Rocky (Verse) Upgrade

[KLOL506]

But as you said the problem with the straight dope article is that they say that Drago's glove would have an impact area of 4 square inches which as you said it's less than half the size of an unprotected fist and that's not very plausible, so i think your calc is more solid.

My 38 kJ calc also assumes the 4-square-inch size surface area since we're obviously not measuring Ivan's bare-fisted punching power.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I have never quite figured out what the standards of measuring punching force are. Like, punching force values would be the amount of pressure a punch exerts on an object, yes? However, that kinda depends on what is punched and with which equipment.
Like, the amount of force is directly related to how much the fist is decelerated. The faster it is decelerated, the greater the force. Hitting a wall would decelerate the fist very fast, resulting in a larger force, while hitting a cushion would decelerate it more slowly, resulting in a lesser force. Right?
So what is the reference object we're using? And is the force that is measured the peak force of the punch or the average force it has during deacceleration?

For the calc we can measure the area of his punch to figure out the force. Then we have to figure out the corresponding distance over which the fist decelerates. That depends on how that measurement works. And then we theoretically need to integrate the force function over said distance to get the joules.

So does anyone have detailed knowledge of punch measuring technology? I could make some assumptions over how it works, but it would be better to know.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So what is the reference object we're using?

Here's the full gif of the scene along with every punch measurement

 

[KLOL506]

I have never quite figured out what the standards of measuring punching force are. Like, punching force values would be the amount of pressure a punch exerts on an object, yes? However, that kinda depends on what is punched and with which equipment.
Like, the amount of force is directly related to how much the fist is decelerated. The faster it is decelerated, the greater the force. Hitting a wall would decelerate the fist very fast, resulting in a larger force, while hitting a cushion would decelerate it more slowly, resulting in a lesser force. Right?
So what is the reference object we're using? And is the force that is measured the peak force of the punch or the average force it has during deacceleration?

For the calc we can measure the area of his punch to figure out the force. Then we have to figure out the corresponding distance over which the fist decelerates. That depends on how that measurement works. And then we theoretically need to integrate the force function over said distance to get the joules.

So does anyone have detailed knowledge of punch measuring technology? I could make some assumptions over how it works, but it would be better to know.

IIRC Gwyn said we'd also need to know the exact force that Ivan's muscles are generating, or else the force times distance formula doesn't work.

As for the area, one of those news articles said Drago's boxing glove would be around 4 square inches worth of impact (0.0026-ish square meters), but that's like, way smaller than a bare fist's impact area (Using my fist as a reference here, 8 x 7 cm which equates to 56 cm area or 0.0056 square meters, but again, Dolph Lundgren's hand might be bigger than mine and I'm a skinny dude so...)

As for punch-measuring technology, nah, I have no idea. IIRC in IRL tests most people use punching bags or some weird punch-o-meter but in the latter's case it's been noted to be nothing but fluff.

 

[DontTalkDT]

IIRC Gwyn said we'd also need to know the exact force that Ivan's muscles are generating, or else the force times distance formula doesn't work.

Idk, that depends on which distance we use. If we use the distance the machine moved, or the distance over which things are decelerated, I don't think it's necessary. At least not for a low-end.

The problem is that Idk how the machine measures force, i.e. what the force value even is referring to.
Worst case the machine measures the impact force on the cushion, making the deceleration distance like 1cm or so, and our low-end would be whichever force we get times 0.01m. And that's assuming average force is measured and not peak force...

A better case would be if the machine measured the average force applied over the distance it is pushed back, as Gwyn assumed in this calc version. (later in the comments at least)
That would give the 0.167 m * 49349 N value from Gwyn's calc.

As for the area, one of those news articles said Drago's boxing glove would be around 4 square inches worth of impact (0.0026-ish square meters), but that's like, way smaller than a bare fist's impact area (Using my fist as a reference here, 8 x 7 cm which equates to 56 cm area or 0.0056 square meters, but again, Dolph Lundgren's hand might be bigger than mine and I'm a skinny dude so...)

Area is the smallest problem. One could possible just do scaling of his gloves or something to figure a value out. (My fist is around 35cm^2, though)

 

[KLOL506]

All we know is that the force machine only measures stuff in psi, or pounds per square inch, as explicitly stated by Ivan's trainer and in the machine itself in the movie. Which is clearly not a unit that is used to measure IRL punches at all.

Also in the GIF there is a simulation shown where the force of Ivan's punch is shown to spread out in a checquered area, no idea what that even represents.

 

[KLOL506]

The news articles however, state that Ivan's 2150 psi punch has an impact area of 4 square inches based on his gloves and then assumes that 2150 psi is applied on that specific area, with the final resutlty being 8600 ft-lb of force, which can be directly converted to joules, which gives us 11.66 kJ.

 

[KLOL506]

Idk, that depends on which distance we use. If we use the distance the machine moved, or the distance over which things are decelerated, I don't think it's necessary. At least not for a low-end.

Actually, now that I remember, there is a problem with using the displacement on the machine.

The machine has a spring on it, allowing it to travel freely regardless of who punches it.

Last I remember, most punches are measured to carry on over a foot.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Looking at the references for common feats page, it takes 2363 ft-lbs/3204 J to shatter a human skull. Assuming the measurements in Rocky IV were actually supposed to be ft-lbs instead of psi, that means Drago can deform a skull with one punch but not totally splatter one, putting him at Street level. Using the numbers put forth by the articles and converted by KLOL though, that puts him at Street Level+, though perhaps an argument could be made that Viktor and those comparable or superior to him could be around baseline 9-B, since he was pretty much specifically trained to be superior to prime Ivan Drago

 

[NeoTengus]

Understood, but i don't think Drago is only street level, since trained fighters in real life are said to only strike within the range of 194 to 336 PSI at best and before someone says that elite boxers like Mike Tyson or some hard punchers fighters in MMA can punch at 1,800 psi, like some sites claims, No Mike Tyson's punches never have been measured, but it said that they did measure those of his rival Frank Bruno, who was estimated to land 1,420 POUNDS OF FORCE which is different from PSI, the sites that i mentioned probably mistaked pounds of force for psi, here you can see how real boxers compare to Drago in terms of punching power, according to the same site (STRAIGHT DOPE) "If a punch thrown by Rocky IV villain Ivan Drago is supposed to measure 2,150 psi and his glove’s impact area is something like four square inches, he’d be exerting a force of 8,600 pounds, or more than four tons."

I don't think anyone in real life (Including Peak Humans) has the punching power of Ivan Drago.

So i still think Drago and other Rocky fighters should remain 9-B.

Regarding PSI vs Lbs of force.

They were commonly used interchangeably in layman's usage.

I remember crocodile bite forces always used to be stated to be "over 3000 pounds per square inch!" in countless nature docs until eventually a scientist or two started making the correction that its measured in lbs of force.

I'm pretty sure that's the case for Drago too. They meant it in lbs of force but didn't know the correct terminology.

 

[KLOL506]

One more thing.

2150 psi is 1.4824e+7 Pa.

The surface area used is also wrong. It should be the impact area of the glove, which is a lot bigger than the 25 cm^2 the old Gwynbleidd calc used (Hell, the calc's value is smaller than my own fist's impact area of 49 cm^2 or 0.0049 m^2).

Then you multiply the Pa value with the m^2 value to get force in Newtons, then multiply with the distance, over a foot (0.3048 m), because of the aptly named ft-lbs., to get the energy yield in joules.

 

[Silvervigilant]

Looking at the references for common feats page, it takes 2363 ft-lbs/3204 J to shatter a human skull. Assuming the measurements in Rocky IV were actually supposed to be ft-lbs instead of psi, that means Drago can deform a skull with one punch but not totally splatter one, putting him at Street level. Using the numbers put forth by the articles and converted by KLOL though, that puts him at Street Level+, though perhaps an argument could be made that Viktor and those comparable or superior to him could be around baseline 9-B, since he was pretty much trained to be superior to prime Ivan Drago

Ivan may have trained his son with the intention of making him better than his prime self. But that doesn't mean he actually succeeded. Drago had the whole Soviet Union backing him up. He had access to the best equipments, trainers, doctors, scientists, and performance enhancing drugs, along with an insane training regime. Viktor did not have any of those things, and there's nothing in the film that indicates that he surpassed or even is comparable to his father. In fact, we never see any fighter in Creed lift someone's feet off the ground with their punches like Rocky, Drago, Clubber, and Tommy did. Viktor broke his hand when hit by a baton, do you really think he's stronger than Ivan?. Anyway, he still should scale to 700 PSI, since a normal heavyweight in Rocky/Creed universe can punch at this level.

While we can argue that the filmmaker's intentions in Rocky 4 were supposed to make Drago's punch be 2150 ft-lbs instead of psi, this will only be a speculation, we have to analyze the feat for what it is and not for what was supposed to be. In the movie, the feat is crystal clear, Drago punches the machine and the machine give his results in PSI, simple. Also, Sly who is the screenwriter and director of the movie could have changed or deleted this scene in his new version Rocky vs Drago, but he didn't. So we can't be 100% sure of what the filmmakers intentions were.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So what need to be done here? I know this thread was posted back in 2021 and that it went from being an upgrade proposal to plans for a downgrade based on the complications to PSI formula. There was a recalculation to Street level+, but now there's issues with that?

 

[Silvervigilant]

So what need to be done here? I know this thread was posted back in 2021 and that it went from being an upgrade proposal to plans for a downgrade based on the complications to PSI formula. There was a recalculation to Street level+, but now there's issues with that?

I honestly don't know but i still think that @KLOL506 38 kJ calc is the one that makes more sense.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So what need to be done here? I know this thread was posted back in 2021 and that it went from being an upgrade proposal to plans for a downgrade based on the complications to PSI formula. There was a recalculation to Street level+, but now there's issues with that?

Basically the issue is "Do we take the on screen unit that's incorrect or the intended unit that's more in-line with correct figures".

 

[Silvervigilant]

Basically the issue is "Do we take the on screen unit that's incorrect or the intended unit that's more in-line with correct figures".

As i said earlier While we can argue that the filmmaker's intentions in Rocky 4 were supposed to make Drago's punch be 2150 ft-lbs instead of psi, this will only be a speculation, we have to analyze the feat for what it is and not for what was supposed to be. In the movie, the feat is crystal clear, Drago punches the machine and the machine give his results in PSI, simple. Also, Sly who is the screenwriter and director of the movie could have changed or deleted this scene in his new version Rocky vs Drago, but he didn't. So we can't be 100% sure of what the filmmakers intentions were.

This just my humble opnion tho.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Ivan may have trained his son with the intention of making him better than his prime self. But that doesn't mean he actually succeeded. Drago had the whole Soviet Union backing him up. He had access to the best equipments, trainers, doctors, scientists, and performance enhancing drugs, along with an insane training regime. Viktor did not have any of those things, and there's nothing in the film that indicates that he surpassed or even is comparable to his father. In fact, we never see any fighter in Creed lift someone's feet off the ground with their punches like Rocky, Drago, Clubber, and Tommy did. Viktor broke his hand when hit by a baton, do you really think he's stronger than Ivan?. Anyway, he still should scale to 700 PSI, since a normal heavyweight in Rocky/Creed universe can punch at this level.

While we can argue that the filmmaker's intentions in Rocky 4 were supposed to make Drago's punch be 2150 ft-lbs instead of psi, this will only be a speculation, we have to analyze the feat for what it is and not for what was supposed to be. In the movie, the feat is crystal clear, Drago punches the machine and the machine give his results in PSI, simple. Also, Sly who is the screenwriter and director of the movie could have changed or deleted this scene in his new version Rocky vs Drago, but he didn't. So we can't be 100% sure of what the filmmakers intentions were.

According to his profile and the interview that is linked to in his AP section, Viktor is comparable to prime Ivan. And afaik it was Ivan already showing extraordinary power and fighting ability prior to the high-tech training that got him scouted as the USSR's boxing pride and joy. Plus, the series generally shows that low-tech but highly personalized and focused training is the best option, as shown in Rocky's training in his fourth film and Adonis's second training montage in his second film.

 

[KLOL506]

Basically the issue is "Do we take the on screen unit that's incorrect or the intended unit that's more in-line with correct figures".

The on-screen unit would absolutely take precedence. They explicitly stated the terms "pounds per square inch", not pounds of force, which is ft-lbs normally.

Doesn't matter tho, we just need the impact area of the glove and the displacement value is already given for us, one foot.

 

[KLOL506]

I honestly don't know but i still think that @KLOL506 38 kJ calc is the one that makes more sense.

It's lower, but still Wall level if you use my fist impact area. Around 22 kJ IIRC.

Unless of course, you can find Dolph Lundgren's fist impact area.