Pokémon Standards Part 2

[FinePoint]

So what are the conclusions here so far? It seems like most members here agree with most of the changes.

What's currently written in the sandbox has been accepted, and it seems most people disagree with adding more types.

What we're discussing now is ways to expand it to include more helpful standards, since this page will essentially become the guide for creating Pokémon profiles (assuming they know everything else there is to know about creating profiles).

Once it's done, it should probably be linked on the verse page and the editing rules page, since I believe we already have a Pokémon section there.

 

[theultimate5105]

Nah i changed hundreds of profiles there should be like a few dozen at worst

I found a dozen in alola alone.

 

[Antvasima]

What's currently written in the sandbox has been accepted, and it seems most people disagree with adding more types.

What we're discussing now is ways to expand it to include more helpful standards, since this page will essentially become the guide for creating Pokémon profiles (assuming they know everything else there is to know about creating profiles).

Once it's done, it should probably be linked on the verse page and the editing rules page, since I believe we already have a Pokémon section there.

Okay. That is probably fine.

 

[FinePoint]

Okay. That is probably fine.

Great. There's just three very minor issues I want to be sure on before we do so.

1.) Should Ice Types gain resistance to Absolute Zero?
Imaginym and Gyronutz are fine with it.
Medeus expressed some concerns with it, but re-reading their argument it seems they were arguing against immunity, but not resistance.
Saman said "That might be good, tho it depends on whether or not we want to include all specific applications of the types that aren't related to their basic definition."

2.) Should Ground Types be affiliated with Bone Manipulation?
There are only 4 bone moves in the game. One is ghost type because it's imbued with a spirit.
The other three are Ground Type, as well as Cubone, the most bonelike pokémon being Ground Type.
Personally I'm fine with this, as it seems to be their intention for non-possessed bone-related things to generally be Ground Type, but I'm not attached to the idea either.

3.) Is the following write-up good for a minimum stamina description for pokémon with no feats otherwise?
"Pokémon are hard-wired for battle, and are capable of fighting for a considerable time even while sustaining injuries from other pokémon."

 

[Arceus0x]

didn't we agree to deal with stamina later? I've got some feats for some of the mons

 

[Antvasima]

Great. There's just three very minor issues I want to be sure on before we do so.

1.) Should Ice Types gain resistance to Absolute Zero?
Imaginym, Gyronutz, and myself are fine with it.
Medeus expressed some concerns with it, but re-reading their argument it seems they were arguing against immunity, but not resistance.
Saman said "That might be good, tho it depends on whether or not we want to include all specific applications of the types that aren't related to their basic definition."

2.) Should Ground Types be affiliated with Bone Manipulation?
There are only 4 bone moves in the game. One is ghost type because it's imbued with a spirit.
The other three are Ground Type, as well as Cubone, the most bonelike pokémon being Ground Type.
Personally I'm fine with this, as it seems to be their intention for non-possessed bone-related things to generally be Ground Type.

3.) Is the following write-up good for a minimum stamina description for pokémon with no feats otherwise?
"Pokémon are hard-wired for battle, and are capable of fighting for a considerable time even while sustaining injuries from other pokémon."

What do the rest of you think?

 

[Lou_change]

Should Ice Types gain resistance to Absolute Zero?

Yes

Should Ground Types be affiliated with Bone Manipulation?

Probably but it would need to clarify it doesn’t prevent their bones from being manipulated. Also a little but off topic but as the person who brought it up I have something to say first how did you ignore this

Poison spikes are absorbed so all poison type would get limited absorption and it could be assumed black sludge is similar.

Second that was meant to be an example of abilities included by certain moves of a type how come that part is being skimmed over.
Personal gripes aside I fully agree with that.

Is the following write-up good for a minimum stamina description for pokémon with no feats otherwise?

It should be but we might want wait for a little bit before we choose to rely on that I think we could find better.

 

[Imaginym]

I'm kinda okay with Psychic type being Psychic Energy, & maybe Telekinesis. But there are some moves that don't fall under them.

 

[FinePoint]

Yes

Probably but it would need to clarify it doesn’t prevent their bones from being manipulated.

I feel this is already implied, otherwise we would word it as power null.

Also a little but off topic but as the person who brought it up I have something to say first how did you ignore this

I'm sorry, I must've missed it.
There has been a lot said in this thread and I've been trying to keep up with all of it, but I'm not perfect.

I believe that this absorption is far too specific to note, and more accurately falls under their resistance to poison anyways.

Second that was meant to be an example of abilities included by certain moves of a type how come that part is being skimmed over.
Personal gripes aside I fully agree with that.

Well, ultimately we are granting resistances by "certain moves", but we want it to be a range of moves which reflect the type as a whole.
For example, a single move with an obscure side effect or that contradicts other showings shouldn't be considered. Bones don't do that, because it's extremely easy to argue that bones are found in the ground.

It should be but we might want wait for a little bit before we choose to rely on that I think we could find better.

didn't we agree to deal with stamina later? I've got some feats for some of the mons

Well of course we can make a thread where we collect feats for specific mons, but I feel strongly that if we're going to establish a standard for featless mons that it should be now. Otherwise we'll have to backtrack and find every profile which we didn't touch stamina on after already applying a number of other revisions.

I would appreciate your three opinions in particular to the three questions above.
Except I forgot to add this question:

Acid Manipulation for poison type?
I know there's many damaging moves which describe using acid instead of poison.

 

[Lou_change]

I'm sorry, I must've missed it.
There has been a lot said in this thread and I've been trying to keep up with all of it, but I'm not perfect.

You're fine just I was a little annoyed but it shouldn't still be noted on the sandbox at least.

Acid Manipulation for poison type?
I know there's many damaging moves which describe using acid instead of poison.

Yeah that sounds good.

 

[FinePoint]

You're fine just I was a little annoyed but it shouldn't still be noted on the sandbox at least.

I don't think so.
Instead, it should just be noted in the description of Toxic Spikes (if at all).
It would be like saying Flying Types are immune to Spikes. It's far more useful to note on the move itself than bloat every single Poison Type with it.
Which makes me think we should do the same with Prankster.

 

[Antvasima]

Great. There's just three very minor issues I want to be sure on before we do so.

1.) Should Ice Types gain resistance to Absolute Zero?
Imaginym, Gyronutz, and myself are fine with it.
Medeus expressed some concerns with it, but re-reading their argument it seems they were arguing against immunity, but not resistance.
Saman said "That might be good, tho it depends on whether or not we want to include all specific applications of the types that aren't related to their basic definition."

2.) Should Ground Types be affiliated with Bone Manipulation?
There are only 4 bone moves in the game. One is ghost type because it's imbued with a spirit.
The other three are Ground Type, as well as Cubone, the most bonelike pokémon being Ground Type.
Personally I'm fine with this, as it seems to be their intention for non-possessed bone-related things to generally be Ground Type.

3.) Is the following write-up good for a minimum stamina description for pokémon with no feats otherwise?
"Pokémon are hard-wired for battle, and are capable of fighting for a considerable time even while sustaining injuries from other pokémon."

What do the rest of you think?

@DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz @KieranH10 @SamanPatou @Antoniofer @DragonGamerZ913 @Psychomaster35

 

[FinePoint]

(Plus should Poison Type be affiliated with Acid Manipulation?)

 

[Antoniofer]

I have my doubts with the Absolute Zero resistance, like, if they are immune to it (not just are unable to die due AZ, but also do not suffer damage) then they logically shouldn't be affected by other ice type attacks (unless you argue those are supernatural based or such). Are we sure that move is AZ, or that being unable to affect other ice type pkm is not due the move's own weakness?

As for the bone attacks, no, just cuz one attack is made using a bone does not means its bone manip (you do not gave bone manip to people that wields bone made weapons). As I stated previously, the typing most likely works more due attacks being infused by elemental energy.

 

[Imaginym]

I have my doubts with the Absolute Zero resistance, like, if they are immune to it (not just are unable to die due AZ, but also do not suffer damage) then they logically shouldn't be affected by other ice type attacks (unless you argue those are supernatural based or such). Are we sure that move is AZ, or that being unable to affect other ice type pkm is not due the move's own weakness?

That could be the case. In the anime, even Normal-type moves or basic things like Peck can have natural augmentation that do things like making glowing energy beaks or such to augment the part being used to attack.

& in the case of an Ice-type move, Ice Beam's most recent description says:
"The target is struck with an icy-cold beam of energy. This may also leave the target frozen."
So they may indeed be supernatural.
Of course, it could be that they're not all as cold as Sheer Cold, which is the basis of the Absolute Zero Resistance; Sheer Cold is a OHKO otherwise. (Curiously, like with Toxic for Poison-types, Sheer Cold is more accurate when used by an Ice-type Pokemon.)
It might also be that some use different levels of energy (more or less) than Sheer Cold or Ice Beam. We know Sheer Cold is Absolute Zero because that's it's Japanese name AND it's stated as such in its descriptions.

As for the bone attacks, no, just cuz one attack is made using a bone does not means its bone manip (you do not gave bone manip to people that wields bone made weapons). As I stated previously, the typing most likely works more due attacks being infused by elemental energy.

Didn't we have a Weapon Control revision about making controlling weapons not being Limited Telekinesis?
If things like Cubone controlling 1 or more bones for things like Bonemerang isn't Bone Manipulation nor Telekinesis, then what is it?
As far as I know, femur bones don't travel in boomerang trajectories when thrown.
(Though it may be notable that besides Cubone & Marowak, Lucario & Mandibuzz (But not their pre-evolutions.), can also learn Bone Rush, but not other Bone moves, similar to Lunala learning Zorua & Zoroark's signature move Night Daze.)

 

[Lou_change]

I have my doubts with the Absolute Zero resistance, like, if they are immune to it (not just are unable to die due AZ, but also do not suffer damage) then they logically shouldn't be affected by other ice type attacks (unless you argue those are supernatural based or such). Are we sure that move is AZ, or that being unable to affect other ice type pkm is not due the move's own weakness?

All other ice type moves have a physical aspect.

As for the bone attacks, no, just cuz one attack is made using a bone does not means its bone manip (you do not gave bone manip to people that wields bone made weapons). As I stated previously, the typing most likely works more due attacks being infused by elemental energy.

Bone club and bonerang don’t glow or anything like other moves that use elemental energy.

 

[Imaginym]

Bone club and bonerang don’t glow or anything like other moves that use elemental energy.

Bone Club doesn't glow with energy at all, for any of its several uses, but it's a little more dubious for Bonemerang.

Bonemerang (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

https://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/8/83/Alvin_Cubone_Bonemerang.png

However, other than Alvin's in that scan, every other instance of Bonemerang doesn't seem to glow.

Bone Rush (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Bone Rush regularly glows when used; However, almost all of the examples of it being used are it being used by Lucario, which conjures the bone to use, for obvious reasons.
The 1 anime scan where a Cubone does use Bone Rush, though, it does glow.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Hard disagree with any attempt to remove ABZ resistance for Ice types. That's like saying just because someone doesn't resist fire manipulation they shouldn't resist temperature manipulation (similar yet fundamentally different abilities) and it's kinda a double standard to spilt hairs like that with Pokémon.

Remember game developers aren't thinking about Vs debating when they call a type of damage as a "resistance" even tho under our standards it's "damage reduction".

I sincerely hope "weakness of the hax" doesn't become an overused term like "outlier".

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Keep in mind, there are far too many commonly overlooked facts about what any object that has mass getting frozen to absolute zero would entail. The only absolute zero object in the universe is pure empty space, and it's due to having not mass, heat capacity, ect and thus no thermal energy. But freezing objects till all their atoms and molecules come to a complete stop requires an infinite amount of work to successfully accomplish. And let's say I managed to freeze a drop of water to zero degrees Kelvin; in order for an object to have volume or thus mass greater than 0 but still have a specific temperature at absolute zero, said object would still need to have an infinite amount of internal fusion energy in order for such a thing to exist. And that can result in either the density being infinite or specific heat capacity also being infinite; having the former be infinite would make both so probably safer to just assume the latter. But that's the thing, it would scientifically be impossible to unfreeze such an object save for High 3-A levels of heat and/or atomization with even those being contested/debatable since comparing infinite to another infinite could go either way.

And basically, Absolute Zero resistance is in ways similar to the ability to survive inside a black hole. I'm not saying everyone with AZ manipulation should be High 3-A similar to how people aren't High 3-A via creating black holes, as most verses treat those abilities a specific hax/durability negation. Plus, even if your body can take being frozen at AZ without collapsing under your own density, simply throwing hardened ice blocks would also do 0 damage for the same reason. So, I can see a lot of skepticism for AZ resistance but I definitely think "Immunity" should not be a thing on any of the profiles.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus seems to make sense above. What do the rest of you think?

 

[Arceus0x]

Medeus seems to make sense above. What do the rest of you think?

I think i agree with simple resistance to AZ

 

[FinePoint]

(If AZ was realistic)

Medeus seems to make sense above. What do the rest of you think?

Well, the first part is sort of irrelevant since we already know fiction doesn't care about realism in this regard which is why we treat AZ as hax rather than using it for AP or calculations and such, so the important part of their argument is really: "If they're immune to absolute zero then why are they still harmed by attacks which aren't as cold?"

To which there are some possible explanations:
1.) As others have mentioned, ice attacks which they only resist involve AP rather than just hax.
2.) AZ is fundamentally different from mere cold temperatures for the reasons they've outlined, and so it's partly a false equivalence.

For example, it's believable that a character might die from being stuck in a freezer, but be fine if they're instantly frozen in cryogenic stasis for years. The fact that both are using cold isn't as important as how they're applied and what they do.

All that said, if accepted I do agree strongly that it would be listed as "Resistance", and not immunity, which would be an obvious NLF in this context.
As with all complex hax, resistance should be determined based on feats. There's plenty of characters in fiction who use and resist temperatures below AZ for example, as nonsensical as that is.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I have my doubts with the Absolute Zero resistance, like, if they are immune to it (not just are unable to die due AZ, but also do not suffer damage) then they logically shouldn't be affected by other ice type attacks (unless you argue those are supernatural based or such). Are we sure that move is AZ, or that being unable to affect other ice type pkm is not due the move's own weakness?

As for the bone attacks, no, just cuz one attack is made using a bone does not means its bone manip (you do not gave bone manip to people that wields bone made weapons). As I stated previously, the typing most likely works more due attacks being infused by elemental energy.

They survive it because its a kids franchise, so its a limited resistance. The reason why I bring it up is because if you can't die from AZ, you can't die from a temperature less cold than that either, so it is relevant to add it to a profile.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Honestly, i found "they resist it because its an kid franchise" is a dumb argument, no offense

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Honestly, i found "they resist it because its an kid franchise" is a dumb argument, no offense

Exactly, by that logic I can apply it to every main character who has plot armour

 

[GyroNutz]

Acid Manipulation for poison type?
I know there's many damaging moves which describe using acid instead of poison.

Acid is fine yeah, Poison moves commonly use either poisons or acid.

2.) Should Ground Types be affiliated with Bone Manipulation?
There are only 4 bone moves in the game. One is ghost type because it's imbued with a spirit.
The other three are Ground Type, as well as Cubone, the most bonelike pokémon being Ground Type.
Personally I'm fine with this, as it seems to be their intention for non-possessed bone-related things to generally be Ground Type, but I'm not attached to the idea either.

3.) Is the following write-up good for a minimum stamina description for pokémon with no feats otherwise?
"Pokémon are hard-wired for battle, and are capable of fighting for a considerable time even while sustaining injuries from other pokémon."

Bone Manipulation seems weird, most of the time the only "bone manipulation" is creating a bone to hit the opponents with. So I don't think that Pokemon that resist Ground type attacks should resist bone manipulation.

Stamina seems fine for now

 

[FinePoint]

Okay. I added Acid Manipulation to Poison Types and the Stamina write-up since neither seemed controversial.

That means the only thing left on the agenda is the AZ thing still.
It seems that "Resistance" is acceptable, but not "Immunity"?
People still seem divided.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Okay. I added Acid Manipulation to Poison Types and the Stamina write-up since neither seemed controversial.

That means the only thing left on the agenda is the AZ thing still.
It seems that "Resistance" is acceptable, but not "Immunity"?
People still seem divided.

Immunity is NLF anyways. And should I create a separate thread on why all pokemon should have minor resistance to AZ?

 

[Antvasima]

So what has been accepted here so far? Also, thank you for helping out, GyroNutz.

 

[Arceus0x]

we've been talking in the intelligence ratings thread about some stuff and it seems both the OP and Armorchompy agree with my proposal though the second proposal is still being discussed.

The first proposal is for all fully evolved pokemon to have a minimum of "Above average" intellect in combat. the reason was that most final evos can fight in between each other and they don't get instantly bodied and skillstomped when they fight the likes of machamp who would have genius combat skills.

The second proposal was the more controversial bit and that is to make all pokemon (with a few exceptions) "above average" in combat due to being hardwired for battle and constantly fighting the likes of machop who trains in all martial arts

 

[Antvasima]

we've been talking in the intelligence ratings thread about some stuff and it seems both the OP and Armorchompy agree with my proposal though the second proposal is still being discussed.

The first proposal is for all fully evolved pokemon to have a minimum of "Above average" intellect in combat. the reason was that most final evos can fight in between each other and they don't get instantly bodied and skillstomped when they fight the likes of machamp who would have genius combat skills.

The second proposal was the more controversial bit and that is to make all pokemon (with a few exceptions) "above average" in combat due to being hardwired for battle and constantly fighting the likes of machop who trains in all martial arts

@Starter_Pack @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @DragonGamerZ913 @The_real_cal_howard @Saikou_The_Lewd_King

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I never really had an issue with Above Average intelligence in combat due to being hard-wired for battle, though the added bit of fighting Pokemon like Machop that train in martial arts helps support this.

My vote's for the 2nd option

 

[GyroNutz]

Second proposal seems fine to me, though typically final evo Pokemon are more experienced than first/second stage Pokemon when it comes to combat.

 

[Lou_change]

Found the space time CRT

https://vsbattles.com/threads/space-time-manipulation-for-all-pokemon.108950/

 

[CloverDragon03]

Second proposal seems fine to me, though typically final evo Pokemon are more experienced than first/second stage Pokemon when it comes to combat.

Final evos could have something like: Above Average in combat (More experienced than first and second stage Pokemon, which are capable of fighting evenly with Machop, a Pokemon that trains in and is skilled at martial arts)

 

[GyroNutz]

Found the space time CRT

https://vsbattles.com/threads/space-time-manipulation-for-all-pokemon.108950/

Seems fine to include then. If we're including general abilities, then I'd like to suggest Pressure Points too. The Japanese version of a "Critical Hit" is "Pressure Point", and it says that a move has hit a pressure point instead of landing a critical hit. Technically any Pokemon is capable of this, but we could limit it to Pokemon that learn high critical hit ratio moves (e.g. Slash, Leaf Blade, Cross Chop), Focus Energy and Laser Focus.

Edit: And any Pokemon that gets Shell Armour, Battle Armour, etc should get Resistance to Pressure Points, though that's less general.

 

[Lou_change]

What about pokemon with Sniper as an ability.

 

[FinePoint]

we've been talking in the intelligence ratings thread about some stuff and it seems both the OP and Armorchompy agree with my proposal though the second proposal is still being discussed.

The first proposal is for all fully evolved pokemon to have a minimum of "Above average" intellect in combat. the reason was that most final evos can fight in between each other and they don't get instantly bodied and skillstomped when they fight the likes of machamp who would have genius combat skills.

The second proposal was the more controversial bit and that is to make all pokemon (with a few exceptions) "above average" in combat due to being hardwired for battle and constantly fighting the likes of machop who trains in all martial arts

Okay. So the following is what we're going for?

Below Average normally (Capable of coherent speech between other pokémon and a degree of understanding of commands and social situations, though still mostly driven by instinct), Above Average in battle (Pokémon are hard-wired for battle and even in the wild can master many moves and fight the likes of Machop which train in all martial arts), Higher in battle as [INSERT 3RD STAGE] (Should be superior to 1st and 2nd stage pokémon and are able to fight the likes of Machamp which have mastered all martial arts)

 

[Arceus0x]

Pretty much unless we go into specifics. This would be the minimum for most pokemon (aka, not magikarp)

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Why just above average? Have you seen a Pokemon fight before? They should be gifted