Naruto Part II Revisions (Multipliers/Calculations)

[LordTracer]

In base as comic relief.
I want you to take this to a formal debate and see if they'll laugh or not. In all seriousness.

You do realize that Naruto’s reaction to Sakura’s strength in the beginning of Part II was used to say that she’s stronger than him, right?

In her own delusional mind. They both had to save her right after.

That does not mean they’re automatically stronger. Also call her delusional if you want, that just means you’re ignoring what the manga blatantly says. The databook (that you have been using, I remind you) also supports Sakura being this strong. And again, Sasuke considered Naruto the weak link of the three. And he clearly wasn’t trying to make Sakura feel better, cause we see later in this same arc that if Sasuke thinks you’re useless, he will tell you to your face. Are Sasuke and the databook delusional now?

By Hashirama who saw Tsunade when she was like 5.

Statement still exists, and there is literally no reason to treat it as invalid. Unless, again, you plan to ignore what the manga blatantly says.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

The databook (that you have been using, I remind you) also supports Sakura being this strong.

The Databook is stating that Sakura’s no longer a reliability, not that she’s on their level. Otherwise, the Databook is saying that Sakura it’s at the same level as KCM Nardo/MSE Sasuki-kun and SO6P Nardo/Rinnegan Sasuki-kun at the same time, which is utterly nonsensical as those two versions of Nardo and Sasuki-kun are on completely different leagues.

And he clearly wasn’t trying to make Sakura feel better, cause we see later in this same arc that if Sasuke thinks you’re useless, he will tell you to your face.

I mean, this is true. It’s also true that he doesn’t sees Sakura as useful as Naruto.

Statement still exists, and there is literally no reason to treat it as invalid.

They literally told you the reason, and it’s a very valid one.

 

[LordTracer]

I mean, this is true. It’s also true that he doesn’t sees Sakura as useful as Naruto.

Sakura isn’t even there, what?

The Databook is stating that Sakura’s no longer a reliability, not that she’s on their level.

“She strongly lent against their two backs, which she had just reached.” That, coupled with Sakura’s own statements in the manga, is saying that she’s on their level.

Otherwise, the Databook is saying that Sakura it’s at the same level as KCM Nardo/MSE Sasuki-kun and SO6P Nardo/Rinnegan Sasuki-kun at the same time, which is utterly nonsensical as those two versions of Nardo and Sasuki-kun are on completely different leagues.

Ah, note that it shows her standing with KCM/EMS and Team 7 sealing Kaguya in two different places. The statement of her never falling behind them is invalid because that’s comparing her to SPSM/Rinnegan, but the statement of her having just reached them is clearly referencing her statements about KCM/EMS.

They literally told you the reason, and it’s a very valid one.

Why is the statement there if it isn’t meant to be taken seriously though? Like, seriously. If you want to say Hashirama has no idea what he’s talking about, then why was the statement even made in the first place? And this is just an assumption on my part, and doesn’t really mean anything, but remember that Hashirama knows Tsunade is the Fifth Hokage now, so he could be assuming that she’s “Kage level.” Also Tsunade considers herself and Sakura to both be adepts of the 100H mark.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Once again, I missed a fuckton of stuff today. I agree with LordTracer.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Sakura being on the level of KCM Naruto and base Sasuke is heavily implied by the context presented in the manga.
I mean if it was just ONE thing, or a simple throwaway statement, then I'd completely understand dismissing it. Instead we have Naruto's statement, Sakura's statement, Sasuke implying that she's at least able to compete on his and Naruto's level, Hashirama's statement, and the Databook statement.
I'm not a particularly big Sakura fan or anything, but I think there's just an insane amount of contextual evidence that supports the notion of her being in a similar ballpark to them. There's also the fact that she was shown and stated (by both Shizune and Tsunade) to be almost as, if not as, adept at 100H as Tsunade. So her skill level at the technique that's mostly responsible for Tsunade's strength is at least close.
As for the Hashirama statement, yes, I understand that it's extremely weird and a bit nonsensical, but it's still there. To me it's an obvious self insert from Kishimoto to hammer the point he's trying to make. Could it have been done better? Hell yes, but the same could be said for the grand majority of the War arc's second half, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
I think it's at least worth considering as support for her being in a similar ballpark.
So, I really don't think it's fair to just dismiss all of this context for no real reason. Especially due to Sakura's lack of feats at that point in the story, it's almost impossible to scale her without using these statements. At least without grossly downplaying her. These are my two cents anyway.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Sakura being on the level of KCM Naruto and base Sasuke is heavily implied by the context presented in the manga.
I mean if it was just ONE thing, or a simple throwaway statement, then I'd completely understand dismissing it. Instead we have Naruto's statement, Sakura's statement, Sasuke implying that she's at least able to compete on his and Naruto's level, Hashirama's statement, and the Databook statement.
I'm not a particularly big Sakura fan or anything, but I think there's just an insane amount of contextual evidence that supports the notion of her being in a similar ballpark to them. There's also the fact that she was shown and stated (by both Shizune and Tsunade) to be almost as, if not as, adept at 100H as Tsunade. So her skill level at the technique that's mostly responsible for Tsunade's strength is at least close.
As for the Hashirama statement, yes, I understand that it's extremely weird and a bit nonsensical, but it's still there. To me it's an obvious self insert from Kishimoto to hammer the point he's trying to make. Could it have been done better? Hell yes, but the same could be said for the grand majority of the War arc's second half, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
I think it's at least worth considering as support for her being in a similar ballpark.
So, I really don't think it's fair to just dismiss all of this context for no real reason. Especially due to Sakura's lack of feats at that point in the story, it's almost impossible to scale her without using these statements. At least without grossly downplaying her. These are my two cents anyway.

Agreed.

 

[Padaruyos]

Sakura being on the level of KCM Naruto and base Sasuke is heavily implied by the context presented in the manga.
I mean if it was just ONE thing, or a simple throwaway statement, then I'd completely understand dismissing it. Instead we have Naruto's statement, Sakura's statement, Sasuke implying that she's at least able to compete on his and Naruto's level, Hashirama's statement, and the Databook statement.
I'm not a particularly big Sakura fan or anything, but I think there's just an insane amount of contextual evidence that supports the notion of her being in a similar ballpark to them. There's also the fact that she was shown and stated (by both Shizune and Tsunade) to be almost as, if not as, adept at 100H as Tsunade. So her skill level at the technique that's mostly responsible for Tsunade's strength is at least close.
As for the Hashirama statement, yes, I understand that it's extremely weird and a bit nonsensical, but it's still there. To me it's an obvious self insert from Kishimoto to hammer the point he's trying to make. Could it have been done better? Hell yes, but the same could be said for the grand majority of the War arc's second half, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
I think it's at least worth considering as support for her being in a similar ballpark.
So, I really don't think it's fair to just dismiss all of this context for no real reason. Especially due to Sakura's lack of feats at that point in the story, it's almost impossible to scale her without using these statements. At least without grossly downplaying her. These are my two cents anyway.

Agree, Sakura isn't as weak as a lot of the memes about her might say.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Jesus Christ, we're 10 Pages in now....

 

[Padaruyos]

And we haven't even gotten into the God Tiers yet.

 

[LordTracer]

This is the magic of the War Arc.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Oh Boi, can't wait for that shit....

 

[LordTracer]

And if I’ve understood correctly, there’s gonna be a speed revision after the AP revisions are done. So that’s gonna be fun too.

And then we gotta do New Era after that.

 

[KingTempest]

If I removed a certain point, it's me agreeing. It's just so this doesn't get too long, because we're at 10 pages already and we're not even halfway done.

Nothing in that scan says that it was weakened. The chains don’t even have aura, which you previously tried to use to say they had the same qualities as the rods.

Next page, Guy asks why is he bottling up the bijuu's power, backed up by the same page where the same bijuu powered down into a V2 state.

He is not breaking the Susano’o there. It’s still very clearly visible while Sasuke is on the ground. I can circle it if you can’t see it. Also literally turn the page to the next chapter and it’s still there.

There's shown fragments of the Susanoo on A's left arm. You can see a large crack across a rib on the second to the top on the left of this picture.

Why are you so obsessed with striking strength? I hope you realize that I’ve been talking about attack potency this whole time. Sasuke not being a smart fighter doesn’t change that he wanted to kill Naruto. That was his entire plan, so saying that he wasn’t trying to hurt Naruto is, no offense, dumb.

Because you said that Naruto was keeping up with him even though he wasn't serious, and 90% of the fight before that was them punching and kicking.
I'm not saying he wasn't trying to hurt Naruto, but he could've hurt him much more.

It wouldn’t unless there’s a better calc for it. And considering that her calc for that isn’t on the Naruto verse page, I believe it would’ve been discarded. So she’d just get a ‘higher’ with the paper sea.

Nah it would definitely be 6-C if all this scaling goes through. She was able to destroy Obito's body & kill him, the same Obito that tanked a rasengan from Minato, who rivals Ay and cut through Killer B's tentacle when he fought the brothers. So that would be 6-C.

Here’s the issue with this. Obito didn’t ever harm Minato. Or match any of his attacks. He only survived a Rasengan to the back and caught Minato’s wrist mid-swing when the fight started. So if anything, Obito would only have durability on Minato’s level, not AP.

He has 2 potential AP feats.
1, like you said, catching Minato's wrist mid-swing. 2. Holding him in the chain. Minato says "This is all going to be over for one of us in an instant", so he knows the possibility of him losing is there. He should definitely scale, no questions asked.

I’m not saying he didn’t have that jutsu before. I’m saying that before, it wouldn’t have had the AP to harm Gyūki.

You and me both can't argue that. We don't know of the potency of it beforehand. We get one statement about the move from the databook that says it depends on the ground and it grows from a tiny amount of chakra, and it seems to have a fixed temperature, so I don't know.

Ao then says Danzō can’t be trusted so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Then Obito confirms it and says his power comes back and he was contemplating on using it for either OP genjutsu or Hax genjutsu ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I’ll concede this point, buuuut if the golem was destroyed, then what’s this huge mass in front of the Majestic Attire? Cause it’s not one of the hands coming out of the ground.

That's the initial hand that caught the Susanoo sword around the Buddha's hand. If you zoom in closely, you can see fragments of previously destroyed wood, then in every fist that comes out of the ground, you see a shockwave or a dust cloud.

My main argument was that a non exploding bijuudama ≠ exploded bijuudama. We see w/ the wood dragon, the wood golem, and the head that they all have different feats, so I can just say it's based on the amount of chakra is put into each area. Wood dragon got destroyed by non exploding bijuudama. Wood golem caught it and widthstood it perfectly fine but was destroyed by explosion.

I'm not gonna be an asshole and say "so I won" because I honestly and obviously didn't, but my main point was that Naruto slapping away the non exploded bijuudama ≠ Naruto slapping away the explosion.

 

[LordTracer]

Next page, Guy asks why is he bottling up the bijuu's power, backed up by the same page where the same bijuu powered down into a V2 state.

That’s fair, I’ll give you that.

There's shown fragments of the Susanoo on A's left arm. You can see a large crack across a rib on the second to the top on the left of this picture.

I do see a single crack and the fragments, but it’s not a major or even significant break. It’s more like A chipping at the Susano’o.

Because you said that Naruto was keeping up with him even though he wasn't serious, and 90% of the fight before that was them punching and kicking.
I'm not saying he wasn't trying to hurt Naruto, but he could've hurt him much more.

I mean, yeah, Naruto clashed evenly with Sasuke at several points during the fight despite Sasuke going for the kill and Naruto doing the opposite. Sure, Sasuke could’ve used way more of his Rinnegan techniques, but Naruto also had techniques to spare. Off topic, but that’s one of the reasons I dislike people claiming New Era Naruto and Sasuke were nerfed just because they don’t use certain techniques when they didn’t even use them much during Part II.

He has 2 potential AP feats.
1, like you said, catching Minato's wrist mid-swing. 2. Holding him in the chain. Minato says "This is all going to be over for one of us in an instant", so he knows the possibility of him losing is there. He should definitely scale, no questions asked.

Knowing some people here, I don’t think Obito catching his wrist would be counted as an AP feat. Him catching Minato in the chains could be, but you could also argue that he was only able to do that because Minato wasn’t expecting it. Plus Minato’s Rasengan kinda caused Obito to melt after it hit him, lol, so eh... I personally am neutral, leaning disagree, on the idea of Obito scaling to Minato, but I feel like the feats aren’t quite good enough.

You and me both can't argue that. We don't know of the potency of it beforehand. We get one statement about the move from the databook that says it depends on the ground and it grows from a tiny amount of chakra, and it seems to have a fixed temperature, so I don't know.

I mean, unless Pre-Rinnegan Obito scales to Minato, we can’t claim that it’s always been 6-C no matter what. If Pre-Rinnegan Obito doesn’t scale to Minato, it’d probably just be 7-A since the singular feat that Pre-Rinnegan has outside of fighting Konan and Minato is casually blocking Suigetsu.

I'm not gonna be an asshole and say "so I won" because I honestly and obviously didn't, but my main point was that Naruto slapping away the non exploded bijuudama ≠ Naruto slapping away the explosion.

Did you see the point I made afterwards about this though? Gyūki survived his own Bijuudama exploding but the Four-Tails and Five-Tails can harm him with their physicals, and their Bijuudama would scale to that, exploded or not.

 

[KingTempest]

@EveryoneWhoThinksSakuraScales hell no.

I was getting jumped the other day and someone mentioned Kurama Chakra Mode > Sage Mode Naruto. We know that Naruto was stated to surpass Jiraiya right? So let's get to it. KCM1 > SM Naruto right? Alrighty.

The Sannin are all equals. Tsunade, Orochimaru, and Jiraiya are all equals.
Since Hashirama wants to compare a tryhard Sakura to a toddler Tsunade, I'll just say that them right now are both equals, or relative to each other.
KCM1 Naruto > SM Naruto > SM Jiraiya ~ Peak Orochimaru ~ 100 Healings Tsunade ~ 100 Healings Sakura.

Equals does not mean power all the time. We had this same conversation w/ Shukaku and Gaara. It means their usefulness.

The first instance they all had after Sakura said that controversial statement, they showcased their usefulness.
Naruto and Sasuke attacked the main body, Sakura stood back to heal. She is useful now. Not as strong as them, but equal.

Sakura was tryharding on a juubi spawn that no dojutsu and sword Sasuke and base Naruto were fighting.

Sakura doesn't scale.

 

[LordTracer]

You do know that none of the statements about Sakura say the word equal, right? Your entire point is kinda harping on that, but that isn’t what the manga and databook say.

 

[KingTempest]

I mean, yeah, Naruto clashed evenly with Sasuke at several points during the fight despite Sasuke going for the kill and Naruto doing the opposite. Sure, Sasuke could’ve used way more of his Rinnegan techniques, but Naruto also had techniques to spare. Off topic, but that’s one of the reasons I dislike people claiming New Era Naruto and Sasuke were nerfed just because they don’t use certain techniques when they didn’t even use them much during Part II.

I agree 2000%

Knowing some people here, I don’t think Obito catching his wrist would be counted as an AP feat. Him catching Minato in the chains could be, but you could also argue that he was only able to do that because Minato wasn’t expecting it. Plus Minato’s Rasengan kinda caused Obito to melt after it hit him, lol, so eh... I personally am neutral, leaning disagree, on the idea of Obito scaling to Minato, but I feel like the feats aren’t quite good enough.

It's just likely that he scales, can't confirm it, but likely. He barely has any feats, but oh well.

I mean, unless Pre-Rinnegan Obito scales to Minato, we can’t claim that it’s always been 6-C no matter what. If Pre-Rinnegan Obito doesn’t scale to Minato, it’d probably just be 7-A since the singular feat that Pre-Rinnegan has outside of fighting Konan and Minato is casually blocking Suigetsu.

I'm boutta argue against that 6-C everybody right now.

Did you see the point I made afterwards about this though? Gyūki survived his own Bijuudama exploding but the Four-Tails and Five-Tails can harm him with their physicals, and their Bijuudama would scale to that, exploded or not.

See, I gotta rant about that real quick. HE DID NOT SURVIVE THAT CASUALLY.
We see the Juubi flick the bijuudama back right?
Killer Bee takes the unexploded bijuudama in his stomach. He's just chillin.
We see it blow up, and we see Naruto saying "forgive me". That says a lot, but lemme stop.
WE SEE ALL OF THE BLOOD FROM THAT EXPLOSION. He looks like (for One Piece fans) ZORO.
He took a break from chapter 611-615 to charge up and stop fighting. I don't wanna hear it.
Are yall really comparing somebody getting body slammed and rammed (THEN HE GETS RIGHT BACK UP AND FIGHTS THEM) to somebody getting BLOWN UP by their STRONGEST ATTACK???????
Someone please come and tell me he scales right now.

And before you say "unexploded bijuudama = exploded bijuudama" or anything else.

Please tell me right now that Killer B's Island - Country Level Bijuudama = Juubi's Multi Continental Bijuudama. I wanna hear it RIGHT NOW. That is what will decide how I view you for the rest of the thread. I wanna hear it now that Killer B's CHARGED UP bijuudama (not the mini ones that bounced off after) that pushed back the other bijuudama, scales above Naruto and the 5 bijuu's bijuudama COMBINED. It can't be an outlier since there's not enough anti feats. I wanna hear yall say it.

 

[KingTempest]

You do know that none of the statements about Sakura say the word equal, right? Your entire point is kinda harping on that, but that isn’t what the manga and databook say.

Caught up is similar, yall understand my point. We're not about to argue over my diction.

 

[LordTracer]

HE DID NOT SURVIVE THAT CASUALLY.

You’re right didn’t. But, he survived it without being knocked unconscious or killed.

WE SEE ALL OF THE BLOOD FROM THAT EXPLOSION.

You’re definitely overrating how much blood it there. It’s not like Gyūki is spewing blood out of every orfice on his body, there’s only a few streaks of it on his tentacles.

He took a break from chapter 611-615 to charge up and stop fighting.

Yeah, cause he was out of chakra (and not just from surviving the Bijuudama), he’d been fighting the Juubi for a while before that (and even spammed Bijuudamas at it).

Are yall really comparing somebody getting body slammed and rammed (THEN HE GETS RIGHT BACK UP AND FIGHTS THEM) to somebody getting BLOWN UP by their STRONGEST ATTACK???????

First of all, calm down please. There’s no need to be shouting. Second of all, Gyūki’s tanked Kurama’s Bijuudama with minimal damage while the Five-Tails drew blood with its physical strikes. And no, because I’m sure you’ll accuse me of it, I am not trying to scale the Five-Tails to Kurama. I’m just showing that Gyūki can withstand Bijuudamas exploding.

Please tell me right now that Killer B's Island - Country Level Bijuudama = Juubi's Multi Continental Bijuudama. I wanna hear it RIGHT NOW. That is what will decide how I view you for the rest of the thread. I wanna hear it now that Killer B's CHARGED UP bijuudama (not the mini ones that bounced off after) that pushed back the other bijuudama, scales above Naruto and the 5 bijuu's bijuudama COMBINED. It can't be an outlier since there's not enough anti feats. I wanna hear yall say it.

It actually can be an outlier, as we have Gyūki’s peak Bijuudama calced. And you know where it ended up? Small Country level. Also, y’know, it’s the whole-ass Juubi, the same creature that was kinda fondling Kurama and Gyūki in its First Form. So yeah, Gyūki pushing back its Second Form is an outlier.

 

[LordTracer]

Caught up is similar, yall understand my point. We're not about to argue over my diction.

I mean, your argument is on the basis of the use of a word so we kinda have to argue diction ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Also your argument is about their usefulness and claiming that Sakura is useful at that point... but she’s always been useful in Part II. Even before achieving the 100H mark, she’s still a medical-nin, and still useful. She also assisted in defeat of one of the members of Akatsuki, she didn’t only now start being useful.

Also no offense, but the way you word some things kinda makes it seem like you have a bit of a bias against Sakura.

 

[Kin201]

I agree. Gyuki's own Bijuu bomb heavily damaged him, thus it should scale significantly above his regular stats.

 

[KingTempest]

You’re right didn’t. But, he survived it without being knocked unconscious or killed.

The fourth raikage chopped his arm off while it was burning and didn't even blink. He doesn't have his base Dura = Armored AP cause of not being knocked out.
Deidara's arm got crushed and yeeted off, went to use ninjutsu in the next chapter. He survived his arm getting sent to another dimension, that's not durability.
The third raikage stabbed himself and didn't blink.
That isn't durability, that's endurance.
Durability is the property which guarantees the ability to withstand a certain amount of force. This is not to be confused with endurance; while durability is the ability to withstand damage, endurance is a measure of Stamina.
Stamina is an attribute that allows a certain character to remain active, exert itself to prolonged periods of time, and recover from ordeals.

You’re definitely overrating how much blood it there. It’s not like Gyūki is spewing blood out of every orfice on his body, there’s only a few streaks of it on his tentacles.

True

Yeah, cause he was out of chakra (and not just from surviving the Bijuudama), he’d been fighting the Juubi for a while before that (and even spammed Bijuudamas at it).

If he was completely out, he would've died. He should not have 6-C dura at all. He was screaming.

First of all, calm down please. There’s no need to be shouting.

I'm emotional ;(

Second of all, Gyūki’s tanked Kurama’s Bijuudama with minimal damage while the Five-Tails drew blood with its physical strikes. And no, because I’m sure you’ll accuse me of it, I am not trying to scale the Five-Tails to Kurama. I’m just showing that Gyūki can withstand Bijuudamas exploding.

Bijuudama waves are astronomically weaker than the actual explosions. Suigetsu survived a bijuudama wave for christ sake. It wasn't a regular bijuudama either.

When Naruto was in 4 tails, he couldn't hold the mass of a bijuudama (shown by how he was sinking into the ground).
Orochimaru confirms that that attack would kill him.
Naruto puts it in his mouth (sinks into the ground) and burps out a bunch of smoke, then fires it as a wave (like what happened in Naruto's mind).
Orochimaru survives w/ no scratches, only heavy ass knockback.

When Naruto was in 6 tails, he could hold it, and fire it without it losing its density or being turned into smoke prior.

It actually can be an outlier, as we have Gyūki’s peak Bijuudama calced. And you know where it ended up? Small Country level.

That's the explosion that's 6-C, not the ball. No anti feats prove that exploded = non-exploded. It's like the missile example from Damage.

 

[KingTempest]

I mean, your argument is on the basis of the use of a word so we kinda have to argue diction ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Equal ≥ Caught up, so technically, I'm highballing ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Also your argument is about their usefulness and claiming that Sakura is useful at that point... but she’s always been useful in Part II. Even before achieving the 100H mark, she’s still a medical-nin, and still useful. She also assisted in defeat of one of the members of Akatsuki, she didn’t only now start being useful.

I meant equal use. Everyone in Konoha is useful, but just equal use in terms of Naruto and Sasuke.

Also no offense, but the way you word some things kinda makes it seem like you have a bit of a bias against Sakura.

I used to be one of those people who tried to scale Sakura to 5-B (in planetary Naruto days). I just sat down one day and said "this makes no sense"

 

[LordTracer]

The fourth raikage chopped his arm off while it was burning and didn't even blink. He doesn't have his base Dura = Armored AP cause of not being knocked out.
Deidara's arm got crushed and yeeted off, went to use ninjutsu in the next chapter. He survived his arm getting sent to another dimension, that's not durability.
The third raikage stabbed himself and didn't blink.
That isn't durability, that's endurance.

None of these are the same thing that happened to Gyūki. Gyūki didn’t lose a limb or anything like that. His body is intact apart from a bit of blood. And yes, that is enough to scale durability considering that some characters on this wiki have their durability scaled from attacks that nearly killed them.

If he was completely out, he would've died.

Eh... Obito said he was out.

Suigetsu survived a bijuudama wave for christ sake.

I’m almost 100% sure Suigetsu was amped when that happened, so...

He should not have 6-C dura at all. He was screaming.

Screaming when an attack hits you =/= your durability doesn’t scale.

Bijuudama waves are astronomically weaker than the actual explosions

Gyūki tanked the explosion though. It very clearly exploded in his mouth and he had little damage.

Orochimaru survives w/ no scratches, only heavy ass knockback.

Mmmmm, did you forget that Orochimaru (in the next two pages) put up the Triple Rashomon to protect himself? Oro didn’t just tank that with his not young Uchiha body. Also it wasn’t just knockback, his legs were extremely broken and he had to spawn a new body afterwards.

I'm emotional ;(

Let’s try to keep it chill, I’d rather this not turn into a stereotypical HST debate with a lot of yelling.

 

[LordTracer]

Equal ≥ Caught up, so technically, I'm highballing ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Actually lowballing since Sasuke and Naruto’s own statements put her above Naruto. [insert smug face that I can’t post cause we’re not on Discord]

I meant equal use. Everyone in Konoha is useful, but just equal use in terms of Naruto and Sasuke.

Fair. Although since the term equal wasn’t ever used it doesn’t really mater UwU

I used to be one of those people who tried to scale Sakura to 5-B (in planetary Naruto days). I just sat down one day and said "this makes no sense"

Uh, yeah, scaling her to SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke (especially after Sasuke told her that she was useless now) makes no sense. Scaling her to KCM and EMS makes sense, is supported by the manga and the databook, and is implied by the narrative (although I will admit this last point is kinda subjective).

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

IIRC Suigetsu was inside and using a huge amount of water when he got blasted by Gyuki

 

[LordTracer]

IIRC Suigetsu was inside and using a huge amount of water when he got blasted by Gyuki

He was. And he got KOed by the Bijuudama.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Would that be a Feat for Suigetsu's Water Manipulation Lifting Strength?

 

[LordTracer]

Would that be a Feat for Suigetsu's Water Manipulation Lifting Strength?

Could be. It also means Suigetsu could get a ‘higher via absorbing water’ tier.

 

[KingTempest]

None of these are the same thing that happened to Gyūki. Gyūki didn’t lose a limb or anything like that. His body is intact apart from a bit of blood. And yes, that is enough to scale durability considering that some characters on this wiki have their durability scaled from attacks that nearly killed them.

I would need context on those characters.
Killer B got hit with an explosion, and it was so bad that he couldn't maintain his mode. Even if he gets the dura, unless someone caused similar damage that that explosion did (no one even made him bleed), then they shouldn't scale.

And isn't losing limbs just DC instead of AP?

Eh... Obito said he was out.

A lot of ppl say others are out of chakra. Itachi said Sasuke was out then he did Kirin.

I’m almost 100% sure Suigetsu was amped when that happened, so...

He just had access to more water, and regardless that would just make a new key "more water for water boy". I never said he wasn't amped, I'm just saying, it's suigetsu.

Screaming when an attack hits you =/= your durability doesn’t scale.

He was in much pain.

Gyūki tanked the explosion though. It very clearly exploded in his mouth and he had little damage.

It didn't explode in his mouth.
He formed the bijuudama in front of his mouth, then the wave fired outside outside of his mouth towards suigetsu.

Mmmmm, did you forget that Orochimaru (in the next two pages) put up the Triple Rashomon to protect himself? Oro didn’t just tank that with his not young Uchiha body. Also it wasn’t just knockback, his legs were extremely broken and he had to spawn a new body afterwards.

I didn't say he didn't have defenses ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Let’s try to keep it chill, I’d rather this not turn into a stereotypical HST debate with a lot of yelling.

Lmao alright

 

[LordTracer]

I would need context on those characters.
Killer B got hit with an explosion, and it was so bad that he couldn't maintain his mode. Even if he gets the dura, unless someone caused similar damage that that explosion did (no one even made him bleed), then they shouldn't scale.

And isn't losing limbs just DC instead of AP?

The Five-Tails made him bleed though.

And I guess? Idk, DC isn’t really used here.

A lot of ppl say others are out of chakra. Itachi said Sasuke was out then he did Kirin.

Even if he isn’t straight up at 0, Gyūki would still be extremely low on chakra.

He just had access to more water, and regardless that would just make a new key "more water for water boy". I never said he wasn't amped, I'm just saying, it's suigetsu.

Suigetsu could get a tier for when he absorbs more water. And it being Suigetsu doesn’t matter when it isn’t his base self, it’s a much stronger version of him, so not an anti-feat. And also Suigetsu got knocked unconscious by it, sooooooo.

He was in much pain.

Yeah, being in an explosion tends to do that. Being in pain doesn’t mean your durability doesn’t scale. I can give some examples of characters on this wiki that have feats where they were screaming and in pain as their durability justification if you want.

It didn't explode in his mouth.
He formed the bijuudama in front of his mouth, then the wave fired outside outside of his mouth towards suigetsu.

I meant when he caught Kurama’s Bijuudama and ate it. B even says that he contained the explosion.

I didn't say he didn't have defenses ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Well then it isn’t isn’t showing Bijuudama blasts being weaker than the bombs, especially when Oro still got broke silly OwO

 

[Metalija]

About Hashiramas wood golem. That golem is Low 6-B not because he caught a TBB from the Nine Tails, but because it can fight on par with Madaras Perfect Susanoo, which M3X recently calced to be Low 6-B. So base Hashiramas wood style is Low 6-B and Shinsuusenju would be 6-B due to fighting against Majestic Attire Susanoo. Now for his physical AP, if you guys disagree that it is 6-C maybe we can say that he is at least High 7-A (1 gigaton, above SM Naruto and CM2 Sasuke) and multiply it by 10 for his SM?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

About Hashiramas wood golem. That golem is Low 6-B not because he caught a TBB from the Nine Tails, but because it can fight on par with Madaras Perfect Susanoo, which M3X recently calced to be Low 6-B. So base Hashiramas wood style is Low 6-B and Shinsuusenju would be 6-B due to fighting against Majestic Attire Susanoo. Now for his physical AP, if you guys disagree that it is 6-C maybe we can say that he is at least High 7-A (1 gigaton, above SM Naruto and CM2 Sasuke) and multiply it by 10 for his SM?

That would be a good compromise if the current debate goes nowhere or is rejected outright.

 

[Omimi]

But Madara's Ribcage > Ultra Big Ball Rasengan

Ultra Big Ball Rasengan actually force madara to use humanoid susanoo

The wood dragon was draining Kurama's power. It wasn't just holding him down, it was making him weaker, so that doesn't count. We see Killer B destroy in the same scan I sent rip through it because it stopped absorbing his power, so the only counter to that, no.

So what I need from someone ASAP is to prove that a non exploding Bijuudama = an exploding bijuudama. If you can accurately prove this, then Naruto's striking strength would equal 6-C which would correlate to Madara, which I know for a fact that that's not the case.

here u go

PS sowrd+tbb (without exploding) destroying hashirama's buddha hands

 

[KingTempest]

Ultra Big Ball Rasengan actually force madara to use humanoid susanoo

He used the ribcage first. He didn't need to use the humanoid Susanoo, he just wanted to so he could fight the masses.

here u go

PS sowrd+tbb (without exploding) destroying hashirama's buddha hands

I didn't say enhanced bijuudama. I said bijuudama, which means the regular mass of chakra, not with a sword inside of it.

We already established that the Evil Disturbance Waltz >>>>>>>> Exploding Bijuudama >>> Non exploding Bijuudama. The evil disturbance waltz went through a 5 layer rashomon while a regular non exploding bijuudama got caught by a regular wood golem.

 

[Padaruyos]

About Hashiramas wood golem. That golem is Low 6-B not because he caught a TBB from the Nine Tails, but because it can fight on par with Madaras Perfect Susanoo, which M3X recently calced to be Low 6-B. So base Hashiramas wood style is Low 6-B and Shinsuusenju would be 6-B due to fighting against Majestic Attire Susanoo. Now for his physical AP, if you guys disagree that it is 6-C maybe we can say that he is at least High 7-A (1 gigaton, above SM Naruto and CM2 Sasuke) and multiply it by 10 for his SM?

Should that Low 6-B rating be given an "At least" since Madara did it casually?

 

[Metalija]

The evil disturbance waltz went through a 5 layer rashomon while a regular non exploding bijuudama got caught by a regular wood golem.

Im preety sure that wood golem is waaay stronger than 5 layer rashomon.

 

[LordTracer]

Minor thing, but the Perfect Susano’o calc is Low 6-B+, not just Low 6-B.

 

[Padaruyos]

Minor thing, but the Perfect Susano’o calc is Low 6-B+, not just Low 6-B.

If that's the mountain slicing feat then it might be even higher since Madara did it very casually.

 

[Metalija]

It could be, but we don't know exactly how casual it was.