See, we told you we were working on it! (Naruto Revision Part 1: Scaling)

[MinatoSparkle]

[insert current stuff here], possibly far higher (Is frequently given praise after his death, but lacks concrete feats)

"As far as dead shinobis goes, then yes, he’s the strongest."

Oh, also, just came up with the best argument. Minato can keep up with and damage Kaguya, gg.

 

[LordTracer]

Oh, also, just came up with the best argument. Minato can keep up with and damage Kaguya, gg.

I beat Minato and Kaguya with Haku in Storm 4, so Haku strongest shinobi

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I beat Minato and Kaguya with Haku in Storm 4, so Haku strongest shinobi

Well he IS light speed after all, hehe.

But also, do you have any counter to that direct statement?

 

[LordTracer]

Well, Kishimoto did immediately after say Hiruzen was up there with him, despite the actual manga putting Hiruzen beneath Minato.

Also do you happen to know when that statement was made

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Well, Kishimoto did immediately after say Hiruzen was up there with him, despite the actual manga putting Hiruzen beneath Minato.

Also do you happen to know when that statement was made

Simple explanation. It's referring to Prime Hiruzen.

Right after Itachi died, which was after Jiraiya died, putting Minato above SM Jiraiya.

 

[LordTracer]

Simple explanation. It's referring to Prime Hiruzen.

Why would it be referring to Prime Hiruzen though? We can’t assume it’s Hiruzen in his prime (especially since we literally never see that in the manga) unless there’s something implying that it’s him in his prime.

Can you provide the link to the statement, please

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Why would it be referring to Prime Hiruzen though? We can’t assume it’s Hiruzen in his prime (especially since we literally never see that in the manga) unless there’s something implying that it’s him in his prime.

Can you provide the link to the statement, please

Because we know Itachi>>Orochimaru~Old Hiruzen, and Itachi was dead. Plus, all of the lore in P1 of Hiruzen being the strongest is referring to him in his prime so it only makes sense.

Masashi Kishimoto Interview (About Minato) – March 2008

NARUTO 458 │ BLEACH 368 │ ONE PIECE 552 This is a late post from March 2008 Shonen JumpSJ = Shonen JumpMK = Masashi KishimotoSJ: There’s many rumours regarding Madara being the absolute final…

mblintheu.wordpress.com

 

[LordTracer]

Because we know Itachi>>Orochimaru~Old Hiruzen, and Itachi was dead. Plus, all of the lore in P1 of Hiruzen being the strongest is referring to him in his prime so it only makes sense.

Mmm, when Itachi died, he wasn’t stronger than Oro or Hiruzen, so… not really helping your argument. Neither does Part I’s lore, cause if you want to take it as Prime Hiruzen and use him being stated to be the strongest, that contradicts Kishimoto’s claim of him sharing the #1 spot with Minato, because then Hiruzen > Minato.

And if you consider it to be Old Hiruzen (y’know, the one we actually got to see), it’s still a contradiction because we know from Part I and Hiruzen’s own statements that Minato was stronger than him.

So either way, there’s a contradiction here.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Mmm, when Itachi died, he wasn’t stronger than Oro or Hiruzen, so… not really helping your argument. Neither does Part I’s lore, cause if you want to take it as Prime Hiruzen and use him being stated to be the strongest, that contradicts Kishimoto’s claim of him sharing the #1 spot with Minato, because then Hiruzen > Minato.

And if you consider it to be Old Hiruzen (y’know, the one we actually got to see), it’s still a contradiction because we know from Part I and Hiruzen’s own statements that Minato was stronger than him.

So either way, there’s a contradiction here.

Ahem

I beg your pardon?

Yeah, that part could've been retconned, but Hashirama and Tobirama weren't planned to be as strong as they were yet, so all that means is that Kishimoto decided to place greater weight on Minato's strength while also sticking with Hiruzen being stronger than the previous Hokage (although he's still stronger than Tobirama even in the WA). Or there's also the possibility that he intended for both of them to be the strongest. If you're tied with someone for first place, you're still technically the strongest. You both are.

So, no, not necessarily a contradiction.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

I beg your pardon?

You do realize that he meant Itachi and Orochimaru themselves physically and not with a Transformation (Snake God) or Chakra Avatar (Susanoo)

 

[LordTracer]

Or there's also the possibility that he intended for both of them to be the strongest. If you're tied with someone for first place, you're still technically the strongest. You both are.

That doesn’t change anything I said. If Kishimoto is saying they’re both tied, that contradicts both interpretations of Minato v. Hiruzen.

If you take Prime Hiruzen and say he’s the strongest Hokage, he’s above Minato. If you take Old Hiruzen, he’s beneath Minato. There is no way for them to be equal, therefore, it is a contradiction.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You do realize that he meant Itachi and Orochimaru themselves physically and not with a Transformation (Snake God) or Chakra Avatar (Susanoo)

Why wouldn't all powers be taken into account in Kishimoto's statement? Is there any reason for him to be referring to pure physicals?

That doesn’t change anything I said. If Kishimoto is saying they’re both tied, that contradicts both interpretations of Minato v. Hiruzen.

If you take Prime Hiruzen and say he’s the strongest Hokage, he’s above Minato. If you take Old Hiruzen, he’s beneath Minato. There is no way for them to be equal, therefore, it is a contradiction.

I literally explained it. Strongest means to be number one. If you're tied with someone, you're still the strongest.

1. Minato/Prime Hiruzen
2. Hashirama/Tobirama
3. Tsunade

Look at this list. You see Hiruzen is the STRONGEST Hokage still. He just shares the title with someone else. Both Hiruzen and Minato are the strongest Hokages. That doesn't contradict the P1 statements. And again, retcons exist, very plentifully in Naruto. Considering this statement was made after the P1 statements, it takes priority.

 

[LordTracer]

I literally explained it. Strongest means to be number one. If you're tied with someone, you're still the strongest.

1. Minato/Prime Hiruzen
2. Hashirama/Tobirama
3. Tsunade

Look at this list. You see Hiruzen is the STRONGEST Hokage still. He just shares the title with someone else. Both Hiruzen and Minato are the strongest Hokages. That doesn't contradict the P1 statements. And again, retcons exist, very plentifully in Naruto. Considering this statement was made after the P1 statements, it takes priority.

You’re not listening to what I’m saying, like, at all. Also the question was if Minato was the strongest shinobi who ever lived. That’s not a title you can share with another. And two people sharing the title of strongest person (singular) is contradictory in and of itself.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You’re not listening to what I’m saying, like, at all. Also the question was if Minato was the strongest shinobi who ever lived. That’s not a title you can share with another. And two people sharing the title of strongest person (singular) is contradictory in and of itself.

So Kishimoto worded it weirdly. How does that change the fact that he claimed Minato and Hiruzen were stronger than any other dead shinobi? Like, at all?

 

[LordTracer]

So Kishimoto worded it weirdly. How does that change the fact that he claimed Minato and Hiruzen were stronger than any other dead shinobi? Like, at all?

The statement contradicts itself. They can’t both be the strongest dead shinobi, so there’s clearly an issue here.

 

[KingTempest]

[insert current stuff here], possibly far higher (Is frequently given praise after his death, but lacks concrete feats)

Justification could use work, but that’s more or less what I think it should look like. Also the stuff about him being stronger than a younger Hiruzen could go in the “possibly far higher.”

I guess this could work, but shouldn't we put him as possibly High 7-A for scaling to Ay?

I’m pretty sure Slayer already explained the Pain statement earlier in the thread

Kakashi’s statement directly states that his combat power had increased from when he fought Obito and Madara. I’m not seeing any extra context?

The Edo Jinchūriki thing was also explained earlier in the thread

I don’t agree with using that B statement for AP, I would be in favor of removing that.

I countered that one with my huge spoilered which no one answered yet

Kakashi then goes on to talk about how he learned more jutsu and he can preserve more chakra to make up for his eye.

That ignored the statement to the left of it which says that they can time their attacks and used it as AP

And alright

It’s literally the only thing Naruto knows about that fight. It’s not really the same as the other statements when it’s the only thing Minato told Naruto.

I feel like if Naruto has seen him before already

The anti-feat was done against a vastly stronger version of Minato than the one in the two “feats,” and one of the feats was Minato getting hit by a vastly stronger character, so you can’t even say it’s consistent.

We can't compare their modes. Nothing compares the transformations.

And what makes KCM2 Minato > Sage Mode Minato?
If you're referring to the "I'm stronger than when I fought Pain" that isn't comparing modes, it's comparing versions of characters.

It’s more like Juubidara level Sage Minato v. Juubito level KCM2 Minato v. not scaling the non-Six Paths character to Six Paths stuff

I can concede cause it'll bring issues, but they are valid feats fyi

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Question, how strong do we have Jonin Ay?

 

[Urshani]

So Kishimoto worded it weirdly. How does that change the fact that he claimed Minato and Hiruzen were stronger than any other dead shinobi? Like, at all?

that obviously got retconned

 

[LordTracer]

I guess this could work, but shouldn't we put him as possibly High 7-A for scaling to Ay?

Bruh I literally said I was fine with giving him “possibly far higher,” not anything solid-

I countered that one with my huge spoilered which no one answered yet

Kakashi then goes on to talk about how he learned more jutsu and he can preserve more chakra to make up for his eye.

That ignored the statement to the left of it which says that they can time their attacks and used it as AP

And alright

Meh, if you want to remove the Kakashi statement, I don’t really have an issue with that.

Tempest, no, that’s not what happened. Having the Sharingan and Rinnegan, as well as Obito’s chakra would enhance their AP.

We can't compare their modes. Nothing compares the transformations.

Mmm, no, we can definitely say for a fact that Minato’s whole Kurama Avatar is stronger his Sage Mode.

I can concede cause it'll bring issues

K

Question, how strong do we have Jonin Ay?

N/A, we don’t have a key or stats for him.

 

[KingTempest]

that obviously got retconned

It just means that at that moment in time, they were the strongest, so any shinobi we knew the power of prior to that statement, they scale above that

 

[Urshani]

It just means that at that moment in time, they were the strongest, so any shinobi we knew the power of prior to that statement, they scale above that

understandable

 

[KingTempest]

Bruh I literally said I was fine with giving him “possibly far higher,” not anything solid-

Mannn

Meh, if you want to remove the Kakashi statement, I don’t really have an issue with that.

Aight

Tempest, no, that’s not what happened. Having the Sharingan and Rinnegan, as well as Obito’s chakra would enhance their AP.

Sharingan and Rinnegan amp their AP via that other thread and Obito's chakra enhances them yes.
But that statement isn't good reasoning for it. That scan talks about linked eyesight.
You could either leave it blank with an unknown or just say "Sharingan and Rinnegan enhance their abilities" without quoting that statement.
It's pretty useless, considering the fact that she's unknown in her base while alive

Mmm, no, we can definitely say for a fact that Minato’s whole Kurama Avatar is stronger his Sage Mode.

Prove it I'm referring to KCM, not Bijuu Mode

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The statement contradicts itself. They can’t both be the strongest dead shinobi, so there’s clearly an issue here.

This is a way bigger example of arguing semantics than my display of power argument. Like come on, Kishimoto was just adding on to the statement of Minato is the strongest. What do you expect him to say? "As far as dead shinobis goes, then yes, he's the strongest. I'd say that Sandaime has the same level of strength, so forget what I said about Minato being the strongest, they are just both stronger than every other dead shinobi. Got that, people who have Tracer in your name? No contradictions here." Anyways, they obviously can both be the strongest, as he stated. "I’d say that Sandaime shares the number one spot with him." And once again, this doesn't address the fact that Kishimoto literally, without any ambiguity, confirms that Minato and Hiruzen are stronger than SM Jiraiya.

 

[LordTracer]

Sharingan and Rinnegan amp their AP via that other thread and Obito's chakra enhances them yes.
But that statement isn't good reasoning for it. That scan talks about linked eyesight.
You could either leave it blank with an unknown or just say "Sharingan and Rinnegan enhance their abilities" without quoting that statement.
It's pretty useless, considering the fact that she's unknown in her base while alive

It’s to show that they’re stronger, therefore preventing people from trying to scale their alive selves to their Six Paths of Obito selves. Funnily enough, I told Damage the same thing when Slayer and I were checking in with him before we made the thread.

Prove it I'm referring to KCM, not Bijuu Mode

Okay? I wasn’t comparing KCM to his Sage Mode in that post so ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[LordTracer]

This is a way bigger example of arguing semantics than my display of power argument. Like come on, Kishimoto was just adding on to the statement of Minato is the strongest. What do you expect him to say? "As far as dead shinobis goes, then yes, he's the strongest. I'd say that Sandaime has the same level of strength, so forget what I said about Minato being the strongest, they are just both stronger than every other dead shinobi. Got that, people who have Tracer in your name? No contradictions here." Anyways, they obviously can both be the strongest, as he stated. "I’d say that Sandaime shares the number one spot with him." And once again, this doesn't address the fact that Kishimoto literally, without any ambiguity, confirms that Minato and Hiruzen are stronger than SM Jiraiya.

Yes, the sarcasm is very cute, still does not change my point.

Kishimoto was asked if, and I quote; “Minato was the strongest shinobi that ever lived?” The strongest shinobi. Singular. He then says that Hiruzen somehow shares that spot with Minato. Two people cannot share the singular title of “strongest shinobi that ever lived.” Kishimoto’s own words in this interview are contradictory. They cannot both be the strongest person at the same time.

And that’s aside from the fact that I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt on it being Prime Hiruzen as opposed to Old Hiruzen, the one we actually saw, y’know, existing in the manga.

Anyways, I’m going to bed. I’m gonna be pretty busy for most of tomorrow, so try not to add four more pages to the thread while I’m gone, K?

 

[Urshani]

it seems to me that hiruzen = minato > everyone else around the time the statement was said

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Yes, the sarcasm is very cute, still does not change my point.

Kishimoto was asked if, and I quote; “Minato was the strongest shinobi that ever lived?” The strongest shinobi. Singular. He then says that Hiruzen somehow shares that spot with Minato. Two people cannot share the singular title of “strongest shinobi that ever lived.” Kishimoto’s own words in this interview are contradictory. They cannot both be the strongest person at the same time.

And that’s aside from the fact that I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt on it being Prime Hiruzen as opposed to Old Hiruzen, the one we actually saw, y’know, existing in the manga.

Anyways, I’m going to bed. I’m gonna be pretty busy for most of tomorrow, so try not to add four more pages to the thread while I’m gone, K?

Yes, and then after saying Minato was, he ADDED onto it. I don't see what's so hard to accept about that. And again, they can both be the strongest shinobis that ever lived.

Considering there are many characters that scale to or above Old Hiruzen, while there aren't such antifeats or statements for Prime Hiruzen, the most logical assumption is that it's referring to Prime Hiruzen.

Also, there's the fact that he said there are "a couple of shinobis whose stronger than him." And there are 9-10 High 7-A/High 7-A+s alive at this point I believe. Pain, The Five Kage, V2 Killer Bee, Danzo, 7th Gate Guy, and Fused Kisame, if you count him. So unless a couple means 10 or more (which it doesn't. I actually searched it up and a couple means 2 or around 2. Personally speaking, I believe Kishimoto meant Pain and Obito), this is more proof that Minato's somewhere in High 7-A.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Spoiler: Reply to Tempest's Jiraiya issue

Oh boy.

Ok so this is why the Sannin are fodder I'm assuming.

I've read these fights several times so here goes.

Man, could you just cut the "Sannin are fodder" crap out, please? Just because a character isn't scaling to the highest possible rating or their highest possible interpretations are taken into account, doesn't mean they're downplayed or "fodder". The Sannin are actually decently high on the scaling chain as is, but due our limited number of calcs, they scale where they do, and assuming the scaling remains the same, their ratings will likely drop even further. Now is this something I like/want/enjoy? **** no, but I can't exactly help the situation with the calcs.
And I thought you of all people would understand how annoying and uncalled for some of these accusations can be given how much you've dealt with the Katakuri and "Roger and WB are fodder" situations.

Jiraiya​

Jiraiya initially wasn't even trying to kill anybody. He went to go gather intel and he was talking to Konan. When he met Nagato again he tried to have conversation. Even when half dead he wanted to go confirm if the dudes he were fighting were the real ones. WHILE HE'S DYING he's thinking about getting info out.

Yes, Jiraiya wanted to gather information, that was his main goal. I never claimed that wasn't the case, but you're painting it as if he somehow held back. He didn't, not against Pain anyway. The fact that he was gathering information while fighting for his life is a testament to his character, mental fortitude, and intelligence; however, it is no indication or proof that he was holding back in any way against Pain. He was clearly struggling against him, and it wouldn't make sense for him to hold back and let himself potentially get killed if he can avoid that outcome.
And for the record, at the very end he could've potentially escaped with his life, but he chose to confront Pain and die in order to confirm his suspicions and relay the information to Konoha. He basically conceded his life at the very end, it's not like that was his mentality the whole time.

Whole time, they wanted to kill Jiraiya.

• Pain orders Konan to kill Jiraiya.
• Pain tells her to eliminate him.
• Konan says she will kill Jiraiya.
• Nagato says that Jiraiya is about to die.
• They kill Jiraiya.

Yeah, they definitely wanted to kill him, and kill him they did. Doesn't mean that Jiraiya was somehow holding back though.

Against Jiraiya they completely countered him. He states that they know his weaknesses.

• They could wash away his toad oil.
• They could absorb his jutsu. Again.
• The Path that he incapacitated prior can block his Taijutsu while off guard.
• He states that his ninjutsu being nullified will lead to him being killed.
• He says Taijutsu doesn't work and that his ninjutsu will be absorbed.
• Then when he's perfectly fine, they attack him off guard and rips his arm off.

Yeah, Pain is a tricky dude with versatile abilities. There is not a single character in this verse that would be put in Jiraiya's exact situation and not struggle, unless they can just outright stat or hax stomp Pain.
That being said, I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to prove here. Pain scales to Jiraiya, that is a fact. If you're insinuating that they don't, that is straight up wrong. You even linked examples of them contending with, or harming him, physically. Yeah, they countered him, but that changes nothing as far as scaling is concerned. Being "countered" doesn't nerf you physically or something, it just means you're screwed because all of your abilities and strategies won't work.

The one minute they confirm that they don't know something about Jiraiya, the Jutsu kills three of them.
While he's injured, he kills one of them.

Yeah, with hax..........three were killed via a Genjutsu, and one was killed via being BFR'd into a toad's acidic stomach.
Again, I feel like you're stating the obvious here. This is exactly what I said in my initial reply to you. Jiraiya had the possibility to beat Pain due to his abilities. If he'd been armed with prior knowledge, he could've formulated a strategy to beat Pain with a combination of these two abilities you just linked, specifically the genjutsu.
Like, if Jiraiya KNEW that there were six bodies, he wouldn't have fired off the genjutsu when only 3 were active. He would've waited until all 6 were around, or any other combination of abilities that I don't have the time or willpower to mention right now. Jiraiya would've fought differently with prior knowledge, of that there is no doubt, but he wasn't going to magically grow stronger and somehow stomp Pain with his raw strength.

And his props?

• Obito says that Jiraiya must have lived up to his reputation and implied that Pain was wounded via the "you seem to be struggling" comment.
• Then his famous "he probably would've won if he had prior knowledge" statement.
• Black Zetsu justifies it by saying that it was Jiraiya that they fought.

Again, none of these are AP related statements. What reputation did he live up to? Did that reputation entail being physically superior to SM Naruto? Cause that's not what I'm getting from this statement tbh.
I've already addressed Pain's statement twice now, so I don't feel it necessary to go too in-depth for a third time. Jiraiya "probably" could've won had he known the Rinnegan's secrets. This is not an indication that he would've somehow gained some magical "prior knowledge" physical amp lol. It only means he would've been able to use said knowledge in combination with his intelligence and abilities in order to better counter their abilities, and that's it.
The only thing you can glean from this statement is that Jiraiya is smarter and more experienced than Naruto, which I don't think anyone really disputed anyway.

And can we remember that Jiraiya went in there alone? Summoned 3 people and that's it?

How that would physically nerf him, I do not know. Again, he may not have fought optimally, but that has no bearing on AP.

Naruto​

Pain was far away from the source body and he used a life axing jutsu in the beginning of the fight. Konan states that the other paths recover slower after Nagato focused all their chakra on Tendo.

All of this was already taken into account if you'd read the profile carefully.

Also, I see this "life axing" argument brought up often by you. It means nothing beyond the fact that it shortens Nagato's lifespan. The actual immediate consequences of using it are the fact that Tendo's power and ability and that the other Paths takes MUCH longer to recuperate. There's no underlying nerf beyond that.
We already took into account that Pain was initially weakened against Naruto.

Pain was not trying to kill Naruto.

• We see on several occasions that Akatsuki fight Jinchuriki and don't intend to kill them.
  • Gaara was forced to be kept alive.
  • Roshi was stated to have been dying, implying that he was fought with the intent to be kept alive.
  • Kisame confirms that they need to keep the Jinchuriki alive.
  • Madara issues the operation a capture mission. Again.
  • Sasuke says he's here to capture Bee, not kill him.
  • Akatsuki said not to wipe out the Jinchuriki.
  • Suigetsu says that initially they were fighting to capture, not to kill, and that they should fight with the intent to kill in order to capture him.
  • They emphasize that their goal was not to kill him.
  • Naruto after the fight with Pain says that the Akatsuki always try to take the Jinchuriki alive.
  • Obito, even during the war, tried to capture Naruto instead of killing.
  • After Naruto smacks around the Bijuu, Obito says he needs to fight him with the intent to kill.

Uhuh, thanks for once again stating the obvious in the most unnecessarily long winded fashion possible.

• We see this in the fight as well.
  • They just wanted to incapacitate and capture Naruto, which they did with relative ease.

Thanks to the Deva Path's Bansho Tenin, yes. An ability Jiraiya never had to contend with. And let's not pretend that Naruto didn't counter this, like, immediately afterwards lol.
Also this was a MUCH stronger Pain because:
A) Tendo's power and ability had finally recovered.
B) Only two Paths were left.
Context is a beautiful thing, isn't it? This has absolutely no bearing on AP.

• When Pain got Naruto on the ground, he avoided all his vitals because he wanted to capture him.
• He trapped him in a mini planet and said "Operation capture Kyuubi complete".
• Pain was trying to see how strong the 9 tails was.

He wasn't trying to kill him, but that's not the same as massively holding back, or even being adverse to harming him severely, as your examples have conveniently shown.

• The pains didn't try any lethal techniques.
  • Didn't even try to soul rip him.

This is a technique that relies on the Human Path establishing physical contact with their target; something he couldn't have done given that he was obliterated at long range with a FRS earlier in the fight.
Also, like, we don't really know if he wouldn't have tried this given the chance. If a complete novice to the Rinnegan like Kabuto could formulate a valid strategy around it, then I think it's safe to say that Nagato could've as well.

• • Didn't try the Deva x Asura combo.

Bro, is this for real? You're forgetting that the Asura Path was long gone by the time the Deva Path's abilities returned.
Like, c'mon now..........

• • Didn't try to snipe him.

Like this would've worked against Sage Naruto anyway. Not to mention there were no nails lying around. Pain made sure of that when he blew literally everything in the village away lol.

• • Didn't try to feed him to the king of hell.

Uhuh, another ability that requires physical contact, which he could not properly establish until the Preta x Deva combo.

• So Pain wasn't trying to kill him.

Thanks, Captain Obvious.

There's no indication that he was holding back, though. Non-lethal force =/= nerfing yourself to the point where Naruto walks through you until the Deva Path's abilities return.

And for every Naruto thread I've witnessed, not trying to kill = holding back pretty much. So Pain was holding back on Naruto.

Uh, I don't know about that. It's not some rule that I'm aware of. It's a very context dependent thing, and I don't believe the context here supports it.
Hell, it could be argued that Itachi was holding back against Sasuke in their fight, and he has actual reasons to, and I didn't even use that.
Stop generalizing all Naruto fans, will ya? We don't share some hive mind, like you seem to think.

Naruto came in the fight with help. He had Fukasaku, Shima, Gamabunta, Gamaken, and Gamahiro come help him. Unlike Jiraiya who came alone.

Need I remind you that Jiraiya could've summoned all of these if he really wanted to, but chose not to? In fact, he did summon three of them lol. The terrain just wasn't well suited to giant Kaiju toads. And again, this says nothing for AP, it's just different stategies.
It's not even as if Jiraiya did better than Naruto in the first place for any of this to really matter. As I see it, this is completely moot.

Naruto had a way to bypass all of Jiraiya's issues.

• Jiraiya's taijutsu couldn't work because the Pain would just dodge/block his attacks, and ninjutsu didn't work on him either because he would've absorbed it.
  • Naruto used an undodgeable taijutsu attack, which was noted by Pain to have been attempted to be avoided.
• Jiraiya struggled with overcoming the sight of the Paths.
  • Naruto destroyed one off guard when no one was focusing on him.
  • Sent one Pain inside a toad's mouth where no one could see them, then Naruto killed it.
  • Naruto used smoke bombs to surprise the Pains and attack one from above.
  • Manipulated a Pain who needed to stay still and haxed him to death.
• Jiraiya was on his own most of the time
  • Naruto had the Sages do Frog Song off rip.
  • The toads handled the summons. Here, here, here, here, here.
  • Shima made a smokescreen.
  • Fukusaku summoned his clone for him.
• Jiraiya needed prior knowledge to win.
  • Naruto had Katsuyu on his shoulder for the whole fight, verbatim stated to be there for intel.
  • She told Naruto about the absorber Pain's ability of absorbing ninjutsu, which Jiraiya needed to find out.
  • She told Naruto about the Deva Path and the time interval.
  • She told Naruto about the info that the Paths of Pain are puppets.

Thanks for the recap, I guess? Again, none of this contradicts the statements of Naruto being stronger.
Like, literally all you said is "Naruto who had prior knowledge and help did better against Pain than Jiraiya who didn't". Like, yeah, no shit.

In Conclusion​

Using these statements for strength when in a powerscaling perspective, Jiraiya is superior, is an issue.

No, Jiraiya is not superior in AP. He is superior in strategies, intelligence, and maybe hax.
The only way this would've been the case is if both Naruto and Jiraiya fought the exact same Pain, and Naruto was shown to be weaker, but that didn't happen at all.
Jiraiya fought a stronger Pain, struggled against him, and got killed. He has statements hyping his intelligence and abilities, and heavy implications that he could've won with prior knowledge, but nothing implies he has AP surpassing that of Naruto's.
Naruto fought a much weaker Pain (initially), but that's not an anti-feat because he completely ran through Pain without any trouble until the Deva's abilities (and presumably his power) returned. I'll reiterate what I said in my initial post: Naruto only lost due to the Deva's abilties, and only when 3 or less bodies were active.
This is something that Jiraiya never had to deal with, so drawing comparisons between Naruto and Jiraiya based on completely incompatible situations and circumstances just isn't fair.

It'd be unfair to take the other statements into strict evaluation but to allow this statement to be 100% for AP.

The most it'd be for is for the rasenshuriken

The fact of the matter is that these statements are completely uncontradicted.
Now look, in a hypothetical world where they didn't exist, would Jiraiya's feats put him ahead of Naruto? I don't like dealing in hypotheticals, but maybe he would've. He fought 3 Pains that were much closer to Nagato on relatively equal footing, but was still harmed by 6 active Pains. Naruto was overpowered when two bodies or less remained, but were farther away from Nagato.
With that said, I am not about to ignore multiple canon statements with no contradictions just because we don't like them. There's plenty of things I don't like in the series, but I don't go out of my way to fight them just because they're not to my liking.

Now Tempest, I'm not saying you will, I'm not saying you should, but IF you concede to this point, I implore you not to bring it up again later in this thread.
If you have valid concerns or issues, then by all means, bring them forth and let's discuss them. But it really feels like we're running in circles with this one because you have a personal gripe with it.

Now, as far as the Minato situation is concerned, I'd like us to try and move closer to a conclusion as well.
Tracer will be unavailable until tomorrow evening, so we can't properly conclude it until then, anyway. But I'd still like us to take stepts towards a conclusion in the meantime.
Here's my idea. It seems that in my absence, people have started to warm up towards the idea of a compromise for Minato. I'm not inherently against that idea, but I think it's best if we consult other staff first.
So I would like @GokuSparkle to compile all of his arguments for Minato in one CONCISE post for all staff and regular members who haven't been keeping up with the thread to get brought up to speed. Please refrain from using arguments you've already conceded on, or points that are opinion based, hypotheticals, etc. Just stick to your most solid points, please. We don't need to go back to square one.

Take your time with it, of course. I'll probably share my thoughts later tonight when I'm done with college stuff. It'll also be better because more people will be awake, and Tracer will likely be freed up by then.

As I see it, the options for Minato seem to be:
1) He remains as is, at 7-B
2) He gets an "At least 7-B, possibly far higher"
3) He gets an "At least 7-B, possibly High 7-A/High 7-A+"
4) He gets an outright High 7-A/High 7-A+

The staff I'll call (who will probably be Tempest, Damage, Javndo and Shadow, AKA the only ones who care about Nardo) will then decide based on the arguments presented which is the best option. I feel like this is the best way to move forward, because Sparkle and Tracer/Myself will probably keep debating this topic forever lol. I'm not saying this will be immediately resolved, but getting more opinions and inputs will likely help set us on the right track. If ya'll have any ideas, I'm willing to hear them as well of course.

With that being said, let's finally get this going!

 

[PrinceofPein]

Okay, seems okay like a fair compromise.(my man forgot he is now a staff also)
But if Anime was canon, there was a part minato almost killed Ay before bee intervened, that's something to look at.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

my man forgot he is now a staff also

That's gonna take a while to get used to lol

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Now, as far as the Minato situation is concerned, I'd like us to try and move closer to a conclusion as well.
Tracer will be unavailable until tomorrow evening, so we can't properly conclude it until then, anyway. But I'd still like us to take stepts towards a conclusion in the meantime.

Yes please

Here's my idea. It seems that in my absence, people have started to warm up towards the idea of a compromise for Minato. I'm not inherently against that idea, but I think it's best if we consult other staff first.

Ayyyy, we won another passive!

So I would like @GokuSparkle to compile all of his arguments for Minato in one CONCISE post for all staff and regular members who haven't been keeping up with the thread to get brought up to speed. Please refrain from using arguments you've already conceded on, or points that are opinion based, hypotheticals, etc. Just stick to your most solid points, please. We don't need to go back to square one.

GokuSparkle, president of the Minato fan club, active and ready for duty!

I don't recall what points I conceded on, but I'll try. As for opinion based, all of it is technically opinion based, so I'm not sure how closely I can follow your request. I mean I get what you mean, but the border between headcanon and making a reasonable interpretation is kinda blurry.

Btw do you want me to bring up my debunks to the current rating of Minato or just the evidence for a higher rating?

Take your time with it, of course. I'll probably share my thoughts later tonight when I'm done with college stuff. It'll also be better because more people will be awake, and Tracer will likely be freed up by then.

Oh I'm def not gonna be done tonight lol, but that's better than it being a bad post I sppose.

As I see it, the options for Minato seem to be:
1) He remains as is, at 7-B
2) He gets an "At least 7-B, possibly far higher"
3) He gets an "At least 7-B, possibly High 7-A/High 7-A+"
4) He gets an outright High 7-A/High 7-A+

I mean, technically Minato is At least 7-B rn, but ig basically the same thing lol

The staff I'll call (who will probably be Tempest, Damage, Javndo and Shadow, AKA the only ones who care about Nardo) will then decide based on the arguments presented which is the best option. I feel like this is the best way to move forward, because Sparkle and Tracer/Myself will probably keep debating this topic forever lol. I'm not saying this will be immediately resolved, but getting more opinions and inputs will likely help set us on the right track. If ya'll have any ideas, I'm willing to hear them as well of course.

With that being said, let's finally get this going!

Well that's cool, I know I already have one of those ppl on my side. So just need to convince one more for it to be at least a draw.

Also I'd like to propose the idea that regular member's inputs should be taken into consideration to some extent. They shouldn't be the be all end all, but if for example there were 2 staff members for each side, while 10 regular members agreed with High 7-A+ Minato and 1 disagreed, I think the Minato side should probably take it. As for 1v3, not sure if any number of normal members inputs can outweigh those 2 staff members, but maybe? Or if you give input and it's 2v3, then I'm thinking it should be.

And yeah, we'd probably debate forever tbh.

You do a good job as an announcer, I must say.

Okay, seems okay like a fair compromise.(my man forgot he is now a staff also)
But if Anime was canon, there was a part minato almost killed Ay before bee intervened, that's something to look at.

Uh, well it happened in the manga too.

In fact, this scene is one of my biggest arguments for Minato being High 7-A+, for for it having 3-4 pieces of evidence all in one panel (which I'll explain in my summary later)

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yes please

I strive to please.

Ayyyy, we won another passive!

GokuSparkle, president of the Minato WANKERS fan club, active and ready for duty!

Lmao, LESSSSGOOO

I don't recall what points I conceded on, but I'll try. As for opinion based, all of it is technically opinion based, so I'm not sure how closely I can follow your request. I mean I get what you mean, but the border between headcanon and making a reasonable interpretation is kinda blurry.

Ah, well, I suppose you could check the last two text walls or so. Whatever arguments that were present in your initial posts that are missing from the recent ones, I'd assume just weren't solid enough to make it.
Look, my point is just to choose the points you feel are most essential and have the strongest basis. Stuff like Kakashi mistaking Naruto for Minato is a prime example of what I wouldn't personally consider the most solid piece of evidence for instance.
Ultimately I'll leave it up to your judgment.

Btw do you want me to bring up my debunks to the current rating of Minato or just the evidence for a higher rating?

It's up to you, but I think you should probably go for both if you're still aiming for a full on High 7-A rating, and not a possibly (which I'm sure is the case).

Oh I'm def not gonna be done tonight lol, but that's better than it being a bad post I sppose.

Yes, I'd like you to take your time as well. There's no rush.

I mean, technically Minato is At least 7-B rn, but ig basically the same thing lol

Yeah, my bad lol.

Well that's cool, I know I already have one of those ppl on my side. So just need to convince one more for it to be at least a draw.

Yup.

Also I'd like to propose the idea that regular member's inputs should be taken into consideration to some extent. They shouldn't be the be all end all, but if for example there were 2 staff members for each side, while 10 regular members agreed with High 7-A+ Minato and 1 disagreed, I think the Minato side should probably take it. As for 1v3, not sure if any number of normal members inputs can outweigh those 2 staff members, but maybe? Or if you give input and it's 2v3, then I'm thinking it should be.

Obviously user input is welcome and will be taken into consideration. I'm not going to be one of those staff who ignore users completely (I was a regular fodder member yesterday after all lol).
But I think it's also fair to say that blind agreements/disagreements won't mean much. If a user, staff or otherwise, brings solid points and reasons for why they agree/disagree, then of course it won't be ignored. No chance in hell chief! Not under my watch!

And yeah, we'd probably debate forever tbh.

Yeah lol, that's kinda why I suggested this. I could see where it was going. AKA. Nowhere

You do a good job as an announcer, I must say.

Many thanks!

 

[Damage3245]

I'll wait to see the final arguments presented but so far I'm still leaning in favor of "At least 7-B" or "At least 7-B, likely higher" for Minato.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Why are we taking Kishi's statement with so much gravitas when it was either retconned or Kishi is being purposefully Coy considering if he did reveal the actual scaling he would be spoiling half the show (because we are meant to believe TOBI is MADARA at that point) and base Minato is absolutely not as strong as Indra,Asura,Hashirama and EMS Madara, the latter who in a weakened form clowned on the person who is meant to be Minato's rival.

BUT BUT SAGE MODE MINATO PUNCHING BAG FEAT WHO SURVIVED JUUBI MADARA

Even if we assume this was a legit feat for Minato then it would put into question if Kishi's statement is even referring to base Minato as oppose to his entire powerset which includes half of the nine tails which Kishi would know about ahead of time.

It's so bizarre that people will scrutinize every statement regarding base naruto's strength but not do so for Minato, the fact that Minato's only on-screen feat is hurting a character who himself scales off of Minato's hype and statements is telling.

If anyone really wants to upgrade Minato then you're going to have to do it via Ay not through really vague statements like this.

I don't have an issue with saying Possibly higher or High 7-A because of the Implications of AY.

̶w̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶a̶l̶w̶a̶y̶s̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶M̶i̶n̶a̶t̶o̶ ̶U̶n̶k̶n̶o̶w̶n̶

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yes, I also agree that the Ay implications are by far the most solid avenues for Minato to scale higher, but like I said, let's wait and see the final arguments before passing final judgment.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I'll wait to see the final arguments presented but so far I'm still leaning in favor of "At least 7-B" or "At least 7-B, likely higher" for Minato.

Why are we taking Kishi's statement with so much gravitas when it was either retconned or Kishi is being purposefully Coy considering if he did reveal the actual scaling he would be spoiling half the show (because we are meant to believe TOBI is MADARA at that point) and base Minato is absolutely not as strong as Indra,Asura,Hashirama and EMS Madara, the latter who in a weakened form clowned on the person who is meant to be Minato's rival.

Uh...I'm not trying to scale Minato to Tier 5 or 6 lol (at least not yet ). The only point I made was that we saw Jiraiya die prior to this statement and we knew Jiraiya's full powerset at that time, meaning it's 100% guaranteed that Kishimoto had SM Jiraiya (who's High 7-A) in mind when he made that statement.

Uh...no to Ay being relative to Minato, that was def retconned later in the WA as more Minato metas were shown,. Minato would beat The Five Kage together. But that's not really important rn.

BUT BUT SAGE MODE MINATO PUNCHING BAG FEAT WHO SURVIVED JUUBI MADARA

Even if we assume this was a legit feat for Minato then it would put into question if Kishi's statement is even referring to base Minato as oppose to his entire powerset which includes half of the nine tails which Kishi would know about ahead of time.

Again, not what I'm talking about, that was Tempest's point.

It's so bizarre that people will scrutinize every statement regarding base naruto's strength but not do so for Minato, the fact that Minato's only on-screen feat is hurting a character who himself scales off of Minato's hype and statements is telling.

If anyone really wants to upgrade Minato then you're going to have to do it via Ay not through really vague statements like this.

Well Ay is one of the main points in my argument, but having other arguments really solidify it and come together to form a whole that's almost impossible to deny. I'm almost sure Minato's gonna get at bare minimum "At least 7-B, possibly far higher" when all is said and done.

I don't have an issue with saying Possibly higher or High 7-A because of the Implications of AY.

ite

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

also before I go I want to nip this in the bud, the whole "Minato said you needed Kurama to defeat the masked man, thing" isn't a supporting feat for Minato or even Obito, Minato at that point believes that Obito is Madara Uchiha who has so much hype and history behind his name that off course Minato would think this.

now I gotta go will only be able to partake in the thread much later today.

 

[BlackeJan]

To save the embarassment, might as well delete Minato's base key and keep him as KCM Minato.

You’re a ******* genius Damage

 

[Metalija]

As far as Minato is concerned are we forgeting that Minato actually saw Narutos fight with Pain but still considered a 14 year old Obito to be stronger than Pain and that Naruto would need KCM in order to fight Obito? That 14 year old Obito got oneshot by Minatos rasengan. Also Minato was about to stab a fourth Raikage with a kunai but Bee interfered. So yeah, Minato should be High 7-A.

 

[Damage3245]

Minato being about to stab Ay is the reason why I'm considering him to be possibly higher.

But Minato is just going by the legend of Madara: not just Obito's strength.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Obito's strength

The funny thing is that Obito literally showed zero strength or AP feats throughout that entire flashback lol.