DC Street Tier Speed Revision

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Can't believe this has yet to be fixed, but the MHS calcs for DC Comics are straight up wrong and have been known to be wrong for like 2 years.

DC Speed Feats Recalculations + New Calculations

vsbattles.fandom.com

Calculations to pick from. Hypersonic+ seems like the most consistent, although Cassandra Cain does have some MHS to MHS+ feats but some have questioned the legitimacy of the lightning ones, and she's kinda faster than the rest of the street tiers. More input is appreciated.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, the Katana feat has been infamous for years so I agree with that new calculation. Other calculations look fine, but neutral on the lightning examples. I know it's hard to tell if some of those can count as real lightning; though Static's lightning is at least considered having functions similar to machine generated electricity at bare minimum. I heard of some people mentioning Batman having his own feats of reacting to cloud to ground lightning, but I have not seen any sources.

However, I think Hypersonic to Hypersonic+ sounds pretty solid.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Batman's feat is Hypersonic+ but he performed that with a broken back while Cassandra Cain's bullet timing one is High Hypersonic+ with Massively Hypersonic reactions. She's supposed to be faster but not overwhelmingly. The Katana feats are only Hypersonic though.

 

[LordTracer]

She's supposed to be faster but not overwhelmingly.

Well…

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Eh I know there are instances of such but would it cause any scaling issues? Or can it be explained by comics "holding back" bullshit

 

[Hellbeast]

I definitely think we could take the Massively Hypersonic stuff as an outlier but idk

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

bump

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Cassandra Cain isn't overwhelmingly faster, usually it's just her pre cog that allows her to avoid attacks from other martial artists but people like Tim Drake or Nightwing or Batman have tagged her in combat even when he had that pre cog.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Replacing the flawed calc seems like a straightforward fix, I agree

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

So is Hypersonic+ the consensus or should we use the MHS feat for Cain?

 

[Hellbeast]

Hypersonic+ is good for me

 

[LordTracer]

I would go with Hypersonic+ for the majority and High Hypersonic+ for Cass, seems more consistent.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Cass would be 7 times faster though, although you could argue Batman was injured when he performed the Hypersonic+ feat

 

[LordTracer]

The issue is that she does outspeed Batman the majority of the time, there’s even a feat listed on her profile where she hits him so fast that he doesn’t even perceive it.

Looking around, I’ve found that Deathstroke could dodge one punch from Cass while overall being outsped, an angry Nightwing could tag her twice (although I don’t think Cass was going all-out here) and Rose could keep up with Cass (although Cass did imply that it was because of precog).

So… how about High Hypersonic+ for Cass (and also Lady Shiva and people that scale to her) and Hypersonic+, at most High Hypersonic+ for everyone else?

 

[LordTracer]

Bump

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

It does seem like there is a noticeable gap between Cassandra Cain and co with the other street tiers.

"At least Hypersonic+, likely far higher" could be fine for Batman solely based on the fact that he did that feat with a broken back.

 

[KLOL506]

It does seem like there is a noticeable gap between Cassandra Cain and co with the other street tiers.

"At least Hypersonic+, likely far higher" could be fine for Batman solely based on the fact that he did that feat with a broken back.

I guess we could keep Cassandra Cain at MHS then? Since she is swifter.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

It's HHS+ with MHS reactions.

Unless you're referring to the lightning feats?

 

[LordTracer]

I’m not sure if the lightning feat is really usable for her, I re-read that comic recently and unless I just missed it, Agrippina’s attacks are never actually stated to be lightning or lightning speed.

 

[KLOL506]

It's HHS+ with MHS reactions.

Unless you're referring to the lightning feats?

ye, referring to those.

 

[LordTracer]

Bump

 

[LordTracer]

Bump

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

The issue is that she does outspeed Batman the majority of the time, there’s even a feat listed on her profile where she hits him so fast that he doesn’t even perceive it.

Looking around, I’ve found that Deathstroke could dodge one punch from Cass while overall being outsped, an angry Nightwing could tag her twice (although I don’t think Cass was going all-out here) and Rose could keep up with Cass (although Cass did imply that it was because of precog).

So… how about High Hypersonic+ for Cass (and also Lady Shiva and people that scale to her) and Hypersonic+, at most High Hypersonic+ for everyone else?

Cassandra has outright stated Slade is stronger, faster and smarter than her

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

We should honestly look for more dc street tier feats

 

[LordTracer]

Cassandra has outright stated Slade is stronger, faster and smarter than her

1) When?
2) Their fights show otherwise.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

1) When?
2) Their fights show otherwise.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Also, how do their fights show otherwise? Here, they are equally matched, yet Cassandra notes Slade's toying with her. He definitely scales.

 

[LordTracer]

Here, they are equally matched, yet Cassandra notes Slade's toying with her. He definitely scales.

“Equally matched”
No, they are not lmao. Cass dodges literally everything Slade throws at her except the net and still proceeds to completely outmaneuver him at the end.

Also…

Also Slade himself thinks that the only ways to beat Cass are by getting in her head or at a distance, which he immediately after says is the only reason he’s able to hit her. So like I said earlier, at best, Slade should downscale and have an “at most High Hypersonic+”

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

“Equally matched”
No, they are not lmao. Cass dodges literally everything Slade throws at her except the net and still proceeds to completely outmaneuver him at the end.

Also…

Also Slade himself thinks that the only ways to beat Cass are by getting in her head or at a distance, which he immediately after says is the only reason he’s able to hit her. So like I said earlier, at best, Slade should downscale and have an “at most High Hypersonic+”

Deathstroke really likes flattering her, dude's pretty smart, and in that particular instance, was blatantly shown to say that merely to distract her. And regardless of that, Slade still dodged a few attacks and wasn't taking the fight seriously, both from Cassandra's monologue, and his own last statement ("so close... yet so far", as Cass narrowly misses his head with a sword).
Then again, Cassandra's own statement of Slade being superior in every way.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Note that her statement about Slade being faster comes from the same fight where she seemingly outmaneuvers gum and he was toying with her.

 

[LordTracer]

Deathstroke really likes flattering her, dude's pretty smart, and in that particular instance, was blatantly shown to say that merely to distract her.

Yeah, no, Slade straight up said “That’s why I can do this” after he said he can only beat Cass at a distance or by getting in her head, which pretty blatantly shows that he thinks he can only do that because he’s already in her head. It was not merely a distraction.

And regardless of that, Slade still dodged a few attacks and wasn't taking the fight seriously, both from Cassandra's monologue, and his own last statement ("so close... yet so far", as Cass narrowly misses his head with a sword)

She didn’t miss, she literally just stopped cause, y’know, shoving a sword between Slade’s eyes would probably kill him. You do realize that Cass doesn’t kill people, right? Also in Cass’ monologue, she immediately after said that she was bringing the fight to her own terms, and guess what, after she did that, she completely outplayed him.

Note that her statement about Slade being faster comes from the same fight where she seemingly outmaneuvers gum and he was toying with her.

So a statement contradicting feats. Also I noticed that you didn’t say anything about that other fight they had.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Yeah, no, Slade straight up said “That’s why I can do this” after he said he can only beat Cass at a distance or by getting in her head, which pretty blatantly shows that he thinks he can only do that because he’s already in her head. It was not merely a distraction.

She didn’t miss, she literally just stopped cause, y’know, shoving a sword between Slade’s eyes would probably kill him. You do realize that Cass doesn’t kill people, right? Also in Cass’ monologue, she immediately after said that she was bringing the fight to her own terms, and guess what, after she did that, she completely outplayed him.

So a statement contradicting feats. Also I noticed that you didn’t say anything about that other fight they had.

Of course it's pretty hard to attack someone who has you pinned down. And don't forget that he hit her with a bob, which should slow his swing speed down. And she had her guard completely down, which means that by distracting her, Slade gained an extra advantage of her not trying to soften the blow some way, etc.
About their first fight, Slade was holding back, it's really all we need to know. Plus, he likely wanted to prove a point to Cass with her being unable to kill him. If he thought she'd be actually willing to do so, he wouldn't let her get this close to him with his sword. Her saying he's faster isn't a baseless statement. He toyed with her all throughout the fight, she knows it. She outright said that he's "faster than this. stronger than this".
As for the second fight, judging by the one we just discussed and Slade's attitude, he's testing her as well, evident by him saying "oh, you're good". That's not something you'd exactly say to someone you see can blitz your ass.
P.S. Also, the way she outmaneuvers him is not even through sheer speed but rather agility: she's much more acrobatic than him.

 

[LordTracer]

Of course it's pretty hard to attack someone who has you pinned down. And don't forget that he hit her with a bob, which should slow his swing speed down. And she had her guard completely down, which means that by distracting her, Slade gained an extra advantage of her not trying to soften the blow some way, etc.

Slade was not referring to that exact scenario they were in lol, he was very clearly talking in general. Hell, he even referred to a previous fight, showing that he’s not just talking about that one moment.

About their first fight, Slade was holding back, it's really all we need to know. Plus, he likely wanted to prove a point to Cass with her being unable to kill him. If he thought she'd be actually willing to do so, he wouldn't let her get this close to him with his sword. Her saying he's faster isn't a baseless statement. He toyed with her all throughout the fight, she knows it. She outright said that he's "faster than this. stronger than this".

Cass literally subverted him “toying with her” immediately after saying that and then dunked on him, sooooooo

As for the second fight, judging by the one we just discussed and Slade's attitude, he's testing her as well, evident by him saying "oh, you're good". That's not something you'd exactly say to someone you see can blitz your ass.

That’s low-key just your headcanon tbh. Also I never said Cass can blitz Slade, so I dunno why you’re saying that as if it’s a point.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Slade was not referring to that exact scenario they were in lol, he was very clearly talking in general. Hell, he even referred to a previous fight, showing that he’s not just talking about that one moment.

Cass literally subverted him “toying with her” immediately after saying that and then dunked on him, sooooooo

That’s low-key just your headcanon tbh. Also I never said Cass can blitz Slade, so I dunno why you’re saying that as if it’s a point.

Yeah, he was talking in general. For the sole purpose of distracting Cass.
How did she subvert him toying with her? She started fighting differently, but that doesn't mean Slade no longer held back. And since Cass said he was faster than her right after the fight, he clearly didn't stop toying with her.
You wouldn't say "you're good lol" to someone who's clearly better than you.

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, he was talking in general. For the sole purpose of distracting Cass.

Literally doesn’t change my point, Slade thinks there’s only two ways to beat her, and he didn’t say outspeeding her was an option. Also Cass basically confirmed that he was in her head, and she was hindered and through that whole fight (Batgirl Vol. 2 #4 btw, if you want to see for yourself) and she could still tag Slade.

How did she subvert him toying with her? She started fighting differently, but that doesn't mean Slade no longer held back. And since Cass said he was faster than her right after the fight, he clearly didn't stop toying with her.

She literally said that she was bringing the fight to her own terms.

You wouldn't say "you're good lol" to someone who's clearly better than you.

Mm, why not? Also there’s still no reason for Slade to be toying with her here (especially since it’s never stated that he is and this is the first time they fought each other).

 

[LordTracer]

Their actual fights put Slade as comparable to Cass in speed at best, not superior.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Literally doesn’t change my point, Slade thinks there’s only two ways to beat her, and he didn’t say outspeeding her was an option. Also Cass basically confirmed that he was in her head, and she was hindered and through that whole fight (Batgirl Vol. 2 #4 btw, if you want to see for yourself) and she could still tag Slade.

She literally said that she was bringing the fight to her own terms.

Mm, why not? Also there’s still no reason for Slade to be toying with her here (especially since it’s never stated that he is and this is the first time they fought each other).

Nothing states Slade actually thinks that. The sole reason he said it is so that he can get a sucker punch in.
So she brought the fight "to her terms". I'm not entirely sure whether that means her using gadgets, acrobacy, or something else, but nothing implies Slade stopped holding back, with Cass herself saying that he was faster after she seemingly outmaneuvered him. Key word outmaneuvered. She did it through agility, not speed.
Slade could very well be testing her. His "you're good" statement clearly means he didn't take it seriously. No one, especially Deathstroke, would say that to someone who's beating him. And this fight went down very similarly to their second one, where Slade held back and was, in fact, faster.

 

[LordTracer]

Nothing states Slade actually thinks that. The sole reason he said it is so that he can get a sucker punch in.

Prove that was his reasoning and that he didn’t actually mean what he said.

So she brought the fight "to her terms". I'm not entirely sure whether that means her using gadgets, acrobacy, or something else, but nothing implies Slade stopped holding back, with Cass herself saying that he was faster after she seemingly outmaneuvered him. Key word outmaneuvered. She did it through agility, not speed.

Her agility would fall under combat speed, so… Also the definition of agility is “the power of moving quickly and easily; nimbleness” which would be speed. Also her statement of Slade being faster could mean movement speed and not combat speed so like-

Slade could very well be testing her. His "you're good" statement clearly means he didn't take it seriously. No one, especially Deathstroke, would say that to someone who's beating him. And this fight went down very similarly to their second one, where Slade held back and was, in fact, faster.

Prove he was testing her. No, him saying that Cass is good that does not mean he wasn’t taking it seriously, that is your headcanon. Literally nothing in this fight implies that Slade is testing her, not taking the fight seriously, holding back or whatever headcanon you want to come up with.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Prove that was his reasoning and that he didn’t actually mean what he said.

Her agility would fall under combat speed, so… Also the definition of agility is “the power of moving quickly and easily; nimbleness” which would be speed. Also her statement of Slade being faster could mean movement speed and not combat speed so like-

Prove he was testing her. No, him saying that Cass is good that does not mean he wasn’t taking it seriously, that is your headcanon. Literally nothing in this fight implies that Slade is testing her, not taking the fight seriously, holding back or whatever headcanon you want to come up with.

I don't need to prove anything. He clearly just said it to distract her, praising Cass wasn't his intent.
Agility as in your acrobacy, which Cass has used to avoid Slade here.
It's not headcannon, "Hmph, you're good" just isn't the type of thing you'd say to a person who clearly outpaces you

 

[LordTracer]

I don't need to prove anything. He clearly just said it to distract her, praising Cass wasn't his intent.

Yes, actually, you do need to prove that Slade doesn’t actually mean what he’s saying.

Agility as in your acrobacy, which Cass has used to avoid Slade here.

Still qualifies as combat speed.

It's not headcannon, "Hmph, you're good" just isn't the type of thing you'd say to a person who clearly outpaces you

Says who? And even if that was the case, that doesn’t mean he’s toying with her, testing her, holding back or anything else you’ve come up with.