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Undertale ( Sans, Undyne, Mettaton NEO, etc. ) Revision

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Anderson2003

Anderson2003

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Started in the Sans vs Crash thread while we were debating.

1. Karmic Retribution. When was this hinted at or shown? From what I've seen, it is merely assumption due to Sans' judging the player ( Chara ) at the end. It's nothing else other than assumption, unless one actually shows solid evidence it exists, It remains speculation.

2. Soul Manipulation. While it is shown that a SOUL is a important factor on Undertale, the way the monsters "manipulate" them is left to be assumed. I, personally, never saw Undertale as a monster controlling your soul and attacking it directly as Soul Manipulation such as Shang Tsung's. And if we do assume it is Soul Manipulation, then every and each human in a 21st century-esque time would have Durability to it, since we humans fought monsters in a war and won against them?

There is too much to be assumed and too little shown. Most of everything related to Undertale is assumption. Even Chara turning into a deity of some sort is absolute assumption and deserves to be revised.
 
1. Karmic Retribution has its initials next to the health bar during Sans' boss battle. Pretty sure it does exist.

2. Your soul moves in the direction that Sans has his hand flinging towards, whether it's to the sides, up, or down. He's throwing you into bones. Humans only beat Monsters because their souls are so immensely more powerful, not because soul manupilation didn't work or stopped working.
 
Every monster have the power to absorb souls. When Asriel first did that, he was only a child. Also, Sans has Blue Mode, that turns your Soul Blue, and lets him throw you wherever he wants.
 
"Karma cursing through your veins" was removed..

Absorb, yes. But it is assumed that every single monster can manipulate and hurt souls and every human is resistant to it and that all attacks are this. And by that same logic, attacks mentioned to directly hurt ones body and not soul, but cause damage to you ingame are now attacks directly to the soul, or it is what is assumed, apparently.

Never implied that it is actually a buff to Sans and that it makes him stronger when he fights a "evil" being.
 
Anderson2003 said:
"Karma cursing through your veins" was removed..
Click to expand...
Where did you get this from? The closest I can find is that "Doomed to death by KARMA!" is obscenely hard to trigger due to programming error.
 
Huh... I dont think I ever saw it. And trust me, I've beat Sans enough times to know.

Little does it matter, however. There is absolutely NO PROOF it makes him stronger. In fact, I could even say it doesnt matter even who his opponent is, since Flowey said he had already fought Sans on ocasion and Sans gave him lots of trouble. We dont know circumstance, but since Flowey changed to bad after losing purpose and wishing death, I can do the same and assume it wasnt related to retribution for his actions.

See how its easy to assume? Show me SOLID EVIDENCE that Sans gets stronger due to his opponents actions and show me evidence that physical attacks from Undertale's verse ignore logic and are actually directioned to one's soul ( "I'm.. out of knives" "These are the bones I threw at you during our battle" yadda yadda ).
 
I don't have an opinion on KR, but at the start of the game when you first meet Flowey, he says See that heart? That is your SOUL, the very culmination of your being! Since it is very clear he isn't lying due to the events before the Asgore fight, that makes it very plain that all the characters are attacking the Soul. To my knowledge all enemies, including Mad Dummy, attack it, and nothing else. Hell, Tsunderplane flies into it at Massively Hypersonic speeds with the energy to blow up a small tow, but it still lives. But they also affect the physical world, as we see from Undyne breaking a table in half so that you don't get up from your chair during your "date", so I guess they just do both.
 
Anderson2003 said:
snip
Click to expand...
The trigger occurs depending on how much KR you have stored at the moment the text pops up. "Doomed to death by KARMA!" is so hard to achieve because, iirc, it requires an obscene percentage of your health to consist of KR damage without you being dead.

I don't think anyone said it makes him stronger. Sans himself never changes. He's just killing you with karma, which the text states. You/Frisk/Chara at that point have a lot of karma built up, going around violently murdering everyone.

As DerpCity said, we're pretty explicitly told by Flowey what your SOUL is, we see attacks and abilities that have a direct effect on your SOUL, and also see these attacks affect things in the physical world.
 
Considering how KR is measured by the damage you're going to take due to poison ( or so I believe ), I say its nothing. I say its merely how closer you are to a slow death and how that is your "Karma Level". How much you've paid for your crimes through Sans' ability.

Yes, they constatly mention similar things. "Broly would still die in a single hit thanks to Sans' KR (because Broly also likes to bulldoze through his enemies a lot)"

  • Karmic Retribution: Karmic Retribution causes Sans' opponent to take increasing amounts of incremental damage depending on how many people they have hurt whenever the are struck by one of Sans' attacks. It essentially functions as poison damage for one's soul.
It doesn't depend on how many people you've hurt. Thats never said. Never stated.. Never hinted at. From Undertale's wiki:

All of Sans's attacks use KARMA (KR). This effect drops invincibility frames to zero [...]. It also applies a 'poison' effect to all attacks [...]

Yes, Flowey does tell what our SOUL is. Yet we are attacked by knives, spears, bones that are thrown directly into our body, etc. and they hit our soul instead? Like Flowey said, our SOUL is the very culmination of our being. When WE get hurt, it should get hurt too, wouldnt it? Since it is us, by every mean. This is my assumption versus yours. Its easy to assume things without evidence.

I am, by no means, trying to repeat what I said constantly. So, I'll just do this instead: SHOW ME. Bring evidence, proof and slam that hammer Guilty if Im wrong.

Two things are assumed here: That Karmic Retribution gets stronger due to how bad people are ( it doesnt ) and that every and each attack is directed to our SOUL ( if any actually does, it certainly shouldnt be all of them ). Both are constantly said out loud without any evidence...
 
Again, I'm not going to talk about KR because I have no opinion either way.

First: All magical attacks in Undertale target the SOUL. We know the SOUL is a different thing from our physical body because of the SOULs that King Asgore keeps in their little cages in the overworld of the game, where our physical body is, and from watching the deaths of both Asgore and Toriel: Their SOULs persist after death for a short period due to their existence as Boss Monsters, but as we see they are unstable and shortly explode (well, Flowey kills Asgore's). Also, when we first meet Flowey, he makes note of the SOUL as if its something we don't know about, and then tells you to grab all the friendliness pellets with your soul, and in the Undyne chase sequence, Undyne throws spears at you, but you don't take damage unless your SOUL gets hit during the attack that follows. Also, enemies only do damage if they hit your SOUL, which we've established as a different entity.

Second: Attacking the SOUL effects you on a physical and soulular level. We know this very plainly because of Toriel, who if you meet her at her house with 1 HP, she can tell just by looking that you've been hurt and says something along the lines of "Who did this? You will get an apology." (Unfortunately, the video I watched with this was taken down at some point, so I can't link it) Not only that, but we know that their physical attacks can target the physical world, through Undyne blowing up that poor table in her home when you try to get out of your chair. But the biggest evidence for magic attacks harming the soul is Mad Dummy himself: He tells you outright that you can't hurt him, a incorporeal ghost failing to possess a dummy, with physical attacks. The only other type of attack in Undertale we know of are magic attacks, which are what drive him off. Sure, we have blue and white attacks, but they both fall under magic attacks. Guess what those same tears have to hit in order to harm Frisk? The SOUL.
 
PERFECT, BRAVO. I salute you, my friend. You have explained with EVIDENCE I know is true due to playing the game and have proved your point. Its not that I doubted it and was against it 100% though.. I just required a bit of insight.

Thank you for clearing that up. Now, all needed is proving Sans' KR acts the way many assumed it does in battles and I sincerely doubt anyone will be able to prove so due to the lack of evidence or suggestion. I shall wait for now, but thank you, DerpCity. The truth should always surface.
 
Isn't Sans KR weird just because it's sin dependent?


Imagine a person killing hundreds of peeps(but not an entire species or civilisation) suffers less than Frisk/Chara xD
 
I'm pretty sure that KR doing more damage depending on how many you have killed is fanon

Not evidenceless fanon, but still fanon that is never confirmed.
 
Not evidenceless? Provide them to me, them! Otherwise, its false and baseless conjecture as I've mentioned before. In NO SENTENCE, no situation, we can assume things as facts. There is no evidence that suggests Sans' KR gets stronger due to the opponent's sins.

It is fanon. Fanfiction. A imaginary tale with the same credit as r34 of Sans and Papyrus. Meaningless.
 
Exactly. And yet it is assumed without any SOLID EVIDENCE. Of course Sans judges you, talks about your sins, yadda yadda. BUT HE NEVER ONCE SAYS HIS ABILITY GETS STRONGER DUE TO THIS. It is never confirmed or suggested. Sans was just pissed at you.

And I quote: "Karmic Retribution causes Sans' opponent to take increasing amounts of incremental damage depending on how many people they have hurt whenever the are struck by one of Sans' attacks."

Even when Undertale's own wikia states nothing, for some reason this has been invented for Sans's character.
 
Anderson2003 said:
Even when Undertale's own wikia states nothing, for some reason this has been invented for Sans's character.
Click to expand...
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The wiki may not be the best place to research those characters, but whatever.
 
Fair point.

I've checked the dialogue, he explains EXP means Execution Points and that you will pay for every and each one of them that you acquired. Once again, never indicates his Karmic Retribution does more damage to you because of it. Just Sans telling you you've killed too much and now you'll get dunked on.
 
Exactly. But that does affect some results of his battles..

I believe it was the Broly fight that was decided that "KR would instakill him so Sans stomps" or similar. This has caused too much pain for my eyes for me not to care.

So, for the sake of sportsmanship, shouldn't his battles be at least reopened or restarted?

EDIT: On second thought, just do what you guys usually do. I'm not staff or anything, dont mind me on that.

EDIT2: Actually, he can cause tons of damage in seconds but it wont be like "Once he touches (include name here), he's down for the count since he kills poeple". It will be more like "Oh yeah, he will slowly die if he gets hit since thats what his ability does also he'll die certainly due to 2-B damage..."
 
Looking back, all fights were decided because of this. "Hey, this guy kills, he gets rekt" is in ALL of his battles. ALL OF THEM. Its always a factor, always such a big thing because if the opponent is a good guy, he won't get "oneshotted" when there's NO EVIDENCE that suggests such a thing...

So many battles decided ( or at least taken into consideration ) due to an assumption that is false and has no evidence pointing towards it is maddening.
 
So you want them all redone, this time under the assummption he just nulls soul resistance or does 2-B levels of soul damage?
 
Well, this is step 1.

Step 2 is remembering that Chara only goes ApeShit at the end of the game when she takes full control, causes BLANK number of 9s in damage and crashes the game. She/He isnt 2-B all the game. He is like Frisk, evolving due to determination reaching his 2-B maximum at the very end through means of Determination. Frisk does so because of his desire to save his friends and refusing death. Chara does so by killing everyone and wishing to do so more and more like a virus.

Also, he doesn't null Soul Resistance. Otherwise, you'd die in one hit anyways since it would be pure Soul Manipulation and that is means to oneshot ( right? Read that somewhere here in VS Wiki ). He can only do 1 damage and yet he has to hit you again once you have 1 health.

If the Chara that fought Undyne is truly 2-B, then they wouldn't have stood a chance. Chara, Omega Flowey and Frisk are all around the same level and they all are immensely more powerful than any other monster at their peak. It doesnt add up. If she truly was 2-B at that fight and against Sans, it would be more like Omega Flowey and less like Frisk's normal adventure, right?

It is weird and could be ironic and considered baseless conjecture, but Chara does say that:

- "Now, we have reached the absolute".

A bit of interpretation and you figure out they werent at absolute before. Only at maximum levels of EXP could we truly revive Chara and her Determination with OUR power, as he says. In fact, Undyne the Undying being considered "Likely 2-B" is laughable as she gives you even less EXP than Mettaton NEO, being considerably weaker than 2-B beings ( Compare her to Photoshop Flowey. I dare ya. I DOUBLE dare ya ).

But that's for another day, isn't it?
 
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