Cardfight!! Vanguard Speed Re-Upgrade

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If they know exactly where not to go or where to go on the planet based on something like a person, then I think Agnaa is right here.

They could easily decelerate and manoeuvre around the enemy if that were the case.

If it helps, there is a universe crossing feat or 2 done in the series where the locations position definitely isn’t known first if you want me to provide that.

 

[ByAsura]

I would not call that circling the planet. They had a smoothly trajectory coming from off-camera. That doesn't look like a mid-flight readjustment upon seeing the enemies they have to avoid.

Looking at the video again, it does seem like they only arrived at a slightly different trajectory.

While the wording on the page isn't that explicit, the threads had this topic brought up, and it was concluded that the burden of proof is to show that there are obstacles and that characters did not decelerate. Which hasn't been sufficiently demonstrated here.

Guess you're kind of right, to an extent.

Just wondering, how exactly do these characters travel? I know they travel as souls (or something), but is there anything on them having totally manoeuvrable Superman-like flight in this state.

I don't think the slight indication of "They had a thing to do at their destination!" counts as proof that they didn't slow down until they were 1m away from the surface.

I would also like to remind you and others in this thread that, for their reactions to scale to the full value, they would have to be moving at full-speed and not perceive an obstacle until it was 1m away, before avoiding it.

Even if they travelled to another galaxy in seconds (I've been told it's actually another universe entirely that they crossed) and were 10,000 km away before reacting, it'd give them reactions billions of times the speed of light.

This is why the verse mechanics of flight here are important.

Edit: Did they even need to make an attempt to avoid the enemy? If not, then it seems like they just randomly landed on one huge part of the planet. We need a lot more context here in order to claim this feat is valid.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't think the slight indication of "They had a thing to do at their destination!" counts as proof that they didn't slow down until they were 1m away from the surface.

I would also like to remind you and others in this thread that, for their reactions to scale to the full value, they would have to be moving at full-speed and not perceive an obstacle until it was 1m away, before avoiding it. If they slowed down a certain amount beforehand, or if they reacted from a larger distance, that would reduce the amount they scale to.

To address this, my point on the slowdown not happening that early wasn’t to mean they wouldn’t slow until 1 meter away from the location pre landing.

This was why that on the previous thread, I gave the lowball of using cloud height since after passing the clouds would be when they see the landing spot.

 

[Agnaa]

If it helps, there is a universe crossing feat or 2 done in the series where the locations position definitely isn’t known first if you want me to provide that.

Discussion about this verse's speed (and downstream topics) has been going on for 812 posts, and you only bring that up now? ffs this shit just doesn't end...

I'd like to say "no" because this has already been so draining, but that sounds like a promising way to argue for it scaling.

Just wondering, how exactly do these characters travel? I know they travel as souls (or something), but is there anything on them having totally manoeuvrable Superman-like flight in this state.

Kukui provided another clip where a character started flying, it cut away panning in on that character hovering above a pool of lava or smth. That's the most evidence that I've been shown for totally maneuverable flight.

Even if they travelled to another galaxy in seconds and were 10,000 km away before reacting, it'd give them reactions billions of times the speed of light.

Right, but the only calc for them is crossing the observable universe in 3 seconds. There's not a "billions of times SoL" calc that people are agreeing to scale them to.

If some prospective calc like that is what people are arguing for, then that's much better, at least.

 

[ByAsura]

Given the supposedly manoeuvrable flight, apparent lack of in-verse mechanics, and speed of the creature, disregarding this feat will most likely be the avenue we take.

Right, but the only calc for them is crossing the observable universe in 3 seconds. There's not a "billions of times SoL" calc that people are agreeing to scale them to.

That's really just splitting hairs, if not graphene. The point was more that even absolute lowest result (not even the lowest, just a number arbitrarily lowered by thousands) will give MFTL+ reactions.

@Kuki

Edit: Did they even need to make an attempt to avoid the enemy? If not, then it seems like they just randomly landed on one huge part of the planet. We need a lot more context here in order to claim this feat is valid.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kuki

Wont let me quote that part of the comment for some reason, but to answer.

The reason I argued for this enemy to be a potential obstacle is that the characters by this point in the series had very very little details and information to go off of knowing this enemy. From their PoV, all they knew is that it was invading the planet and it's power proves fatal to them, no deeper specifics than this.

So when they approach the ocean part of the planet where the enemies presence is already located at and spreading, they wouldn't be able to discern the enemies presence until getting close enough to the planet to discern it's the enemies presence before changing trajectory to the land area.

For more context on the "land area" ByAsura, the land area of the planet is a location these guys were searching for as well as they desired to find a location on the planet where other Units were fighting so they could confirm something they needed to happen involving them happened.

 

[ByAsura]

Very little specifics hurts more than helps, in this case.

The thing is, though, they aren't really shown to change their trajectory.

So they go on the spot they specifically wanted to land on? That makes this seem invalid.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The thing is, though, they aren't really shown to change their trajectory.

So they go on the spot they specifically wanted to land on? That makes this seem invalid.

Well for the trajectory change goes, I gave newer better evidence of this that proves trajectory more explicitly. Here it is:

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/574596090788315196/899205655209078784/image0.png

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/574596090788315196/900127859673268284/image0.png

The spot on the planet circled in red is where they were traveling to when approaching the planet and entering its atmosphere. And as im sure you can see, that location is clearly not any body of land. This would be the ocean.

And the landing location they wanted to go to isn't the ocean, but land.

So what had to have happened here was some sort of trajectory change, or else they would not be landing on land. They would be landing in the ocean.

Now, after rewatching something, there are new more explicit parameters we can use for this that take less assumption and are easier to work with here for claiming trajectory. On a more explicit basis.

Now as I said, the landing spot these guys went to is where Units on Cray were battling each other. So that means the body of land on Cray they landed at is where the Units battlefield is. Luckily for us, the series at an earlier scene actually shows us what continent or country they'd be fighting in

In an earlier scene, we can actually see directly what body of land they’re fighting on. There’s explosions on this continent/country coming from the fighting Units as we see Crays geography from space in an earlier scene.

A continent with clouds above it as well:

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/574596090788315196/900134154396659762/image0.jpg

Now, as we see the characters approach the planet from outer space, that same continent shown before is shown here too when they approach that side of the planet. However, they don't go straight to it as shown here. They go past it.

Circled in blue are the characters. Circled in red is the continent:

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/574596090788315196/900142924250099722/image0.png

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/574596090788315196/900142221624496208/image0.png

These should be easier parameters to work with then what I argued before, which may or may not change things going forward, but this should suffice all the same way.

This should be proof that shows exactly where the landing location they wanted to land at is on the planet. And this should be proof of the characters not flying directly to the location as they fly towards the ocean, past it. So the only way they could land on the continent as the target location instead of the ocean is if they changed trajectory within the atmosphere of the planet.

The distance the trajectory would be made in the atmosphere is also supported by them heading towards the planets ocean until they go out of view.


https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/574596090788315196/900170342784438322/image0.png


https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/574596090788315196/900170543389605988/image0.png


https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/574596090788315196/900170698419490907/image0.png

And then afterwards land on the continent. They would by default have to have changed trajectory somewhere within the planets atmosphere. If this wasn’t the case, they wouldn’t have continued moving toward the ocean but changed trajectory much much sooner than that. Like in outer space before going that far. So the distance for trajectory, roughly, should be cloud height from the planet surface.

The enemy being an obstacle was something to add onto this as more better proof of maneuvering (at least, as an attempt to).

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with the upgrade

 

[ByAsura]

Given that there's a huge explosion of light on that specific spot, couldn't they have landed first and then changed position?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Given that there's a huge explosion of light on that specific spot, couldn't they have landed first and then changed position?

Oh do you mean this light?

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/574596090788315196/900142924250099722/image0.png

 

[ByAsura]

Never mind, I was conflating two different scenes.

 

[Agnaa]

To reiterate my view on that from the last thread, you could see that as an animation error (since nothing else indicated a trajectory change or early landing somewhere else, and drawing them coming in a bit to the right of a continent seems like an easy continuity error to gloss over).

But that still, there could've easily been enough slowdown within that region of time to make the trajectory change not much of a feat, and I don't think the stuff about them needing to be there to learn about the enemy indicates that such a slowdown shouldn't have happened.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Never mind, I was conflating two different scenes.

Gotcha. Anyway, as I said before, I could show you another universe flight feat from the series where the flyer shouldn't have known the locations position if this could help.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

To reiterate my view on that from the last thread, you could see that as an animation error (since nothing else indicated a trajectory change or early landing somewhere else, and drawing them coming in a bit to the right of a continent seems like an easy continuity error to gloss over).

But that still, there could've easily been enough slowdown within that region of time to make the trajectory change not much of a feat, and I don't think the stuff about them needing to be there to learn about the enemy indicates that such a slowdown shouldn't have happened.

Well, putting aside the animation error point, this sorta returns back to my question on the character being in a rush and whether or not it can be used over the default assumption that they slowed. Along with the cloud point that reacting could start after discerning the landing spot is in fact the place they want to land at (and where the cloud height lowball distance could be used).

 

[Agnaa]

If they spent 0.1 seconds longer they'd still be in the human ranges of reaction. Incorporating the 1000x decrease from reacting from at least 1km away, if they spent 0.0001 seconds longer they'd still be in the human ranges of reaction.

I don't think that's something to rule out even if they're "in a rush".

EDIT: And hell, looking at it as them "deciding to take longer" is probably the wrong angle to be looking at it from. If they can't react faster, even when rushing, they'd HAVE to take longer. What's trying to be proven is that they can react faster. It strikes me now that the argument of "They're rushing, so they must have fast reactions" is kinda circular.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If they spent 0.1 seconds longer they'd still be in the human ranges of reaction. Incorporating the 1000x decrease from reacting from at least 1km away, if they spent 0.0001 seconds longer they'd still be in the human ranges of reaction.

I don't think that's something to rule out even if they're "in a rush".

This is for the landing scene specifically right? Like after passing the clouds and then landing?

 

[Agnaa]

This is for the landing scene specifically right? Like after passing the clouds and then landing?

Are there multiple scenes being talked about here?

Also, since you didn't quote it, I'll assume I edited my post after you saw it, and repost it now:

EDIT: And hell, looking at it as them "deciding to take longer" is probably the wrong angle to be looking at it from. If they can't react faster, even when rushing, they'd HAVE to take longer. What's trying to be proven is that they can react faster. It strikes me now that the argument of "They're rushing, so they must have fast reactions" is kinda circular.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Are there multiple scenes being talked about here?

So, I'll take this as a yes then?

Also, since you didn't quote it, I'll assume I edited my post after you saw it, and repost it now:

Well the point for "rushing" isn't that they necessarily have fast reactions (this can be discerned by what happens after the landing and other details) but that they would have a reason to not slow down.

 

[Agnaa]

So, I'll take this as a yes then?

Take it as confusion.

Well the point for "rushing" isn't that they necessarily have fast reactions (this can be discerned by what happens after the landing and other details) but that they would have a reason to not slow down.

The reason to slow down would be their lack of fast reactions.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So, I'll take this as a yes then?

Take it as confusion.

Im just asking a question for a yes or no clarification, because If yes, I was gonna say the timeframe for the landing might be smaller than 0.1.

Well the point for "rushing" isn't that they necessarily have fast reactions (this can be discerned by what happens after the landing and other details) but that they would have a reason to not slow down.

The reason to slow down would be their lack of fast reactions.

Okay, so I guess this returns me to the above question I asked real quick.

 

[Agnaa]

Im just asking a question for a yes or no clarification, because If yes, I was gonna say the timeframe for the landing might be smaller than 0.1.

I was thinking about the feat in the OP with a video.

But hey, if the timeframe would be smaller than 0.1, then great! We can calc reactions off of that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okie. Well as I said, the landing scene might be smaller than 0.1. If it checks out properly, the time from when they begin passing the clouds and the time they land is 40 milliseconds. Or 0.04.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah so Superhuman reactions. It's an upgrade, but not a huge one.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay good, we're getting somewhere.

So to return to one of the above points, would it be acceptable to use the cloud height as a lowball like how I pointed out before?

 

[Agnaa]

Maybe you'd wanna do different ends for cloud height and edge of the atmosphere? idk but whatever calc group members think to be reasonable should work.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Maybe you'd wanna do different ends for cloud height and edge of the atmosphere? idk but whatever calc group members think to be reasonable should work.

Cloud height I did in the last thread if you remember, 2 KM since thats the difference between the planets surface and the lowest cloud level. Gave MFTL+ reactions 2000x lower than the travel speed.

Whats the height of the atmosphere again?

 

[Agnaa]

Cloud height I did in the last thread if you remember, 2 KM since thats the difference between the planets surface and the lowest cloud level. Gave MFTL+ reactions 2000x lower than the travel speed.

Right but that assumes no slowdown. From my quick calc, using 2km distance and 0.04 seconds as timeframe would give 50,000 m/s, MHS.

tbh I don't know exactly how we calc reactions for stuff like this, idk if the 2km distance makes it better or worse.

EDIT: After thinking about it, I think it cancels out to no effect? That it's mainly the timeframe that matters for calculating reaction feats like this? Which would just have it be Superhuman.

Whats the height of the atmosphere again?

100km is where the Karman Line starts, and is conventionally considered the start of space.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Right but that assumes no slowdown. From my quick calc, using 2km distance and 0.04 seconds as timeframe would give 50,000 m/s, MHS.

Okay, so my guess is the determining factor here is if there's no slowdown or is slowdown and if the reasons for rushing to not slow would be valid to not slow.

Though, to take another conservative route for devils advocate on slowdown, we could make the speed 2x or 3x lower for an even further lowball, but still factoring in a rush to the location for adhere to both.

If 2x lower, and using 2KM distance (or 2000 meters), that makes the reactions 8.177e-15

If 3x slower, they'd be 1.22661e-14

100km is where the Karman Line starts, and is conventionally considered the start of space.

Okie. I'll do the same thing as above but use this height now. Factoring in no slowdown and slowdown by the same ends

With no slowdown and using the full travel speed, with 100 KM, the reactions are 2.044e-13

If making the travel speed 2x lower, the reactions are 4.089e-13

If 3x lower, they come to be 6.133071e-13

 

[Agnaa]

Those would be valid for no slowdown, but I think they're insultingly fast for a way of incorporating slowdown.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Those would be valid for no slowdown, but I think they're insultingly fast for a way of incorporating slowdown.

Oh? I thought we determined reactions by dividing the distance and speed?

 

[Agnaa]

Oh? I thought we determined reactions by dividing the distance and speed?

That's correct, but saying that the "conservative route for devils advocate on slowdown" is having them be 2-3x slower is laughable.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Oh? I thought we determined reactions by dividing the distance and speed?

That's correct, but saying that the "conservative route for devils advocate on slowdown" is having them be 2-3x slower is laughable.

Why would it be? Cutting the speed in half or more than that with a 3x slow is already a pretty big low end, and this with taking rushing into account too.

 

[Agnaa]

Going from "Speeds that cross the observable universe in 3 seconds" to "Speeds that cross the observable universe in 9 seconds" is not a "pretty big low-end". Being 0.00000000000001 seconds slower is not a "pretty big low-end".

If we considered being 2-3x slower being a reasonable low-end for slowdown amount, we would've written into the standards that potential slowdown just drops the scaling by 2-3x, instead of saying potential slowdown disqualifies them from scaling.

And again, saying "They were rushing therefore they didn't slow down" is circular logic. If they don't have fast reactions, no matter how much they rushed, they would have had to slow down.

 

[AKM sama]

You can't put a random value for their speed and calculate reactions based on that. The decrease in their speed would be unquantifiable, because they'd need to slow down as much as possible to be able to match their reaction in order to land.

 

[Quangotjokes]

I think it needs to be address that the travel speed is vastly above combat speed in the series as a whole. It should I'm no way never scale as it's very much inconsistent with the verse.

You're trying to upgrade reaction to mftl when in the context of the verse they cannot dodge lightning. It is a consistent standard in the verse. Scaling combat to flight will inflate the reaction speed far past where it's actually shown to be.

Here are examples:

1:02:40 Summons lightning to attack units

1:06:00 summons lightning again



12:25

Dog unit struck by natural lightning



18:50

Top 3 clan leaders struck by lightning

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I think it needs to be address that the travel speed is vastly above combat speed in the series as a whole. It should I'm no way never scale as it's very much inconsistent with the verse.

You're trying to upgrade reaction to mftl when in the context of the verse they cannot dodge lightning. It is a consistent standard in the verse. Scaling combat to flight will inflate the reaction speed far past where it's actually shown to be.

Again, we’ve explained to time and time again that this “dodging lightning” shit doesn’t matter because they’re attacks FROM OTHER UNITS. Stop bringing this up over and over again.

Here are examples:

1:02:40 Summons lightning to attack units

An attack from a Unit. Scales to the Units speed.

1:06:00 summons lightning again

Same thing.

12:25

Dog unit struck by natural lightning

Aichi was riding Blaster Blade here on top of Wingal, who Aichi was using beforehand and is obviously not going to move This is also not an anti feat.

18:50

Top 3 clan leaders struck by lightning

An attack from Void. Scales to the Units speed

Me and other users already debunked this in the previous thread. These are attacks from other beings, not natural lightning on its own. Attacks from opponents that would scale.

Do not bring this up again.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Going from "Speeds that cross the observable universe in 3 seconds" to "Speeds that cross the observable universe in 9 seconds" is not a "pretty big low-end". Being 0.00000000000001 seconds slower is not a "pretty big low-end".

If we considered being 2-3x slower being a reasonable low-end for slowdown amount, we would've written into the standards that potential slowdown just drops the scaling by 2-3x, instead of saying potential slowdown disqualifies them from scaling.

Again, the lower values take rushing into account, which the standards don’t when saying slowing disqualifies scaling.

And again, saying "They were rushing therefore they didn't slow down" is circular logic. If they don't have fast reactions, no matter how much they rushed, they would have had to slow down.

Considering the timeframe of the landing scene, we already determined that the reactions from them aren’t slow.

And this is problematic because if a character has for any reason a justification to not slowdown, then how is their full speed ever gonna be able to be used?

 

[Quangotjokes]

Again, we’ve explained to time and time again that this “dodging lightning” shit doesn’t matter because they’re attacks FROM OTHER UNITS. Stop bringing this up over and over again.

Why would it matter if its from other units? It's still lightning. Lightning has a set speed in general.

1:02:30

Kai even states "Noone can stop an assault that strikes out at the speed of light"

If they're mftl in reaction then why would light speed be an issue for them? Let's not Ignore context here Kukui.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Why would it matter if its from other units? It's still lightning. Lightning has a set speed in general.

Uh, no it’s not. Otherwise we wouldn’t have lighting users on this site faster than lightning speed.