as "memories, feelings, sense of self" already explains basically anything in the setting that I could see. Maybe except by the fact that a body and soul can't "exist" without a Heart, except a Nobodies "nonexistence".

Plozible also gave a good explanation of the overall problem and how the application of "Nobodies' nonexistence" is a bit inconsistent, but I agree with having something for that. However even that I don't think would mean "conceptual manipulation".

That understanding might be from our pages stating how "a concept is necessary to something to exist" or "a concept is supposed to predate what it makes", but those are just generic information necessary to be there because it gives the easiest way to have something be "conceptual manipulation". Something can have all those characteristics or some of them and still not be conceptual manipulation, yet something else can not fit anywhere at that, yet the overall setting and structure are exactly what Conceptual Manipulation is.

Does that mean that according to your interpretation Davy Jones wanted Jack's life force and not the soul as we would understand it? The fact that Vexen misunderstood Davy Jones' heart to be a metaphysical one instead of the organ implies that heart is precisely what the translation is supposed to say and while that alone isn't much of a proof for anything I have the impression that the heart stands far more for emotions than it does for one's sense of self which would be in line with the western understanding of a metaphorical heart as the center of emotion. There is also the fact that Nobodies can think and have memories without a heart but can't feel emotions.

 

[Executor_N0]

Does that mean that according to your interpretation Davy Jones wanted Jack's life force and not the soul as we would understand it? The fact that Vexen misunderstood Davy Jones' heart to be a metaphysical one instead of the organ implies that heart is precisely what the translation is supposed to say and while that alone isn't much of a proof for anything I have the impression that the heart stands far more for emotions than it does for one's sense of self which would be in line with the western understanding of a metaphorical heart as the center of emotion. There is also the fact that Nobodies can think and have memories without a heart but can't feel emotions.

I don't see how the emotions and memories are anything different than a sense of self when looking from the point of view of philosophies. There will be contradictions with this exact idea, but that is why I'm just talking as a generic explanation. Any series will have its own unique aspects of it, all that matters here is if that somehow fits with our definition of Conceptual Manipulation or not.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I don't see how the emotions and memories are anything different than a sense of self when looking from the point of view of philosophies. There will be contradictions with this exact idea, but that is why I'm just talking as a generic explanation. Any series will have its own unique aspects of it, all that matters here is if that somehow fits with our definition of Conceptual Manipulation or not.

Regardless of whether or not hearts qualify for Conceptual Manipulation I do not have the impression of them being supposed to be souls which is what I wanted to express.

 

[Executor_N0]

Regardless of whether or not hearts qualify for Conceptual Manipulation I do not have the impression of them being supposed to be souls which is what I wanted to express.

In the context of KH of course they aren't. But under our system that lacks any way of putting a difference in metaphysical essences we simply have no other alternative.

Changing our standards to qualify different systems of metaphysical essences would be the best way to deal with that. But every previous attempt to do that weren't accepted, which is sad in this situation.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

In the context of KH of course they aren't. But under our system that lacks any way of putting a difference in metaphysical essences we simply have no other alternative.

Changing our standards to qualify different systems of metaphysical essences would be the best way to deal with that. But every previous attempt to do that weren't accepted, which is sad in this situation.

I did notice that the Soul Manipulation page doesn't actually define souls or explains how verse-specific differences should be treated.

 

[Bobsican]

Also, I don't think we equalize any incorporeal "essence" to a soul (Or do we? I don't recall a standard over that to begin with).
I think we could just take individual Hearts as either a type 3 concept or type 2 info manip.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Also, I don't think we equalize any incorporeal "essence" to a soul (Or do we? I don't recall a standard over that to begin with).
I think we could just take individual Hearts as either a type 3 concept or type 2 info manip.

Weren't there also issues with hearts as information? Information Manipulation did go through some changes since then if I'm not wrong but does that cover the problems from back then? I can't say that I have the impression of hearts being information either.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm not sure either, but it's worth bringing up to see what the ones more aware on it think.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I'm not sure either, but it's worth bringing up to see what the ones more aware on it think.

Okay, but I'm definitely not in favor for hearts being information, so I'd need to see some pretty good arguments to be convinced.

 

[Bobsican]

Also, I recall the reason "proper" metaphysical standards weren't done was out of those simply either being concept manip/AE or info manip.

 

[Executor_N0]

If that is the reason, I still can't understand how the current Conceptual Manipulation page changed in any meaningful way to adapt to that

But if that is the case, then fair case.

 

[Bobsican]

As of this CRT, type 1 and 2 concepts don't require to be universal anymore, respectively, which may allow to argue for infividual Hearts being a type 1 concept out of being a subset that's bound to the true Kingdom Hearts.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Here's another response from him.

I’ve noticed a lot of this discussion has advanced from remarks I made, so I feel its appropriate I weigh in to clarify some details: there appear to be many misinterpretations.

Firstly, it really seems like supporters didn’t get the point of mentioning cultural differences or Executor’s clarifications:

“While a Heart may have some features that would be within the western understanding of a soul, I think classifying Hearts as a (Western) soul is inappropiate as they're considered as separate things given the above, respectively.”

This consensus was achieved because Davy Jones affects souls and because the heart was unaffected, that proves they can’t be the same thing…? Again, it is unhelpful to use the traditional definitions of these words, soul/mind and heart, from a Western perspective because the whole point was they possess different cultural meanings in the source material. The translation doesn’t properly convey the ideas behind these terms, it’s as simple as that. You guys are using the translated material to prove the translated material’s translations are fully correct. This is essentially using an improper source to prove that an improper source is right, which the problem from this should be incredibly apparent.

Then, there’s the points building off it:

“Does that mean that according to your interpretation Davy Jones wanted Jack's life force and not the soul as we would understand it? The fact that Vexen misunderstood Davy Jones' heart to be a metaphysical one instead of the organ implies that heart is precisely what the translation is supposed to say and while that alone isn't much of a proof for anything I have the impression that the heart stands far more for emotions than it does for one's sense of self which would be in line with the western understanding of a metaphorical heart as the center of emotion.”

The problem I have with this is that it simply just took everything presented as just an incorrect interpretation.

One of the blog sources from Nomura even has him saying, “To explain it simply, a person has a body, a soul, and a heart. As an image, the soul is the life source, without it a person would be dead.” The soul being life energy is not just a recommendation: it’s something explained by the creator, clarified by Ansem’s reports, and explicitly the meaning of the term translated into “soul” in the first place.

It is not that the translation is technically wrong as the problem. It does translate to soul as kokoro translates to heart. The problem is that the words take an altered meaning contextually in the English version. Language doesn’t always produce 1:1 words conveying the exact same idea across two if you compare them. That difference is even more jarring between Western and Eastern languages especially. I would expect Bob to at least understand this given Spanish is his primary language. Translations are helpful, but they do not supersede the source material.

It’s because of this that saying “it makes more sense that it is closer to the Western idea of heart” is just a fundamentally loaded and wrong idea. While Nomura says he’s interested in how overseas players interpret it, that’s more because cultural barriers produce a different understanding of context that’s not the same as the source material. This view is very obviously influenced from how the words carry over to the English version. At the end of the day, the source material takes priority over localizations always. That means we would take the more direct and accurate definitions of these words, the ideas stemming from Shintoism.

This was mentioned as well:

“Also, I don't think we equalize any incorporeal "essence" to a soul (Or do we? I don't recall a standard over that to begin with). I think we could just take individual Hearts as either a type 3 concept or type 2 info manip.”

I was not saying that the heart and the Western idea of a soul are the exact same thing. Ignoring the fact there is not a universal agreement behind the soul’s full attributes, I was roughly equating the two because they share many similarities. They are even utilized like “normal” souls in that they can be used to possess individuals or appear as an apparition. It’s a metaphysical aspect like Executor said that’s on a similar level as the mind or the soul. I don’t think equalizing it to a concept is any better. You’re positing it has a higher level of existence beyond just a core essence. There are a lot more things that come with being a concept that hearts very simply just do not have to back them being such, especially with DontTalk’s criticisms in mind. I am neutral on Information stuff.

There are really only two roads I see this taking. One, we call it a soul with some additional in-verse mechanics as that’s by far the best fit. Two, we call more staff on this thread to reconcile the issue and potentially initiate a site-wide initiative if there’s not a clear answer.

Last thing:

“As of this CRT, type 1 and 2 concepts don't require to be universal anymore, respectively, which may allow to argue for individual Hearts being a type 1 concept out of being a subset that's bound to the true Kingdom Hearts.”

We’ll play devil’s advocate for the sake of argument here.

When looking at your own blog references, the translated character entry for Marluxia mentions that rearranging memories allows one to reshape and command one’s heart too. Marluxia threatened to have Namine erase Sora’s memory, which would have destroyed his heart in turn. Memories may not govern the heart as the entry says, but they play an important role in forming one. Type 1 is based on Platonism: platonic forms exist independently of effects on the things they govern. If manipulating an aspect of the heart can affect it so drastically or even at all, it fails the fundamental criteria for a Type 1 concept.
https://www.kh13.com/news/larxenes-...ts-series-character-files-translations-r3279/


I would say they aren’t even Type 2 either. From my understanding, Type 3 concepts can be affected from their perception. Massive red flag, Oogie’s heart became unbalanced (changed) because he could recall his true memories. Doctor Finkelstein acknowledges the effect of memories on the heart too. Perception of one’s own memories may reshape their heart (we could possibly extend this idea to light and darkness too). Not only that, they are all part of a collective concept altogether, making them less pronounced in importance period.



While I would like an orderly conclusion too, you guys need to fully address the responses instead of dancing around them. It really obstructs discussion when you do that.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

"This consensus was achieved because Davy Jones affects souls and because the heart was unaffected, that proves they can’t be the same thing…? Again, it is unhelpful to use the traditional definitions of these words, soul/mind and heart, from a Western perspective because the whole point was they possess different cultural meanings in the source material. The translation doesn’t properly convey the ideas behind these terms, it’s as simple as that. You guys are using the translated material to prove the translated material’s translations are fully correct. This is essentially using an improper source to prove that an improper source is right, which the problem from this should be incredibly apparent."

Regardless of translation we do know that souls and hearts are both present as elements of the story. In this particular context it doesn't come across as Davy Jones trying to take a soul that is defined as life force and it seems unlikely that a mistranslation has happened here. Even if the translation doesn't fully convey the intentions of the Japanese developers the mere fact that both is present and used in different situations would make you think that there is a difference. Does Davy Jones use in Japanese the same word as the one used for heart there or does that not count either way because it conveys a different cultural idea of the soul?


"It is not that the translation is technically wrong as the problem. It does translate to soul as kokoro translates to heart. The problem is that the words take an altered meaning contextually in the English version. Language doesn’t always produce 1:1 words conveying the exact same idea across two if you compare them. That difference is even more jarring between Western and Eastern languages especially. I would expect Bob to at least understand this given Spanish is his primary language. Translations are helpful, but they do not supersede the source material.

It’s because of this that saying “it makes more sense that it is closer to the Western idea of heart” is just a fundamentally loaded and wrong idea. While Nomura says he’s interested in how overseas players interpret it, that’s more because cultural barriers produce a different understanding of context that’s not the same as the source material. This view is very obviously influenced from how the words carry over to the English version. At the end of the day, the source material takes priority over localizations always. That means we would take the more direct and accurate definitions of these words, the ideas stemming from Shintoism."

"-- Considering the conversation between Sora and Ventus in the ending of the Last Episode, is this saying that the "just-born heart" that Ventus connects with in the opening is Sora's?

Nomura: Yes. At first we supposed that it could be Sora before he was born, but because of opinions from overseas that "the heart doesn't exist until after birth", we discarded that portrayal." (https://www.khinsider.com/forums/in...mania-plot-mysteries-nomura-interview.147009/)

It does seem like as if Nomura did in fact consider western ideas of the heart considering that he would have gone with the idea of a heart existing before one's birth otherwise. The fact that he is working with Disney material which is western makes this fairly plausible in my opinion. While he obviously has his own ideas I don't think that this is devoid of western influence.


"I was not saying that the heart and the Western idea of a soul are the exact same thing. Ignoring the fact there is not a universal agreement behind the soul’s full attributes, I was roughly equating the two because they share many similarities. They are even utilized like “normal” souls in that they can be used to possess individuals or appear as an apparition. It’s a metaphysical aspect like Executor said that’s on a similar level as the mind or the soul. I don’t think equalizing it to a concept is any better. You’re positing it has a higher level of existence beyond just a core essence. There are a lot more things that come with being a concept that hearts very simply just do not have to back them being such, especially with DontTalk’s criticisms in mind. I am neutral on Information stuff.

There are really only two roads I see this taking. One, we call it a soul with some additional in-verse mechanics as that’s by far the best fit. Two, we call more staff on this thread to reconcile the issue and potentially initiate a site-wide initiative if there’s not a clear answer."

It's true that the Soul Manipulation page doesn't give a definition for souls but equating something to souls when souls are mentioned as something separate in the series is just weird. The same goes for minds as well. There is also the fact that Nobodies, the beings in the series that lack hearts, are fully capable of cognition and are instead characterized by a lack of emotion and nonexistence. I do agree that there is an overlap with what we'd usually think of as the soul but the differences are too big for me to ignore. Whether or not hearts are concepts doesn't matter as much to me as the question as what sort of ability manipulating hearts qualifies as and I'm currently opposed to hearts being treated as information. One thing that makes me rather averse to the idea of just classifying hearts as souls is the fact that this used to be how hearts were treated on the Wiki in the past which was changed once it was pointed out that the series differentiates between hearts and souls, so that would feel like a step back to me. I guess I can accept it if there's a good case for that but for now I'm not convinced.


"I would say they aren’t even Type 2 either. From my understanding, Type 3 concepts can be affected from their perception. Massive red flag, Oogie’s heart became unbalanced (changed) because he could recall his true memories. Doctor Finkelstein acknowledges the effect of memories on the heart too. Perception of one’s own memories may reshape their heart (we could possibly extend this idea to light and darkness too). Not only that, they are all part of a collective concept altogether, making them less pronounced in importance period."

I'd say that this case does have some special circumstances since the Oogie Boogie from this installation was a recreation from Sora's memories and Doctor Finkelstein made this conclusion based on what he was told. That being said, nothing points to him being wrong and the true memories obviously did have an effect regardless of the nature of the one who got them, so that's a fair point to raise. I'm not entirely sure how this works in regards to our standards for concepts but if this does have enough significance to be considered, then that's what should be done.


"While I would like an orderly conclusion too, you guys need to fully address the responses instead of dancing around them. It really obstructs discussion when you do that."

Didn't we discuss the topics you raised and even referenced your arguments though? In what way are we obstructing the discussion and who do you specifically have in mind here?

 

[Bobsican]

Also, I'm sure Nehz XZX did already ping those that were knowledgeable on CM and NEP in here, so we'd have to wait for further input,

 

[Bobsican]

Bump

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.
On another note, I found this:

Character's Report Vol. 2 Translations

[Character's Report Vol. 1 Translations] Ready for another blast from 2006? I did post half of these before, but here is the entire Vol. 2 report! Kingdom Hearts Character's Report Vol. 2 Leon I think the 'swordsman who guides Sora' role that he originally appeared with carried over nicely...

www.khinsider.com

Sephiroth
He was written as a symbol of Cloud's darkness, and it's possible that just maybe he was not a corporeal human entity at all. Perhaps the sequence of scenes involving them made players feel like they were being left behind, but I'd like you to think of that as a representation of a light and darkness that Sora, and thus you as players, cannot intervene in.
--Nomura


Tifa
As a symbol of light, like Sephiroth, it's possible that she too was incorporeal. That last scene where she goes off to search for Cloud, you could say, is a metaphor for how Cloud's light still hasn't lost him, even though he's disappeared off with his darkness, and it is trying to shine on him again… I'm pretty sure I didn't manage to get all that across very well.
--Nomura

Overall, even if the details are left up to interpretation on purpose, there's still the implication that light and darkness in this series are incorporeal, as Nomura mentions that Tifa would be if she's indeed Cloud's light, similarly to Sephiroth being his dsrkness, which supports that light and darkness aren't just a physical thing as in many other series, which covers the concern over them being no different from atoms or whatever.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Bump.
On another note, I found this:

Character's Report Vol. 2 Translations

[Character's Report Vol. 1 Translations] Ready for another blast from 2006? I did post half of these before, but here is the entire Vol. 2 report! Kingdom Hearts Character's Report Vol. 2 Leon I think the 'swordsman who guides Sora' role that he originally appeared with carried over nicely...

www.khinsider.com

Overall, even if the details are left up to interpretation on purpose, there's still the implication that light and darkness in this series are incorporeal, as Nomura mentions that Tifa would be if she's indeed Cloud's light, similarly to Sephiroth being his dsrkness, which supports that light and darkness aren't just a physical thing as in many other series, which covers the concern over them being no different from atoms or whatever.

Given that hearts contain light and darkness and hearts quite obviously aren't physical I didn't really need much convincing about light and darkness not being matter to begin with.

 

[Bobsican]

I recall DontTalk mentioned as a concern something among these lines from what I recall, so just in case.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I recall DontTalk mentioned as a concern something among these lines from what I recall, so just in case.

Okay, but he has yet to elaborate what he even means with ''fundamental substance'' despite you asking.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I've already expressed previously my opinion that hearts shouldn't be equated to souls but I feel like as if that can be further elaborated upon which is why I decided to make this post.

"Nomura: To explain it simply, a person has a body, a soul, and a heart. As an image, the soul is the life source, without it a person would be dead."

While this might seem like something that clearly equates the soul to the life source it is explicitly a simplified explanation with the life source being an image. It's not inaccurate but the fact that it is simplified inherently means that details were left out or altered in order to make it easier to understand. Given that the main role souls play in the series is allowing Nobodies to exist as independent beings with their own agenda the focus on the life-giving aspects of the soul is fairly understandable especially since the main point of the explanation isn't the soul but to illustrate what a heart is. In addition to that I'd argue that being the source of life doesn't actually limit you to just that unless explicitly stated though that makes practically no difference if no other aspects are displayed or stated.

"Where does the body go when it separates from the heart? If the soul remains within the body, is it still considered to be deceased? When the heart returns to the Heartless, the physical form disappears. But that is merely true in this world. Perhaps the body exists in another form in another world. If that is the case, then it is possible for one to exist in two worlds. A being that is neither darkness nor light; belonging nowhere; abandoned by its heart; a mere shell of its former self. The relation between the heart and body is complex. However, I am certain that if your self exists here, then by definition, the other cannot truly "exist."" (Ansem's Report 13)

Ansem reinforces the notion of the connection between the soul and life. It's interesting to note here that Ansem considers the body with a soul as another instance of himself that doesn't exist instead of a leftover with no memories or sense of self indicating that he doesn't bother doubting about the body-and-soul-being having mental faculties which wouldn't be the case if that was exclusive to the heart. Instead what he focuses on is how the "shell of its former self" cannot exist by definition.

"Three elements combine to create a life: a heart, a soul, and a body. But what of the soul and body left behind when the heart is lost? When the soul leaves the body, its vessel, life gives way to death, but what about when the heart leaves? A being does not perish when its heart leaves its body. The heart alone disappears into the darkness." (Secret Ansem Report 4)

Ansem the Wise also reinforces the idea of the soul being responsible for life. I'd also like to note that the usage of soul and life in the same sentence as part of an explanation indicates that the two things aren't exactly the same though that might simply be a matter of semantics or translation. If the soul is equivalent to life, then you wouldn't actually need to mention life before mentioning death and if the two are supposed to be the exact same, then there wouldn't be a point in using two terms for the same thing.

Xaldin: "You act as though you have a heart. When was the last time any of us felt anything?"

Yen Sid: "While Heartless act on instinct, Nobodies function in a higher manner. They can think and plan."

"Nobodies retain their memories of their time as humans" (Secret Ansem Report 12)

Nobodies are universally capable of thinking, planning and remembering in contrast to the instinctively acting Heartless yet are outright incapable of feeling emotions due to lacking hearts. If souls were only about life force and hearts were actually the souls as we understand them, then that would mean that Nobodies are emulating functions of hearts without having one despite it being repeatedly stressed that they are incapable of feeling emotions due to lacking a heart. If thoughts and memories were something exclusive to the heart with the soul only being life force, then that would logically mean for Nobodies that they wouldn't be able to think or remember anything which is evidently not the case.

Souls being able to support cognitive functions even without the heart, which is shown in multiple instances to be capable of that on its own as well, is supported by the fact that Terra's "mind" could possess his armor and act independent from his heart. Terra's heart in turn doesn't seem to have been affected from being separated from the mind that went on to possess the armor and Terra is shown holding conversations with Xehanort and Aqua while Xehanort was using his body further cementing that the mind possessing the armor is separate from his heart. Lingering Will is shown acting independently and making decisions, so there shouldn't be any doubt about it having a mind as we would understand it.

 

[PrinceofPein]

This is my first read so I may have missed some stuffs cause I know nothing about KH so you can correct me on anything you find wrong
At the beginning of the second part of the blog you said this

It has been made clear by now that hearts, which are made of light and darkness make up all that exists in the series

Do you mean reality in the series? Or just people with ‘heart’?
Cause nothing in the first part says heart makes up reality just that it is a crucial thing needed for living I am using crucial not fundamental because in the blog it was stated that “people with strong heart can go on living without their hearts” iirc while this qualifies for some NEP I guess but it is not really fundamental
Feel free to correct me if I misunderstood anything

While the Japanese version of KHIII doesn't mention the "conceptual" part, there's still the matter that the English version should have more priority here as it was the one intended to be "as directly as possible"[18].

This is wrong it’s like saying the photocopy should take precedence over the original, translators wanting to be direct as possible does not really matter as if they were they would not add something not in the original

Overall, hearts, which are made of light and darkness make up existence in a fashion fitting of a type 1 concept,

Do you mean all hearts are type 1 concepts? Cause that would saying all souls are type 1 concept cause they are what makes up a person
To clarify you mentioned that the KH existed before the universe, do all heart exist before the universe and the source of reality?

Also one of the scan says “a heart is lost when it falls into darkness then a nobody is created hence they become neither light or darkness “ iirc doesn’t this means losing your heart may not be in literal sense sometimes?

I didn’t really read other parts of the thread so maybe some of this have been addressed already but I will read the thread later on

 

[Bobsican]

This is my first read so I may have missed some stuffs cause I know nothing about KH so you can correct me on anything you find wrong
At the beginning of the second part of the blog you said this

Do you mean reality in the series? Or just people with ‘heart’?
Cause nothing in the first part says heart makes up reality just that it is a crucial thing needed for living I am using crucial not fundamental because in the blog it was stated that “people with strong heart can go on living without their hearts” iirc while this qualifies for some NEP I guess but it is not really fundamental
Feel free to correct me if I misunderstood anything

This is wrong it’s like saying the photocopy should take precedence over the original, translators wanting to be direct as possible does not really matter as if they were they would not add something not in the original

Do you mean all hearts are type 1 concepts? Cause that would saying all souls are type 1 concept cause they are what makes up a person
To clarify you mentioned that the KH existed before the universe, do all heart exist before the universe and the source of reality?

Also one of the scan says “a heart is lost when it falls into darkness then a nobody is created hence they become neither light or darkness “ iirc doesn’t this means losing your heart may not be in literal sense sometimes?

I didn’t really read other parts of the thread so maybe some of this have been addressed already but I will read the thread later on

Reality, yes, Hearts aren't restricted to just life, but to everything that exists (aka, Nobodies are the exception, but that's one of the reasons NEP is being argued for them), see here and here. There's also the whole plot of KHI going around the Hearts of Worlds and how they all were part of the KH of Worlds, which is in itself a subset of True KH, which unlike it existed before the universe.

Cultural differences can lead into another version simply getting better information that's still canon compared to even the original script's language (which the shown interview showcases to be the case here), so I wouldn't dismiss it just because the site usually prefers the original language.

Well, maybe, True KH should be fine as a type 1 concept as it was around before the universe and the existence of everything is bound to it. However, while its made of Hearts, each Heart is also born whenever another being is, meaning that a individual Heart doesn't exist until after birth, so either we get multiple types of CM here (one of manipulating True KH, and another for an individual Heart), or we just relate the fact that all Hearts regardless of origin and time they were born are a part of True KH and accept them as a type 1 concept.

I can give further scans on stuff or whatever if you're unsure on something.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Regarding the topic of hearts not being souls there is also the existence of Hades, a god governing death and the underworld, in the series. He trapped in KHII Auron's soul in a statue. There is also The Final World which is connected to death as well but is quite obviously not the underworld Hades governs.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Bump.