Dante vs Hoopa

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Does his time stop work on characters with infinite speed? (Sorry if this a stupid question, since speed is equalized regardless).

Outside vs yes, here Sadly nah.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Either way the fact it's being even questioned what Hoopa starts with and how is hax works on top off his W over Kratos being called into question just proves how shaky the assumptions are, we need to be transparent about Hoopa's whole schick before deciding how a battle would go.

Ok after rewatching the movie the evil Hoopa actually did summon the creation trio first in one of the fights, but it constantly summons random legendaries throughout the rest of the movie and the good Hoopa (the Hoopa used here) didn’t even attempt to summon them. So whether him summoning the creation trio first that time was a coincidence or not, and whether that would apply to good Hoopa is up to debate. Considering how every other legendary he summons is consistently random, in many other scenes he didn’t open with them, and how that’s not even the Hoopa we are using, I would say him opening with the trio isn’t likely.

Apparently they were some external influences within the movie that explains some of the inconsistencies via the novelization of it (likely Llama shenanigans). Tho @Executor_N0 knows more about it than I do.

 

[Keeweed]

I’ll need to find that novelization then. If I can, the movie conveniently has a free review with all the fight scenes in it.

Though there is one thing I somewhat want to add to my previous comment. The evil Hoopa actually summoned smoke before he summoned the trio (to try and choke out the good Hoopa and his summons). And before summoning he shot a laser beam and threw one pokemon through a portal. So even using the scene where he summoned the creation trio that still wasn’t his opening move. I just wanted to make that somewhat clear so even with the most gun happy assumption the creation trio won’t immediately come out and wreck.

 

[Sevil Natas]

so i guess dante wins this then

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'm pretty sure Hoopa resists its own Mind hax because of it being related to Psychic Type, so its relation with Dark Type should make it able to resist it. Fear hax shouldn't work tbh, as emphatic hax is treated as a part of the mind/soul in Pokémon verse, which is elementally resisted from Dark type.

On top of this, Hoopa can resist its own mind hax / corruption.

When Hoopas sealed powers in the Prison Bottle tried possesisng confined Hoopa, Hoopa was able to resist it (with some minor help from Barza and Mary’s Arceus powers) enough that Hoopas powers split off and became Shadow Hoopa.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wait hold on why is everyone arguing for mind manipulation and creation trio summoning. Hoopa doesn’t open with either of those. He opens with mind manipulation only with his summons (so they actually follow him and don’t immediately attack him) and he definitely didn’t open with the creation trio he summons random legendaries.

Because Hoopa did not have mastery over its powers when doing this. Hoopa isn’t like this anymore after the movie.

 

[Keeweed]

Why would that mean he would open with creation trio. He can now chose who to summon, but he’s fighting a random guy that purposely makes himself seem less intimidating. There is zero reason for Hoopa to open with literal god, especially when yeeting a portal would work against a large chunk of opponents. Or open with literally any other legendary if the portal doesn’t work. The evil Hoopa didn’t even really open with the creation trio and when he summoned them it is very arguably a coincidence that he summoned them so early.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Because true Hoopas character is completely unknown? We never get a real look at how a fully United Hoopa operates, the depictions of Hoopa are when it’s under very specific conditions that aren’t universal.

Shadow Hoopa is explicitly an angry bloodlusted version of Hoopa that’s angered for its powers being sealed away in the Prison Bottle and has no control over its powers.

While good Hoopa is strictly Hoopa Confined without its Unbound powers (since Ghris sealed them in the Prison Bottle) and has pre-established limits on its power.

The only part of Clash of Ages where we see an actual True Hoopa is when Hoopa and it’s corrupted Unbound powers have acceptance of each other (when Ash was possessed by the bottle) and reunite. But by point, it didn’t need to do much of anything besides helping people escape the Space-Time distortion, so there’s no real look on how Hoopa normally operates.

 

[Regice]

Hoopa can just teleport him away and summon his legendary pokemon army right?

 

[Keeweed]

If that’s the case then we either A) make Hoopa completely unusable in versus threads because we have zero clue what he’ll actually do, or B) go the nameless rpg character route and assume his move set is entirely random.

 

[Regice]

If that’s the case then we either A) make Hoopa completely unusable in versus threads because we have zero clue what he’ll actually do, or B) go the nameless rpg character route and assume his move set is entirely random.

I'll go with B because that is more fun

 

[Keeweed]

Hoopa can just teleport him away and summon his legendary pokemon army right?

Dante has precog so he can dodge the portals. When it comes to the legendaries anything that isn’t the creation trio gets wrecked trying to fight Dante due to concept manipulation (and many other things).

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No, we don’t make characters unusable just because they don’t have a set character on how they fight.

If there’s no pre-established mindset, anything goes. We do this for characters that don’t have a character all the time here.

 

[Keeweed]

I'll go with B because that is more fun

I would go with B because that’s what we do for every other character without know tactics.

 

[Regice]

Dante has precog so he can dodge the portals. When it comes to the legendaries anything that isn’t the creation trio gets wrecked trying to fight Dante due to concept manipulation (and many other things).

Well he summoned dialga and palkia who have infinite speed

 

[Keeweed]

No, we don’t make characters unusable just because they don’t have a set character on how they fight.

If there’s no pre-established mindset, anything goes. We do this for characters that don’t have a character all the time here.

I mean we usually do ‘anything goes’ but I wasn’t sure if that only applies to game characters or not.

If it applies to Hoopa here then saying he opens with the creation trio would be completely false and it’s very likely Dante defeats him then. As he just needs to fight random legendaries (many of which are 5-B to 6-B) or dodge portals.

 

[Keeweed]

Well he summoned dialga and palkia who have infinite speed

He did, but nothing about Hoopa says he’ll open with that. So he has a 1/30 or so chance of doing so versus Dante doing anything after closing the distance (There’s no way Hoopa is wining a sword fight with Dante with his skill disadvantage).

 

[Everything12]

Hoopa generally summons multiple Legends at once.

 

[Regice]

He did, but nothing about Hoopa says he’ll open with that. So he has a 1/30 or so chance of doing so versus Dante doing anything after closing the distance (There’s no way Hoopa is wining a sword fight with Dante with his skill disadvantage).

I'm saying that he can teleport Dante away to summon his legendary army since he can summon dialga and palkia who have infinite speed

 

[Keeweed]

Yes, but Dante stomps a large majority of them. Many are 5-B or lower and the high 3-A opens generally don’t have a ton going for them. Dante’s soul, fear, and conceptual hax would easily beat out a very large majority of them. So Hoopa opening with anything but the creation trio or a really specific legendary isn’t going to do much of anything.

 

[Keeweed]

I'm saying that he can teleport Dante away to summon his legendary army since he can summon dialga and palkia who have infinite speed

Him teleporting Dante away requires him to get him into a portal. Due to his precognition Dante would dodge that (Also I think Dante has teleportation in this key)

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I'm saying that he can teleport Dante away to summon his legendary army since he can summon dialga and palkia who have infinite speed

But wouldn't summons be speed equalised too??
Aren't they??
insert Anakin Padme meme

 

[Regice]

Yes, but Dante stomps a large majority of them. Many are 5-B or lower and the high 3-A opens generally don’t have a ton going for them. Dante’s soul, fear, and conceptual hax would easily beat out a very large majority of them. So Hoopa opening with anything but the creation trio or a really specific legendary isn’t going to do much of anything.

His army includes all the 2-A pokemon, wich would easily erase him in a 8v1

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I mean we usually do ‘anything goes’ but I wasn’t sure if that only applies to game characters or not.

If it applies to Hoopa here then saying he opens with the creation trio would be completely false and it’s very likely Dante defeats him then. As he just needs to fight random legendaries (many of which are 5-B to 6-B) or dodge portals.

You know Hoopa can summon other High 3-As too right?

And anyway, no, it wouldn’t be wrong to say he summons the CT since nothing explicitly says it would be wrong. Anything would go.

 

[Keeweed]

Once again whether he summons the creation trio or not is entirely random. We can’t assume he’ll open with the 2-As and there’s a larger chance that he won’t versus that he would.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

He did, but nothing about Hoopa says he’ll open with that. So he has a 1/30 or so chance of doing so versus Dante doing anything after closing the distance (There’s no way Hoopa is wining a sword fight with Dante with his skill disadvantage).

Anything dante does one shots hoopa. Skill isn't even a factor here.

 

[Regice]

But wouldn't summons be speed equalised too??
Aren't they??
insert Anakin Padme meme

Oh I forgot, he still has a chance to teleport him even with precog since speed is equal

 

[Keeweed]

You know Hoopa can summon other High 3-As too right?

And anyway, no, it wouldn’t be wrong to say he summons the CT since nothing explicitly says it would be wrong. Anything would go.

I know, but which Pokémon he summons is random. So it could be high 3-A, it could not be. And many of the high 3-As get stomped by Dante.

“Anything goes” doesn’t mean they auto do their best, it means they do literally anything at complete random. Him summoning the CT has a 1/30 chance and that’s only if he goes for summoning first.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Once again whether he summons the creation trio or not is entirely random. We can’t assume he’ll open with the 2-As and there’s a larger chance that he won’t versus that he would.

And we also can’t assume he wouldn’t either since nothing 100% says either or. Going by “chances” or likelihood for a character that has an anything goes mindset is silly to me, especially when the result hinges on what specific scenario you want to push for.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Him teleporting Dante away requires him to get him into a portal. Due to his precognition Dante would dodge that (Also I think Dante has teleportation in this key)

Yes...he has that since his 19 year old self.

He also has intangibility which even Nelo Angelo(Vergil) can't bypass even though he has same NPI&CM1 stuff as him

 

[Regice]

Anything dante does one shots hoopa. Skill isn't even a factor here.

Well he summons multiple legendaries, he could stall with portals and the speed being equalised while the 2-A's arrive

 

[Keeweed]

Then even going on “anything goes” Hoopa still shouldn’t be usable. We don’t assume characters without know tactics go for the very best option. We have never assumed that, so if he wins only due to specific scenarios then we shouldn’t use him.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Plus if Hoopa summons multiple legendaries at once, then there’s no reason to assume he’ll specifically leave out the CT.

 

[Everything12]

The chances aren't really that large, Hoopa Summoning a large amount of Legends in one go is how I fights. And as we don't know its tactics we normally assume it goes with the best optionm aka summon Creation Trio, as theirs no evidence to contry. Chances don't mean much as every versus ever with a character with no standard tactics know makes it clear we assume they make the smartest in-character move.

Basically what Keeweed just said above is wrong and we have sooo many threads with their results on profiles and on the Top list that says otherwise.

 

[Keeweed]

No there a good reason we should assume he’ll leave out the creation trio. We don’t even know if he’ll start with summoning to begin with. He’s as equally likely to start with a laser or smoke then he is to start with summoning Pokémon.

 

[Keeweed]

The chances aren't really that large, Hoopa Summoning a large amount of Legends in one go is how I fights. And as we don't know its tactics we normally assume it goes with the best optionm aka summon Creation Trio, as theirs no evidence to contry. Chances don't mean much as every versus ever with a character with no standard tactics know makes it clear we assume they make the smartest in-character move.

No we don’t. I know for fact we don’t assume they go with their best options. No thread with rpg characters has ever had that before and we always assume they go with something completely random. I can think of many fights where game characters have lost because they had a ton of win condition but we assumed they went with a random useless move instead majority of the time.

 

[Regice]

Well he could also summon the lake trio/darkrai who could also erase dante

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Then even going on “anything goes” Hoopa still shouldn’t be usable. We don’t assume characters without know tactics go for the very best option.

I disagree. We only consider it “the best option” because that option specifically is the best for this specific match. Going with anything you want isn’t automatically considered “the best” and even then, we have no information to say one way or the other on if he would or wouldn’t do that.

So unless the matchup entirely is just decided as an incon and closed, we can’t confirm or deny what would be done with 100% certainty.

We have never assumed that, so if he wins only due to specific scenarios then we shouldn’t use him.

Then see above. Or we get the standards changed to reflect what I said.

There’s no reason to argue against anything a character does if there’s no already known mindset. Arguing chances and likely hoods is just another way of arguing they wouldn’t do a certain thing when that goes against the point that we wouldn’t 100% know they wouldn’t do it. So to me at least, that’s counter intuitive and basically pointless.

 

[Everything12]

Now your just reaching, we don't know his first move, but we still have a vague of how he fights from all the media he is in. Portals and Summoning.

 

[Keeweed]

Once again whether he summons a Pokémon that works or not, and whether he even goes for summoning at all is entirely random. There is no reason to assume one side is more right than the other because we are arguing over a complete unknown. So this shouldn’t even be a thread.